Why did the soviets invade communist hungary?

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So they were socdems with hammers and sickles.

I don't know if that is true. It is a very easy criticism to make of unitary states like the Soviet Union. However, I believe such attacks to be anachronistic. There is simply no way to organize workers effectively and prepare for the inevitable counterattack by bourgeois reactionaries other than creating a state and formal army.

It is important to remember there was not a normal year in the Soviet Union. They were constantly under attack by western powers intent on undermining their position. I am not excusing the excesses of the Soviet state, of which there are many. I am simply saying that your impressions of them are uninformed at best and ill-intentioned at worse.

Are you pol? Are these things not necessary for human flourishing? Isn't this what we are fighting for?

See>>1306846
It was not a workers' movement but a student one. There is a major difference.

We are fighting to seize the means of production, not to make capitalism comfortable or give it a facelift.

We fighting for worker ownership of the means of production. Not "You go to gulag if you speak against the party and also they are super rich but at least their's healthcare!!!!"

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You don't really buy into the fiction that the Soviet Union was "state capitalist" do you? Do you think there was a bourgeoisie exploiting the surplus value of workers in the Soviet Union? Do you think that bureaucrats supplanted the bourgeoisie in the role of exploiters? The Soviet Union certainly did have problems with too much bureaucracy but like you seem to be implying. Do you know what dissents said when coming to the West? That there was too much bureaucracy in the West!

Are you ironically shit posting or do you want to make a point?

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*but NOT like you seem to be implying

The abolition of the market is necessary to destroy capitalism. It is very naive to think that you can build socialism without abolishing exchange. It sounds like you are not very well acquainted with Marxist theory.

Why not have coops that take orders from the central planners?

Are you? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Ignoring the fact that there were co-ops in the Soviet Union kolkhozy, you need a state to orchestrate supply and distribution chains for the heavy industrial goods which made up the bulk of the Soviet economy. I suggest reading pic related.

Oh I see, you're just retarded.

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Why do most people seem to completely forget this when they whine about "central planning" in the USSR? Not just the kolkhozy, but sovkhozy systems of production were the dominant form, and both were market-distributing organs. Yugoslav "market socialism" was based on carbon copying those kolkhoz-sovkhoz systems.

Relevant reading on Russian economy: marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/index.htm

Relevant reading on Yugoslav "market socialism": insurgentnotes.com/2013/10/yugoslav-self-management-capitalism-under-the-red-banner/

I'll admit I do not know very much about decentralized planning but it sounds infeasible.
That's how I suppose things would work under a decentralized planning structure as well, no? How can you abolish the market without organized planning? Wouldn't decentralized factories still be producing to fulfill quotas that the planners decide are necessary?
Trade unions within the USSR were not bargaining over wages, they existed to keep discipline and morale up.

In a decentralized planned economy workers would just get orders on what they need to make and it would be up to them how to make it. They wouldn't need the state manager to come in and tell them what to do.

Fuck you, you opportunist trash. Like all shit swallowing communist you can't take a legitimate discussion of serious fundamental flaws with your erection so you call everyone a liberal. Trash.

They were undergoing a reactionary revolution, so other workers had to step in and put a stop to it

Because the USSR were a bunch of crab mentality pussies who decided they should be the only instigators of "socialism"

Fuck the USSR.

Is this just a buzzword for "everything I don't like"?

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Heres a fact, the USSR was a fucking shithole that was never close to socialism

Oh and it collapsed due to corruption and anarchism

Stay mad tankiddie

To keep Soviet hegemony alive in Warsaw pact, to defend their shield of puppet states against west.
Very pragmatic solution for the times.

Yes.

Because people who spout on about 'imperialism' are pretty fucking imperialist themselves.

Because they were trying to do real socialism, not state capitalism dressed in red.

which is why they were lynching actual socialists in the street.

No. What we are fighting for is communism.

They weren't.

> communist

Oh, my. I guess we'll have to accept National-"Socialists" as well.

Basically this. The Soviets didn't want to lose infulence on the listed regions.

Nope, they were democratic socialists.

Workers also joined and started organizing themselves. Students were only the spark. The establishment was hated because it was dictatorship.

Tell me more, I want to hear about this. I have a feeling that "lynching actual socialists" was just propaganda.

Haha, what? You guys still spewing out that meme? Ukrainian Free Territory was a crypto-AnCap society.

Judging by your flag you only like them because they had cool ebul black flags.

Are you going to claim that Communists weren't real Socialists and deserved to die anyway?

Nope. I'm claiming that they were state capitalists and repressed people. They didn't deserve to die. If they were also socialists, they could "help the revolution" by accepting the independent worker councils and their critique. Reforms didn't succeed so revolution ("counter-revolution") happened.

This. Fuck post Lenin Russia.

Fuck off. You support Fascist coup.

Thousands of people had got murdered by "former" Horthysts, streets had been turned into some sick horror show within a week, actual worker councils had been dispersed by force, and Liberals had taken over by force.

We had seen Maidan already. Only anarkiddies - who can't distinguish between Socialists and Fascists - would ever defend this shit.

By murdering Communists and Jews. By putting Horthysts in charge. By privatising state property. By liberalizing economy. By removing Soviet presence and inviting NATO troops.

What else did I miss?

No quotes. 1956 was textbook Counter-Revolution. Hungarian Vendee.

And - no. I don't care if reforms do not succeed. Even if Fascists gain popularity, you still have to murder them.

The photos display people from ÁVO or ÁVH. Soldiers, the government's men. They shot first (according to books and wikipedia too).

My grandfather was among them. He was a socialist, distributing bread among the starving and the revolutionaries. There could be rightists among them, too, but most were just critical of the government.

Right-wingers are trying hard to steal the revolution from the Left, but no success.

Only retards confuse criticism of the left with fascism.

Clarification: the killed people are from ÁVO, not the people standing next to the corpses.

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I sure am persuaded now.

Btw, Poland attacked Germany in 1939. According to some books, at least.

Because if you serve in army as an officer under Horthyist regime - and then proceed to fight Soviet Union with other officers, spouting Fascist and Nazi propaganda - being supported by Horthy himself - it's hard to classify you as anything other than Horthyst.

Of the National variety, I take it.

Backbone of uprising consisted out of underground cells of right-wingers: mainly confirmed Horthyst officers and gendarmes leading them, and the majority - the ones that will be doing the shooting - were students who didn't know shit.

Rebels also got support from the West: both money and weapons, not to mention propaganda. IIRC even Franco and the supposed Emperor of Austria were making some positive noises about Budapest. Such progressive company. I guess, cardinal and the uber-Capitalist Esterhazy were also Left.

Yes. Tanks rolled in and kicked their Nazi ass. For some reason, actual Hungarian army did not even try to protect Glorious Counter-Revolution. Nor did the workers.

If murdering people is criticism, then why are you whining about Nazi shits getting criticised themselves?

They thought Hungary was about to leave the Warsaw Pact

Propaganda.

Western media doesn't want people to think that there was anything beyond "imperialist" interests, which is why tanks entering Budapest (Nov 4) are tied to Nagy's declaration that Hungary is leaving Warsaw Pact (Nov 3).

IRL decision to beat the shit out of Nazis had been made earlier. Soviets decided to act 4 days before Nagy declaration (Oct 31), after murders of Hungarian Communists (Oct 30) - which were assisted by Nagy government (it ordered everyone - both police, army, and all volunteer groups to stand down and not come to help to the besieged, claiming that others were coming to help) - and after many similar incidents, when government was recalling troops that were fighting off Fascists (Csepel during Oct 29-30, for example) to help Fascists. At the time Nagy was still pretending to be Communist and made no noises about leaving Warsaw pact.

And then there was official confirmation on international level (Nov 2-3) with Romanian, Bulgarian, Czechoslovak, and Yugoslav leaders (IIRC, even Mao) voicing their support and offering their assistance (Bulgarians volunteered, not sure about Tito; and Czech were already "invading" Hungary's border regions at this point - Nograd county) in armed suppression of counter-revolution.

Hungary was a total mess, with gangs of "Revolutionaries" running amok, robbing and murdering population, with government using every excuse to suppress or destroy anything Socialist - while openly lying to everyone, and with local population asking for help. That's why tanks entered Hungary.

Because they wanted actual communism and not just porky dressed in red.

t. Hungarian

Which is why students under command of former Nazis were killing workers, cardinal was proclaiming denationalization of confiscated property, and Esterhazy was organizing right-wing militia to subdue peasants.

Brilliant.

I would imagine it was motivated at least in part by the fact some parties in the West were clamoring to intervene in Hungary and that Eisenhower had tanks in Austria gassed and on standby (iirc).

Mostly true.

When Soviets entered Budapest, counter-revolutionaries were told by their leaders (rebel newspapers) that Americans can't intervene until elections (Nov 6) are over, but they will if Budapest can hold out that long. Which is how many got persuaded to fight against Soviets in Nob 4 and resistance started collapsing after Nov 7 - West was simply using events as anti-Soviet propaganda.

Workers council?

Don't you think that maybe you are the liberal? Also why are you thinking that every piece of soviet propaganda is unquestionable truth?

Was Nagy secretly a Fascist pretending to be a Communist or just a Revisionist?

You make me laugh Stalintripfag.

Rev. prime minister (long time cominternist turned council communist) Imre Nagy and his gvt. wanted independence from Warsaw Pact and Russian economic area, and Soviets had to stop this.

I rely on a specific description of Fascism. Events in Budapest of 1956 fit it to the letter: open reactionary terrorism. Only dictatorship part is missing, but I'm not claiming that Imre Nagy established Fascist regime. It was Fascist uprising.

Liberalism is pretty specific thing too. As long as you don't use American newspeak.

I don't. But this doesn't make bullshit as valid as the version supported by several independent sources.

How would I know? Depending on circumstances, consequences of political opportunism can be no different from deliberate support of Fascism.

Nagy had allied himself with Fascists at this point already and directly participated in murders of many Hungarian Communists - and was pretending he didn't. I'd say this counts as "secretly not being Communist".

Shall we deduce the reason?

students were just patrolling in the Revolutionary Guard tbh., the real rebels were workers, and their officers were mostly manual laborers themselves, many of them Holocaust survivor Jews, but almost all of them Marxists at some level (like Iván-Kovács or Nickelsburg or Angyal) or anti.Fascists like (József Dudás, who had a literal anti-Nazi partisan group in 1944-45 in Budapest, and that is a big deal, as there were not many of those).
The Hungarian People's Army was also purged of pre-1945 officers in 1945-46, and then even of Social Democrat officers in 1950, so they were literally all Communists, deemed trusted enough by the Rákosi regime.

This Fascists and students propaganda is the greatest load of Red-Putinist bullcrap i have ever heard. If most of their propaganda is this shit, they should be glad about how retarded their adversaries and Western population are.

Because stalin was a cunt.

you forget about the Brioni negotiations, NATO supposedly agreed to stay the fuck away from those, and lent a free hand to Marshal Tito to deal with this shit, as they were caught off guard by the Budapest Uprising while dealing with the Suez Canal bullshit.
Tito has negotiated with the Soviets in the presence of Mao's emissaries in Yugoslavia, and convinced the Soviets to appoint Kádár and keep Rákos's loser lot away from Hungary, which was the greatest thing a big world leader has ever done for my godforsaken little country to be honest.

this was mostly a deterrent so the Soviets won't get all trigger happy. so was the bullshit propaganda about a UN intervention in Hungary perpetrated through Radio Free Europe, that kept the fighting afloat as long as the above mentioned Brioni negotiations concluded.
but there is no proof that NATO circles really wanted to intervene, far from that. during the presidential elections, Democrats accused Eisenhower and the GOP of trying to whip up an open war with the Soviets and they opposed this, Eisenhower could not risk to be seen as a warmonger during the campaign.

Not all of them. But I'll grant you that many students abandoned rebels when Fascism got too obvious. Of course, by this time prisons were open and proper gangsters could replace them.

Oh, come on.

> The Dudás group also became known for the campaign of terror it unleashed against members of Hungary's AVH Secret Police, lynching or otherwise executing offenders on sight. The activities of the group went to such an extreme that other revolutionaries began arresting AVH officers for their own protection.
> He continued publishing his newspaper criticizing the Nagy government until his own armed men dismissed him on 3 November, and he was arrested by government forces for acts attributed to him, or rumors of such acts (an attack on the Foreign Ministry; looting of the National Bank). On 4 November he was wounded and taken to a hospital.
Did someone forget to edit 1984-pedia or something?

This doesn't get any better.

Khrushchev was purging Stalinists from governments of Easter Europe and USSR since 1953. One of the reasons Nagy got so much leeway was because he was expected to remove Rakosi and the rest of his faction from power. I.e. uprising was in no small part influenced by Moscow meddling in Hungarian politics to remove Rakosi and Stalinists.

So - no. Rakosi wasn't going anywhere. He was doomed to spend the rest of his life under house arrest the moment he left Hungary.

As for Kadar - I'd like to see source on this. Kadar established his anti-Nagy government before Soviets started talks with Yugoslavia (Nov 1) and Yugoslavia got in contact with Kadar when talks were already finished (Nov 4), no?

I'm pretty certain Khrushchev would've appointed the most popular - and non-retarded - politician with noticeable anti-Stalinist attitude.

so did slave owners. They sure did love their workers.

Actually, there is proof of the opposite. US never intended to lend any support to Socialist Hungary - if declassified documents of National Security Council are to be trusted, of course.

Picrelated (page 8 in July 13, 1956 National Security Council Discussion of Policy Toward Eastern Europe)
Source: digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/114691

this is kind of contemplating supporting the imre nagy movement in literally the last weeks of First Secretary Gerő.
At the time it seemed like Imre Nagy could pull off a peaceful return to power, but instead the Revolution of October 23 happened, that caught Nagy off guard and could barely adapt to it.
So this is i think proof of soft power considerations, but by far nod and indication of seriously considering help for and armed revolution.

Yes

i love a tankie cracking wikipedia open, to get his historical analysis.
AVH was a betrayer of people, everyone hated them, as they terrorized workers, and destroyed their communities, it was right that they got the people's razor in lynchings. there were many innocent people falling victim to this (the only large-scale lynching agaisnt AVH officials was October 30 on Köztársaság tér - now Pope Whoever Square…) as Soviet loyalist party officials dressed some people up in AVH uniforms.
The revolutionary Nagy government condemned this massacre, arrested some of the known culprits, and put them in custody. Many rebel group leaders, like Angyal, Kádár's friend, have put special guards in front of the houses of known party and secret police members to prevent their lynching.
Dudás was more unhinged than most of them, but even he was not commanding lyncings on unarmed AVH officers, he fought off AVH snipers though. Snipers were of coutse killed on the spot, but that warrants no further explanation.
Read more about the Brioni talks here, pp. 213. books.google.hu/books?id=EdWI_oSbfl0C&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=brioni talks kádár&source=bl&ots=_siWqGR-9R&sig=8ThdQmCWh9sgyVqu6AL0wP1CXik&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUlLmGju3RAhXJvBQKHXtzBvIQ6AEIMjAF#v=onepage&q=brioni talks kádár&f=false,

immediately after that, the Soviets too kKádár and let him back on 4th November, by then Kádár has agreed to set up the new Soviet puppet gvt and party (Revolutionary Government of Workers and Peasants and MSZMP).
Kruschchev wanted to appoint hardliner Spanish Civil War veteran Ferenc Münnich, and Chinese envoy Lin Piao demanded large-scale retributions, Tito warned of the immeasurable consequences of overreaction and pushed trhorugh Kádár. Yuri Andropov was in accordance with him. So basically Krushchev wanted more harldiner elements to get back to Hungary, and the only reason for that not happening is Tito shutting it down with Andropov.

also kek'd really hard on this now…good times!

While the USSR was imperfect of many ways, this is a pretty solid defense of this particular incident. Hungary was not about to achieve some magic true communist workers paradise, they were reverting back to liberalism. While I do oppose soviet opposition to other workers' movements, I have no problem with them intervening against liberals.

Stop trying to make a whore out of Rosa. She was not advocating Market Socialism of any kind.

I thought you stopped pretending it was Revolution.

Why aren't you using "bloodbath" instead of "soft power"?

It is quite plainly stated that any support would be provided only for counter-Revolution. The one that will put workers under control of their masters. Not Socialist movements of any kind.

Yeah. "Peaceful protesters" all over again. Kill yourself.

It was proven that they organized it.

Stop cherry-picking. Most were murdering people to push denationalization through and get their confiscated property, or to get in power, or just for the fun of it.

Was White Guard Marxist? Or, maybe Sword and Cross?

Your propaganda pamphlet is behind paywall.

Who arranged access to time travel machine?

Meeting happened in November 2-3, while Ferenc Munnich was part of Kadar's anti-Nagy government since the November 1 declaration, with Kadar being Prime Minister there, not Munnich.

Did you inherit additional chromosome from your grandpa or is that your personal achievement?