Die Linke Controversy

That Jacobin article is fucking trash, the facebook comments on it are pretty good though:
facebook.com/jacobinmag/posts/1616278991732129
Pretty much everyone calling them and liberals out.

Sure I can.
t. Donald Trump

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Also imagine your an arab which option sounds better
1) Leftists take control in the West, help you develop your economy and political institutions, stop shoveling neo-liberal economic policies down your throats, stop destroying popular movements on behalf of global capital

2) Leftists flounder in obscurity (what will happen if they go along with current immigration policies), sure youre family and friends will still be raped by global capital. But at least you can be crammed into camps in a foreign land with that doesnt provide you with a job or any sense of cultural belonging.

I normally like Jacobin a lot, but any article relating to the refugee crisis always has this kind of "open borders" or your a racist tone

Germany could take more refugees if Germany was better organized. But currently the organization of the refugee problem is weak, so I think there are too many refugees.

If Die Linke is the future of the left the left is doomed. Die Linke is full of government spies and when they get into power they roll over faster than the SPD.

Wagenknecht will do almost anything for power.

She's right

The Nazi admits it. Supporting open borders only hurts our cause.

Who would've thought

>>>/reddit/

That's literally their whole fucking argument too. I'm so sick of reading this shite I just skimmed through looking for an argument, because by this point you can pretty much predict the entire format of the article from how tired it is.
1) Someone has said don't let millions of people in
2) Anti-racists and other liberals are outraged because they lack any nuance
3) Racists also like this policy
4) This is why we shouldn't be racist
It's quite simply not debate material.

(You)

Tbh I don't know a lot about Die Linke, but I really think European Leftist parties need to take a tougher stance on immigration.

Public opinion, especially working class public opinion is firmly against current immigration levels.

They can adapt to political realities or cede their working class base to the far right.

You are absolutely right comrade. The article claims recognizing the obvious truth that terrorist attacks and open borders is racist. Their argument why? Its similar to what the AfD said.

Our official line should be

the only social problems caused by immigration are the social problems caused by capitalism (have a impoverished proletarian class) and by the Rights ability to capitalize from it
this is the only legitimate argument against immigration.

pretty much, there could be put enough economic pressure on saudi arabia to force them build palaces as accomodation.

I actually really like this. Why are random internet posters more politically adept than the "strategists" who run major left-wing parties.

Your whole comment not just the last part (sorry new at his)

I disagree, I think the stance needs to be smarter. Immigrants can benefit society, currently that is not the case.

Currently immigration levels are too high because immigration is used to expand the labour pool which suppresses wages.

Immigrants are used in the market against the homegrown working class. This is wrong, but the superficial problem are the immigrants.

Because they are getting fucked by the wage suppression.

Well the political reality is that the working class has been degraded in the last 30 years.

The industrial base in western countries has been exported and replaced with humiliating service jobs.

The left is superior to the right because it has a more nuanced approach to issues and tries to find the best possible solution to problems.

Simplifying the message so it can be on par with the right, might give the left a slight advantage on the propaganda front, but it degrades the lefts ability to criticize accurately.

Depends on the neighboring country. A country that has not provoked the crisis that has erupted in the first place and does not take part in the imperial exploitation of the Middle East should not have to bear the burden of housing refugees. Like I wouldn't ask of Armenia to accept refugees, but Turkey, Iran and Saudia Arabia definitely should (and do, somewhat).

Honestly it's so far beyond the realms of something that commies would actually do I often just dismiss it as "Don't start fucking wars in the middle east"
Also sometimes throw in a "Don't open your borders to people with no fucking papers"

Yes, America are well known for their fair and decent policy in the middle east. Absolutely none of this is their fault and it would be unjust to demand they cleaned up their own fucking mess and not be fat cunts for once.

When I say a tougher stance on immigration, this is what I mean. Adopting immigration policies like in my country Canada (skilled and english/french speaking get priority.

Here immigrants are better integrated and there is no significant political backlash against them unfortunately there is also zero class consciousness.

Shit, it says Armenia. Fuck!

die linke winning doesn't mean that amerika and other western nations won't continue toppling governments they don't like and allowing corporations to farm third world labor and engineer social crises for profit

i firmly believe we must work foremost to defeat global capitalism because at that point we won't have a refugee crisis but i also don't like lefties calling for intense border control when we havent defeated global capitalism.

Just watch me

Wagenknecht didn't say any of this shit. Holla Forums falls for liberal memes, again. Wagenknecht only said that Merkels austerity caused a reduction of staff in the police force, which enables terrorists like Amri to travel through Europe with 13 different identities and a criminal record.

again, canada cuck

Even if she had said it, so fucking what?

Mass immigration displaces the working class and is just another tool of porky.

Well Wagenknecht, made a pretty unreflected statement. She said Merkels policy towards refugees was partially responsible for the terror attack in Berlin.

Which is BS and just fuels nationalistic paranoia which is always ultimately used against the left.

I disagree with attacking her, but in Germany the left is fractured, and there are a lot of people running around here calling themselves leftist and they think everyone they disagree with is the next potential Hitler.

You'll get a Hitler if you keep being such pussies.

Well let's hope he doesn't have tiny hands.

There is literally nothing wrong with this. Mass immigration under capitalism will always be anti-worker and pro-porky. Maybe we can make accommodations for those fleeing special circumstances, but for only so long.

I'm serious, what the fuck is up with Merkels insane popularity amongst the left. This woman destroyed Greece. Merkel apologists amongst the left really rub me the wrong way.

Did you read her whole argument? She didn't say that Merkel imported terrorists to Germany, she said that a multitude of bad decisions of the German government led by Merkel contribute to a society that attracts Islamic terrorism. Such as funding the imperialism in Syria/Iraq and aiding in the destabilization of the Middle East

It's because many liberals and even some self-declared leftists assume Merkel was seemingly friendly towards refugees out of sheer human love and humanitarian understanding, not realizing the game that is really being played. Instead of listening to Wagenknecht and trying to understand her POV, they listen to public media outlets misrepresenting her and we end up with dipshits like

I have no fucking clue.

Its the same bullshit that gives Obama the same cult of personality where he seemingly does no wrong in the eyes of liberals yet is a giant shit show if you look into the details.

I really think that Merkels decision to have open borders was born out of sheer opportunism. I remember a few weeks before the refugee crisis in Hungary really started off, she told a Palestine girl who was growing up in Germany that she has to go back, the girl cried, and Merkel, the cyborg she is, came over as pretty awakard and inhumane as she was failing to console her. That sparked some sort of shitstorm and made her think she could gain popularity by suddenly claiming that there was a "humanist imperative" to open borders.

It really is no different from when she said that nuclear power plants are going to be closed by 2020 right after Fukishima. I think the difference is, that she evidently underestimated the insane impact her policy towards immigration was really going to have and then slowly backpedaled on it. Merkel herself I believe is completely free from any political vision or ideology, she is really just basing everything on some sort of liberal opportunism and reaps applause for that.

Obama at least had muh glass ceiling and was admittedly a sympathetic character which would veil his failure of a policy. Merkel comes over as a condescending post-ideological technocrat, what people like about her I will never understand.

To all people who assume the Left would have something to gain from embracing anti-immigration rhetoric: it won't work. Every time a political party tried to compete with nationalists when it comes to immigration, they ended up losing and allowing them to shift the Overton window further right in the process.

It is different, she and her party have already introduced and will introduce legislation that will turn refugees essentially in poor wage slaves. Such as if you refuse to be part of a state ordered apprenticeship, you will get eventually deported. Root of the issue is that the German job market is actually in need of about 2 million workers, but most of these open positions are in backwards villages in East Germany or some shit, where nobody wants to live. Turns out lots of refugees are being relocated there. What a coincidence.

Right now many refugees are being exploited already through what we call "1€-Jobs", they're getting paid 80 cents per hour for tedious work to "introduce" them to the German job market, a silly excuse for slavery, but the German people seem to buy it and many refugees are happy they're allowed to do anything at all.

I don't believe any of this has not been send by Merkel, the head of the party after all and the head of the German government, and the political image she construed is surely a nice bonus, but at the heart of the policy lies a strong economic interest, as usual.

Well for the refugees or migrants or whatever they are it's probably still a little better than at home to just make ends meet in Germany but that doesn't make it any better of course.

Germans are, sadly, one of the biggest classcucks. This is also party through constant propaganda in the media telling them how well we are doing and how much the unemployment rate sinks (only because they tinkered with the statistics). Another thing is that the assumed purchase power of the average German citizen is actually lower compared tot what is generally talked about considering our huge low wage sector - and the social security that exists is so badly designed that probably even a classical liberal government like the FPD would improve it because right now we have the worst kind of corporatism.

I agree.

I hope nobody here actually has a problem with refugees.

y tho

Fuck the refugees, stop being such a liberal.

Interestingly enough I have recently read (and heard through friends working in attitude research) that Germans at large are happy with where they are personally and their workplaces, but do believe that there is massive wealth inequality. They're able to see the big picture, but not how they as individuals need to take action.

Reactionary.

You're just a liberal fam, not worth making a point as soon as you frame it as people having a problem with the refugees rather than the fact they'll fuck things up for us by driving wages down, making the porkster a fortune and with the added potential to bring in draconian legislation and fuel the right while discrediting the left.

I wonder who is behind this post etc pp

Hmm gee gosh wow wonder who made this one.

Not that guy but being called a "liberal" for defending the right of asylum by holier-than-thou leftists has grown really tiring as of late. Denying shelter to people fleeing war and persecution is a reactionary stance no matter how you look at it, at least have the decency to admit it.

The lyrics of the Internationale speak of "the wretched of the world", not of "the wretched of my own country and fuck the rest, they might even lower our wages". It seems to me a lot of leftists have traded some of their basic human empathy for a badge that says "Look at How Not Liberal I Am".

Stop defending the actions of some neoliberal old boot who let millions of people in to solve a population crisis caused by their cowardly mismanagement of the EU's economy. The right to asylum isn't the right to cross as many countries as you want until you get to the one you've always wanted to move to.

epic simply epic

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They came *here* for competition, not comradeship, or they would have gone elsewhere. Why let people in who seek to use the system to their personal interests?

Fuck values. Values are bullshit. Interests.

>>>/reddit/

I never even hinted at that in my comment. You really need to stop strawmanning concern for refugees into support for Merkel.

You're not seeing it though, they're one and the same. Sure, I'm concerned for refugees, I don't wish them harm or anything like that but Merkel has deliberately done this to shit stir under the cause of concern for refugees. Their presence is going to fuel Islamic and right wing extremism in a feedback loop with each other and the liberals are going to shout racist, fascist etc at everyone that worries about this and the economic factors while simultaneously claiming to be the left. Merkel is fucking over us, the right, the refugees, the poor and pretty much everyone else except slave driving porkies and peak liberals, who are the two biggest shitters on the planet.
There is no solution to this problem because it has been created to fuck everyone over irreparably, the liberals need to be mercilessly bullied for it at every opportunity.

And strengthening the far right in this feedback loop is a humanitarian approach to the problem how exactly? Because that's all your doing with your rhetoric that boils down to "fuck refugees lmao dude".

You're the one strengthening it with your insistence the refugees should be here, driving the workers into the arms of the right to make yourself feel better about how morally virtuous you are. What's your idea, "solidarity with the refugees!"?

Where's your big picture, the one you're complaining about Germans not seeing? What's your plan, to go on a little march with the liberals? Hostility towards the crisis and the liberals who deliberately let it get this bad all the way through, from interventionist wars to a sudden growth of a conscience will break their back as a political force and deflect attention away from the refugees and onto them, unfortunately you don't get to wank yourself off incessantly over your principles, value and empathy while doing this but it's the one that stops their deflecting bullshit and brings it back to what it's all really about: money.

They should have taken refugees from refugee camps, not invited everyone with a brown face to turn up.
She's right, most are not legit and a small proportion are terrorists.

I'm sorry my dude, but he AfD isn't far right. They're just some national liberals, like the DVP in Weimar.

Yessss. She will become Nazbol.

That's where your wrong kiddo

*thatswhereyourewrongkiddo.jpeg*

Again, Our official line should be
The worst thing about immigration is right wingers getting power, so the left has to be the sensible but humane ones.

To what degree could leftypol be described as the alt-left?

this

Can someone explain clearly how open borders (i.e. mass refugee allowances) conflicts with far-leftism? I don't see many prerogatives that necessarily say immigration is bad, even en masse.
Not trying to debate, just curious as to your perspective.

This is good, we need to adapt some of the populist rights positions to be believable. Protectionism and anti-immigration policies are the future for leftist parties in Europe.

We need to rebuild the Berlin wall around Germany.

Most migrants come from archaic tribal societies and carry reactionary views with them. They perceive the liberal west as "already left" and are therefore naturally attracted to cultural and economic conservative standpoints - in other words, classcucks.

Socialism relies on a high level of education and literacy, it's empirically impossible to progress socialism in terms of workers control with a constant influx of uneducated migrants.

Also, social and cultural infrastructure can only integrate so many migrants at the time. If you have an uncontrolled stream of migrants, you'll end up having ghettos and create a brown underclass below the white proletariat which is toxic to the idea of a stateless society.

Lastly, because of the economic repercussions which naturally come with unchecked immigration, the migrants will be some sort of Lumpen and racial tensions are unavoidable which is also toxic towards socialism and one of the classic tools of the bourgeoisie to D&C the proletariat - this can be observed all over Europe right fucking now.

It's popular for a reason tho.

inb4 condescending spookposting from the intellectual heavyweights that are left/pol/

i have heard that she is a crypto-tankie.
Is this true?
Sounds too good to be true

She was a Stalin apologist when she was younger, she was too much of an edgy Stalinist even for the GDR.

She hides her power level now but I don't think she's full on ML anymore. From what I gather, she seems to gravitate to some sort of Market Socialism with a strong state.

she is one based milf

of course it's a socdem

Capitalists decrease wages, not immigrants. A false dichotomy.

Workers of the world unite. Not workers of a specific country/race/religion/ethnicity.

I'll trade the most dirt poor of refugees for chauvinist scumbags like you.

How is that LARPing? It's my belief

You can point out that Merkel did some things right with becoming a conservative

Here is what she said according to that article:

Is it just me or does this statement not look that controversial?

And to clarify, I'm actually pro-refugees, I just think Germany needs to be able to plan to handle its shit before taking on such a huge responsibility.

Traitor.
Where is the freikorps when you need them?

No it's not controversial, mostly just the media misrepresenting her. She said much more as well and criticized the German government in taking part in provoking the crisis in the Middle East in the first place and failing at controlling the refugee crisis through the EU.

Of course, you could plan for many things. Germany is huge and rich, we could probably take in millions more with a government that would actually be interested in helping refugees.

Have you ever fled from a warzone?

Fuck no. All men of fighting age need to be send back and economic "refugees" need to be refused outright. We don't need more people to feed into the environmentally destructive western economy.
Refugees need to go to and stay in surrounding countries. Like Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon. If those countries have trouble dealing with the influx I'm all for fully compensating the costs of taking care of refugees.

Jacobin wrote a defense of Die Linke. I thought it was pretty interesting.

jacobinmag.com/2017/01/die-linke-germany-sahra-wagenknecht-refugees-afd/

Stopped reading there. Peak liberalism.

Stop buying into right-wing bullshit

Dumb Kurdposter

Talking with Junger and the Nazbols.

Germans in this thread, I would like to hear your opinion

Who's going to be the next Chancellor of Germay?

I'm not a refugeenigger, but let's not kid ourselves, we all know it's gonna be another Christian/socdem flunkie.

Of course you can. I do it for a living.

Ignorant twat, they are already taking like 5 million of them.

You're thinking about the Gulf states, which are the cause of all this, but not neighboring states.

Merkel

Have you ever posted an argument in this thread?

None of the anti-refugees cunts have. All I've seen is:

Am I the only one who thinks the war has produced an absurd number of refugees? IIRC, the Russian Civil War, which was nothing short of cataclysmic, generated less than 1m out of a 150m+ population. In Syria, it's 5.8m out of 23m. A entire fucking quarter of the population fled the country.

People are more mobile, educated and aware of foreign countries in today's world

Russia is also a huge country so it could absorb internal displacement easier than a small country like Syria.

We shoot less people at the border. Also, people can see how much better everything is here now, and be directed by a modern network of smugglers, all made possible by modern mobile .devices

I never mentioned rape.

Do you know how many earth's we'd need if everyone were to consume like the average westerner?
Do you know why western politicians want more immigration?
Do you think it's reasonable for a grown adult man to abandon his country to islamists instead of fighting?

Mass immigration to the west is ecologically irresponsible and primarily a scheme for western corporations and banks to lower wages, increase consumption, prop up established parties and continue the cycle of debt slavery where everyone is indebted to financial institutions with no hope for social mobility.
If you think people like me are "reactionary" for opposing this, then so be it.

I wonder how much the number of refugees would have been if W. and N. Europe weren't so thirsty for immigrants.

He won't respond to this seriously, this is the only thread he won't run away from when challenged because he can fling shit around.

Many fewer. Merkel really did a number on us. But it was modern media that made her slip of the tongue slip out to the wider world.

probably merkle but maybe the afd surge happens after all

Then why bring up the fact that they're "men of fighting age"? That's discriminatory bullshit if you're refusing them.

I'm aware, but that doesn't mean we should let people rot in war-zones
To prop up their poorly designed welfare systems
No, but you can't force them to fight

Please turn a room in your house into a gulag and put yourself in it.

I'm not aware of any particular slip of the tongue. Link?

When she said, we can handle it, it was opening the floodgates, a totally wrong signal.

Then give them free stuff there, or in neighboring countries. You'd even be able to afford more of them before going broke since food and lodging is way, way, cheaper in Allahland than in Berlin or Paris. But of course you wouldn't support that since it was never really about helping but destroying.

you realise Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan have 4 million refugees between them? where does this stupid idea come from that they just want welfare? it's typical right wing scaremongering to distract workers while they actually dismantle the welfare state

Never understood this line of defense tbh

fucking liberals, they would rather have the problems of the world out of sight and out of mind so they can continue to shitpost.

How do you explain the fact that many liberals want the refugees to come in? And that many of the same NGOs calling for war intervention in Syria at the same time support refugees.

Reminder that large parts off the refugees coming to europa where part off their countries bourgeois.
So what you refugees welcome fags whant is basically giving gibs to porkies on the expence of the poor being stuck in underfunded refugee camps.
if you are pro-refugee you deserve to be slaughtered among your fellow liberals

Do you seriously believe your average fellow American has "comradeship" on his mind? Because if you do you're in for some nasty surprise.

[citation needed]

Besides, even if it were the case, they don't own anything anymore. Their current condition is that of proletarians.

Look at me, Holla Forums-senpai! Look at how not liberal I am!

That map is bullshit. Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey deal with a much higher share of refugees than Germany. There are more than 1,000,000 refugees living in overcrowded Lebanese camps right now.

Why do they go to France,Germany,Austria,Belgium etc?

You know they have to walk through peaceful nations before getting there right?

I bet you're American

We should send them to your neighborhood see how much you love the islam then

they come to germany because it sells itself as a tolerant generous beacon and they want a better life.

they want the benefits of capitalism, or social democracy

I love based burgerland. Fun to watch euros getting cucked over and over lmao

top tier shitpost

[citation needed]

I'm European.

I don't "love Islam", I am a strict secularist. Moreover, I believe the burden of dealing with refugees should be shared equally among and within European nations.

Not my comrade

Yup.

Don't agree with the sentiment but…. kek

It was a joke dummy

once bourgeois always bourgeois

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One bullet between the eyes and they are done.

-Holla Forums

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Yeah, it's not like Kropotkin was nobility or anything.

whats your point? he was an anarkiddie

They wouldn't have a better life in italy compared to the life they had before?

Why should we give to them when it comes at the cost of us?

Lenin was a hereditary aristocrat.

I don't believe it, the last piece of the puzzle! Sanders openly rejected free trade, Corbyn openly rejected free trade, but nobody has been willing to openly stand up to the second tine of the neoliberal spear, the immigration lobby. Now we have what we needed, the first mainstream leftist political entity to openly decry mass economic immigration!

CRUSH PC! CRUSH NEOLIBERALISM! CRUSH CAPITALISM!

The west taking in any refugees en-masse under any conditions whatsoever is morally, financially, and politically indefensible. 1st-world workers are far more productive than 3rd-world workers, while 3rd-world costs of living are far more affordable than in the 1st-world. Every refugee brought in to drive down 1st-world wages to live in the expensive 1st-world, is in the final sense a theft and murder against dozens or hundreds of their countrymen back home.

Our official line should be:

Quoted for truth

Pro-science environmentalist here, the prospect of a western lifestyle for all isn't actually that much of a pipedream. Consumption of resources like energy, water, and land are very inefficient, and through conservation alone could be slashed to single-digit percentages invisibly or without any difference in quality of life using technologies that have already been on the market for years or longer.

the good thing with Lenin was that he enabled Stalin to come to power. other than that Lenin was pretty mediocre. Stalin on the other hand was a man of the people.
i mean Lenin even wanted to implement Capitalism/nep for crying out loud

The least they could do is properly registering them all. Very strange assuming, we are ruled by a "law and order" party.
For a state that wastes million on surveillance for the sake of inner security, this is a pretty sloppy move.
Not to forget that despite the surveillance, somehow terrorists, who were all registered offenders nonetheless, still somehow manage to do terrorism and other crimes.
One managed to flee Germany and the EU and join up with ISIS despite wearing ankle monitor.

For a long time I thought our police and secret service was just inept. But this goes beyond ineptitude. I assume they are intentionally malice and they intentionally let these things escalate.

libruls hate Wagenknecht.
Be a little more considerate where you get your sources on her.

Illiterate monolingual ameriburger here, plox drop informative sources on Die Linke and this woman's stance within kraut politics.

*proceeds to kill 60 million of his people*

It's a social taboo to ask people how much they earn in this country so I'm not surprised most are seemingly "happy with where they are".

Sad to watch leftists get played so easily by the libtard propaganda machine. "Wagenknecht is literally AfD" seems to be have entered the collective consciousness at this point.

...

I have only German sources unfortunately.
Nachdenkseiten.de are more Wagenknecht friendly, they have to be, due to the constant attacks she gets from righting AND "left"wing media.