Is capitalist imperialism really more beneficial for westerners than socialism?

Even though I have watched Jason Unruhe's videos from time to time, I am actually not that knowledgeable about Maoist Third Worldism. I actually thought it was a joke ideology that Unruhe invented. I had no idea that it actually existed before he started talking about it. I read some Maoist Third Worldist material on reddit.

They argue that the reason why the west turns to the far-right instead of turning to the far-left is because capitalism (and the imperialism that comes with it) benefits the first world working class more than socialism does. Apparently the first world is wealthy only due to past colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, etc. If we stopped exploiting the third world and we moved towards socialism, apparently the standard of living for first world workers would be worse than it is now.

In the eyes of a Maoist Third Worldist, a McDonald's burger flipper is not worth $15/hr. The first world McDonald's burger flipper who makes $15/hr is a parasite in their eyes.

I have to wonder if the Maoist Third Worldists are right about there being no revolutionary potential in the first world. And first worlders wanting capitlaist imperialism because they know that it is in their best interests. Not socialism.I have tried to debate with libertarians and American Dream capitalist shills recently. Pointing out that they are exploited. That they have to work 40 hour work weeks for the bourgeoisie when there is no reason why the work week should be more than 20 hours due to all the automation and labour productivity gains made by the wokring class.

I mention that they are slaves to the rent-seeking bankers. Working so hard to pay off their bloated mortgages way past inflation. I mention that they are slaves to their landlords. Paying sky-high rents that have went above inflation. I point that labour is paying the price for the propping up of asset bubbles in real estate, stock markets, bonds, etc. They tell me with a straight face that they don't feel exploited.

They say that they are happy. That I'm the only one who is miserable because I can't hack it in the world, blah blah blah. At best they say that crony capitalism is behind the asset bubbles and inflation.

It's hopeless. You tell the people that they should be working less for the same annual pay. And that they shouldn't be paying so much for a mortgage or their rent. And they don't seem to care. They are fine with the status quo. It's like their brainwashing is deep-seated. Or is it? Maybe they're not as stupid as we think. Maybe they are justified in believing that being a bootlicker capitalist imperialist is better for their self-interests than being a socialist.

Would we still have all the wealth that we enjoy today in the first world if one of China or India said "fuck this, we're going to become Marxist and we are no longer going to serve our neo-colonialist overlords?"

That all said, I don't really see much revolutionary potential coming from the third world at this point either. In China, where are the real socialists? The Communist Party are just corporatist fascists. In India, you see some Marxist trade unions. But India is still very much a fascist stratified society with castes. You see some leftist populism in Latin America. But you're starting to see their momentum deflate these days in Venezuela, Brazil, etc.

No. There are shitloads of poor westerners and the ones who aren't have to work in shit conditions with virtually no control over their working lives.

I've tried to argue this case with the bootlickers. The Trump voters, Libertarians and people who believe in the American Dream. And they tell me that they are happy with their pay. They have happy lives in general.

What they're really telling you is that they're afraid of losing their standard of living and joining the ranks of the poor.

Some of the Trump voters are pissed off. But they actually believe that Trump is going to make America Great Again or something. But libertarians and Republicans/Democrats who slant libertarian in their beliefs believe that they are not being exploited, they are happy with their pay, they are happy with their life. And when they are not happy with their pay, they say that they aspire to rise up.

When I tell them that socialism will improve their standard of living. They will be able to work less for the same pay, they say that the less productive elements of society will bring them down. That you need smart people to tell stupid people what to do. Worker self-management doesn't work, etc.

Then stupid people can elect smart people in the workplace and if they don't agree with that then why aren't the currently attempting to overthrow democracy altogether because there is no less risk of stupid people electing a stupidperson in liberal democracy than in workplace democracy.

See, I told you they're really just scared of the poormies.
Shows you what they think of themselves. Guess they'd volutarily go to gulag under state socialism since they couldn't handle self-management.

Capitalism promotes individualism and suggests the idea that everyone, one day, could make it big.

See that nice house?
YOU can buy it if you work hard enough and try to make as much money as possible.
See that car?
YOU can have it if you shut your mouth and work harder.
That man with philiphino prostitutes sucking his cock 24/7, with hair implants, the bleached asshole, the perfectly medium rare cooked meat of his pork body wrapped in a fragrant bed of dollar bills?
That can be YOU, if you YOU believe in the american dream hard enough, if YOU push yourself out of the mold with hard work and effort, YOU can be the next self made man.
A succesful self made man is the only man worth talking to, worth thinking about, worth developing any form of admiration towards, everyone else is either struggling like you are, or actively working to hold you down with their pinko ideas that will lead you astray.

The core of capitalism is the core of the american dream, or what today people think the american dream was about.
To strip them of the idea that capitalism can do no wrong and that their entire lives they should shut their fucking mouths and just work harder, regardless of how much they're paid, regardless of how much they destroy their own body and sanity in the process, is to strip away at the very core metal beams that build the infrastructure that is their very being, their soul.

A person fully ensnared in the mind poison of the modern american dream can't be saved, they don't -want- to be saved, they willingly embrace this delusional coma as every other possibility paints a picture of reality too grim, depressing and alien for them to even remotely consider living in it.

They also like to resort to personal attacks. If you're not happy with your pay, they tell you to suck it up and better yourself so that you can earn a bigger paycheque. If you're unemployed and you point out that more than 15% of men 30-34 are not employed and that unemployment statistics are bogus, they tell you to suck it up and fight for a job like everyone else. I'm currently a NEET, actually more like a hikikomori freeter actually since I make some money "self-employed" (I have to answer to rent-seekers though for my expenses) working online while living in my parents' basement.

When you have this kind of mentality, you have to either
1) be actually be happy with the situation you are in
2) believe that things are going to get better for you
3) believe the powers that be are going to make things better for you (ie. Trump)
4) have convinced yourself that you are happy with your shit life of servitude to your boss, the bankers (mortgage, car payments, credit card debt, student loans, etc), landlords, etc.

There's also this big cult of positive thinking and self-help stuff right now that bootlickers buy into.

My six figure earning yuppie sister has taken an interest in "minimalism" recently. Isn't Minimalism basically an ideology that porkies invented to keep the working class in control and be content with their relatively low purchasing power while the bourgeoisie enjoy the highest purchasing power levels in society due to their growing parasitical exploitation of the working class since the 70s.

One petit-bourgeoisie libertarian actually said that he reported me to the FBI because I told him that I hope ISIS attacks his city next instead of Orlando (he's in Florida) and kills usurious rent-seeking bourgeoisie scum like himself. This is proof that libertarians are not in favor of freedom. They are fascists. He told me that he is someone very important and he will get the FBI after me (meanwhile he's a lolbert that sells bitcoin, how powerful can this fucker be? People with real power don't sell bitcoin). Hahahaha.

Bourgeois "individualism"

Exactly. There's nothing individualist about agreeing to get fucked up the ass by your employer, by the bankers, by your government "representatives" and by the bourgeoisie's hired thugs (cops).

The society we live in seems hopeless. Class consciousness just doesn't seem possible in our part of the world.

I don't even think social democracy is possible at this point. I saw social democracy as an achievable compromise to socialism. But the working class is so incredibly classcucked. I am losing faith in humanity. I just want to see the world burn now.

I even talked to a supposed Bernie supporter recently who said that the chronically unemployed are lazy and don't want to work. Even though Bernie Sanders has spoken very sympathetically about NEETs and says that he wants to get us all $15+/hr jobs (tbh $15/hr isn't even enough but it's progress of some kind. The minimum wage in the 1960s is like $21/hr today).

I don't know what part of the world you're in but in the American South I'm seeing it spread by the day. People don't have the words to express it but they know they're being fucked and who's fucking them and they're getting angrier and angrier about it, especially the young folk.

I live in Canada (Toronto area).
If you believe the lies that StatsCan and the media tells you, unemployment among men in my age group is like 4-5%. But in reality, 15+% are not employed. And those who have a job are like "well who gives a fuck about them, they are just lazy." And the ones who are in our situation basically just do drugs and waste away. I feel like I'm the only one who is expressing that anger. Outside of criminals who steal to get by.

Politically we have liberals (neo-liberal), NDP (third-way classcucks) and Greens (they want a $20,000 UBI to pacify the lowest of the proles but they are a very marginal party). And there's no revolutionary hope outside of the political system either here.

Also didn't the American South just vote for a trustfund billionaire? I'm shocked that class consciousness would even be possible in the American South

The portion of the american south that bothers to vote AND didn't have their vote suppressed. Truth is non-voters are significantly more left wing than voters in the first place and also voter suppression was all focused on the more left segment of the population.

In the Democratic primaries, Hillary defeated Bernie by a large margin in the South as well. This is what is most demoralizing. The people can't even accept social democracy. Let alone socialism.

That was largely on the backs of black people who had other reasons for that (black political leadership telling them to do though.) So if we look at white non-voters they're not gonna have that and gonna be more leftwing than voters.


I know people that walk into work every day thinking about burning the store or warehouse or whatever down. Their bosses fuck them hard and they aren't getting anywhere with the shitty pay the receive. Now some places are giving hourly employees managerial responsibility without managerial compensation. You don't have to read Capital to know who wins in that equation. They're always hiring and part time workers roll in and out and while permanent employees get their benefits cut they get bulletins from corporate telling them how great things are going and how many billions the company made last quarter, but somehow despite the company stock going up and up and up they still only get a 2% raise a year.

To quote Zizek, they don't even have the words to articulate their own unfreedom. They know something's fucking wrong but they don't quite know what or how to express it, especially since it's not talked about anywhere but online.

Young people are the most angry. Older folk are just worried.They've got kids in school or university preparing for jobs that won't be there or back home looking for work that'll never come. They hate their jobs and are just trying to hold on until retirement. For some working people I know it'll be their second time putting in 20-25 years some place.

It's a fucking powder keg. The cherry on top of this insane sundae is that everyone is putting their hopes in Trump. Maybe that's not the right way to put it. It's not like they (or most people anyway) have faith in him as a leader or person, but they're just sort of holding their breath and hoping for the best. "Well, we'll see what happens, huh." They're hoping he at least doesn't make anything worse, but they don't seem very hopeful that he'll actually make things better. He's the president they're stuck with and they don't feel like they have any other alternative or option.

This baby is going to blow, and it's going to be a monster when all this tension finally breaks free. When the economy goes or another Katrina (or worse) leaves the east coast in tatters or whatever, people are going to lose it.

If you ask me the best thing Holla Forums is doing right now is making memes, and we ought to be cranking them out as fast as we fucking can. I don't mean Pepe meme magic bullshit, but informative stuff. If it's informative and funny then all the better, but what we really need to be doing atm is letting people know that they're not alone and that they're not crazy for thinking something is wrong and that actually gives them the clues they need to figure it out. They need to know that there are not only alternatives, but that they aren't stupid for considering that things can or should be done differently and that capitalism doesn't just stretch on forever into the future. There was a thread just recently where someone was marking up bathrooms or something with leftist slogans. We need to be doing that too. Posters, graffiti, videos, image macros, memes, all of it, in meatspace and cyberspace, scattered like breadcrumbs that lead people to the answers they're desperate for.

Yea I was about to mention something about the black vote. On Twitter you saw black people saying that Bernie Sanders is a racist old white guy (LMAO) and talks too much about class, not enough about race. You saw some white liberal cucks who supported Shillary say the same shit essentially as well.

Are working class blacks that stupid that they will vote for Hillary because black leaders and black people on social media tell them that Bernie is a racist old white guy?

Fascist doesn't mean "system I dislike".

capitalism is fascist. China and India are capitalist

Yeah, let's just discard the meaning of words. Fuck being in any way accurate in your communication, right? Who needs multiple words with specialized meanings when you can just lump everything together.
Also, for a SocDem to state that capitalism and fascism are synonyms is effectively to admit to being a fascist.

can we agree on capitalism being authoritarian then if you insist that fascism = Hitler/Mussolini/Franco?

The problem here is that whilst the 1st world worker enjoys a better life than the equivalent 3rd worlder, he certainly does not get his money's worth.

I don't even make $15, but 1/3 of my pay goes towards rent, 1/3 towards bills and council tax with the remainder for food and everything else. I have no savings. Sure I get free healthcare too but you can't compare with nominal figures as they distort and appear to minimise the exploitation that the first world prole experiences.

My impression of the minimalist fad among wealthier people is an expression of particular personal possessions being less important to them because there was little to no sacrifice required on their part to acquire them and they are always able to replace or acquire more. At that point, grand aesthetic fads become more interesting because there is no barrier to following fashion. See wealthy people replacing entire expensive appliances like refrigerators for the sake of matching colours, or creating "themes" for their homes and offices that are changed every few years. There's a lot of status seeking involved in it also, as there always is once your basic material needs are more than satisfied but there is wealth to spare.

You'd be surprised how much it costs to create an authentic minimalist theme in the bourgeois style.

Most of this is beyond the reach of poor people. We tend to value our possessions more because there was relatively more sacrificed to get them, more meaning imbued in them, less ability to replace them on a whim. That being the case, there is more of a tendency toward hoarding, and having disparate styles, being less able to follow fashion.

fascism killed Rosa

Under rated b8

Yes while we make far more than the third-world in nominal terms, our cost of living is much higher. My dad expressed concern about my situation. He says that even if I made $30,000-40,000CAD/year, he says that this is still poverty because rent among other things is very expensive here. If you're making minimum wage, let alone $15US/hr, you're not living a good life. I have personally thought about buying a house in a secluded area like Newfoundland after my dad dies. Where the housing prices are way cheaper. Because there's no way I'm going to be able to afford to live in the burbs here, let alone the city. Everything is so expensive. Our monetary policy has created asset bubbles (like real estate). And these asset bubbles act as a parasite on labour. Labourers are trapped in debt servitude.

Black people on social media, i don't think really matter that much. And in fairness there have been a lot of old white guys who talked about class and only meant poor white people.
Black leaders i think were all in on hillary because of the existing working relationship. A known quality who talks to them better than an outsider.

Even as a basement dweller that doesn't pay rent, I still have a fair amount of expenses. I had to buy a new laptop recently ($418CAD after tax) because my old one was busted and not useful anymore. I have to go see the dentist regularly (not covered by OHIP) because I don't want my teeth to be fucked up. When I went for a cleaning, I had calculus on some of my teeth because I wasn't taking care of my oral hygiene enough. I have take my car in for maintenance regularly. I have to pay insurance on my car (very expensive here). I have to gas my car. You need a car to get around in suburbia (and I live in my dad's basement so it's either that or pay some bourgeois landlord downtown enormous rent). Cars are money pits. I have a cell phone bill to pay for. I pay for some of the groceries because my dad doesn't have much food around the house.

Admittedly I eat out at fast food more than I should. But groceries are so expensive these days that cutting out fast food doesn't make as much of a difference as you would think. You can buy a medium cheese or pepperoni pizza for $5.65CAD after tax. Meanwhile a Swanson Hungryman frozen dinner is like $3.50CAD. And frozen pizzas are often $4-5CAD anyways. $3.00-3.50 for a small maybe. I ate the cheap pizza a lot in order to save money that I got sick of cheese and pepperoni pizza. A couple days ago I bought a chicken tenders sandwich with mozzarella cheese + poutine + small fries because I am so sick of pizza. I ate the chicken sandwich and poutine that night and had the fries the next day. Maybe it would be a lot cheaper if I bought those frozen breaded chicken tenders that come in a box in store, Ciabatta buns and McCain french fries. I could even make my own gravy and figure out how to make my own cheese curds. But the breaded tendies they make at the pizza place taste better. If I was on my own and didn't live with my dad, I would feel far more motivated to learn how to cook more in order to save money. Because rent and housing is expensive. I need to make my dollars go as far as they can.

This is what decades of classless identity politics does and, IMO, is what it's designed to do.

So you end up with a guy talking about class, maybe even mentioning poor whites specifically in between poor blacks and poor latinos and women and gays and everything else and this is taken as "racist, sexist old white dude" because he's talking about other stuff TOO.

You saw this among racialised whites as well when Sanders made that poorly worded comment about whites "not knowing that it's like to be poor". One ill worded remark and suddenly he's racist against whites and pandering to blacks. A mention here and there that poor whites are suffering too, and he's racist against black people and only cares about whites.

People get used to demographic targeted propaganda that panders to them (regardless of which demo they belong to) and emphasises how special their group is and how separate from others that they actually get upset and resentful when someone comes along and talks about commonalities and shared interests.

IMO, this is why it's not only important to underscore class and class power as the foundations of emancipatory politics, but also to try to undo some of identity consumerism that contributes to these attitudes.

Get a crockpot/slowcooker its literally just put the shit in cover in water turn on and come back in 8 hours to great food

MTW is defeatism in revolutionary clothing.

social democracy relies on capitalist imperialism, idiot

It does. Social democracy is not the destination, it's a stop-gap solution. It's technically still capitalism.

The real question though is: Would first world workers be better off under socialism in the absence of imperialism than they are now under imperialist capitalism? Wouldn't our standard of living plummet like crazy if we stopped raping the third world of their natural resources and their human resources?

Sounds like everyone here needs to

I heard about the labour artistocracy bit. Haven't heard anything about J. Sakai.

I will check that out

Interesting you mention that. I have been feeling quite defeatist lately. And this is why I started checking out some Maoist Third Worldist material. Wondering if Jason Unruhe really is right. lol.

When I tell people who are pro-capitalism that they wouldn't have to work so much under socialism to make the same money or even more, they just brush it off and even make ad hominem statements. Those that bother to entertain me further say that the lazy unintelligent workers would bring down the productivity of everyone else and cut into their earnings. That it's necessary for people who own the capital to call the shots because the people who own the capital are smarter than the people who don't. And that anyone with capital who goes out of business deserves it anyway.

And in their mind, if you are unemployed they say that it's because you are lazy. When you point out that there just aren't enough jobs to go around, then they say

"so you don't like competition?"

"so basically you lose in the competition of a job, you starve, go fuck yourself?"

"the reason why there aren't enough jobs is because of the minimum wage"

"so you want people to work for slave wages"

"it's not slave wages. You can easily feed yourself on $3/hr. I used to do it. I grew up in a single mother household. And she did it. And look at me" blah blah blah (this is coming from a petit-bourgeois business owner)

*that should say "you can feed yourself on $3/day"

One time I even baited these libertarians by saying "first world living standards are not sustainable with a 7+ billion world population" and then they said that we need a new black plague to kill like 60% of the world's population or something like that. Libertarians are fascist as fuck. They believe in social darwinism. Until a poor person robs them at gunpoint and then they yell "NAP!" and go crying to the state to protect them. So much for Darwinism. If you have to run like a bitch to the state to protect you, the state you hate so much, that's not darwinism at all. That's not the law of the jungle.

No. This is Götz Aly all over again.

Just because you are paid enough to not feel like an animal, doesn't mean you are getting paid fair share - or even enough. Note that indigenous Western population is going extinct. I.e. it is being paid below socially necessary amount.

Moreover, "McDonald's burger flipper who makes $15/hr" is not going to exist much longer. There is no reason for him to. USSR is over. Welcome back to 1913 (once China goes Capitalist we'll finally get our WWIII).

Every state is authoritarian. Every state is a dictatorship of one class over others. It's just in some cases dictatorship is not open dictatorship.

When Capitalist state (i.e. dictatorship of the Capitalists) can no longer pretend to be representative of everyone, when dictatorship of Capital becomes open - then and only then do we get Fascism.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat is also authoritarian - it is dictatorship - but it is not Fascism, because it is not Capitalists who are in charge.

Fascism is open dictatorship of Capitalists.
Dictatorship of Proletariat is called Socialism (delusional anarchists are allowed to call it Soviet Socialism or State Socialism - but only they).