Every time I see an argument for socialism, I can't help but notice how idealistic and delusional it sounds.
How would seizing the means of production not seriously fuck up the quality of the products?
And what is stopping Porky from moving his shit somewhere else like China?
Do you honestly think that a socialist economy with monetary gain not being a factor (if that's even possible in the first place) would result in stability?
If the world doesn't run on greed then why is "state capitalism" so common as well as the implication of "socialism has never been tried"?
How and why would it? Is a product only good when the person who made it has no control, no say, no power, and only earns a fraction of their worth? If anything that sounds like a recipe for mass produced garbage.
How are you going to move a factory to china? Or a farm? You can shut it down but, firing us won't stop us from continuing to use the machinery and preventing you from touching it.
Obviously.
It is greed though. It's called mutual aid. We can both get more overall benefits from helping each other than competing. Capitalism isn't more selfish, it's just more petty. It's not about getting more, it's just about making sure everyone except you has less.
Jaxson Richardson
There's nothing more idealistic and delusional than the idea that we can keep destroying the environment and concentrating all power and wealth in the hands of a tiny elite without this having consequences. Why would it? Are products magically made better by Porky ruling over the workers? Surely they have an interests in producing good quality goods, considering they're also the ones who'll be using them or relying on them? The fact that he's dead, or at least that his property has been seized by the working class and is no longer under his control. Why not? Ideally you'd simply abolish money and simply distribute goods in direct proportion to labor rendered. Because it's really hard to reform the world economy when you don't control most of it and are constantly undermined. I'd also argue that the USSR was a legitimate if flawed attempt at socialism, but that's another matter.
Jonathan Hughes
How would it?
How is going to physically move the factory to China?
Our economy is not stable right now, no society is perfectly stable. This is a false dichotomy between "stable" and "unstable".
I reject the State Capitalist argument. Conceptually incoherent and Un-Marxist, an attempt to refuse confronting the realities of socialist planned economy. Same with those who say "socialism has not been tried". This is a "New-Left" view that is idealist (in the ethical, not philosophical sense).
Aaron Ward
It's in your self interest faggot.
Henry Smith
This board is spoiled children who never got out of the arts and crafts mentality of kindergarten and is convinced everyone wants to make their own shoes and custom clothes but it's capitalism that is stopping them.
Xavier Moore
Sounds more like projection on your part, Holla Forums
Samuel Reed
t. libertarian
Jayden Powell
interesting, now tell me again how you feel about your video games and how it relates to global political struggles?
Jayden Morgan
Considering workers CO-OPs are more effective than privately owned companies, I'd say you're at a bit of an impass m8. And considering that Capitalism has lead to more poverty, starvation and unemployment, I wouldn't call it delusional.
As opposed to people who think anuddah shoah is real, mult-ethnic societies causes psychological harm, Hitler was a socialist, and deny evidence about the holocaust, I'd be the last one to be criticising mentality, m8.
Chase Butler
porky makes things to break and makes them with the trashiest materials possible to meet profit forecasts because Chinese proles will concrete wall him yup because we haven't purged that gene from the gene pool yet fam
Luke Collins
Oh come on I'm pretty sure idiot managers being instructed by idiot owners neither of which actually understands the equipment fuck up product quality far more than the workers ever would.
Isaac James
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James Phillips
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Jayden Kelly
What part of "seize the means of production" do you not understand?
Matthew Powell
No more then making software open source "seriously fucks up" the quality of the products. This whole question is based upon faulty assumptions.
Monetary gain is an extrinsic factor, it could be drastically reduced or even completely eliminated and replaced entirely with intrinsic factors. To not be able to would be to be extremely short sighted.
Chase Watson
How about you explain why this would fuck up the quality of the products first and then we can talk.
By taking it and killing him.
Socialist economies are extremely stable. Pic related.
Because people run on greed. However the goal is to limit how easily they can satisfy that greed and how damaging their greed can be to the rest of society. However unlike capitalism, socialism doesn't necessitate that accumulation of capital for its own sake, which is a necessary characteristic of markets. Also not all models of socialism are state-centered.
Caleb Edwards
we've been getting a lot of ancrap and liberal shitters ever since we gained in popularity, we need to start dealing with this stupidity with educational dumps and shitposting
Josiah Kelly
Depends on the system. State run is stupid for production of anything more than staple products. If it's just ran by a democratic system you can appoint the best of the best instead of the richest of the richest to run a business which makes it superior.
Products made to last will always outshine cheaply made mass produced goods with planed obsolescence built in so who cares if they do? Capitalism or at least the current formation of how it is run is very unstable and ready to crash eventually worldwide and they will run out of places to go eventually and have to actually contribute with others.
In Market Socialism it has monetary gain I'm pretty sure. Anyway even without it people just produce things for quality and their own enjoyment. Money isnt peoples primary motivator to begin with.
The bureaucrats infiltrated the USSR from the start.
Lincoln Reyes
What is the logic behind that claim? The workers can (although they shouldn't if we're actually moving toward socialism and not muh coops) respond to market signals just as well as the owners. Yes, China which has its main sectors nationalised came out of the Great Recession unscathed, as did the USSR in 1929, the resources aren't unstable, the damand isn't unstable it's the markets that are unstable. "Greed" is a terrible meme. Socialism didn't become bureucratic and authoritarian because muh evil Nomenclatura were greedy, it did because Russia was a Feudal country with an illiterate population which couldn't manage their own affairs and would turn to AnPrim if Makhno had his way. State Capitalism comes from the fact that the Communist Party had to take the place of the Bourgeoisie in order to bring the Industrial development that Marx defined to be a pre-requisite for Revolution in the first place.
Toyotaism is cancer. Grey world best world.
Hunter Clark
*sauce?*
John Johnson
A Breton Woods style system of capital controls. Porky himself could get out of the country, but his money stays in.
t. not actually a socialist but really really want Breton-Woods capitalism back.
Nobody says it's never been tried. It's not been *implemented* Implementation is different to trying.
Taping two sheets of paper to my car is me "trying" to build an aeroplane. Anyone who'd actually read theory on how Airplanes come about would be able to tell you a-priori that driving this contraption off a cliff wasn't going to be particularly successful.
You can't then say "It had wings and called itself an aeroplane, and it crashed, therefore railways are the only way to travel cross country" because - as we can see by means of using a real world analogy, aeroplanes are very much possible. You just have to use aerodynamics instead of wishful thinking and slick branding.
Robert Taylor
loltard is utterly btfo
sticky to show his incompetence
Carter Wright
"never been tried" is the AnCom "argument" that Vanguardist or any too authritarian for their tastes attempts at Socialism didn't have Socialist goals in mind at all since Revolution is supposed to be completely natural and would've succeeded if it weren't for power hungry dictators and infiltrating reactionary forces seeking to keep their power by maintaining hierarchy under supposedly socialist cloth. Anti-sectarianism seems to have worked for Holla Forums since I haven't seen that kind of claim for a long time.
Xavier Collins
people here have jobs they clock into and campuses they go to
you have neets
projection at its finest
Jaxon Lopez
muh nigga
Levi Walker
maybe a new sticky with PDFs and links to our most common arguments and the books that are discussed here?
Benjamin Cruz
Would probably explain their political illiteracy.
Joshua Jones
That only matters if you're some faggot Venezuela-tier reformist. Porky can't put his factory in a plane, only paper money.
Noah Johnson
This, the current sticky that's just a big thread isn't too cohesive or user friendly
Jacob Roberts
Not an argument.
Jack Long
Why would it? People produce what they want to produce, why would they make a shit quality version of what they like? Why isn't this shit bumplocked?
