Excuse me for my shitposting (I'm a relatively new here). But what is wrong with bourgeois socialism/SocDem...

Excuse me for my shitposting (I'm a relatively new here). But what is wrong with bourgeois socialism/SocDem? I honestly can't see something wrong there.

I actually think it's the only form of socialism that doesn't scare the masses.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_socialism

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Because they killed Roxa Luxemburg.

Look at the welfare states in Western Europe that have been built up by socdems over dozens of years. You can only sustain them while you have socdems in power. When conservatives and liberals take over they grind them down again.

It's a fight you can't win.

It's capitalism which integrates workers into the capitalist system, like liberal feminism, which integrates women into capitalism.

Why tho?

You guys always sell out to the capitalists.

I don't see something bad.

Because they become beholden to parliamentary politics and focus on winning elections instead of creating or facilitating revolution. You also cannot compromise with capitalism. If wealth accumulation remains then it's just a matter of time until the bourgeoisie are able to undo whatever reforms you achieve.

This is empirically impossible.

every socdem starts out meaning well but it turns out the system changes them before they change the system

revolutionaries are just realists who know that you can't change the system from within the system

It's impossible yet. Machine Learning will play a big role in establishing social democracy. I'm not even kidding you.

socdems in a nutshell

"Integration" doesn't necessarily mean that they'll even have a chance. Especially with capitalism, it's mostly the illusion of a chance.

Also there can't be a bourgeois with an exploited class beneath it. If all you're interested in is increasing the scope of the ruling class then you're not a socialist. You're barely even a Democrat.

Read
Unpleasant jobs will eventually become obsolete.

That is not what I said and that is not how it works. What you said is pure ancap. Socdem integrates workers into the capitalist system, meaning they still work for the capitalists, only with a happy face on with minor concessions thrown at them to keep them satisfied and not transitioning to socialism.

Its impossible simple because of the definitions of words! If everyone's getting by on exploiting surplus value who the fuck is working to produce surplus value in the first place!

Non-humans. (

"bourgeois" doesn't mean "doesn't do unpleasant jobs", it means they extract excess value from the labour of the lower class

and we're a bit early on the "having hordes of robots to act as a servant class" thing that technocrats jerk off to

technology deployed in the service of the bourgeois serves only the bourgeois. it must be liberated from the bourgeois if it has to have any benefit for the proles. the current arrangement only serves to enlarge the bourgeois surplus.

That's why the bourgeoisie opens up to the working class.

Thus turning current proles into lumpens by creating new proles. Your techno-socdem future is doomed to collapse, unless it turns to authoritarianism and becomes essentially a fascist state.

...

It's actually possible in a lot of european (SocDem -ish) countries. It's extremely hard, but nontheless possible.

There can be no capitalist system without human beings having their labor commodified to give commodities and money value. What you're describing would not be social democracy but in fact post-capitalism, or communism rather.

Robots would perform their labor for free like any machine or force of nature that can be harvested by man without effort. In a scenario where robotic/AI "labor" (like in previous industrial ages) is combined with human waged-labor it would merely mean that the productivity of human labor has increased. Capitalism could exist in that scenario like now. In a scenario where human labor has been replaced by automation we could not have capitalism.

Any post-capitalist society like that tries to save the class structure in favor of the former capitalists would just create post-capitalism for the rich and turn everyone else into use-less eaters excluded from the wealth produced by the owners of the robots. Since this is neither what we want, nor is it even really that rational for the elite now that productive powers have exploded so much that we're effectively living in post-scarcity, I just don't see that scenario being practical.

Thus we're left with communism as the only practical alternative. And still some of the AI stuff is a ways off, we're a ways off from automating everything and never underestimate porky's willingness to 1. hold back technical progress when a buck can be made 2. invent bullshit jobs. They see the kind of productivity gains that will come with automation and other innovations as the kind of thing that will make them literal trillionaires and keep the proles working for a pittance, not as something to alleviate the burdens of an overwhelmingly poor and suffering human race.

In germany for example. If you're unemployed, you can actually go to ARGE and ask for help to get higher education up to a bachelors degree.

I live in the Netherlands, socdem/liberal paradise and social mobility has died

So what are you guys for, if not democracy.

It's literally capitalism with with extra state oppression sprinkled in.

Communism.

I do I stop eating out of the trashcan?

I believe in actual democracy rather than bourgeois "democracy"

Never forget.
youtube.com/watch?v=9EMazSInIpQ

We'll all be dead due to the capitalist destruction of the environment by then. Also, who do you think will benefit from privately owned robots and AI? You think the elite will just generously share these things for the benefit of all and create a utopia? Or will they hoard them for themselves and leave the unemployed masses to starve now that they're superfluous to the needs of the ruling class?

Sovdems over socdems, baby

How would this look like? (How would it be different from now?)

You know you can also research it yourself if you're interested, google is your friend

It depends on who you ask, but personally I imagine a shift from representative government and the Anglo town mayor/city council system that seems to prevail, but I'm not an expert on local governments.

Its a trend, socdems allways become reactionary when the actual revolution approaches.

Anarchism is democratic you twat, and it's not prone to fail

It is possible in the sense that "it happens", it is far from likely for any worker. Socdem/welfare states seeks to maintain capitalism while giveing the workers basic welfare to keep them from revolting.

Oh fuck off. German social security at its lowest level is a horrible shit show that sounds nice on paper but is horrible in practice.

Donna wup me massuh