Alright commies, I need you to enlighten me sbout some stuff. Like I am truthfully trying to understand this here

Alright commies, I need you to enlighten me sbout some stuff. Like I am truthfully trying to understand this here.

I understand the "seize the means of production" thing, and that has merit when these means already exist. But how does that allow new technology and new products to be created?

So lets say Company A is a computer chip manufacturer. They have tech guys come up with a way to manufacture a more powerful chip. To make these they need a whole new production line. They either get a loan from a bank, or take money from investors, use that money to create said production line, build the product, and sell it for an amount that lets then pay off their debts + employees + profit for investors.

Company B realizes these chips are powerful enough to allow them to say, program good enough AI for self driving cars. They buy these, intigrate them into their existing product, and sell that for enough to pay debts+employees+profit.

How does this chain work under a system of worker control and no strict leadership? How do new means of production get created? How does tech advance? Who decides where to put R&D efforts? Is there domething obvious I'm missing?

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And you blew it

Socialism isn't just capitalism with workers' control.

Exactly. Socialism is the total abolition of capitalism, not just its democratization. What you are referring to in the OP is simply cooperative enterprise.

Thats not answering my question.

How does a democratic run system create new factories and new tech?

Tech startups have pushed a huge percentage of technological advancement in the last few decades. How would this be possible without investments and venture capitalists? Would people really be expected to try convince individuals that their ideas have merit and get all their investments from individuals?

Check: for general theory of cooperative enterprise.

Its equal footing of shareholders democratically vote to pool funds towards purchasing them and building them.

Cooperatives consist of venture capitalists; by giving every worker an equal vote and part ownership of enterprise, this is how it goes.


Oops, it's:

we are technologically stagnating compared to WW2 era and the turn of the last century. 3d printing and deep learning isn't even close to as important as steel manufacturing, rocketry, steam engines, mass assembled firearms etc. You fags would have to use science to justify why we shoudl give you even a tiny bit of resources

Science isn't some ultra expensive smart guy degree, with public education and public knowledge and with It companies withholding advancements.
So now people who are interested in the field can join without worrying if they ll find a job like now and take part in the effort to create such a technology and get paid fromthe success as a collective.

In other words the money is shared instead of just taken by the leader of the group

A group of researchers from a public university/Lab discover a new technology.

The researchers expose the new technology to the comunities and factories.

Comunity judges if the new technology is worth producing.

if yes resources are relocated to produce new technology.there you have it.

How are these scientists paid for their effort though?
People need to eat and get paid every month, what about projects that require months if not years to complete?

the same way everyone else is, we already answered how their research would be supplied. You sound like a fag who wants specialscienceexpertman to be lavished with gifts and status. nigger you do science, engineers invent something, we all profit. no one gets a special reward for this

in socialism all kinds of work that are recognised by the comunity are properly rewarded. scientific research is no exeption.

Alright, so all decisions for investment and other financials are made democratically, fair enough. What about debt? What if there was a financial need that was greater than any liquid assets on hand, even combined with workers assets?

Banks are pure evil, but the ability to take out loans, aquire debt, and spend more than what you have on hand has been intrumental in creating modern society. The only other option I see is convincing other groups to pool resources and finances.

Ok, so we arent in the middle of the industrial revolution atm. But the internet? Ai? Self driving cars? Instant worldwide communication? Gene editing? Robotics? Prosthetics? Solar power?

You are severely underestimating modern tech contributions.

What if someone uses his knowledge to lie and suggest if he gets money he ll do great shit? The community itself would pay for it monthly ?

How do multiple communities work though ? Unless communism is completely global other nations will exist, who will trade and negotiate with them? Don't you need an elected leader like Lenin for that?

none of those things are new and none of them (save for internet) had even remotely the impact that mass manufactured rifles did. you are a self congratulating faggot. ai has done nothing but make more money for porky, green tech is a scam so far, gene editing is only being used to develop more expensive medical procedures for middle class plebs and to make frankenfood, no serious widespread illnesses have dissappeared because of it, finally self driving cars are a fucking effette fantasy, the road system itself is a huge problem its choking the life out of the ecology in cities and is a major source of pollution. nothing has been accomplished, you'd have to be insane to think planes and trains are as small of an accomplishment as cell phones or gene editing. maybe in 100 years when noosphere tech exists and eugenics comes back then we will see early 20th century level advancement. for now all of our applied sciences are lagging behind terribly where they were supposed to be. we were supposed to have advanced neural nets by 2020

life is about risks, as a porky advocate you know this to be true
global revolution baby. we're coming for everyone and we're offering freedom. no one will escape it.

communities organize through councils or federations. look up anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian socialism for more info

the same way a group of friends decides what they want on a pizza they are all paying for

Quite hard to get an entire research team who chose a scientific career to lie idle and scratch their asses all day claiming to be doing research. especialy on a campus where rumors will spread quickly.

You know, for a group of people obstensibly all about group cooperation, you sure are a bunch of immature abrasive faggots sometimes. Attacking everyone who questions you or has even slightly different opinons is a pretty big sign of self doubt.

Please ignore some of the immature folks on this board. We have a lot of people from different areas (former Holla Forumsacks, disillusioned redditors, etc). Some more rational anons will answer your questions eventually.

Also you might consider posing your question in the /econ/ general

Something else I'd like to add, your examples includevsteam engines and rocketry.

The first steam engine patent was filed in like 1606. Rocketry tech was created in the 13th century in China.

Are you seriously trying to argue the fact that we have less tech advancement between 1945-2016 than we did between 1200-1945 is some huge social fault or issue?

And I'm still trying to figure out how debt would work or what it would be replaced by.

I appreciate the civility. If I still have questions when the thread dies I'll get clarification there.

Its a chan dude everyone is an abrasive asshole you just have to wade through it to get to the meat of discussion.

How can debt be real if our money isn't real?

Because currency and the economics are all controlled by jews.

Or it's just been in everyone's best interest to pretend like our money is still based on somethjng tangible.

Regardless, whether it's a dollar, yuan, a scribbled iou, promise for sexual favors in the future, ration slips, credits, or whatever, money in some form is not going away. Whether it's "real" or not, I can trade it for food, service, or goods

It was a bad joke dude. Communism is a moneyless society so debt wouldn't actually exist.

How doesn a moneyless society work? Even Star Trek had energy credits to protect against runaway energy use. Modern society can't get by on bartering alone.

Some people propose things like labor vouchers (they are non-transferable and do not circulate) or something like a gift economy. There's a lot of different ideas on how the exchange of goods would take place. I can probably elaborate later on when I get home.

My immediate thought is to question how those vouchers would be policed. Would everything need to be purchased through specific retailers, with no secondary market? I like old computers, tinkering with and repairing them (for example). How would I get ahold of them if people are not allowed to transfer the fruits of their labor to another person?

I realize the line between secondary market and personal enterprise can be pretty fuzzy at times, but telling people they can't resell items they aren't using any more seems awfully authoritarian. What about clothes my kids grown out of? Or is everything expected to be co-owned with my fellow community members, down to clothing?

I dont mean to sound contrarian, but it seems every answer just brings up a slew of new questions.

How did things get built and made when there were no investors etc? The people saw a need and then worked to fill it. They didn't just wait five hundred years until there were people rich enough to fund them.

There's actually a neat technocrat video about alternative currency. Politely requesting it since I'm at work.

Crowd sourcing both products and scientific studies is a thing already and works fine.

Socialism is moneyless so no, no one needs to get paid.

oops i meant crowd funding. Crowd sourcing would just apply to certain things

There's been success with crowdsourcing scientific research hasn't there? [email protected]/* */ etc?

There would be no debt that can not be paid back because the lack of charging interest. Of course that isn't the only way around that either.

what is M-C-M'?

You can't do that now. Your pay isn't the fruit of your labor. It's the compensation you get for selling your labor. The fruit is going directly to the company you work for.

I'm sure people will still want to upgrade their electronics so there would probably be outdated computers for you to tinker with. Either they would be gifted to you or maybe you have something to trade or a service to offer.
Would probably get recycled.
No. Socialists make a distinction between private and personal property. Your clothes are personal property.

Before I start, there's a clarification that needs to be made.
Socialism is the collective ownership and democratic control of production and distribution (which is effectively the worker's ownership of the MoP).

There's two ways about it, and that's decentralized and centralized planning. Decentralized planning is what you're thinking of and would come after generations of people were living in a socialist society and it would be brought about only after the destruction of liberal ideology.
A centrally planned economy requires a state and is what we would (more than likely) see in our lifetimes.
In a decentralized economy, it'd be local councils that get community input (from my understanding at least) to acquire resources from other councils.
In a centralized economy, it'd be a chain of command, so (for example) it'd go local councils (lc), county councils (cc), territory councils (tc), region councils (rc), country councils (coc), inter-country (or global) councils (icc), so ic->cc->tc->rc->coc->icc with varying communications at each level (and yes, this will be much easier with computers being able to do all the calculations).

As necessary. If a new factory needs to be built, then it'll go through a process to get approval for being built (including resource allocation and a timeframe).

Same way it has in the past, just without the incentive to create more profit.
"What's the incentive then?" I hear you ask.
Simple: If I make a robot 2x more efficient then I can get 2x the amount of time off, and this would go down the line of improving other robots so that others could get 2x the amount of time off.

Whichever level of councils would need to communicate about it.

Besides still believing that money (as we see it currently) would exist under socialism/communism, no not really.

(sorry if some points are unclear/confusing/whatever, tired)