Complexity and Ease of use

It would. First the casuals come, then (((they))) take notice, buy out Toady or replace him with someone they can control, and all of a sudden dorf fort is about multiculturalism

fuck back to your shithole

sage

So which roguelikes with tons of features and shit are worth learning?

Nethack and Dorf are worth learning

You say that like having a learning curve to the UI isn't beneficial to niche games like Dwarf Fortress where the creator actively tells you to meddle with game files as you see fit.

Speaking of DF as an example, at least the shitty psuedo-community that has sprung up like a cancerous growth that can't/won't actually play the game, instead watching Let's Plays and circlejerking over other people's content on TelAvivTropes, can always be picked out of a conversation like the massive faggots they are, to the point where Toady has called them out on several occasions. The simple fact that the game has a barrier to entry keeps that overwhelming tide of casuals and faggots spurred on by Boatmurdered from flooding every inch of the game is an absolute blessing.

Partly true. Casuals won't bother to learn unfun things like a million keybinds or console commands. That said, casuals aren't really the problem when it comes to game quality decay. It's human nature. The dev you've been praising is a greedy piece of shit like the rest of us and as long as what he's doing remains more of a hobby project he'll only do what he feels is making the gameplay more interesting or better. He doesn't think he needs to make the UI better because he himself is already used to it. However, if he does make the UI better, casuals might give it a try. If casuals end up liking it, they'll start throwing their shitty, retarded, casual opinions around. As the dev smells money from the huge casual crowd, he'll eventually break and start implementing said opinions. At first he'll start with something that might even be a good idea (like an intuitive UI for example) and he'll slowly start to succumb to bad, dumb and dumber opinions. The more popular his game gets the worse shit that makes it less of a game will get patched in simply because people (ie. casuals) will like it and casuals will be the ones bringing in the moolah. Most people don't like "work". They don't really wanna "get into it", they just wanna be entertained so if you make them learn stuff they won't like it. Therefore you'll never reach a big, mainstream crowd with complicated ideas. The greedy dev is the asshole who ruins your games and he does it for the money.

There's one way to make the casual crowd "get into it" but it requires a lot of work. Campaigns. Basically, you make tutorials disguised as sp campaigns that unlock new options as the player progresses through the game, making them have fun while subconsciously learning the game. Just like in RTS games (and most mp games of the past tbh). You'd finish the campaign and then try MP and it was like another game but you already learned enough about it through the campaign to not just instantly get demoralized and give up after getting stomped for the first time. But as I said, this requires a lot of work so the dev usually opts for the easier option and just simplifies, strips, and hacks away at the game's features as the casuals instruct him to do. Then he collects $$cashmoney$$ and lives happily ever after.

People like you are why Dungeon Crawl sucks now.

Mechanical complexity and depth are not directly tied to accessibility and controls. Accessibility, one's ability to pick up the game, is what determines the skill floor. The actual depth of its gameplay is what creates the skill ceiling. A game becoming more intuitive to pick up and play does not need to come at the detriment to its skill ceiling, and attempting to add depth to the game does not mean the game has to become less accessible.

I'll fuck you up pleb

Yeah, IVAN is actually pretty sleek. A better example of needlessly inefficient GUI would be Elona. Nips gonna nip.

You completely miss the point. High skill floor will repel the inevitable influx of stupid people that will eventually outnumber the orginal fans and demand a lower skill ceiling. You see this happen to every franchise.

Elona is simple enough to be playable with a controller, as long as it has L2/R2. Doesn't even use analog sticks.
This is achieved by grouping actions like eat/read/use in tabs of the same menu, and placing the rarely used stuff like "dig" in a single radial menu. Traditional keyboard shortcuts are still there, but you're not required to learn them all. The game itself is about as complex as ADoM.
Turns out roguelike controls aren't sophisticated at all, they're just redundant.
Controls are the least of a casual's worries, so calm the fuck down.

I probably wouldn't have gotten into roguelikes if it wasn't for Brogue. Now I play just about any that come out.

Faggots, the lot of you.
Making the game more acessible would be removing classes, skills, items and monsters so you have less elements to worry about.
Having the exact same content but with better UI doesn't make it more or less acessible.

For instance, > and < for going up and down ladders makes no sense, there's never a point where you have to choose one of two. A single key for that is more than enough.

And invemtory management and equiping/unequiping items doesn't need several keys for it.
R to remove rings, u to equip them, W for armor and t to take it off?
Give me a drag and drop interface with grid inventory and stop being retarded, please.

This as well. Elona really has a really nice UI that shows you can do a really good roguelike without relying on hotkeys alone.

Only thing missing is the ability to throw any item at all.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fucking kill yourself.

If they did what you wanted, you'd just be here complaining that you have to click through 35 different fucking menus to access what you want.

The key-binds aren't just around to piss/scare people off, they're there because they're needed. It's easier to learn what letter of the alphabet does what instead of having to memorize entire menus just so you don't have to pause for 5 minutes while you navigate to what you actually want to do.

IVAN is pretty cool if you've ever wanted bananas for arms

Some of it really is just needlessly inefficient. Like having separate commands to wear armor and jewelry, or to use and invoke things, or to eat and drink things, or to open and close things, or telling you something's locked without prompting you to unlock it, etc, etc.

It just adds needless redundant complexity and busywork.

I think this is necessary tbh. You probably wouldn't complain about an armor menu and an accessories menu in just say a JRPG because they're two different things, but you're being disillusioned because it's labelled armor and jewelry. It's the same in roguelikes. Think about it for a moment. If the game allows you to break down armor to the extent of choosing hand and arm pieces for each both the L and R side of the body, plus a chest piece, helmet, leg armor, and boots, combining that with the four rings, necklace, amulet, and whatever else all in one menu becomes cluttered. Breaking it all down into what is essentially BODY ARMOR and MAGICAL ACCESSORIES doesn't really change a whole lot short of having to spend a single second noticing the key you need to equip and unequipped. The separate menus for equipping and equipping couldn't be made better because of this.

Sometimes necessary for the above reasons of absolute selection of what you're doing.

Could be the same menu, but usually the depth of items found makes it easier to break it down into an eat menu and a drink menu because of the sheer amount there is too select.

I think a lot of roguelikes have this on the same key, but there's also a fair amount that don't. A valid argument.

Again a valid argument.

To sum it up entirely, the current system that roguelikes use is necessary to most parts, and while some areas would benefit from a different system, that would break the flow of the menu/selection system which would provide a negative impact to actually learning the game. Having a two part menu system might be easier after you've learned everything, but learning as you go, a single system for selection is a lot easier to learn and implement.

If none of this makes much sense, it's a shitty excuse, but it's because I'm pretty drunk right now.

jrpgs do not, as a rule, do that, because it's dumb. you select a slot, then select the relevant item. it's not real complicated.

your rationalizations are bad. their uis are shit, and it's in no way necessary or good design. they do little more than add elitist cred, which is evidently what's important to most of the faggots here.

I shouldn't have used more than 40 words for you shitpost but I did

That's an impressive amount of projecting towards Toady, friend.

It repels people in general. Making controls arbitrarily complicated doesn't add anything rewarding to the challenge, it just adds to the tedium involved in playing the game. People generally don't want tedium in their entertainment.
If the developer sells out to appeal to the lowest common denominator, then that's the fault of the developer - similar to how they would be "selling out" to their more "hardcore" crowd if they made the game needlessly complicated to just interface with to the point of frustration. Believe it or not, you can a design games that aren't exclusionary to either the more skill oriented audiences or towards more casual audiences - it doesn't have to be one way or the other. It would be harder to do, but it's not impossible. The only reason the dichotomy exists is because developers want the easy way out.

If you want your games to be exclusionary than by all means, go ahead and make them like that. Just don't complain that development on them slows to a snail's pace with how few people there are to work on it and how little incentive they have given how little people there will be around to play it.

who's toady? no, you misunderstood. when i wrote "your precious dev" i meant it in general. as in most people are like that, even your precious devs that seem like they aren't now. because they only have a niche following now and if they happen to break into the mainstream they will most probably betray you for money.

they'll betray you and their own values*

why didn't anyone tell me I can roleplay as Knuckles in DF Adventure mode holy shit

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Threads like these are exactly why they should make the UIs even more obtuse and unintuitive. Go play Red Rogue, nerdclops.

Furthermore, some of you are operating under some bizarre assumption that the playerbases for these games are crying out for more players. A lot of these games are passion projects that are put out for the enjoyment of the developer first and foremost with the community forming around it because they also happen to enjoy it. Maybe the concept of creating something for the sake of it is too hard to grasp, however.

No, you have no idea what accessibility is. For one, you repeatedly spell it wrong which triggers my autism. Get a damn spell checker. You're under the impression given by SJWs and marketers who use the word to mean "dumbing shit down to sell to more people". What accessibility means, is literal availability for the game to be playable to more people. This mainly includes things like subtitles for the deaf, options for the colorblind, one handed controllers for cripples, etc.

I would be fine with learning a fuck ton of keybinds gradually, but having it all dumped at the beginning and needing a shit ton of it memorized off the bat to be anywhere near competent puts me off of most of these games.

This is fit for one of those Picardia smiley faces.

This is so fucking retarded. I guess Dota 2 is the best game ever since you have to waste countless hours learning all the random ass mechanics just to play the game.

Also Dwarf Fortress is a shit game. It had a ton of ground breaking ideas, all in the hands of an idiot who's too obsessed over adding shit like "Muh Lore" which you wont even notice when playing the game, instead of focusing on shit like multithreading a game where you have +200 units doing shit. Not having zombie heads that are unkillable so you have a pile of 30 dwarves wrestling with it till the end of time making the framerate lag hard.

The game is fucking flooded with shit that is unfinished. What's the point to pottery when stone is abundant and you can make almost anything, even containers for alcohol, out of it? Why the fuck would you use glass making for anything other than magma pipes? The answer to this, is add random sperg out moments where your guy goes "I NEED X OR IM GOING TO KILL MYSELF" (sometimes it'll be shit that isn't even on the map) or nobles which most people kill off. So instead of adding a complex deeper mechanics you just shoe horn in a use that can universally apply to any of your name-swap skills. Fantastic design.

Also you never need an army because you can just build wood traps for everything, catch them, loot them, then throw it into the magma pit. You don't even need to mine shit, because if you get invaded by goblins you can just use their shit, which you get from trapping them.

There is also no endgame. I put my base next to 4-5 necromancer towers I created by fucking with the settings, and the first 3 years where fun as fuck because I was constantly fighting off hoardes of the undead. People who came to my fort instantly got PTSD from all the carnage. Then after the 3rd year? Nothing. The only thing left is wait till a steel dragon breathing forgotten beast wipes out your base, or to mine the adamantine and let the demons wipe you out. That's another thing. This game is the definition of overblown hype for nothing. Everyone tries to cover up the demons by calling them "The circus", and in reality they're just 50-60 near unkillable enemies that end the game when you get to them. So basically you just ignore they exist.

That's why the meme of dwarf fortress is "Do dwarf science even if you destroy your base" because there's nothing else to fucking do, the designer doesn't give a fuck, and none of the community members which don't even play the game care. The game is fucking shit. The "THIS GAME IS HARDER THAN STARCRAFT" shit is a shit meme.

It's a shit game being hyped by a bunch of retards who jack themselves off to the fact they spent 5 minutes learning the UI.

I also like how water, the most complex thing in the game, is unusable because the game lags too hard to even use it. Good job retards. Enjoy your amazing game that runs at 3 fps even though it's 100% text

We already have

If it's a proper roguelike, even casuals can have fun games.

See: Dredmor, Stone Soup

Two dudes make DF. They started over a decade ago and almost every game that tries to "improve" upon Fortress mode fails. Rimworld is getting there.

Maybe if it had hundreds of contributors like DCSS does, it would be more accessible and more technically sound. But it would then bend the knee to faggots with bad opinions the way DCSS does too.

What the fuck is there to improve? It's a buggy gamemode with no endgame full of nameswap skills. You can beat dwarf fortress by starting a farm under your base with a brewery and sealing the entrance. That's why the "Blow your base up for science" meme exists. Because there's nothing in the game. It's fucking dogshit.

Also the circus is a bunch of demons that are just very strong titans that will overwhelm and wipeout your base. So you basically just pretend they're not there. Whoops. I just spoiled literally the only thing in the entire game.

Why did people play SimCity and then run tornadoes and godzilla through it? What do you do with a Lego set after you've built it?

You're right, it's barely a game. And it's definitely not easy to make fun things happen. Yet people play it. Weird.

If you want to argue the creativity side of it, you already know minecraft blew it out of the water when it came to that. The only part Dwarf Fortress comes close to doing better is you can have your dwarves do all the tedious stuff. I wouldn't even count the water mechanics because they're unusable since it makes your framerate disappear.

I came to dwarf fortress under the impression that it was base building autism with a purpose and was wrong.

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A Unintuitive UI isn't a skill ceiling, it's like saying having always reversed controls drives away people from playing the game.

Also, I already explained why dwarf fortress is an absolute shitshow of a "game" here.

Minecraft is a better Fortress mode?

Terrafirmacraft is.

Orders of magnitude. Invasions stop coming after the first few years. Then there's nothing except forgotten beasts which are just random attribute swaps. The game is too laggy to get a gigantic base going where as minecraft you can have a huge city with no problems.

Toady sat on his game like a fucking retard. Did nothing with it. Notch stole all the good ideas from it combined it with Infiniminer and made a better game. One of the few times where a clueless dev sits on a genius idea for years and it gets stolen.

While I think that the people defending DF's UI are faggots, you're pretty much the bigger faggot here since you clearly don't understand how Sim games work.

By the way get a non-toaster

Ease of use brings a lot of SJWs. Look at Overwatch, WoW, GW2, and TF2.

I agree DF would benefit from more devs, and I'm not going to defend its quality against other games. Point stands that Fortress mode is unique, but certainly hamstrung by having two people making it slowly. I haven't played Terrafirmacraft or anything beyond vanilla Mincraft. I didn't enjoy it enough, so I stopped playing.

It's odd that you reached Hell/circus in DF and didn't realize until then that it wasn't the game for you. Why did you play for that long?

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What? If anything, it's the easiest UI out of all the games.

I know most of Holla Forums is full people who's technical skills are so low they still think consoles aren't just PC's but I'll do my best to explain how computers work.

It doesn't matter how fast your GPU is if a game doesn't have graphics. It doesn't matter how fast your CPU is if you have to keep accessing from memory every couple of seconds. You can fit 64 bytes into 1 line of CPU cache before you have to access from main memory. This is called a cache miss, and getting from main memory costs 300 cycles. This is part of the reason why they added multiple cores instead of just making faster CPUs. So each CPU simultaneously could process different parts of memory instead of one CPU having to constantly be going back to memory. This is also why a lot of older games run like shit on modern hardware. It's because they where optimizing for weaker GPUs/CPUs but worked with the same memory. So they would sacrifice CPU/GPU processes and just use memory, but all newer computers are still bottlenecked at memory.

Well if your game isn't multi-threaded none of that shit fucking matters.

I saw all the skills and thought they all had a use or niche. Like glass would be really useful in desert. Only when I started experimenting with everything I found out "Oh no, it's literally just a name swap with stone". Also I assumed my bases had no problems because I was too far from goblins or something. So eventually I intentionally started seeking out necromancer/goblin fortresses and then that's when it all came together.

I will only agree that modded minecraft is better than DF. Sometimes a nigga just wants to watch dorfs dorf, man.

I do love me some of that zany-ass shit you can get up to when you have a bunch of mods all automating one another, leading to some massive mega-industrial complex where you hit a button and it mines out all the z-levels in 20 square meters, sorts it, processes it, and then lets you simply request items through an auto-crafter

Good points but I hope you're not implying Starcraft is hard.

edgy opinions bro, I bet you were the cool kid at school

for anyone that knows Crawl and is wondering if their devs stopped being complete fucking morons:

Nope! a few days ago they "fixed" Tomb, one of the deadliest branches in the game. They changed the stairs into non-return hatches. So that way, you're dropped into a room full of the hardest enemies in the game and cannot use the stairs to avoid them.

They are catering to less than a dozen people who complain about the game being too easy and then avoid any criticism about the changes. Game needs to be forked and soon.

But seriously, what the fuck are they doing? The game gets LESS content over time.

What's your problem? You have all the time you need in a turn based game. And I loved using custom macros bound under function keys in ZAngband to simplify my gameplay.

Well clearly you don't have to worry about accessibility ruining your sex life.

Kill yourself OP, you fudgepacking queer.

more crawl devs making great .20 changes:
Sword of Jihad was renamed
Bow of Krishna was renamed
Ring of Shaolin was renamed
can't have any cultural appropriation in our game! fuck

I do agree that DF should focus more on the gameplay than the world around it. Sieges as you said before need improvement. In fact there are several obvious features that if implemented would make sieges/invasions a lot more interesting than they are now:
If the game just had simple things like this out would be way more fun

The only good parts of dorf forts are those that can be showcased in legends mode without even having to learn the controls or actually play the game

I have better question, why Roguelikes never evolved past top down perspective and shit graphics?
Really makes you want roguelike FPS with Cryengine graphics.

Is there some good shit i don't know about, that doesn't look like its from the 80's or 90's?

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