It's time for self-reflection, Holla Forums

This better be bait.

Literally the whole point of intersectionality is that identity politics are limited but can be reconceptualized

Esoteric Jahanism is the only solution to this.

I live in the inner city. One of the highest immigrant populations in the United States.

No, what you mean to say is being against people who rely on IdPol to frame entire arguments. I am not against BLM, feminism, ect. I am against assholes who say "Only straight white men care about income inequality".

Sorry that I don't think all the worlds problems can be solved by becoming part of the Tumblr feminist movement.

I'm not necessarily talking about their income or age, I'm talking about how they just wanted the benefits of the revolution without having to sacrifice a thing. Also how they treated oppressed people.

Literally the whole point of intersectionality is that identity politics are limited but can be reconceptualized

Well, I'm trans-woman, married, transitioned in my late teens… my husband and I are what you would consider "proles" like most people and he is trans as well.

My distaste for idpol isn't that I don't think there is prejudice and discrimination in society relating to race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc. It's more that I think it trips over itself constantly and is afraid of real confrontation. Then you have the idpol of religious groups like Muslims which trend reactionary.

I'm all for confronting real oppression, but lack of class consciousness has led idpol to being totally hijacked by bouge liberals. Clinton's entire campaign was idpol, and guess what, SO WAS TRUMPS.

To me, real idpol happens at the community level of people engaging one another in genuine ways. You know, a diverse community coming together to grow some food. The internet and the way idpol has been used in modern American political discourse is nothing but distraction and divide+conquer garbo.

I think anyone who attended college in the last 10 years understands this. It has been totally reduced down to hippie liberal trash. "Oppression Olympics." I even saw this happen on campus. People had to take one step forward or one step back depending on whether or not they had been given various "privileges" or not.

How about "Who here is a fucking slave to their boss?"

leftypol's understanding of what identity politics is can be summed up as such:

So, in other words, nobody here has read anything about feminism, language, or identity politics. Which is no surprise where we currently are.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Try reading the news some time. Shit arguments like this all the time

As a Hispanic with roots of Mexican-African slaves, I've never seen idpol to be particularly useful in the slightest. To me it always derailed actual action, having to worry about offending or if a group was being "included" in the revolution. Worrying about and believing the concept of race is important is just another dividing line that adds onto the list of things that keep the proletariat separated and vulnerable to porky's oppression.

Again, no.

And no again.

If you cannot reformat western languages you cannot solve the problem of identity.

Yes I have, I'm Bi and I still think class consciousness/struggle needs to come before smaller identity issues. That doesn't mean ignoring real oppression of minority groups, women and sho on and sho on. The problem is if we put those first all we are doing is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic of capitalism. There is no worse defense of the current system than representation and minority capitalism.

Explain.

I'm a bisexual Latino with a trans gender girlfriend
Fight me you fuckin kulak

South East Asian languages, Vietnamese in my experience of it being my first language, there's not a whole lot of room for identity at all.

In fact, it's not important in grammatical structure. We speak, without the use of it. Identification is not important.

You have languages that have gendered nouns for inanimate objects in languages coming from Europe, Spanish is a good example.

The problem with all this is, how can you escape identity politics when everything you've grown up with, thought, spoke, learned from, comes from a place of individuality because of western language's emphasis on person to person identification

You can't.

Politics, spoken in western tongue, will always be in one form or another, inseparable from identity.

It's bound into the grammatical structure of it all.

I think denying that sexism, racism, etc. exist is a dangerous thing to do, but with that said, I don't think we're going to be able to effectively move forward by stretching ourselves too thin to cater to every single oppressed and marginalized group.
Here's one for you though: why do you care so much more about idpol than socialism?

My family have been proles for generations. My grandpa was union steward who was more than likely spied on by the feds. My aunt can't heat her house. Most of my cousins have committed theft.

We shouldn't be organizing on racial, sex, or gender lines, we should be organizing along a class line.

Same with my family. I'm so proud to say my grandpa was and is a union man! He still has his old jacket!

Proles need to stop fighting proles!

The way I see it, as long as we identify in how we think because of language, how we inform our politics, whether we know it or not, will be part of what the problem of identity politics is.

The best route is to confront this, not argue over identity, as its fruitless itself considering.

No, because I bat for both teams if you know what I'm saying. Some prole calling me a faggot or whatever is less of a problem for me than a bougie woman, trans person, or person of colour telling me that class struggle is irrelevant because their identity politics related struggles are more important. Sure, homophobia, sexism and racism are problems, but they have to be grounded in a material basis (class and relationship to the means of production) instead of being arbitrary categories of identity.

How do you achieve class consciousness without acknowledging your identity as part of a certain class?

There's nothing wrong with idpol as long as it has a strong basis in/awareness of class AND is not ethnic nationalist.

I'm not white though

Boy, this sure is fascinating and all. But what is to be done about it?

I get the feeling that most people aren't gonna be keen on adopting Vietnamese as the worldwide Lingua Franca.

No because I'm a cis lesbian and have more muh privilege points than you.

This is why I'm against identity politics - because it's inherently counterrevolutionary.

The overwhelming majority of people are oppressed by virtue of needing to sell their labor in order to survive; the purpose of identity politics is to obfuscate that fact.

South East Asian languages is pretty cool

Esperanto bruh

I never suggested as much. Esperanto has similar grammatical structure. Less emphasis on personal identification.

In my mind, just creating a language of our own is complicated, difficult, but not impossible. It's been done before in the 20th century.

I have in fact considered it. The fact remains though that I'm still convinced solving racism and sexism before solving capitalism is swimming against the current at best and quite possibly actively impossible. I'm sympathetic to those that think otherwise but I don't really want to waste time and effort just to assuage them.

OWS and the hostile takeover by idpol was what turned me forever against idpol.

Why are you blaming fellow comrades who did nothing wrong for being

1. hetero
2. cis
3. white
4. males

THEY ARE ON OUR FUCKING SIDE. Don't diss them, because you still haven't overcome the archaic biblical concept of collective guilt and original sin.

If you truly believe in original sin you wouldn't be singling out any specific race for discrimination

Not by race, of course, but only those smart enough to interpret and speak the scripture (ie not women if you're a catholic) :v)

I don't, it's retarded. Even Amos said so.

I'm trans, so your little "non-oppressed" tumbler speech doesn't affect me. Holla Forums more often than not talks shit about transsexuality, but that's not the point. Despite that, they're for most posters still 100 % on target when it comes to idpol.

I'm Mexican, so no. Fuck you, you stupid SJW faggot nigger.

Also, idpol is even the only thing they got right. You're an idiot for going after them on the only term that they're most principled and reasonable on.

Wasn't Ham used to justify slavery, because he laughed at his dad when he was piss drunk and butt naked?

Niggs are supposed to be his descendants, which is funny in a way, since they also would admit that Noah is our all common granddad.

The wage gap is a myth

I am not and yet I dont care

Nice spooks anyway, fagtron

I know this is bait but…

I grew up in dirt poor in rural Australia as a young fag, was outed in high school and faced constant bullying, have been gaybashed on 3 separate occasions, including one severe enough I ended up in hospital not knowing how I got there. Was even fired from my first job when word got around there - where my boss refused to give me severance and outright told me that it'd cost me more to fight it in court than I would get at the end (may not have been true, but an 18 year old kid believes that stuff). There's sob story than that, but you get the picture.

I think you'd be surprised at how often it's the people who have actually faced discrimination or oppression with direct material consequences on the basis of some demographic they belong to who tend to be the ones who have a problem with "idpol". And how often it's people who have never really been in a position where prejudiced attitudes from others have had a material effect on their lives who tend to be the ones that want to focus on it.

Which is, of course, the whole point of wanting to focus on class and dismantling the capitalist system. Because that makes the world a better place for everyone (or at least every prole) rather than selfishly focusing purely on elevating whatever tribe society has decided I belong to.

More than that, if you want more than just to preen yourself over how moral and accepting you are of minorities (how magnanimous of you), the primacy of class is essential. Right now, with the kind of politics common in the West, you're relying on the goodwill and generousity of the majority to their "other" to get anything done. You're relying on pity.

I saw this first hand when I was coming up in LGBT activism 10-15 years ago. Most activists were people whose coming out story was like their mum tearfully telling them she'd love them no matter what before their dad bought them a car. These were the comfortable people how had the time and spare resources for this kind of work and they were very into hating on straights and antagonising people because something called them a poofter once.

It works OK when times are good because the boogeyman majority can afford to be generous, they're willing to take a little abuse from you because they're comfortable and it can make them feel good about themselves to see largesse being bestowed on the unfortunate.

But pity is a well that dries up when times aren't good. If all your politics is good for is establishing tribal identity based on increasingly atomised demographics as the accepted way politics is to be conducted, you're in for a very rude awakening when things take a turn downward. As we've all been finding out over the last few years.

So you know what, dealing with sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia is an important and worthwhile project. But putting these things first, droning on about "privilege" to people who have nothing in their lives telling them they have any, purely on the basis that THEIR skin colour or sexuality is in the majority is idiotic. This just emphasises your own prejudice and cultivates theirs while convincing them that your interests and theirs really are at odds.

This is why class solidarity is the necessary first step and the one that even people on the left seem to have forgotten about and are neglecting to the point that we almost have to start from scratch now. Because it shows people what they have in common, that their interests are mostly the same. If you can convince Cletus, Jamal and Tran that their material interests are closer to each others' than to William J. Investmentbanker, then you can have a much easier time convincing Cletus that racist discrimination against Jamal also hurts HIM, or that sexism to Sally does, or that no help being available for Sam the poofter does and so on.

The problem that I, and AFAIK many on this board have with "idpol" is that class solidarity - the necessary foundation to build on - is neglected in favour of demography and virtue signalling which impedes real world progress any time there is economic pressure (like now).

Yeah, tell that to a white homeless fella you drongo cunt.

I'm only a socialist because It's in my interests for now, as soon as it stops then I'll pursue whatever is.

Oh wow, the same bullshit spouted by liberals again and again for the last 5 years.
no
I came to be socialist by figuring out myself that the system is fucked and the "1%" make millions off the backs of millions. Additionally, anti-idpol is not anti-black or anti-woman. It is to put an end to the hierarchy of oppression in which power is given to those who can claim they belong to a more oppressed demographic. Not even personal experience, but simply belonging to an arbitrarily designated group. It's like if I claimed superiority based on my white skin because of some achievement other white people who are not me made.

De-spook yourself.
Over and out.

Sounds like she has the right idea.

Why would it stop being in your interest?

Hah this. Let the butt hurt economic determinism flow.

Daily reminder that there is absoltely no academic foundation for terms like "economic determinism" or even "class reductionism" and that they are all bullshit invented by activists and other nobodies who don't understand theory.

Talk about anti-intellectual.

I'm black, idpol is liberal bullshit and doesn't work.

Linguistic determination was proven to be highly false.

Good post.

Has it?

I seriously doubt it because in some ways, other languages and cultures do not mesh with others, easily at least.

Which is not to say I'm against coexistance and all that

Just that, how we percieve the individual, and different things, its subtly different. At least in my experience, the English language is far far far far different than Vietnamese.

It's a stretch, but putting less emphasis on identity I think is a positive to collectivism, if a language were to form.

Can you point me to where these ideas have been thoroughly debunked?

I just find it hard to believe culture and language are able to be meshed so easily.

I support leftists arguing about identity politics because it weakens you and makes it easier for us Nazis to take the reigns.

You'll soon realize you have absolutely nothing to accommodate to Capital and spend the next few decades alive delaying the next best thing that will fail, or laboring away fantasizing about it.

In the end all internet nazis reinforce Neoliberal policy and will die alone.

As essentially, all nazis have for a century.

Quit pretending to be the CSM from the X-Files and get a retirement plan

I support nazis thinking they can take the reigns because it means we market anarchists can justify the destruction of nations and traditions for the sake of the invisible hand

I'm a libertarian at heart buddyboy but I don't see it working out on a large scale in this day and age.

Literally only a couple tankies and nazbols with like one TERF really shit on trans people here

Well when milo is aeound we call trannies men because he hates females and only wants to fuck traps, but that has more to do with hating the tripfag than traps.

To all newfriends, here's what you do when you see something like this.

There is really people who get triggered by the fact that in neo-latin languages the nouns can be masculine or feminine?
What is your problem? Why are you so stupid?

Coincidence?

Transfolk are a product of an environment heavily saturated with xenoestrogens.

Holla Forums shitbags too often reveal that they’re just recovering Holla Forumsyps. That, or they spend too much time online in toxic idpol circles like leftbook or reddit and take out their resentment here for being banned.

The only path forward is Brocialism with Idpol Characteristics.

youtube.com/watch?v=3X8yGhBV1a8

...

...

What's the source of the song?

In modern linguistics, yes.

Linguistic determinism, the idea in which language determines thought has been shown to be provably false simply by the clear evidence that humans can think about things despite the complete lack of words and grammar to use for it. Does one suggest that they will invent "electricity" and that they only have to find out what it is?

Additionally what about the German word "Schadenfreude", how is it that while English lacks an equivalent word have many native English speakers been able to experience the feeling of schadenfreude? Under the strong version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis "Linguistic Determination" such a thing should be unfeasible since the language one uses determines thought.

This is not to say that the weaker version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in which language influences but does not determine thought has been discredited, unlike the strong form it is quite commonly accepted among linguists in this modern age.

And some random Holla Forumslyps, seriously you shouldn't take what some shitposters say at the time in a thread as the consensus of a place on a anonymous image board.

I was so fucking lucky that my women's studies professor in college was an AnFem.

Read lacan

How does that differ from any other feminist garbage

I'm not well versed on the tendency, but she turned me on to Emma Goldman and that was my initial exposure to anarchism and socialism. She never engaged in the tumblr-esque rhetoric I've seen at other institutions so they must be doing something right.

That is why I oppose identity politics

You do realize that feminism is a tool used to destabilize cultures and societies, right? Enemies tend to fund feminist movements in their rival's territory to weaken them.

What is this EUIV?

No, it's IRL:IV. George Soros for example, enemy of the West, funded FEMEN (a feminist group) until they tried to come to Israel, which he responded to by immediately cutting off funding.

...

Oh look, it's this Holla Forums garbage again.

That was a fake image user. That never happened.

By "the Wsst" I mean American and Europe.

i.imgur.com/K8ZUEtI.png

dailystormer.com/femen-says-george-soros-wont-fund-them-anymore-because-theyre-opening-a-branch-in-israel/

amren.com/news/2015/01/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur-civil-action/

...

...

suggesting I have a secret agenda hidden behind my argument
Because No, absolutely not. If I lived in a society with no sexism/racism/etc it would be great.
I guess the root of the claim of muh privilege is that I benefit from being straight, male and of European descent means I have an advantage in society in that I'm often treated better than another person from a marginalized group on average. I think that's a correct claim.
I have probably been less sexually harassed (although I have been) than a woman under similar circumstances and on average.
Someone with the same credentials as me but with an american-black name (something a prejudiced person would particularly associate with negative stereotypes) would be less likely to get a call-back on interviews for jobs. This has been studied, and on average it has an effect. This is the case even with people who aren't explicitly racist or even hold racist or ethno-centric views, I can think of times where negative associations with stereotypes (or even past experiences with a person of that particular group) have possibly effected my behavior.
But the idea that I'm afraid of losing status is absurd. In a non-prejudiced society, I wouldn't be treated any worse than I am now, marginalized groups would just be treated better.
Now, in a capitalist society, competition can mean that competitors being treated worse means I have an advantage. I'll admit that. But I don't advocate capitalism.

One link of three. I can post more if you'd like. The fact of the matter is that Geoge Soros stopped funding FEMEN when they tried to come to Israel and there's no getting around that.

that's literally the easiest photoshop ever. It's just black text on a white background.
I'll look on the FEMEN FB page, as I'm betting this post doesn't exist

Be sure to share what you find, user.

the links in the articles he posted don't go anywhere, seems legit

this article doesn't even fucking mention this
amren.com/news/2015/01/george-soros-funds-ferguson-protests-hopes-to-spur-civil-action/

oh shit

Big fucking whoop I post user too

checked FEMEN USA and FEMEN Isreal
Nothing

I'm black and I've stopped reading right here.

Where are Jews like me supposed to fit on the IDPol Left?

Lefty IDPol groups see us as white Zionist oppressors who deserved getting shot for having a deli next to a building drawing offensive cartoons and Righty IDPol groups see us as Lizard Bank people using blacks, gays, and refugees to create a anuddah shoah?

Why did that happen? I wrote "w h ite genocide."

wtf Holla Forums.

I disagree, while not overt, or direct. Language does influence development, or at least, how we perceive the world around us

It gives communication, and anything outside the bounds or inside the bounds of it are locked.

You don't really understand South East Asian languages, this would become more obvious the more you knew about them.

Let's use Vietnamese since it's what I'm accustomed to.

With variation among the five different dialects. Despite the mutual intelligibility. Lack of real identification to anywhere near Western languages is common, as is in part, most south east Asian languages.

The two can be mutually compatible if you strain it, but they are really, entirely different languages, born of different influences.

I don't think there's a natural drive to bring language into a certain set of characteristics universal.

Much evidence suggests totally otherwise. I'm either not getting it, or you're doing a poor job as to why my point is wrong.

Which being, creating a language devoid of identity would somehow create identity, when other languages focus far less on it than Western languages and lexicon.

Let's list the differences.

Vietnamese has no finite or non finite distinction, as morphologically, it does not use case, gender, number, or tense.

Among other Asian analytic languages, I do not see a possible way they can be related on their own, or how similar they are to other more Western languages aside from the fact of general communication similarities.

Unless I'm misreading your post, I'm not seeing it.

Yes, for about five minutes it took me to decide it's a bloody stupid idea.

I'm actually rather muh privileged economically (though it wasn't always the case), including benefiting from property laws, I just see the inherent injustice of the system on both material and conceptual level.
Not so for idpol identity relations.

Great! Most of the people are middle-class, middle-aged and not willing to put up a fight. You still need their hearts and minds if you want real change, because they're still the ones doing most of the work. The actual work, mind you. Not organizing strikes. Putting food on our tables and doing all those other things that make society function.

Being against fascism is a form of fascism.

Someone said that already, but great post.

—

Even the class-conscious people here keep saying that identity problems are indeed problems. I disagree. They're non-issues.

Yes, racism exists. Yes, sexism exists. They will continue to exist. And that's fine. Once hierarchical relations are abolished, they cease being harmful and become the individual's own problem. Arachnophobes don't go around harming spiders, they just fear and avoid them - so do homophobes, woman haters, and so on. A problem only appears when their phobias get systemic, embedded in state apparatus, its laws and procedures. Well guess what, destroying hierarchies fixes that in one big swipe.

That is not to say there aren't actual disadvantaged groups who need special help, like the disabled. Too bad they need actual fucking help, rather than a shield from being called names. And that is not to say there aren't bullies who go around harming other people for fun under whatever excuse they can find. Too bad you don't eliminate them by taking away their excuses, they just change excuses. And their excuses are increasingly indistinguishable from idpol nowadays.

...

You realize that Soros funds quite a bit of Palestinian human rights NGOs, ones that are definitely considered “anti-Israel”?

You realize, further, that the whole “foreign gov’ts/billionaires are infiltrating muh precious nation by financing left-ideologies” is what the Israeli government says?

Spook City here

What good can identitarianism do today, that pure socialism can't? Decades ago, true, there were explicit legal barriers such as sexual disenfranchisement and racial segregation, but all of them have been consigned to the dustbin of history, alongside centuries-old nonissues such as slavery and land theft.

The only legitimate issues that could putatively be described as motivated by idpol are all implicitly idpol economic oppression, where any idpol motivation is explicitly illegal, and all legal oppressive ability exists purely due to the legal allowance for economic oppression under capitalism.

1st-world feminism, anti-racism, and their ilk since the 1960s reminds me very much of Christianity's well-intentioned campaign against infanticide, human sacrifice, and cannibalism in the religions of its pagan contemporaries. Instead of declaring victory and folding up operations, driven insane by a millennia-long lack of legitimate targets, it has redoubled its efforts on wild goose chases against abortion and birth control.

Wow this is actually a coherent point for once, I guess my eyes just glaze over when you reddit space this hard. Why? It's so unaesthetic.

If Linguistic determination is legit then how did one whose first language was Vietnamese like yourself end up as an idpol loving American style liberal?

Because she's a massive pseud that won't admit when she's wrong.

Literally Symbollic cuckoldry

This board is late stage metastasis.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!!!

It doesn't take all that much power to lynch one man. What would stop the local racist from rallying a couple of his friends and lynching someone under socialism?

Have you ever considered, the internets is accessed by the world and the world is not 'Murica?

I'm European. 94% of my country is white. Don't project your American problems on me.

SOCIALISM!

Seriously, do you have no idea on what socialism is, or are you implying it will be the same as capitalism?

Even the shit that was USSR sent women to space and was against racism!

Here.
youtube.com/watch?v=P7qiVMgom8g

What is this then?

Seems like you are quite confused when it comes to the Sapir-Wharf hypothesis, you don't seem to be familiar at all with linguistics either(Because basically this is Linguistics 101) as you have claimed. So I'll break it down for you since you also failed to understand my post.

I pointed out what you were saying was linguistic deterministic, then went onto inform and give you information about the consensus in modern linguistics, the fact that linguistic determinism was highly discredited while its softer form "Linguistic relativity"(that language can influence thought but does not determine it) has not been discredited and even commonly accepted at that.

Then I went on to explain that there is clear evidence that humans can think about things despite lacking the words or grammar for it. That anecdotally, we invent things and contemplate things before giving them names by give you a example of this with electricity. To expand further, the Piraha can think about quantities larger than 2 without having numbers, the Moken can think about tomorrow without language for time, and to rephrase again, as English speakers we can have a distinct feeling of pleasure at others' misfortune, despite not having the word schadenfreude like German speakers.

People can have thoughts of things without having phrases/words of it in their language, so changing the language itself will not stop people from having thoughts about something at all. So going on about how a language is different is plain meaningless on this issue, because people don't need language for identity in order to think about it.

Look, as much as I am a fan of socialism, I'm pretty sure that just democratizing the economy doesn't just somehow inherently destroy all racism forever.

Are you seriously claiming that racism just didn't exist in the Soviet Union?

...

Am claiming it was far better than the US during parallel time periods.
You cannot be anachronistic about this.

And no, socialism is about SOCIOeconomics. Not just about "economy".
And socialism is not build in a day.

Nor in ~70 years in the case of Soviet Union, for that matter. I'm sure the victims of racism will be understanding when you tell them that they need to stop with their identity politics, since we might achieve utopia in the next few centuries if we just focus on class.

You called?

Yes, lets tell the victims of racism that we will help them by making posts on tumblr about racism and other pesky liberal shit :)

Actual violent oppression like idpol-motivated lynchings, kidnappings, and rape are statistical aberrations, in the same rounding error red herring territory as generic serial/spree killers, at least in the modern 1st world. They are completely illegal, harshly suppressed both by the authorities and the masses of private citizens, and have been so for many decades. In other words, victory was already achieved on that front long ago.

The fact that such acts are today largely indistinguishable in both impact and motive from generic criminal activity doubly debunks hysterical conspiracy theories like "rape culture" and "white supremacism".

Statistically significant problems that harm idpol subdemographics today include things like generational poverty, chronic unemployment, pressure to break families, ghettoization of crime, railroading through underfunded courts, decaying public infrastructure, etc.

Many instances of those things are still motivated by sexism, racism, religious zealotry, etc., but their means of execution (unlike lynchings and such) remain 100% legal, so their harmful impact is totally undiminished.

If the laws changed in a more socialist direction, this last truly harmful outlet for oppression could be stamped out.

Of course, it's either class essentialism or Tumblr blogging. Those are the only two choices on the table here. Great post, pal.

The USSR was way behind everyone else, Russia was a feudalistic shithole that took 60 years to finally achieve capitalism, by the time they reached it, a dictator derailed them away from socialism.

Am sure the victims of racism should start digging into why racism exists and who wants them as scapegoats for the economic crisis.

Or rather, there is materialist action and irrelevant fucking garbage, a libshit like you wouldnt understand

Grandpa and his family fled to the USA from USSR purges against "cosmopolitans", a mere generation after grandma's line fled good old fashioned pogroms by the Czar. Don't you dare tell me the Bolsheviks fixed any racism, especially during Stalin's reign.

Well, Stalin wasn't lynching black people…

Also, what class was grandpa? How did he view socialism?

Also Stalin ruined everything, your argument is invalid

THIS

>Stalin, and associates to the new theory of Socialism in One Country, which was anathema to many internationalist communists. Stalin emphasized a centralist Soviet socialist patriotism that spoke of a "Soviet people" and identified Russians as being the "elder brothers of the Soviet people". During World War II, Soviet socialist patriotism and Russian nationalism merged, portraying the war not just as a struggle between socialists versus capitalists, but more as a struggle for national survival. During the war, the interests of the Soviet Union and the Russian nation were presented as the same, and as a result Stalin's government embraced Russia's historical heroes and symbols, and established a de facto alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church'

Grandpa was 6, his parents were petit bourg shop owners. The Russian-Jewish side of my family have all been mainstream leftist Democrats with little engagement toward or away from socialism. Ironically, the Scots-Irish side of my family who have generally leaned Republican and been vaguely averse to "socialism", are almost solid union as far back as can be seen, are mostly proles, and include more farmers beyond a couple generations.

Have you ever considered that the only reason you are so pro-identity politics is that you're a part of an oppressed minority and you are afraid of losing the benefits given to you by it's discourse?

No, because I'm not.

thanks sherlock
Also no, theres a plentitude of reasons outside of a suposed personal persecution complex why I support communism.

No, stop pushing your america-centrism on the world

That is what communism is, dumbfuck.

Over Bering strait? Or did they emigrate to Israel first?

What did he ruin exactly?

I'm sure that's the case with many here, Holla Forums is quite reactionary at times, but for many others it is not about putting minorities' struggles on the backburner but simply being opposed to the shortcomings of identity politics such as neoliberal politicians riding on its waves endorsing capitalism (e.g. gender equality means women need to become CEOs) or how it reduces people to their identity. Ideally we should strive to fight for minorities' rights from a socialist perspective at all times.

What does this word even mean anymore?

It's a commie word for "backwards".

It never meant anything. It's on par with "progressive" and "reformer", since most any political agenda can be described as a regressive reform progressing from something else.

Trump's going to reestablish the British monarchy.

eh, no.

A reactionairy is someone who wants to go back to a former order. IE people want to have a ruling monarchy again are turbo reactionaries, and people who want segregation are also reactionaries. They are more far right than conservatives, who want to keep things as it is right now.

So Bernie who wanted to bring back New Deal and others who want to go back to pre-neolib socdem are, or various flavors of tankie today are reactionary whether revisionist or anti-revisionist?

Welp! Sorry. Gulag or join the proletariat!
Most Greeks in Russia had more or less the same treatment. Welp. They shouldn't love their money so much!
We don't discriminate!
All bourgies go to gulag equally!

Yes.
If you are a neolib ancap idiot, Bernie is reactionary.
If you are leftist, he is a reformist, but it's better than nothing.

I'm ashamed of all of you.

Reactionary means counter-revolutionary (acting in the interests of Reaction). Against (Socialist) Revolution, (Socialist) reforms, or any (Socialist) changes.

In the West the word got hijacked by the New Right (SJWs) who were presenting their liberal idpol crap as True Socialism.

No. Reaction means Reaction against Socialism.

Exactly.

For instance, "leftist" and "rightist" are simultaneously inclusive enough to encompass the primary political groupings that have existed since the terms were invented, and pretty unambiguous to any learned person because of their specific historical origin.

Even "liberal" and "faithful" are less buzzwordy and better grounded.

Did you ever consider that some of us aren't from the first world, and your petty identity squabbles don't concern us?

Yeah, a lot of you folks have REAL identity struggles enforced by discriminatory laws.

For all the shit they get Anfems are pretty cool

Reactionary predates socialism.

Broadly speaking, yes.

I'm talking about the meaning of the word within Marxist discourse (the one that refers to Thermidorian Reaction; Marxists consider Jacobins to be their predecessors, in case somebody is unaware of this) - from where it migrated to the Left, Left-ish, and - eventually - New Right discourse.

Other meanings are not relevant in this context.

Wut?

They are fine, if they are not crazy.

Color me surprised

Somebody is resisting my oppressive misolinguism?

P.s. my struggle for trips is over. Most unsigned stalin-posts here are probably mine.

ebin !kuvalauta was here :D come to ircnet

ps kommunismi is best :D and gorbatsov :D

There's a difference between fighting for the rights of minorities and then getting salty because someone said the word "retard" or taking pride in your skin color being darker or being prideful that you were born with a vagina.

All socialists want the former. Only New Left, at least semi-liberal progressives want the later.