Why do liberals like the fine arts so much?

Wew, those edits. Holla Forums never change.

I always raugh when people who were brainwashed into thinking hitler was bad at everything and literally satan try to rationalize his art away as being shit, uninspired, or even going as far to say certain little details in his paintings prove that hitler was literally hitler

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Because liberals are vacuous retards and the arts is one of the few areas where you can get by on hype rather than substance.

It called aesthetic, you fucking pleb. It the casualization of the arts for mere profits is reason what led to the degradation of art and let twats pretending that the picture of a cat anus is representing of the working man struggle against the unavoidable replacement by another human tool. Jesus fucking merit on a stick do I want to find you beat art into your fucking skull.

Surely fascists and socialists can hate on liberals together. It's like the one thing we have in common.

Quantify these categories and find a consistent theoretical framework in which just alluding to ideals can be an argument, you lazy faggot. You're otherwise doing precisely what liberals are doing when they signal virtues, except you do it with jpegs of oil and canvas instead of Instagrams of vibrators and Jamal's alimony.

Hitler's art was vacuous and shit entirely separately of his potatoid fascism.

if you think Hitler was a good painter your brain must be like a slab of concrete

Aside from your weird paranoia about communists which haven't been relevant since the 90s, I agree. Anything can be "art" nowadays as long as you attach some nonsensical meaning to the two purple lines you just drew on a canvas. It's fucking dumb.

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if your concept of art is confined to grim social realism shit please stop talking about art

Nazism doesn't really derive from Italian fascism so much as it comes from Hitler's personal insanity and the völkisch movement though.

That's the trouble with you commies… always trying to quantify the human soul, and reduce it to just another generic, replaceable cog in your inhuman economic machine. For as much as you accuse the capitalists of materialism, you all seem to be the biggest materialists of all. I guess that's what happens when you don't have religion - property becomes the only god to which you can aspire.

Just ghastly!

If it was trying to target pretentious liberals it'd play only the most modern and most experimental music.

Except pretentious liberals wouldn't listen to it, because it would be challenging in literally any way.

Bullshit. They'd nod along and talk about how deep it all was. If they didn't understand what was happening they'd not harder and talk louder.

If you consider this art, hang yourself.

That other dude doesn't know what he's talking about. In my opinion, one of the most pernicious aspect of capitalism is it's colonization of every form of experience. Art, something that is inherently qualitative, must become commodified because it's there where capitalism asserts it's power to quantify every part of life.

It's ok if you don't get it bro. You don't have to be ashamed.

son do you even know what "experimental" or "modern" fine music is?
Its not nice

youtube.com/watch?v=u_rwdmUQuZ0
And this piece by Wuorinen is easy listening compared to other stuff

I don't think you quite grasped that notion. We're not talking about "materialism" as in hoarding commodities and shirking culture, spirituality etc. We're talking in a generalized, philosophical sense, i.e. everything emanates from the material world, including human institutions like culture and spirituality. It's a recognition that the material has primacy over the ideal. In this sense, we unabashedly are 100% materialistic.

Do you have any idea how easy it is for some people to nod along and praise anything that'll improve their social status?

I have a hard time picturing anyone of the character we're talking about listening to this at a dinner party, unless they had a real hard-on for 60s sci fi.

No youtube? For shame, Holla Forums
youtube.com/watch?v=587O7tR_kAQ

Hitler's preferred subject matter (architecture and landscapes; there is speculation that he was not talented enough to draw people or pictures with people on them) and meticulously replicating textbook techniques wasn't artistically interesting nor radical enough to change the face of the art world, let alone get him into art school. He was also unwilling to evolve beyond this style, or take criticism; he thought it was fantastic. After losing his inheritance he became a sad little pol9k poster.

I believe you're thinking of Liberals. Marxism is literally based on a philosophy called dialectical materialism. Not everything left of the far right is the same.
I don't even understand what value these romantic concepts you name have. How do they improve my living conditions? How do they end the hoarding of wealth by some corporate fatcats whilst the workers get zilch? How do they end the control of the government by the rich? All your romanticism is meaningless nonsense to keep you occupied and distracted.

Nice esotericism, faggot.

If the base of human social relations didn't start at the economic space you wouldn't be getting butthurt exclusively at affluent capitalist Jews, would you? And you're here getting butthurt at quantifications within, which is all commie theory really does: contextualize. There is no "this is good/bad" judgement here (always dependent on prior notions and contextualizations itself, the basis of your idealism). Challenge your fucking brain instead of pussying out like this. Your first post ITT indicates you're better than that.

You cannot begin to comprehend how this is brilliantly unconscious satire, Adolf"
marxistsfr.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/index.htm
marxistsfr.org/subject/dialectics/marx-engels/anti-durhing.htm

This would be funny if it weren't for the fact that property is that which, whether you want it or not, shapes the very reality of religion in the first place.

This. Worship of commodities and philosophical materialism are completely different. I could see how he might be confused though.

This, pretty much

And this

It's not just a meme that liberals look like nu-males. But, who remembers what nu-males were called, say, 7 years ago? Hipsters. The "leftist" media feeds us with the idea that liberalism and intelligence coincide, or, conversely, that people who are not liberals are stupid. Thus, one immediately obtains a certain amount of intelligence points in this social RPG of ours by saying "I am liberal", and to get even more points, they then adopt cultural activities for the sake of the social points they get out of them.

They visit museums like Louvre and make sure to take pics and, naturally, share those in Facebook or Google+ etc. They buy tickets to various concerts, tell people about those tickets, and, when the concert is over, make a useless comment on it, for example "they played really fast" when the piece is meant to be played fast. They buy respected books to leave them visible and maybe open just for the sake of showing their guests they can read that stuff (I once read an article in which this one guy stated he has the Divine Comedy open on his table just to impress his friends, and this made me realize how common this is). They buy foreign beers and special coffee to show how mature their taste is regardless of whether they really like it or not. There are many examples of the pretentious life of a "hipster". Really, they are far from unique, and at least as far from deep. They are just sheep to their capitalist shepherds.

Why do you post here anyway, Holla Forumsack?

Fascism is a realistic yet romantic philosophy. We take the hard reality of the material world, and bring into it the higher values which spring up from the human soul. Art, love, beauty, even truth are qualities we humans bring into this world rather than qualities that come out of it in our absence. The beauty of sunshine falling across a mountain pass comes from the intersection of the natural and the human. Both are required to bring out their own being-ness to complete the transaction.

We are esoteric. The SS was more of mystical society than it was a combat unit. If you somehow lack the faculty to experience these spiritual phenomena, I think of you as something like a cripple. Not evil, but profoundly handicapped. And worse, unlike blindness, you don't even understand the common idea of what it is you're lacking.

I'm pretty goddamn mad about kampfy's little game last night and trying to figure out what to do about it.

Who's kampy?

A mod with a talent for inventing a great deal of trouble where there was none in his absence.

Christ, and I thought people here were delusional LARPers…

Liberal arts are the logical conclusion for "art for art sake" this bourgy notion of experiences to bought and sold is nothing but cultural capitalism taking hold in the globe.

The far left need to revive Social realism, and socialist realism arts and music in order to fuel a clash between far right mythic arts of barbarism and far left graspable realism of the ordinary man.

How would you want the economy run?

Its ideological base is what enabled its physical efforts. WEBM related, nerd.

I can experience. But better yet, I can experience them while every step along the way being conscient of the fact that ideology operates as a filter upon reality rather than assuming that this (in your case, more than expressively) esoteric filter needs to guide you every step of the way without turning around to quantify it.

You're fucking better than this, and you know it. The absences is here what bothers me, not the presence of laziness. Discourse, faggot.

Doesn't matter; fascists have consistently capitulated to big business the moment they got in power because they needed capitalist support to wage their masturbatory wars.

Speaking as someone with a degree in philosophy and who's taken a graduate-level course in formal logic - I embrace the irrational. Very few decisions indeed are actually made through the application of human reason. Instinct and emotion are our driving passions, and it's only on a very rare occasion that we actually sit down and logically think in a step-by-step, formally logical way. Instead of beating ourselves up about not being the perfect autistic machine - why not embrace human nature for what it is? Why not be irrational, arational, transrational, metarational?

Mostly capitalist but with community-enforced regulations designed to protect the commons from overpredation.

We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.
acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

Isn't that just European social democracy with Hitler memes?

I dunno, I'd like to see a lot more refugees in gas chambers and lying machine-gunned at Europe's borders.

not to mention the Jews. Genetic parasites shaped like humans to deceive our empathy.

Christ, I guess when you were slaughtering gorillians you forgot this line:
Be content and there will be no disgrace.
Know to stop and there will be no danger.
And all the other themes about doing nothing.

Regardless of any relevance here, how painfully ironic that you would invoke a man who is among history's first proto-materialists according to many Marxists themselves ("there is no universal path; there is only the paths we have decided or decided not to pave"), but even more ironic that would invoke his philosophy not so much on its content's grounds but so much as you do it on the grounds of an esoteric message you find in a verbose you cannot properly decipher or contextually.

A spider conducts operations that resemble those of a weaver, and a bee puts to shame many an architect in the construction of her cells. But what distinguishes the worst architect from the best of bees is this, that the architect raises his structure in imagination before he erects it in reality.
- t. garl margs

Really not digging the persistent absence of effort still.

I legitimately cannot understand why anyone would believe these things, let alone use them as some vague esoteric basis to support a real-world, actually existing political system. Thanks for showing me why we're on opposite ends of the political spectrum, I suppose.

Alas, German Not Socialism was murdered in its cradle and was never given an opportunity to go too far.

You are asking questions about the unnameable and then criticizing me for not giving it a sufficiently complete name. This is because you don't believe that there is anything that is genuinely unnameable, despite you, yourself, being it. Insufficient introspection is your problem, not the paucity of my explanation.

wew that Holla Forums buttmad. We can't even call ourselves by our proper name it's so triggering?

Because modern 'fine arts' entails no standard and thus no criticism. They are seeking an affirmation that they are in fact special and unique like they've believed their entire lives.

What sort of protections?

Remembering that Wagner was a lefty

The unnameable is the essence of meaning, not the structurally raised categories you and I decide or decide not to adhere to.

"Might makes right" and "historical necessity" are equally vacuous namings to justify ourselves if we do not make any effort in quantifying what they imply and what their implications originated from.

You have managed to translate "there is nothing we cannot name without justifying our own categories of naming" to "you say we cannot name at all".

How marvelously ironic. In many ways. Seriously!

The Germans shall live on, that is, if Merkel dies.

I'm starting to believe that Nazism is what happens when you turn fantasy roleplaying with Sabaton running in the background into a political philosophy.

That feeling of marvelous irony is what I'm trying to communicate. The unresolveable paradox at the bottom of it is the whole point, it's a feature, not a flaw.

It may already be too late if they don't unlearn some of their overactive morality.

Hm?

As a black person I can understand why you wouldn't want to live in a country of entirely black people, but try to see it from a white person's perspective. I'd really enjoy leaving my doors unlocked at night, eating great food, and trusting my neighbors as much as my own family.

You said
Other than gas chambers removing migrant labour, what would the regulations be?
I can't square capitalism with this volkisch mystic stuff.

We're on the same page here, whether you realize it or not. All I ask is that you not be a lazy faggot when adhering to notions and their justifications and resort to esotericist justifications for why you not only inevitably fail, but reify and repeat historical phenomena as farce instead of tragedy as before (this being illustrated by the fact that no application of fascist ideology, regardless of its pretenses, ever managed to only recreate what it already had and honestly wanted to change, but with simply a change in paint and pretenses).

Why do you use images of racial inferiors?

Why not? Capitalism doesn't care what insanity you believe in as long as you sell your labor power and purchase commodities.

Because of this.

Völkisch mysticism is the psychic foundation of life in the same way that regulated capitalism is the economic foundation of life. As for what the regulations should be, well, it looks like mere quantity hasn't been enough to protect the environment or keep people from freezing in the streets despite the surplus in shelter. We must cultivate a character in mankind that doesn't want to see those those things occur, as much as we must impose regulations from government.

Racial inferior? If anything, she's a racial superior, I think a fantasy character with as much conscious attention as been directed to her is probably some class of deva.

She looks like a Jap and was made by Japs. Or do feel the "honorary Aryan" crap was actually serious?

A pink haired, blue eyed Jap who can fly? My credibility is strained.

He unironically thinks not only that "Völkisch mysticism" managed to constitute and actual change in capitalism systemically in the Turd Reich, but that such a thing as pretenses and esotericism can really be all it takes to constitute any change in the prevailing functions of a society's base.

What the fuck happened to unnameability as future, but not as flaw, you lazy faggot?

Capitalism has no issue with the population being indoctrinated to believe nonsense. The fascists kill all the leftists and crush the unions in service to porky whilst giving him close access to the government. In return the fascists get to teach the population about their spooky ideas, which as our Nazi friend here just pointed out, are entirely immaterial mysticism which does not upset the functioning of the capitalist system. What does Porky care what you believe whilst you placidly you go sell your labor power to him and purchase commodities?

If you change the people, you change the system, which works a lot better than changing the system to change the people. Hitler changed the people from below, in a grassroots sort of way, while Communism tried to create a changed people by fiat and only ended up making them worse in practice.

Yeah, but when something is unfun as this its easier to dissmiss it

Altering the superstructure whilst leaving the base is fucking pointless.

Yes, that's why dogs are all the time giving each other bones in wages.

Assuming you've even done the former beyond just giving the mythical people a paint job, you have in no way ever managed to give me historical examples in which the system actually changed more than just, once more, a simple paint job: ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

If you don't spend at least the following 30 minutes reading PDF related you can go right back to posting jpegs of commodified gooktoons saved to your hard drive ITT while upholding classical European art as sacred while excusing it with ironic esotericism, Gunther. Get your noggin to work now.

Actually, as social animals, you could make some argument that wolves share kills in return for the shared labor of stalking and killing their prey…

I'll have a look.

End cultural autism.

While Hilter's piece displays a much greater technical ability than the other 'work', is by no means a good piece. The buildings lack dimension and the scaling is off. The figures are static and uninteresting. The use of colour and tone is boring, while some of the figures are placed as if in an early Medieval era or Byzantine work (as in not actually standing, but floating at the forefront of the work).

The point of private property is to sustain the capitalist signalling mechanism of price. Communist fell apart because even if the central planners had had good intentions, there was never a way to know enough about the system to know how many wiper blades are required, nor if it's more important to build wiper blades or combs. In a functioning capitalist system where price is set by supply and demand rather than central planning, as it is right now in the EU and the USA, it's a signalling mechanism to allocate scare resources.

Whilst you're here, care to explain why Slavs suddenly aren't worthy of extermination anymore? Doesn't that shift in the Nazi definition of whiteness demonstrate that exact racial divisions are mostly arbitrary nonsense?

That's probably a good reason to admit him to art school, eh? The foundation of talent is there, but, as you say, it could be improved upon. But his art wasn't "politically correct" in the sense that it didn't fit the style of Marxist art professors in the Weimar era.

Exterminating the Judeo-Bolsheviks is a different question than exterminating the Slavs. I find it hard to believe Hitler ever intended the latter. Czechs are Slavs, Lithuanians are Slavs, is there any evidence he intended to exterminate them?

Price is a characteristic of exchange's need to be quantified by a value, which depends on capital (dead labor). Private property sustains capital, and its endemic need to grow at all costs. This is the ultimate cause of globalization: capital pushed the threshold of all otherwise "local" (let's ignore colonialism and local expansionism for the sake of it, kek) limits of growth. "Globalism" is therefor and incomplete phenomenon without the critique of capital, and intellectually dishonest altogether if one knows about capital's systemic tendencies.

marxists.org/archive/dunayevskaya/works/1942/russian-economy/index.htm

FYI: you're on a thread that is on a board that is of the overwhelming belief that there is nothing salvage in 20th century communist movements, but everything to gain from digging into its tragic miscarriage. I won't spend an ounce of my time defending e.g. the USSR, but will spend many tonnes defending wherever I end up being able to the communist hypothesis.

Start reading that PDF and then get to the marxists.org text already.

Then why not Market Socialism? The markets are left intact but the private property of the capitalist which benefits only him becomes communal property which brings profit to all.

Kek. Any trace of Marxism in Germany, Weimar or otherwise, was eradicated by Freikorps death squads. Persecution mania fueled by the spook of an inability to accept a leveled critique. How do you lack this much belief in your own justifications?

I thought liberals only liked modern art like a woman having a period on canvas or something.

Well said.

What would be considered "degenerate" about Marinetti's art?

It's not a picture of a building.

Abstractism, surrealism and post-impressionism were all outlawed in the turd reich because they were growing disciplines in the Weimar era arts.

Don't ask me to quantify "degenerate"; ask yourself what "degenerate" implies and whether those who think it's an immutable and loosely thrown adjective were actually being consistent when they used it as justification for outlawing and punishing certain things.

P.S.: Picasso, granddady of the anti-realist and classical push, was a leftist with friendly and interested ties to the pre-invasion Marxist academic disciplines in France.

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Marinetti continually urged Mussolini and Hitler to stop in their destruction of the arts and culture. Marinetti attempted to protect many things considered degenerate by this time.

and that painting is not Marinetti

fucking leftist materialists and their squiggly lines amirite

also even tho the thing about libs and signalling may be true but i cant help but suspect that OP is a weebnigger resentful no one takes his infantile fantasies seriously

But that actually is pretty nice

I don't dislike, I actually love serial music but I also have studied music history and theory a lot.
Plus I don't think listening to it makes me special nor I try to push it into other people.

Nigga i am interested in how the artist sees the world, not what the world is

You're not even wrong. Fascism is te aestheticization of politics. There is no theory behind it, not anymore at least. The only driving force it has is the collected mass of sperm from random fucks masturbating over their "glorious God emperor" fantasies and WH40k posters and thinking about masses of dead people gunned down by men wearing spiffy uniforms. The reason nobody can ever answer when you ask what fascism's actual policies are is because, to them, those policies are just "Look cool kill brown people". There is no realistic basis for the "system" that is proposed because that system amounts to whatever any given individual fascist considers awesome.

Was there ever? I read the Doctrine of Fascism, those essays of Giovanni Gentile which were translated to English, and Codreanu's book. It was all very… vapid.

This thread has devolved into a shitposting war