How to debate right wingers?

That's irrelevant to whether a proletarian revolution must come from the proletariat - if it doesn't, it isn't a proletarian revolution.

Most people aren't class conscious and the ones that are class conscious are generally autists or obsessive compulsive sufferers. It's unhealthy. so are the spooks you cling to, OP

Already gave up on this as every time I irreversibly prove that capitalism is bad, they convert it into an argument of nationalism vs globalism.

One of the very few I managed to sway, I've swayed by proving to him that capitalism is bad and then convincing him that the world will be globalist sooner or later, and the only thing that is up to us is if it will be controlled by us, the workers, or them, the rich.

But even he didn't seem to get too much into it and though he was no longer a nationalist, he didn't really do much about the cause.

You can't prove capitalism is bad. You can prove an aspect of capitalism is bad, but I doubt you can conclusively prove the system is objectively bad, morally bankrupt perhaps, but as for utility, not inherently bad. Focusing on certain aspects of capitalism that are bad, in relation to the individual you're talking to, would work, but as for your proclamation that capitalism is entirely bad, it's just absurd. Similarly, you're arguing that a system of governance, globalism, is an inevitability, when in fact the only inevitability is the system in place as of current which revolves around post-colonial European hegemony. It's no wonder you're losing arguments as your premises are false. Argue with only the points that are true, if you're focusing on factual argumentation. Based on your responses though you'd likely have more success appealing to their emotions through inspired rhetoric.

What even? You can certainly argue that globalism is inevitability, it's like you've never read any of the leftist critiques of Capital accumulation. It also depends what you mean by "objectively" - it's certainly poor for everyone except the top bourgeois.

But I can prove that capitalism doesn't benefit the individual I'm talking to in any way. And as I said, that's the easy part, but then they either convert it into a nationalist debate, or throw a hissy fit because they don't know how to continue, and walk away.

Globalism is the tendency to achieve the united world instead of dividing it on states. Left wing seeks to achieve globalism through unity and class struggle, but right wing seeks to achieve it through class domination.

Which part of this is wrong?

First of all, don't expect to convert any ardent right-wingers. You can't convince someone who is committed against your viewpoint. Your only real option is to meme at them and argue with them until they eventually decide to explore things themselves (coming with arguments that don't entirely oppose their viewpoint helps). Once they start opening up and asking genuine questions, that's when you can convince them.

Second, there aren't really as many 'real' right-wingers as most people think. Most of the people who vote right-wing are older people with no real ideology, and at least where I live I've found that they're very open to socialist arguments and ideas so long as you don't mention the word socialism.

In short: Don't expect to convert the nazis, focus on the racist uncles.

Socialism offers no solutions. We all know fascism ends badly but maybe what comes after will be salvageable. Ron Paul was the last hope. I just saw Trump say e wants the 'empire' stronger, not to collapse. Yes. Empire. Congrats Hill-shills and condescending liberals the world over. You've earned it.

Orly? Explain.

There's a reason nearly every single Communist or Socialist nation failed, and it's people wanted to escape to Capitalist nations because left wing ideologies are delusional as equality can never be achieved.

Not 30 million, The Soviet Union estimations start at 50-60 million. That's excluding Best Korea and China and such.

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You are the reason this world is dying. Read a book and learn what communism is. You're going down a dark path that will kill you and your family.
You stupid fucks.

die

Cunt's post removed, typical left wing censorship. Tsk tsk

I refer to the wise words of Trotsky.

They love being told what to think.

youtu.be/jlWp32BS2QI

I refer to the wise words of Winston Churchill.

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Some, but not all right-wingers have no real ideology other than simply hate the left and keep the status quo in place. No amount of arguing can reach them as their existence is perpetual trolling

And nationalism killed nearly 10 million in China (Japan), Hitler killed 11 million.

In the name of capitalism, untold numbers have died. United States killed almost a million innocent civilians in Iraq alone. And for what? Most likely resources. Then think of Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Vietnam, Hondorus, ect. Harder to measure since it is indirect but it adds up. Not advocating for killing people, but don't act like you or the US is any better.

lol ok guy

What was your message?

Deaths due to war is different than purging your own population for simply speaking out against you, and that's what Communism does. You purge those that disagree.

Hitler killed 11 million, communism has killed 93 million in the 20th century alone.
Shit happens you can't be guaranteed to not kill them if you want to kill ISIS can you?
Do you want ISIS to live? You probably enjoy being ass raped by them anyway.
Civilian deaths in a separate country during war is nothing to do with capitalism. If you can't understand that, you're not too smart

Don't remember, I'll think about it.

Found the image I screencapped

Face to face.

Because the logic of communism lurks near the logic of Not Socialism.
Frankly I view all totalitarianism as right wing.
Libertarianism as left wing.

Somehow that distinction vanished.

It takes a lot of force to force equality and such, whereas if you encourage individualism and capitalism with freedom things can progress, Socialism and equality goes against nature.

Turns out they deleted both.

Is Holla Forums deleting Holla Forums shit?
God dammit, the mods are trying to turn both into echoboxes.
It's like they want to maintain the distinction, like they are at war at making the two distinguishable.

I just want as much of the truth as I can get.

Try shaming them. That seems to work wonders.

I've never seen any left wing "Safe Spaces" in Holla Forums get deleted. You can find more freedom of speech in Holla Forums rather than here.

I don't think they are, usually you just see the Left wing person say something and then you get
DIE COMMIE DIE
FUCKING DEGENERATE SCUM
DIE
NIGGER LOVE
CUCKCUCKCUCK
I don't go on pol often enough to see things being deleted though.

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Regarding OP's question, this is how you *don't* debate right wingers.

I'm guessing you refer to the Bengal Famine? The food was needed more by the British Army during WW2.
Everyone was drunk back in those days
Come on now? Pulling out the racist card? If the Indians can't protect themselves they deserve to be colonised
Far from it

I have, there are some threads that are bumplocked.
Actually, most of the time they are neither left or right. Which worries me.

Some stupid people do that, the smart ones hate those posters.
*Tips fedora*

Agreed. Same goes for Europeans right Abdul?

Yeah, I also find it annoying. Instead of arguing and actually having a civilized discussion they just throw insults acting like faggots while calling the other people faggots.

He is fucking right.

That's what worries me, the current "left" is not really left at all, it's just an alternative moral method to the "right"

It's why we are finding actual satanists mixed in this bullshit. It's also why this board doesn't quite fit with "them". Communism aims to build the best society. Anarchism wants freedom from moral restrictions. The "left" just wants to legitimize the destruction it is causing to the nation. It's simply an abomination.

This is why i'm hoping people come to their senses and stop Islam in it's tracks instead of going
Pic related

Mudslinging is fun in small amounts, but when the thread is 90+ posts of mudslinging it's just cringy and annoying. You come to threads to seek information, not see "you're a faggot" everywhere (unless it is done right :^) )

If you don't want to see "die commie scum" don't create a leftie safe space, make a thread asking about specific topics and swallow the red pill

Yeah exactly this. It's pretty fun for about five minutes but when you're doing this for an entire day
Actually happened before.
It's a bit fucking stupid. I enjoy arguing against Lefties occasionally instead of reading cuckcuckcuckcuck all the time :

Real, practical solutions. Memes of production is an outcome not a strategy. How do you take means, how do you coordinate on a global scale to stop a porky backlash? What happens after I've taken the means of production? Who is my boss?

Without some kind of common strategy all you'll do is go in, smash a lot of stuff then in 50 years time call somebody a revisionist and blame them for 'Not Real Socialism'.

If a solution is designed to address a problem (inequitable distribution of the worlds production) then I don't see how simply calling yourself a socialist is that solution. You need to present solid, practical, coordinated and localised solutions to today's conditions.

If you think I'm sitting the bar high here consider how many times you've said 'that wasn't real socialism' and how often the guy trying to do it would have disagreed.

So untrue. Holla Forums went about deleting all DIY, SAFETY SQUAD threads on Holla Forums

Fighting fascism doesn't make you a fascist. That's liberal nonsense.

The thing is, sometimes we swallow "the left's redpill"
Sometimes the redpill comes from ambivalence between the left and right.

First of all check out if the debate is made in good faith or not. If don't, in the end it is just two nerds trying to boost their own egos, so you shouldn't even try.

Why?
It's almost like they really were recruitment centers..

Depends, they seem to think "fighting for your movement or ideology, etc" is exclusive to fascism.
Fact is, any movement can do this, but you then use it to protect your ideology.

So liberals are using it to protect their own destructive memes..
Odd. They're like a suicidal teen trying to run from the people trying to pull them from the ledge.
Very odd.

Not just that

crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/13/the-trial-of-winston-churchill/

He lived in luxury while the workers across Britain and the empire starved and fought wars to satisfy his bloodlust

He hated pretty much everyone who wasn't an Anglo or a powerful elitist. That logic is what capitalists use to get you to kill your fellow worker.

Fascism is a very particular ideology.

marxists.org/archive/murphy-jt/1935/x01/fascism.htm

No it does not. Sometimes the most effective modern way is found in the past.

And "irrationalism" is simply "choosing to die rather than live"
To seek a goal, then choose a method that does not get you to that goal purposely. The goal is found in every ideology.
Effectively - it is "wrongthink"

But if the goal is life
The only irrationality is to act in a way that chooses death

i've just about given up debating with actual hardline fascists

when it gets down to the moral issue of carrying out genocide it's like they're robots or something. just utterly disgusting

National Socialist here.

There is no debate. You're useful idiots for the Jews. The elite are majority Jewish, political or economic.

If you're looking for real, practical solutions, then Holla Forums isn't the place to look them. There are plenty of people and leftist organisations around the world trying to create real, practical, socialist solutions, but they're organising in the REAL world.

Yes, it's not like the jewish boogeyman is just part of the global capitalist elite or anything…

Which is what I'm saying. You leftists are misidentifying the problem.

Do they retort or do they spout groupthink?

You see, this is the problem, the jewish elites are using "anti-semitism" as a term to hide behind.
While the left culls the 1%, the jews are untouched do to guilt. I'm beginning to see why stalin may have had issues with jews.

It inevitably reverts to this shit.

They'll meme you, call you a Jew and be done. I'm at a loss for words with these people. It's like they lack any sort of basic empathy, common sense, or decency.

Thanks to the internet, I fear this shit could spread even further. There are people I know IN REAL LIFE who spout Holla Forums memes. Dark times ahead.

All genuine leftists oppose Israel, I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Chomsky, a jewish intellectual and Left's darling, shits over Israel all the time.

Please read more.

Perhaps, but fascists adore tradition for tradition's sake. To preserve hierarchy and class society.

the far right and Holla Forums love Israel deep down.

I meant liberals.

Both the right and left hate Israel it seems.
Can't catch a break, so they deliberately try to divide the two to slow down the progress they make :^)

As more and people get their worldviews from the internet, we're going to see absolutely crazy shit passed as real politics.

Is there even a plausible solution? Alex Jones is a mainstream outlet now and it's just going to get worse

Facism maybe, but Nazi wants people to push for the top. That's why it's economy was pretty strong. It tries to give the best functioning step ladder for that. Pure capitalism does not do this efficiently, so people are left puddling at the "bottom". If a person cannot physically strive for the top, then he needs to find his place as a cog - not sit out of the loop like in capitalism.
Facism takes that too far and does something "jihad-like"

Kojima was right again

youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA

...

You mean people are going to live for once in their lives instead of remaining cattle?

Almost like you lot are full of shit and wrong about everything.

It's kind of horrifying how Metal Gear Solid is the peak of modern intellectual honesty.

that's the day of the rope and it a good thing.

lefties and their jew handlers will all hang.

If people are radicalized with Holla Forums shit before we can even build a proper opposition, then what? They'll put us in camps. Look at the current composition of the US military, god forbid it ever came to that.

Have you even met any Jews? God what's the matter with you fucking people

lel, you've been ranting about this for decades

I'm beginning to think that the left-right spectrum is a new manifestation. That said, I believe Holla Forums is encouraging debate, not that the mods agree.

Alternatively, wait till you get a personal spaceship and then flee :^)

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They fear genocide.
And rightly so. So I have to ask what you mean by "common sense" there

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Common sense is pretending Jews are innocent victims, or that communism actually works.

Protip: nothing structurally stagnant works, you need flexibility.

I'm not seeing the relevance to my post.

You cant, most of Holla Forumstards are completely lost, right wing people in general are often very close minded and cemented in their world views no matter how wrong they are.

The reason this has happened is because of human nature, it leads to a need for control and understanding that also has a severe fear of ignorance which leads to people jumping to conclusions.

For example in ancient times people believed that thunderstorms were due to gods, we know this is wrong but the thing is for the vast majority of humans, they will always choose to believe in some bullcrap than admit they dont know.

That in long term leads to a very close minded and ignorant way of thinking, they try to simplify the world, man likes women, women were dresses, men were pants and other similar stupidity which causes conflict the moment someone deviates from that "norm". You might feel in control if you tell yourself you know how the world works, especially when all your conclusions seem to be great for you and bad for "different people".
And when you have closed societies and shitholes like Holla Forums reinforcing such close minded beliefs it becomes cemented, and NOTHING you can say will get through because their beliefs are cemented, if he was to admit he was wrong and change he would have to tear down all those walls and rebuild from 0 and humans are terrible in this hence why denial exists as a defense mechanism. Only solution to this is focus on teaching psychology to people, the dangers of human nature and its trap and the huge importance of having nothing sacred or unquestionable and that one must remain flexible at all times.

The main threat the world currently faces is ignorance, people found the perfect excuse to stop listening to the media, to the point they immediately disregard them when the media says something they dont want to admit such as the viewers being the problem, what idiot would admit that he is the problem? So it is a lot easier to ignore that and take your "facts" from all those new """news""" sites who are made to server those retards by telling them they are great and using them for their own goals.

And that is also why conspiracy theories are so prevalent, even though anyone with a brain can see why a conspiracy theory is false, because often times it literally answers every question someone has, and the world doesnt work like that. It is convenient answers for idiots to feel in control.

The fact they lie about everything and have been caught distorting facts to get Hillary elected?

Actions have consequences, who would have thought?

You faggots are doomed.

Keyword, everything that tells something i dont agree with with leftist propaganda :DDD
Better go listen to the propaganda that tells me nice things to myself

I disagree.
They lurk this thread.

We know everything about you from your indoctrination to your address. You can`t debate or win against us because you can`t say the same. Enjoy the coming years. We certainly will be!

They've been doomed since day one. Even if their mutlicultural revolution were to take place they'd soon get a visit from commissar Ahmed and commissar Tyrone and get their shit taken away in reparations, then they'd likely get sent to labor camps for being white men.

The ultimate folly of the leftist cuck is thinking they're gonna be the ones in charge once shit goes down. As Stalin has proven, that is not the case, all the philosophizing did not save Trotsky from a well earned death, nor did it for any of his comrades and fellow intellectual retards.

You cannot avoid simplifying the world. The world is infinitely chaotic.

ITT: a bunch of homos with no guts to act on their beliefs just moan and pretend they have any power or say in the world.

Yeah you can, instead of making up infinite small "this is how x works" belief, you have a general one acknowledging your brain's inability to ever fully understand the world which will result in you not being surprised or "disgusted" by deviance unlike right wingtards who ll get all uppity over the slightest amount of deviancy, from women wearing fucking pants to homosexuality.

Their reaction to deviance is a good way to see if someone is close minded or not, if something surprises them, or they feel disgusted, repulsed and start making up shit about how "x deviance" is wrong you know you are talking to someone severely close minded.

If someone approaches it with understatement and lack of interest or maybe curiosity you know he has more control over his human nature's need to simply everything because he is flexible.

You're an ignorant fool. I trust at most 5% of the info from the MSM. The rest is purely fabricated to construe a narrative to reinstate it's legitimacy as a media source. If it began telling the truth, it would immediately tarnish it's reputation.

yeah Holla Forumsyps are pretty embarrassing

I can bite :^)

There are memes that build, there are memes that destroy.
You are a fool user, and you don't like admitting that :^)

I believe there is a reasonable threshold, but at the moment we are WAAAAAAY beyond it.

If you have to ask, then you're not ready.

why_not_both.jpg

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Yeah, minimum wage, syndicalism, 8 hour working shifts, no labouring kids, universal sufrage and so on, preached by the first international, were all a failure

Top kek, read a book Holla Forumscuck

Oh fuck off you cunt, it's hilarious how you types schizophrenically shift from claiming the achievements made by social democrat moderates as "really" far Left achievements, before blaming social democrat LIEBRULS for stabbing the REAL Left in the back whenever "revolution" was on the horizon

Or certain segments of the population are starting to realise that almost the entire "mainstream media" is run from top to base by people that absolutely loathe everything they believe in and stand for, and seriously think the real victims of Islamic terror attacks are the poor innocent Muslims that might be victimised by racist xenophobes after - not, y'know, the blood-splattered corpses that actually died in the attack

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Read about the history of the labor movement that achieved all that. They were not social democrats

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And it didn't ultimately lead to revolution because…?

We have more than enough statistical evidence at our disposal to stop pretending that gays are "normal people that just like members of the same gender".

How many millions more are we going to spend on inventing drugs to prolong their utterly hedonistic self-obsessed sex binges? With the number of STIs and other infections they rack up over a lifetime they're basically walking fucking petri dishes

Lol, read a book cuck

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Because they grow older and died?

Again, read a book, cuck

I'm sorry Holla Forums but the far Left hasn't had a good insight on anything since the 19th Century (except possibly the Society of the Spectacle)

Everything since has basically been inventing one excuse after another to justify why "class warfare" didn't escalate to the point that capitalist societies were wracked by revolution, ultimately resulting in socialism.

Or maybe they were much more moderate in their beliefs than edgy teenagers with no real connection to society.

Turns out revolution stops being a romantic prospect when you have a family to look out for, huh

Just because you are unaware of it, does not mean it does not exist

Sure we do lol

Or maybe not and you are clueless

Useless without empirical data to give context. You can twist numbers to mean literally anything.

Who the fuck is "we"? Who is "inventing drugs"? Why do you even care about STDs in people that don't fuck women? I don't know where you are going with this.

Dont bother with Holla Forumstards, they lack control so they love to jump to conclusions based on the smallest statistic

Statistics at this points is just a tool for them to say "x is bad cuz statistics of bad thing happens more often there, no need to research why or how". Their brain doesnt care about research or truth, they just want to jump to conclusions that will supported their close minded beliefs and ignore anything that doesnt.

Until you achieve gay space communism we all bear the burdens of homosexual behaviour from the demands their irresponsibility places on the healthcare system

kek, Marx made no allowances for resource shortages in his work. For fuck's sake, the guy thought industrial-scale agriculture was a good thing when clearly we have more than enough evidence that it isn't.

Seriously, it's some When Prophecy Fails shit.

nbcnews.com/business/consumer/most-jobs-created-2005-are-temporary-or-unsteady-n693631

Thanks, Obama!

Confirmation bias occurs with everyone, asshole. If you or any other enlightened intellectual on Holla Forums found any scientific evidence or data that questioned your preconceived conclusions there's a high chance you'll also find a way to either question its validity or interpret it as backhanded proof for whatever beliefs you currently hold

Lol, the paris commune failed on its own right?

Where have we heard that one before?

Oh wow, you tried to straw man my argument and ended up with a logical statement.
This is correct, one cannot draw a conclusion from this alone without any sort of context or meta-analysis, but you personally hate the subject matter so you assume everyone will come to the conclusion you did.

And what do you propose to do about it? Gay conversion is proven to be pointless and harmful and you can't stop people from having sex without a 1984 police state.
You really can't think of any way to solve a problem like this without persecuting people for something they cannot control?

Not if you have an open mind, are flexible and not a complete normie to be emotionally attached to his beliefs as a form of control. Not as much at least.

You on the other hand show complete blindness to that by jumping to conclusions based on statistics.

You are so blind you cant even see how ignoring the whys or the hows and just believing that the "differnet" people are bad really profits your close minded cemented beliefs.

That is why the internet has a big problem, people like you who instead of admitting their ignorance and their self destructive human nature for control you dont even see that and defend your idiotic emotion based behavior

Did I say I was advocating gay conversion therapy? Contrary to what you may believe, there are other courses of action outside "Let them do what they want, they're not hurting each other (well, except for when they "forget" to inform their partner of their HIV positive status)" or "Gay conversion therapy, and if that fails a bullet to the back of the head".

Yes, yes, everyone that disagrees with what you believe is a close-minded bigot, and despite the numerous advances made illustrating how prone all humans are to cognitive biases, you and those that hold similar beliefs have risen above your base human programming to understand reality - you surely wouldn't fall into a similar cognitive trap like those dumb kkkonservatives when confronted with evidence that runs contrary to your beliefs.

Wow, you sure proved me wrong huh.

We're gonna need a bigger fedora

What exactly do you want to do then? Cultural ostracism of homosexuality is literally the sole reason a gay subculture even exists.

The majority of people on the internet are INTJ (inb4 you know what) and those cunts have a really hard time accepting that they might be wrong.

Understand the how and why of homosexuality in the hopes that we can ultimately develop a treatment for it. The problem is that as you unwittingly point out any secular concerns with homosexuality have evaporated - so the only argument social conservatives can advance is the unfortunate "Jesus says it's bad!" one, which leads to things like conversion therapy.

Except gays haven't returned to "normality" no matter how much homophobia has collapsed in Western nations. Instead, homosexual activists have moved on to attempting to "redefine marriage" as the next battleground (aka "Who says I can't love my husband and spend my weekends cruising for anonymous sex?")

Lol, sure it did, considered labour rights and similar issues are now even spoken by the right wingers

Funny that you post hitler tho, considered he lost against a revolutiojary state

Your ideology posits that violent confrontation/suppression by the capitalists is inevitable in the struggle for overthrowing their dominion in favour of gay space communism or whatever. You really don't get to bitch and whine that they're being "unfair" in such a life-or-death struggle

The two biggest porkies in the United States, Charles and David Koch are both non-Jews. Hitler was a fraud who capitulated to big business of Germany - he had no problems with exploitation if it was being done by someone with blonde, and blue eyes. We want to abolish all of Capital, world wild.

Except being gay literally is not a mental illness and their higher rates of STDs, suicide, etc, are of genuine concern to liberals; idpol or not, these issues are recognized with good intentions. The liberal political establishment just doesn't give a fuck because it's never done anything for minorities of any kind aside from lip service.
Correlation is not causation.

Now you're just digging for reasons to be offended.

The Kochs are the perennial boogeymen of the American Left because they're pretty much the only American multi-billionaires that back "conservative" (well, libertarian) causes.

Seriously you can't tell me Gates, Buffett, Zuckerberg, etc are "conservative porkies".

The Koches do have far more direct influence on American life, though, if only because of their business choices.

Just because you turn "not true communism" into a meme doesn't make it any less true - it doesn't change the fact that Leftcoms were predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union due to the suppression of Democracy by the Vanguard party from the outset of the Russian Revolution. The "did Lenin do Marxism right" was not something the left picked up to brush off the SU after its collapse. It's why Lenin wrote "Left Communism: An Infantile Disorder", because Marxist thought is not some homogenous hivemind, ala fascism which can be as opportunistic as it wants.

Even the gay advocates in question admitted that the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was a political act, not a scientific one.

No, they're not. "We need to reduce HIV infections, but you getting hopped on poppers and barebacking fifty guys in a San Fran bathhouse is NONE of my business" is not "recognising it with good intentions", any more than preventing a 500 pound person from having more heart attacks but refusing to do anything about why she's 500 pounds in the first place is "helping the obese".

Any influence the Kochs have is exaggerated by liberals pissed off that they aren't spending their massive wealth on "improving schools" or "advancing gay rights' or w/e

Yet for a supposed "scientific understanding of the world" there sure are a lot of bitter disputes over the "correct" implementation and operation of a socialist society (or a society transitioning to a socialist society), aren't there?

So was its addition to the DSM. At the time of its removal the majority of psychiatrists doubted its qualification.

Some people are irresponsible and that is a fact of life. If you cannot accept this, you literally do not believe in civil liberty.

Scientists are even more argumentative and divisive than Marxists.

And I'm not saying "The Koch brothers did NOTHING wrong", just that they're the perfect boogeymen for the mainstream American Left - i.e. multibillionaires cynically pushing libertarian policies for their own advancement - and helps them feel better, in that they're still the valiant underdogs fighting against evil WASPy billionaires

I genuinely hope you all suffer.

So if you're who I replied to, are you the Nazi now shifting the goal post from "all porkies are Jews" to "Yeah but there aren't even many that Conservative ones", and then you go on to name two non-Jewish billionaires?

Anyway, Trump had a millionaire dinner some time in October. The Walton family (another Irish family of uber billionaires) donate almost exclusively to Republicans:
forbes.com/sites/katiasavchuk/2014/07/09/are-americas-richest-families-republicans-or-democrats/#402e0348717e

Of course, porkies do play both sides of bourgeois democracy and Mary Walton donated to Hillary Clinton. But this "le right wingers are the REAL anti-esbtablishment meme" is ludicrous. White nationalist don't donations because they're completely out of style, but if they were to fall back into favour I'm sure they'd enjoy an extremely profitable relationship with big business, just like they did with Hitler and just like they back Mussolini.

"Science" was not the same then as it was today. Marx's "science" is much more supposed to be its own logic open to inductiveness, as opposed to modern science that picks theories based on usefulness and explanatory power.

I live only by the grace of Allah.

And there's nothing moral about letting the irresponsible suffer of their own accord. Yeah, post some Stirners at me, but I don't think any ideology that leads to shit like "Yeah, my brother did die of a heroin overdose but that was his decision, I'm happy to live in a society like ours that praises FREEDOM and LIBERTY over nanny-state busybodying!" is healthy in the long run

...

The reason Marx called it "scienctific socialism" is because he was trying to develop a system of logic rooted in Hegel, whereas other socialist before him were talking about how one day the ocean will turn into lemonade and we'll settle wars by having pie banking contest.

wew xd epic

Sorry buddy we're taking over Europe. Fuck off to America if you like. Leave the women for us.

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No, I just get sick of disingenuous liberals pretending that it's only evil Rethuglikkans that are the benefactors of shadowy billionaires behind the curtain.

>Of the 50 richest families

See? This is what I'm talking about, when I mention disingenuous journalists attempting to frame and manipulate the data to support a predetermined conclusion.

We're talking about all billionaires here, and "self-made" billionaires almost inevitably trend liberal in their politics. But you won't hear much about it in liberal rags, because "Hey, they're spending their wealth on good (liberal) causes, so I'm cool with that"

*Read a book and learn what communism is unless that book doesn't agree with me on what communism is

fixed

See

mic.com/articles/98188/the-10-billionaires-who-run-america

Yes, billionaire families trend Republican, but if you examined all American billionaires I'm sure it would skew Democrat.

Also I'm not an advocate for billionaires, excessive wealth accumulation - contrary to the beliefs of lolbertarians - is corrosive to all societies, since billionaires pretty much have politicians on auto-dial

I am not saying we should never try to improve society, I am criticizing how you propose to do so, and in my opinion it's because you are too personally repulsed by homosexuality to express an unbiased opinion about it. Drugs are a great example to compare to, actually, it's this same mentality that led to the "War on Drugs" that was almost impressive in how much of a spectacular failure it was.

we're not liberals you nignog

That's the problem in a nutshell, and what beliefs like yours ultimately lead to.

Even pointing out that homosexuality might be behavioural problem is "proof" that you're a dangerous homophobic fanatic that wants to shove gays off roofs. And then it's only a short step to "the only reason you have a problem with gay marriage is because you hate gays, therefore there's no actual need to take your views into consideration".

Because - again - the underlying causes weren't addressed.

I'm not a liberal.

Okay, let's look at the top 10 richest people in the world

indianexpress.com/article/business/richest-people-in-the-world-bloomberg-bill-gates-warren-buffett-mark-zuckerberg-jeff-bezos-koch-brothers-2878601/

Bill Gates is a liberal.

Amancia Ortega is not open about his politics.

Warren Buffett is a liberal.

Jeff Bezo's supported gay marriage, but not much else is known about him. Other donations would indicate that he is a conservative: alternet.org/media/what-will-washington-post-be-under-jeff-bezos.

Mark Zuckerberg is actually not a "liberal" - his politics are hard to decipher. He has backed ads in favour of the Keystone Pipeline, bt has politicians ranging from Obama to Chris Christie in his Facebook likes section. We will say "unknown". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg#Politics

Koch's are both libertarians.

Carlos Slim has spoken out against social democracy, so we can say he's at least a fiscal conservative hollowverse.com/carlos-slim/.

Larry Ellison has donated to both Democrats and Republicans, but gave 14 million to a Conservative PAC and was a super PAC supporter of Marco Rubio's campaign. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison#Politics

Ingvar Kamprad is not open about his politics.

So out of the top 10 Richest People in the world:

20% are liberals

30% are socially liberal

10% are leaning conservative

40% are conservative

30% are unknown

So, if you want to respond to this please make it worth my time and actually back up your assertions with evidence. At least 50% of the people on this list are conservative in some sense, only two people (Buffet and Gates) are what you could call liberal.

Earlier ITT:

How stupid do you think I am exactly?

I just examined all billionaires and found it skewed fiscally conservative.

When looking at this list, about 50% of the people on it are Republicans or leaning fiscally conservative, 50% liberal. So it really evens out.

We're talking about billionaires in America. And if you got right down into their politics I'm sure they would overwhelmingly trend towards mild fiscal conservatism with social liberalism.

Would you be more likely to consider my views on homosexuality if I just dispassionately posted statistics like

nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/report-lesbian-gay-bi-adults-face-higher-substance-abuse-rates-n671876?cid=sm_tw

independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/drug-use-seven-times-higher-among-gays-8165971.html

out.com/news-opinion/2014/01/15/new-monogamists-are-these-men-depriving-themselves-gay-perk

cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/surveillance/incidence/

nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=0

Of course you wouldn't, you'd revert to "heh, back to Holla Forums with your infographs (which I'm sure are entirely biased and not representative of anything)"

Then when you combine that with the fact most millionaire families are overwhelming Republican, we find that the elites of American politics donate mostly to Conservatives, not Democrats. The "corporate democrats" are really an advent of Bill Clinton. Before that most of the Dems support base was unions.

They aren't overwhelming. Look at your own damm article from Mic, about half are Conservative (that one guy donates to both candidates but wants to cut pensions which is very much a conservative view), half are liberal. Then when you combine that with the families, you see a tendency towards conservatism among the elites. Back up your claims with evidence.

No, because you have also openly declared that any evidence contrary to your own views is politically biased. In comparison, I am not questioning the veracity of your citations as much as I am questioning the conclusions you derive from them.

To put it another way, you are basically saying being American is a disease because of obesity rates.

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The point I'm making is that the Kochs, Waltons, and other major Republican billionaire donors are used by liberals as red-team/blue-teambaiting, not out of any sincere concern with billionaires that have politicians on autodial.

breitbart.com/tech/2016/10/18/wikileaks-emails-show-facebook-ceo-zuckerberg-wanted-to-meet-with-clinton-campaign/

inb4

Well as the "fake news crisis" shows even the MSM agrees with me there :^)

I would make a similar argument, I think the current system encourages unhealthy behaviour on a massive scale. I just don't think a bloody revolution based on Utopian beliefs is the best way to solve it.

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or that these problems all derive from "capitalism", and that the far Left has any sort of way to dealwith them.

uh, k?

Lurk moar, faggot.

And the point I'm making is that is absolutely no different from what Right Wingers do with George Soro's and Buffett and that when you look at the elite class overall, they heavily lean Conservative. Keep back-pedalling though - or you could just admit that both sides make use of boogiemen.

And what does Zuckerberg wanting to meet with Clinton mean? It could be for anything - did he donate or endorse her campaign? No. I don't care.

Then why, exactly, do you think you will convince us when we disagree with you on a fundamental level?

I'm here because Holla Forums sucks and none of the /new/s boards are faster than one post per hour

There is no developed left wing ideology that says "after MOP are seized, everything will work itself out from there".

That's not even what utopian means.

I don't get it, you're saying it like it's supposed to be ironic, except it's not…?

More that human civilisation has been a never ending quest for societies to escape their environmental constraints before collapsing, and we've just had the luckiest run so far - and that thinking we can just SCIENCE! our way out of these problems into eternity is a really immature view (and eerily similar to lolbertarian handwaving of environmental concerns with "the free market finds a way")

Nazis today aren't much different then before, if a lot more cringy now. Whereas Socialists at least want to try something different now.

Uh oh, why do I get the feeling millions of people are going to die

user, you just described the very process of life itself. Trucking on for an undetermined amount of time is literally all we ever did, right down to the first few aminoacids in a primordial ocean, and all we can hope for.

You're not listening, you're just waiting for your turn to speak.

It's because the wealthy in their mind aren't conspiring, they've earned it from middle business or being a doctor. Likely they think this because the most wealthy people they encounter are these kind of people. The people who are much higher up, in the top 0.001% so to speak they never get to see or what they do.

A thing to always point out is the gap between the absolutely highest incomes (top 0.01% or 0.0001% or even higher) and the 1% who are also considered wealthy but are otherwise often normal people.

The thing with the 0.001% is that you can give very strong arguments against capital building capital and how in a globalist society these people can take full advantage of laws in any country to secure their wealth for their children. And these children will have proper connections to once again build capital off capital. The only real way to reset this process is a war. The 2nd world war succeeded in destroying economical barriers and created oppurtunity which Europe as well as the United States benefitted from immensely.

The reason this didn't took place in communist country in my opinion is because of a planned market economy. A planned market economy doesn't work in reality because there are too much factors to account for that you wouldn't account for.

Yeah, debunked jewish conspiracy and pseudo science isn't what I'd call "da troof"

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see

The jew stuff is so retarded that Holla Forums keeps on spewing that 4/pol/ is even kind of moving away from that retardation. It's much easier if they would spend any kind of energy towards making people aware of how globalist policies that have been made by the EU put the majority in an unfavorable position. Even if you take a point that is mostly regarded as being a goodjob done by the EU, education, it's easy to have a very strong argument against their intervention. You could argue that the bologna system is ripping apart education in countries because its easy to force a lot of bs courses that don't represent their credits. Or how the standardization is a poor thing for the students since grades and courses passed on their own are only a valid result for 6 years, placing a focus on getting degrees instead of certificates and a student progressively learning more complex matter.

Jew stuff isn't totally retarded though, it works similarly to colonial white supremacy, the House of Saud, or the Catholic Church, while being unique as each of those cases. Screeching "debunked" doesn't change an inconvenient truth, which doesn't mean all Jews are bad people, that's nonsense. But by refusing to acknowledge it altogether (while tending to be oddly very preoccupied with Israel, even though there's all kinds of other continuing injustices around the world) just doesn't make sense.

Commies are so fucking delusional
t. classical liberal

Do it right now with me. Tell me what's wrong, faggit.

I'm sure your probably a polyp, and islamofascism must be crushed like any other fascism.

Does anyone have the "Iris" ones?

Debate them on what? Show them what light?

You're asking for a catchall tactic for convincing a very vague group. What might convince a college "moderate" won't do anything for a reactionary, and nothing you do can change the ideas of an idiot (anywhere on the political spectrum).

If you plan on debating, you need to focus on specific issues and, most importantly, build your arguments for your target audience. Preparation and remembering that they don't have the same background and context to your discourse that you do are both important. However, it is very hard to change most people's opinions and the best you can hope for is probably to spark some interest in areas they don't already have strong opinions in.

This topic comes up on Holla Forums a lot if you replace "right wingers" with "libtard". Their answer is that you can't convince most people of anything and propaganda normalizing the "correct" opinion is the only method.[spoiler]please don't turn this into "Holla Forumsyp" vs "libtard" shitflinging.

It's like you can't deny it.

There is very little point debating committed ideologues.

Right wingers suffer from mass dunning kruger and are proud of their anti-intellectual bullshit.

The same with liberals, their fetishism of evidence and statistics, means that they can not view anything beyond the status-quo or recent past.

The best people to focus on are the average person that doesn't give a shit about politics generally, you need to show them that our views are better and will work for them more than the appeal to status quo of liberalism and the reactionary anti-intellectual nonsense of the right.

No it's, "look all these people are vaguely related genetically are in a position of power, this means they are working towards a conspiracy together". Kek, Zuckerberg is the only Jew in the top 10 richest people in the world.

White supremacy just a conspiracy theory too is it? Heard of structure?

Roflmao.

The reason leftism isn't persuasive is because leftist societies have failed to provide a better standard of living for people in the long term and right wing capitalist ones have. Leftists blame their failures on external factors or stuff not being REAL socialism, whereas right wing capitalists just create great places to live in.

I live in a rich capitalist country. True equality would mean me getting paid less and somebody in the third world getting paid more. I just have trouble believing the left is the solution when leftism seems to work better on paper than in practice.

Also Holla Forums does not represent the typical person on the right, they're more extreme especially on Holla Forums, more troll, and you can literally post a source and if it fits their biases they won't even bother checking it.

You have to understand the social purpose of the jew stuff too. It's not even primarily about anti-semitism. It's a combination of humor, and an ability to filter out people that are so politically correct they refuse to even CONSIDER that jews could be fucking us over. It's a way to offend people off of the boards that refuse to discuss offensive stuff.

That's how they get ya

Kek, the entire premise of the Holla Forums argument on Jews is that they operate malevolently in secrecy - this isn't comparable to anti-racist, who point to systemic and explicit racism to back up their arguments. The premises of the arguments are completely different, this is just like me going " "I don't think the moon landing was fake" and you going "Was patriarchy just a conspiracy to? Ever heard of structure?". It's a total non-seuquitur. Furthermore, white supremacy is an ideology - not a conspiracy. If you were to ask me if "Jewish supremacy" or "Zionism" was real I would agree completely - it's not a conspiracy. This is completely different from the Holla Forums, "Capitalist Jews own things therefore all Jews are somehow implicit in this".

Please off yourself ASAP, you aren't fooling anyone "not /pol".

Don't. Just show them how they fuck themselves. Then point and laugh at them.

Stupid old racist twats vote to destroy their own health insurance because racism:

vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/13/13848794/kentucky-obamacare-trump

Butthurt coal slaves vote for trump because dem damn libruls hates us! Proceed to lose healthcare and pensions:

npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/12/08/504823965/retired-coal-miners-at-risk-of-losing-promised-health-coverage-and-pensions

They'll either learn or die. Either way, they lose.

You just proved him right.

This is a complete and outright lie.

Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of people prefer living under capitalism and that free trade isn't an evil "JOOS" tier conspiracy?

Capitalism only improves the standard of living in the most exploitative of countries. Capitalism demands that there be a multitude of countries stuck at the bottom and only are ever allowed to develop further when it is profitable for the exploiting countries.

Furthermore, socialist revolutions have improved standards of living almost every time they've succeeded.

Because communist countries never tried to undermine capitalist ones.

This shit is embarrassing.

Probably the best example of a false equivalency one could find.

What is your standard of evidence for this? How can you complain about other people not listening to logic and reasoning when your entire ideology is founded on what is essentially subjectivity?

Most people prefered to remain unenlightened too, doesn't mean we shouldn't have moved on from the Dark Ages. Reality is hard.

Repealing Obamacare was one of Trump's most highlighted policies. The fact that you genuinely believe anyone voted for him without knowing that he was going to repeal it is outright cringeworthy.

Also, losing Obamacare doesn't prevent them from buying healthcare from a different company. I have no idea why liberals consistently conflate ending government services with ending all services in general.

This infographic isn't very useful without an explanation as to how they are defining "economic freedom" and how from that definition they are categorizing these quartiles. Do you have a link to the rest of the study?

Go preach to them, not me.

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Take your meds and go to bed, Pinochet

Fantastic, then.
The proles have proved time and again to prefer ultraconservatism, religious superstition, extreme anti-intellectualism, and a penchant for Capitalism and Fascism.

You're a faggot

You just summed up this entire board. Everyone here but me is some rich white kid fucking off in his mother's furnished basement.

Well, you wouldn't be wrong. A lot of people on here are NEETs or school/college students.

It has nothing to do with their age. It has to do with their parents' income. If it weren't for the bourgeoisie this board wouldn't even exist. It's just faggot Holla Forumstards who got tired of playing Nazi from mommy's suburban $200k home and decided it might be fun to play commie instead.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised, considering most people on here started their political views as conservatives, while most people seem to start with liberalism.

It is a neverending self-feeding cycle, even though it would be cool with the world becoming communist and people putting asides differences.

But, I look at the example of Japan… there is the question that communism still has not showed a functioning example… all countries that adopted communism have been marred with vast amount of troubles. And it is not a decision Japan can take alone anyways… if Japan was to go communist it would have sanctions on it for screwing with the international capital. There are other countries near it like Russia and China. Japan has to maintain those spooks to survive, even though I recognize it is spook… with the bourgeois of each country claiming himself and their subjects are best than other guy's subject.

Japan was dealt a hand and has to strive to make the best of it by trying to have as much as condition than the west or it would be caught in shenanigans of (rather, be utterly fucked by) US, Russia or even China now. I am talking mostly about Japan because it is close to me.. which is a spook in itself but we are living in a world of spooks.. the other option is adopting communism and essentially signal to other country's capitalist "hah loser called a quit! let's go fuck him up, hoard him idk"

And I am not even supporting for some stand or status, even if I have fallen to cognitive biases of feeling more than someone because country and heritage before. It is just general survival and not being trampled on, even if it means still getting fucked by wealthy conmen it still better than getting fucked by a foreign wealthy conmen. It is choosing for the least worse, or just how it is. It is just how it is.

All intellectualism is bourgeoisie retard.

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Most lefties are anti-israel though

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Start by not pointing out that you are a marxist, a liberal, in particular that you aren't a socialist. By not looking just like about any worthless piece of idpol shitter out there.

Then by not using the 'language' and just using plain terms to word out your arguments.

Like take for instance, you are talking about healthcare, or education and so on, and you could point out that private companies aren't doing jack shit for education or healthcare for the most part; that 'their' position in healthcare is literally letting people die in the streets and so on

Also use things that belong in their ideology, like christianism, to strengthen your points

lol

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And it shouldn'be just the way it is… when those refrain Japan from rising up to the task, to pit human against human. This is not how it should be… it should be comrades living with comrades.

The US has a lot of blame on this because they are the main ones to create this situation. Countries have to rise up to the task and there is not much that can be done, unfortunately.

No that's blatant gas-lighting. The only reason why the country is a good place to live for most people is because the left is constantly trying to keep the right in check. The left pushed for anti-slavery, the left pushed for freedom of religion, the left pushed for unions and reasonable wages and work safety laws, the left was pushing for gender and racial equality, etc. The general right wing "I got mine fuck everyone else lol free market" is the very thing that causes capitalist countries to collapse in the first place. It's funny how everyone kind of forgets the great depression, Enron, the 2008 housing bubble, the dot-com bubble, flint michigan, etc. that were all caused because of the principle that only profit matters.

Not only within the country, but right wingers have a tendency to fuck everyone else too. You brag that your country is rich and others aren't as if it's an accomplishment. You're country is only rich because it stole and bombed the shit out of everyone else. You exploit workers to produce cheap goods and start wars so that rival countries can't get supplies. Capitalism makes it great for the few and suffering for everyone else who wasn't lucky enough to get in on the ground floor.

Usually for all the wrong reasons though.

The Israel - Palestine issue seems to be such a complex one that it's very difficult to make effective policy that would benefit the people in that area. I'm fairly neutral towards it because both sides seem to be terrible.

It's hard to pinpoint the cause of a war being because of capitalism. Wars in the distant past (pre 1800) were often fought for economical gain or territory. It didn't even disappear in the modern era with the Vietnam war. The Soviet Union had similar stuff in Afghanistan. Estimates put the death toll of the Soviet - Afghan war of 1979 - 1989 at 2 million.

Look polyp, it is an assumption on your part that the concessions that capitalists have given to society were solely because of succdem advocacy. You ever heard of the Haymarket bombing? Or have you heard of the IWW? America has one of the most bloodiest labor history in the world which most proponents were socialists and communists from Eugene Debs to Emma Goldman. There is a reason why the Reagan administration banned members of the Communist Party of the US from joining labor unions. In order to weaken You had the most radical advocates for change now barred from associating with what have been many times their source of support.

Not so much now, but there had always been a real fear of a communist revolution back in the day so in order to dismantle such drive, it has been the backdrop of much reforms within the system to alleviate the suffering of workers and thus a communist threat.

You don't understand the fundamental objective and requirements of a leftist revolution to start making assumptions. Is it not apparent the massive amount of popular support and scale of such an endeavor? Get your head out of your ass and if you want to learn something then be willing to lurk more or post your garbage elsewhere.

This board doesn't know what it's doing.

Im sorry your parents didn't know what they were doing

You don't care to comment on the pic I posted?

There is no reason to debate bourgeoise propaganda

what is South Korea, Israel, Hong Kong, South America, UAE

you cant dude they are to good

So? Even pieces of shit are right, and what stops you to think that are your personal feelings

It happens to me often