How can we dissociate socialism in its raw conceptual from all its history
Do you think a modern socialism would be different enough from the form taken in the 20th century that would justify breaking away from even the term "socialism"
Honestly i'm fed up with it all and I just opt for slowly edging people leftward instead of working with socialist parties because it has so much baggage I don't ever see it succeeding as a mass movement if all the bad shit is still associated with it
And honestly, I don't give a fuck about communist aesthetics
literally "democratic socialism" if you had a socialist republic/democracy, with a constitution, there wouldn't be forced labor camps, secret police, lack of civil rights etc etc why does it matter that a autocrat trying to create socialism also killed people unnecessarily or out of incompetent management? so? we're trying to create a socialist society with open institutions and the citizens able to criticize the government. saying what we want to do would definitely lead to autocracy is a strawman, it doesn't actually criticize the position we advocate it's like slippery slope but even less rational, as autocratic socialism isn't democratic socialism with "more socialism", it's a different class of society. There are autocratic countries all over the world doing terrible things with capitalist economies, and democratic capitalist countries with human rights, so why can't there be socialist autocracies doing terrible things, and socialist democracies that respect human rights?
Alexander Robinson
when you try to avoid using the older terms, you look guilty. You're not going to avoid propaganda, just laugh when you hear it and correct the record.
Adam Rogers
It isn't that simple. People are convinced by propaganda more than anything else. I'm trying to convince them, I don't care if i win the arguement
Connor Bailey
then enjoy using "democratic socialism" and only making more bernies
Dylan Stewart
No.
Elijah Baker
I kind of like wolff's term a cooperative economy
Mason Russell
I'm not a fan of revisionism kthx
Anthony Garcia
Sounds fascist to me.
Stop quoting this hack please.
Jayden Powell
Hey guys, we're doing some cooperative imperialism! Time to spread cooperation to the middle-east!
Joshua Lee
socialism is an economic system, not a form of government. You could have: 1 party socialism monarch-socialism constituional monarch-socialism republican-socialism democratic-socialism anarcho-socialism (I personally have no idea how that would work)
Brayden Cooper
sounds like historical progress to me were those countries "free" anyway?
Evan Gutierrez
I know the "read theory" thing comes across as a meme but seriously, would you fucking hacks please read anything at all besides memes?
Dylan Nguyen
Well, it could be elective monarchy, with king ruling until his death and then nobility of the country electing somebody in his place. It worked for Stalin, didn't it?
Jose Davis
worker control and democracy is the most important thing for leftism as a whole, but this isn't capitalism. Check out the Incas (who this board should make normies and Holla Forums aware of and I can see how ancom would work but I don't see how ansoc would work. Although I'm defining the distinction between socialism and communism as socialism being more organized and remunerating people for work rather than just making anything available to anyone based on need.
Tyler Nguyen
read Bakunin
read Reform or Revolution
Carter Sanders
You could describe socialism to the average person and they'd probably like the idea if you didn't use the word "socialism". Similarly, criticism of capitalism is a lot more welcome when you don't use the word "capitalism".
In the Western world these words have basically no objective meaning whatsoever, it's literally symbolism. "Capitalism" = freedom and individualism while "socialism" = 1984.
Eli Cooper
"Let's deal with the symptoms and not fix the root problem" - socdems
Are you socialists or socdems? Do you think the bourgeoisie aren't either: -Going to call you socialists anyway -Change their propaganda to your new name ?
larp harder
Jordan Lopez
How the hell cooperation sounds so bad to you ultra-leftists?
Zachary Kelly
...
Lucas Price
Sounds like every communist excluding leftcoms.
Liam Phillips
Sounds like you're around a lot of liberals calling themselves communists then
Anthony Smith
I didn't say it was, in fact my entire claim was the opposite
Isaiah Watson
I include all the historic communists in my accounts as well. Neither Lenin,Stalin or Mao saw it as their duty to abolish currency, but saw it historically happening in 100 years after establishment of socialism. Anarkiddies were never going to abolish currency anyways(at least if you read kroptkin).
Daniel Powell
I think a cooperative based economy would be neat and should be tried constitutional amendment when?
Nolan Rogers
How do you see cooperatives not engaging in imperialism or trying to create monopolies?
Wyatt Price
This is not ultra-Leftism. Ultra-Leftism begins when you stop having material incentives for good work.
What you are suggesting is MarkSoc. Distinctly to the right of mainstream Communism.
Adam Brooks
So would you consider Lenin right-wing then?
Blake Cook
are you really this dumb?
Lincoln Morgan
What makes you think that Lenin was NEVER going to abolish NEP?
Wyatt King
I'm laughing at the fact you think him saying something is "right" of something else, you think that means "exactly right-wing"
Conservatism is left of fascism, are they /ourguys/???
Grayson Perez
I don`t think you`re getting my point here, nor addressing it instead of being stuck definitions…
Tyler Stewart
I'm not addressing your point because I personally don't know enough about Leninism to discuss it. I'm critiquing the way you act on here, straw-manning constantly and shitposting nonstop
Thomas Rivera
Are you using "revisionism" unironically? Jesus Christ
Lincoln Lee
I had no idea we weren't supposed to use terms you don't know about.
Get started here. It's pretty important that you know what this term means if you want to seem like you're intelligent. This is just one example of jargon you're going to have a hard time avoiding
Dylan Lopez
The term "economic democracy" is a good substitute.
Hudson Martinez
I'm aware of what it means. But abiding by Marx under all circumstances seems a bit dogmatic. Revisionism is good
Benjamin Wood
Revisionism isn't learning from past mistakes and developing new theory around it. That makes complete fucking sense to do and is exactly how ML and MLM came to be.
Revisionism is about trying to change the perception of old theory to match something else.
Julian Lopez
Rosa "Fuck Revisionism, Up With Communism" Luxembourg was a revisionist?
oh my head
Juan Price
by having a social democratic gov
Jack Lopez
Have you heard of France?
Gavin Rogers
This will never happen before you disassociate feminism from Planned Parenthood.
James Cook
I don't see the point
seriously look at any thread trying to discuss socialism on Holla Forums. it's a lost cause