Help Me Trust Leftists Again: My Family Was Tortured and Imprisoned for Being Bourgeois

Your country did invade the Soviet Union with the Nazis, killed half a million Jews, and your family lived a mansion. History is not kind.

Explain why Makhno wasn't a terrorist.

Explain why terrorism is bad

Makhno's army murdered innocent people, Mennonites, Jews, and several peasants.

See, it's always the authoritarian leftists that scare people away from the left. How often do people fearmonger about non-authoritarian leftism?

Literally all the time? The popular consciousness associates anarchism with destruction and chaos.

Which happens in any revolution. Again, I fail to see how this is unique. Broad statements like that are meaningless.
This is the SINGULAR point where you have something, but even then it's not black and white. The Mennonites had aligned themselves with both the German occupation and later with the White Army against the Reds and Blacks. The action in response was excessive, but was again still pretty minor in comparison to similar acts taking place elsewhere amidst the Civil War. You again fail to explain how this is unique.
The only sources that claim that Jews were specifically targetted were from the Bolsheviks, and they lobbied just about every claim you can think of against Makhno, regardless of whether some of those claims ended up being self-contradictory.
That's so vague. Again, your dealing with revolution: fatalities happen. The Ukrainian anarchists were made up of and fought for the peasantry, so it's rather absurd if you're trying to claim they were anti-peasant.

Now I'm not going to imply that Makhno was a saint; he certainly was not. But if you're trying to imply that the Ukrainian Free Territory was some sort of anomalous pit of cruelty and suffering during the Russian Civil war, then you're either being flagrantly disingenuous or just plain stupid.

because the reds and whites were squeaky clean

Delet this I'm trying to shit on tankies.

Also there were reports by ACTUAL Jews of being terrorized.

Well gulags aren't fun but ganking all your shit was 100% okay in my books. If you're a porky then you have to give up your MoP, simple as that.

typical anarkiddie

There were a handful of incidents (mostly either looting or one case of targeted aggression due to a Jewish community supporting the Whites), but all of them were not under Makhno's oversight, the perpetrators were punished, and the consequences of violent action against Jews clearly stated from then on out. Makhno had on multiple occasions stated his explicit stance against antisemitism/progroms and his actions seem to back up that claim. You seem to attribute every happening under the Ukrainian Free Territory as being by his direct order as well, but the whole system in place there was explicitly set up so that WASN'T the case. There were a number of progroms that did occur in the Ukraine mind you, but they happened under the Ukrainian People's Republic, which was not the same entity as anarchist Ukraine

I say again, are you planning on presenting something that was actually UNIQUELY bad?

Trotsky propagandists GTFO

Yeah and there were reports of ACTUAL soviet expats claiming the USSR was da secound shoah oy vey remebah dah 6 million ukrainians who starved pay no attention to my family's farm mansion and our servants

...

Cry me a fucking river bourgeoisie scum

I we at all concerned that this attitude will scare away the next Kaganovich?

Has it finally happened? Have you finally abandoned your failed 20th century Maoism and adopted it's more practical 21st century successor: Juche?

I actually don't know a whole lot about Juche

(just for the record I'm a MTW)

The left is dead in the first world, you have nothing to fear.

You like chain ganging peasents and not industrialising?

"Anarchism" is shit and always fails.

What happened before WWII ended?

Did some Romanian soldiers burn down his house and killed anyone who tried to escape? How petty of him.

In good old times your family would've gotten guillotine.

Source.

Compared to White-held territories - no. But "there were worse people" is not much of a defence. Especially, when the plank is as low as Ungern.

Preface to the 1872 German Edition I believe. Many of the principles laid out by the Manifesto remain true in terms of its outlining of basic Marxist analysis, but a lot of the practical "blueprinting," some of the historical analysis, and a fair bit of the future predictions proved inadequate by that point. That sentiment was re-iterated by Engels in later versions.

Also my point about the Free Territory was that it was still fairly good, but not immune to the demands and problems that arose everywhere in Russia during the civil war.

> However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever.
I dare say this is explicitly not "admitting that it was essentially a historical artifact".

That's a lot of vague statements there. IIRC only the problem of French Royalists became completely irrelevant by that point.

While Thunderdome-style Feudalism is better than a murder cult run by a Genghis-khan cosplayer, I refuse to call it "fairly good".

And your point was that UFT was something people should consider a good example of Socialism. I disagree.

Engels says that Section II is a historical artifact.

He is not saying that the section is completely antiquated.

Only some parts - not the whole of - of one section being no longer relevant do not make the whole Manifesto "historical artefact".

For god knows what reason they thought being a porkie was part of your DNA, probably really shitty Freudian psuedo-science nonsense.

Basically everyone these days in the first world has some link to being Porkie, be it Superannuation (retirement investment plans), 401(k) holdings etc etc. Also people today en mass own their homes and some sort of productive asset, be it a computer, phone, printer etc etc.

So there is literally no way or reason to mark people as Porkies and then persecute them beyond collectivizing or cooperatizing the private property (business) unless they come out as outright reactionaries and join a resistance or whatever.

Hereditary marking someone as Porkie was and always just a load of shit. If these retards had their way, Marx, Engels and Lenin themselves would have been barred from participating in the economy.

lol

look, in chile women were raped with fucking dogs and foced to have sex with their familiars and then killed the babies from these relations.

atrocities will eventually happen in every case, so you better join us not because we're less violent than you think, but because we are right.

They didn't.

They basically did. People were marked for generations if their ancestors were landowners or whatever and were barred form certain jobs, joining the party etc.

i thought you are left… typical communist retard dont even know where to sit

read a book that consists minimum ideology.

i don't mean that,

even though right communism do exist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Opposition

Sorry that happened to your grandparents mate.

Once the chaos of the revolution is over, we should respect human dignity and only punish those directly responsible, proportionate to their crimes.

But ehm..

Fuck stalinists and fuck rapists. Public officials abusing their power and raping civilians should be punishable by some good old hand-chopping tbh.

I wish leftypol would genuinely realise how awful living under the iron curtain was for most people.

foreignpolicyblogs.com/2009/11/03/better-red-than-unfed-a-survey-of-post-communism/

Cold War propaganda bullshit.

Children were exempt from the "sins of the fathers". There were even specific provisions being made for this - since the 30s (children of kulaks), at the very least.

For example, Gorbachev, who got the highest post in USSR:

That's kind of a shitty poll. It's comparing apples and oranges. Over time, technology develops and gets distributed. It's been decades since "communism" fell and since then there have been developments to improve standards of living. "Communism" now would be better than it was then.

mahkno told his army not to kill peaceful jews

The cause isn't communism it's authoritarianism. The same would have happened in a fascist regime. Leninism, Maoism, and Trotskyism are poor implementations of leftist ideas.

you don't understand
'communism then' would be better than capitalism now

give us one example of non-authoritarian revolutionary politics

It would but not to the same degree that "communism" now would be. The poll skews in capitalism's favor by virtue of it coming later.

i misunderstood
you are correct

When did authoritarian communism magically disappear?

Anarchist Communism not Marxist Leninism.

You got bad reading comprehension, worse is saying that things are worse NOW, not worse under communism. Hence the "better red than unfed."

I think you can trust the anarchists and other assorted leftists here when they don't advocate for this
but who is to say whether they would be able to maintain control of a hypothetical revolution and prevent these atrocities
anarchkiddies tend to get curb stomped by authoritarians

see
I'm saying that a 1:1 comparison would make communism look even better.

UFT was set up as a system of free soviets, not "WITNESS ME" tier perpetual social chaos. In that sense, it was not that much different than the rest of Russia, just without the oversight and domination of the state over said soviets. Sure, it wasn't industrialized to the extent some parts of Russia were and it probably would have lagged behind even if it had survived because Makhno and co were absolutely spooked over industrialization, but it managed to achieve socialism, which is more than can be said about the Bolsheviks and most of the states that followed them.

how many people would your family have killed to defend their 'property'?

Your "free" "Soviets" are an euphemism for "Soviets free from Communists". It was forbidden for Bolsheviks to join Makhno "Soviets", while actual Soviet deputies were hunted by Makhnovites and often murdered - because it was decided by Anarchists (Nabat conferences in 1918-1919) that True Anarchism could be established without transition state - which is why Bolshevik Statists were recognized as enemies.

Guess who was in charge IRL. I'll give you a hint: five letters, first and last are "k".

What happened when Makhno had taken Yekaterinoslav? Everybody got drunk, that's what happened. There was no defence organized and the city got overrun by Whites without any resistance.

You know why Makhnovites did not control cities? Because they were unable to defend cities.

No, I did not watch new Mad Max and you reference is lost on me.

Bolshevik North was qualitatively different. Sure, they had their troubles (no food from the South), but there was a semblance of order. You didn't get murdered by gangs of criminals/anarchists as often as in the South.

Makhno's Free State was "not that much different than the" White-held territories, not the whole of Russia.

What "state" would that be? Administration is not "domination of state". You actually need people to manage railroads and factories. Steam engines don't fix themselves, nor does coal and other supplies appear out of nowhere. People have to be fed and food had to be acquired somehow: either through some sort of taxation or through trade - and this means you have to offer something in return. And this means that you have to manage Light Industry on top of whatever you already trying to deal with.

North would starve in a month if someone tried Makhno's "supply yourselves, but give me free rides" approach.

Makhno didn't have administration to organize proper industry - he could only let Capitalists handle matters themselves. Even when he had taken over factories, he couldn't use them - only take whatever factories had at the time.

That's why he didn't (and couldn't) expand: he had nothing to offer to people.

Anarcho-Capitalism is not Socialism. And that's all Makhno had achieved (that and Feudal economic relations).

You can take your edge somewhere else.

Yes, thats the point

Into the trash

post-revolutionary/rebellion country's are never a great place to live OP, there's always an oppressed class in cases of post-civil war.

Your family were probably a bunch of Kulaks from the sound of it.
If they were willing to give up their wealth and land, they probably shouldn't have been dealt with that harshly. I've never cared much more the Soviet experiment.

*much for

lol

Fuck off, your grandfather deserved it

go suck a black cock. or better yet, kill yourself.