How do you feel about both Corbyn and Sanders acknowledging gender wage inequity and making it a point to battle it? Simple populism to sway liberals? Class war betrayal? Corbyn and Sanders being right and Holla Forums just being angry virgins? :^) Simple coincidence?
How do you feel about both Corbyn and Sanders acknowledging gender wage inequity and making it a point to battle it...
Austin Collins
Other urls found in this thread:
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Landon Bell
when those dudes and fucking ivanka trump are all in agreement i think maybe angry reactionary youtube stars should just give up the ghost and let it go
let's be happy some families might be getting a raise
Cooper Sullivan
simple populism to sway simple liberals
Camden Howard
There is wage inequalities between men and women.
Brody Clark
...
Matthew Hill
As socialists, Corbyn, Sanders, and Holla Forums agree on supporting the abolition of gender wage inequity and all other sources of wage inequity
Jayden Ward
pick one and only one.
Brayden Price
What I want to see is proof that it exists.
Landon Hughes
Yes, because they work less and men support them.
John Rogers
Except that Holla Forums, in the face of this (>>1171553) lad for example, vehemently denies the very existence of the tendency for gender wage inequity..?
It's funny how quick is Holla Forums to go from "we stand with women as one against capitalism" to "women are all parasite whores who support capitalism and under Holla Forums approved social state those skanks will be common property". At least try to keep up the facade, why won't you?
Don't go Holla Forums on me, m80.
Hunter James
Women don't even understand feminism anymore. But it's mostly a white person problem. Of both sexes.
You lost the point and your minds somewhere around 2012 and are pissed about shit that doesn't matter.
Zachary Gray
Read through the spoiler tag comr8
Samuel James
That doesn't clarify anything.
You know what my actual problem with Holla Forums is? It's that the vast majority of people here are the same as the vast majority of leftists practically anywhere else: they only care for the left inasmuch as they see the left as beneficial for themselves; the very moment they start thinking that they would do better if they stopped supporting the left, they will do so without hesitation, singing praise to capitalism and bashing them pinko commies for not working harder or whatnot — basically, Holla Forums is filled with the very people of whom it is said that they are red as youth and blue as adults. Locals' opposition to feminism is simply a byproduct of that — Holla Forums denizens are against feminism for the same reason they are against capitalism: it doesn't directly benefit them. (And it's not just about feminism, either — ethnically European Holla Forumstards are generally sceptical or even outright hostile towards black liberation movements, too, for example.)
Ultimately, Holla Forums is as self-serving as Holla Forums is, except that Holla Forumstards at least don't deny their ultimate motivations. Some of the time, at least. Partially. Eh, whatever, waste of time trying to find an excuse for them. Regardless, you got the point.
Aaron Morris
Not everybody here supports what the people in this thread support.
I for one am against the wage gap inequalities. I stand for equality of all people. Fuck laisse faire, fuck the illusion that capitalism creates equal opportunity for all. So I think its just that those that are not feminists are also some of the more vocal people on this board.
Nicholas Rogers
Thanks for recognizing that I represent Holla Forums. In my position as representative I'd like to clarify that we the people of Holla Forums stand with women against capitalism, and will stand no division, even those caused by women themselves, who claim that the problem is men, and not capitalism. No one is claiming that they're whores, though we have nothing against whores (Do you? Why is that a negative for you?).
Adrian Cooper
Feminism by itself does not really benefit anyone. It was not an ideology that lifted women out of reactionary or decrepit conditions. It was their own self-determination, their assembling for a righteous purpose.
Xavier Robinson
do y'all think the nuclear family is just a spook?
Juan Bennett
I meant balance-wise, like how getting rid of a debt and going to zero makes a person richer even though they still don't have cash on their hands, you know.
That's idealistic, comr8.
Except that which you enforce yourselves, yeah, cheers for pointing out that one.
That's a straw(wo)man right here.
Andrew Jenkins
Aggravating. Uncritical, unscientific thinking is a cancer that spreads to the acceptance of other ideas unquestioningly. We have to fight it so it doesn't lead to other shit like antivax or unconditional anti-GMO attitudes.
Cameron Green
It is immensely frustrating to hear people in my area bitching about this while our minimum wage is $5.15/hr. It's just another distracting identity politics used to diffuse political action for more important things.
Lucas Powell
So how are you going to fight all feminism on a righteous crusade of scientific truth, which is totally a unique position nobody else here or on image boards is doing.
Xavier White
It's just pandering to upper class white females. The wage gap is non-existent in the worker classes.
Gabriel Gonzalez
As the representative of Holla Forums I have to question your commitment to team commie. We at Holla Forums will throw all enemies of the people into the gulags.
Strawpeople are useful tools, but we admit that point. It's just as likely they believe in a fictional enemy which they've created to serve as a false and distracting antagonist.
Gabriel Lee
...
Nicholas Nguyen
You don't get out much do you?
Jordan Foster
It's political tiger repellent.
If people are really up in arms about an epidemic of tigers going around mauling people, you can probably sell them on some solution to get rid of the tigers. It's great because you don't actually have to DO anything because there ARE no tigers and no maulings so you can effectively build free political capital.
The wage gap is the same. It doesn't really exist in most Western countries the way people think it does (less pay for the same work and circumstances) - but some people maintain an almost religious belief in it, you can win votes from parochial female voters and their "male allies" by claiming to fight it.
The risk of course is that you play this game and people notice that nothing is changing and because you've reinforced their belief with your electoral ghost stories, they end up hating you for going back on your promise.
IMO, I think it's a bad idea because talking about the mythical wage gap means the discussion remains fixated on caricatures of greedy sexists deliberately paying women less than men rather than reality that capitalism as a system places less value on the kinds of lives most women apparently want to live and the work they want to do and there is EARNINGS gap for that reason.
Gabriel Murphy
I suppose. I've been turning it over in my head for a while now that most anti-feminists come out to the right of feminists, even with the shittier, liberal, intersectional version of feminism that gets tossed around. For the far-right you have those that aspire to be "patriarchs" and regress to a time before it didn't really matter like today, then you have the "egalitarian" centrists that just don't want to hold too strong a position. Of course, our aims should not be to merely negate the "enemy," so-called masculinity, but to negate in ourselves what extends the disparity, to abolish "femininity" as a sort of class.
Aaron Adams
Because to be a feminist means to be against $15/hour minimum wage.
Yes, I know that the idea that one can only care about one issue at a time is so integral to Holla Forums's justification tactics that it's a major faux pas to point it out, but nevertheless, I can't help but say that it's complete bollocks that Holla Forumstards embarrass themselves by using in arguments.
See, another one lining up. You lads are as predictable as trumpeters.
Angel Ortiz
Sexism and hatred of women will be a lot easier to overcome after capitalism is gone.
Colton Brown
Wyatt Turner
This is the first time someone sent this to me. Thanks for just noticing I exist. You're not new here or anything.
Levi Taylor
Is there a set of histograms or curves demonstrating relative incomes of different proportions of the population separated by sex?
Cooper Collins
At what point in time did anti-feminists stand to the left of feminists? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious as to whether that was a thing.
You're just repeating yourself, except this one is even weaker: you don't say (imply, if you're anal about semantics) that it's impossible to battle sexism before the collapse of capitalism like you normally do, you merely point out the obvious and then still treat it like the ultimate argument in favour of the one-issue-at-a-time strategy that curiously only ever applies to issues you don't like.
John Hall
...
Cameron Richardson
I don't know what you object to babe, but there really actually are no statistics to support a wage gap in the sense of women being paid less than men with all other factors being equal. Or rather, the unexplained gap that remains tends to be within the margin of error for the applicable studies.
If you want to keep harping on about an issue that doesn't exist rather than what may be a real issue of capitalism tending to force the monetary compensation for "womens work" down because it often produces less direct profit for capitalists and more benefit for society broadly, you go ahead. But it doesn't make you a good feminist or morally superior to people who disagree with you.
Ryan Rogers
The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
Elijah Martin
Yep it has.
Easton Johnson
thanks
Nathan Collins
I understand that there are some things you just can't say in mainstream politics like "wage labor is slavery; we must abolish the wage system" so I'm not too bothered by someone fighting to increase the pay of anybody in the working class. Increasing women's pay is the kind of thing that might get passed (even if it's for the wrong reasons), while lobbying to increase men's pay or even workers' pay in general is highly unlikely in the current environment.
Unless there's some larger system here I'm not seeing where women earning more is going to fuck up the economy I'm not really eager to oppose this shit on some kind of principle about discrimination.
Parker Nelson
You misunderstand. What I really mean is that I did not care about feminism until I saw the way it was used and abused on Holla Forums.
Ayden Howard
I want to be proved wrong.
Luke Turner
Why can't more guys be like this? Seriously who is hurt by eliminating what remains of the wage gap?
Easton Lee
Don't mistake me, this is a retarded issue and it's depressing that raising wages has to be done under the auspices of "save the women". It's just not one that I care to fight.
Xavier Roberts
The problem is this sort of legislation has been passed and rehashed some three or four times in the last 50 years and it hasn't done shit.
Jace Peterson
youtube.com
Next thread?
Nicholas Jones
Oh believe me I'm aware that there are laws on the books for this. Again, it's not something that seems to be worth fighting. At most I see the issue as an opportunity to tie inequalities, material or not, back to class.
Nolan Torres
Also, I think Holla Forums is one of those generally "anti-feminist" places, or at least offers some of the better critiques of feminism, and still comes out as left as ever.
Nathan Perry
Actually it has. The pay gay does not exist for low paying jobs. That was not the case 30 years ago.
Alexander White
you can't eliminate something that doesn't exist
Carter Rogers
The one thing I would add to this video is that part of the gap that exists is due to maternity leave. It's riskier to hire women of a certain age because they are far more likely to take time off work to handle the kids than men are. The way that you address this is to have men and women take leave to raise kids at equal rates. Good luck getting any traction on that matter.
Tyler Ross
Now better maternity and paternity leave is a real issue to get behind.
Lincoln Cook
So, we already have redundant laws to provide for equal pay for equal work, when you compare equal work women earn around 93% the income of men and that 7% could be attributed to their higher job satisfaction/less likely to negotiate for a raise and possibly lack of maternity leave.
So we should instead.
Zachary Bennett
I like that "it's all women's personal choices" meme. When John the Plumber makes suboptimal decisions regarding his finances, it's because he was conditioned to be economically illiterate by the ruling class. When Jane the Nurse makes similar suboptimal decisions, however, it's because it's her personal choice that's completely uninfluenced by any single thing in objective existence and it should not count as a point for feminism. Makes perfect sense to me.
You do understand that when literally thousands of different studies stumble upon the same result, margin of error goes of the window along with everyone mentioning it? Go study statistics or something.
See, the one-issue-at-a-time meme is so strong with you, you cannot abandon it even when it's been directly pointed out. Really, it's like I'm talking with a trumpeter.
I'd argue that while Marx was a visionary, he was far from the leftest even in his time, and a fair number of the man's (proto-)feminist contemporaries were to the left of him. Still, point taken.
Ah, all right, then, I see where you're coming from,.
See, the fact that it's painfully obvious that Holla Forums has no bloody idea what it's talking about when it comes to such issues is what makes it really frustrating. Lads like this one aren't interested in having a meaningful discussion, they only look for the quickest way to shut this conversation down.
Matthew Sanchez
The ruling class is fucking over women too. Guess who doesn't want to get rid of the ruling class? Feminists.
Christopher Ward
look at all the ad-hominem
that's how you can tell a feminist
Julian Richardson
How about you practice what you preach? I have a bachelor's in mathematics with three or four statistics classes behind it. I'm studied enough.
Here are some words you need to get yourself more familiar with: mode, range, outlier, and skew. There is much more going on and to say that women generally make less than men generally is a very misleading extrapolation.
Landon Russell
there are inequities in wages between men and women
a significant portion is due to women picking lower-paid careers and partially due to taking maternity leave
a small, but significant enough to not be ignorable, portion of the inequity is only explainable as discrimination
some will go on about how stupid and useless women are to prove me wrong, and then claim there is no discrimination against them, ironically
Parker Howard
This is impressive work, user.
Caleb Walker
Like what? The only valid example I can think of is that CEO meme, and it only holds for liberal feminism. Everything else is just weak, like the already mentioned one-issue-at-a-time strategy and "wage gap doesn't exist because women are stupid" meme. Again, I'm genuinely interested in hearing your answer.
You know, what gets me is not that Holla Forums is simply wrong on such issues, it's that Holla Forums is dishonest. It would have been fine if Holla Forumstards genuinely believed in what they were saying, but it's like climate change denial, where the denialists don't even pretend to hide their motivations, but still keep up with the charade.
Am I actually on Holla Forums? Did I mistake the two boards by mistake?
It's notable that "consistency" isn't one of them. Nice job completely ignoring my point.
Oh, so now it's not even a matter of personal choice, it's just an illusion and doesn't exist at all. You're going to beat Holla Forums at the goalpost moving competition if you keep going like that.
My entire argument nicely summed up. Cheers.
Tyler Bell
I really dislike this video. It's just as misleading as the women's groups he is describing. For example, he gets his information about the "77%" statistic from an article on the Washington post rather than looking at the data himself. He then goes on to cite that the data is just "raw wages" which is an outright falsification of the census that came from the little U.S. bureau, especially since it controls for education, generational status, occupation choices, parenthood, hours worked, and so on. When he finally does bring up a study he likes which controls for occupation choices and comes up with the number 5-7% his conclusion is that this number can be accounted for with occupational choices, almost like he was ignoring what he originally set out to do. It seems more like, even since the beginning when he said of women teachers and men petrol farmers, that he was trying to frame the narrative as it was only women's choice which accounts for this difference, which may be true, but not in the case of the data given.
Anthony Richardson
Retarded populism.
Don't forget they they both engage deeply in idpol as it is so this is to be expected.
As for gender wage inequality, here's something
Millennial women make more money than millennial men do
theguardian.com
Jason King
Dylan Martinez
Fucking how?
Matthew Hughes
After controls?
Kill yourself.
Christopher Carter
So, discrimination in the work place is occurring. Basically.
Christian Hill
When people spend inordinate amounts of time whining about the gender wage gap without offering any real solutions on what should be done about it, I get very suspicious.
Cameron Wood
independent.co.uk
content.time.com
money.cnn.com
mic.com
wsj.com
npr.org
nydailynews.com
Connor Lewis
Thought you didn't care about the wage gap? ;v)
Luis Hughes
Whatever me and my sister need to make more money.
Also, I need to radicalize her. Right now she's a socdem/neo-lib/semi-feminist.
Thomas Lee
I like how every anti-feminist pretends to be a statistician when it comes to the gender wage gap issue. Just refer to .
If you posted a photo of yourself sucking your own dick, you still would have come off as less self-pleasing as you did in your post.
Luke Smith
When Holla Forums says that there are women who just want to use feminism to beat men into submission, to also control female sexuality, to argue that they're being discriminated against on the basis of abstractions at the expense of looking at real material and social relations, Holla Forums is right. There are some really shitty people that pay lipservice to feminism (HRC for example).
Cameron Morales
Randomly clicked on WSJ link.
Then on Mic link.
I like it when people don't even read the articles they link to.
Landon Rogers
Obviously. The thing is, for Holla Forums, that's not a reason to be against feminism, only an excuse. I won't talk about how Holla Forums is only right regarding certain particulars, the problem is that Holla Forums doesn't care about being right in the first place.
William Peterson
You're being pretty mean, sempai…
Luke Carter
OK here's another one since you are apparently to assmad to contain this argument to this thread
The notion that the nuclear family is modeled after feudalism with the father/husband as the monarch and everyone else as serfs is just bananas. Of the man, woman, and 2.5 kids, the man in a Leave it to Beaver nuclear family by far does the most work in order to pay for the 2 bedroom house with a garage. It's primarily the man's labor (though the poorer a family gets the more the other members chip in) that allows the family to live in a house and eat well-balanced meals every day. The idea of a man being the ruler of the house is just the ideology the model uses.
While the woman (mother/wife) and children often do work in the form of household chores, these are of comparatively less use-value and labor-value than the work the man does. I've read left feminist writings on the subject that rest on the notion that the woman (totally ignoring the children, lel) is exploited because her labor isn't paid for. In reality, her labor directly benefits her because she lives in the house. On top of this, she (unlike the man) gets to see the direct benefit her labor has for the other family members. She does not suffer alienation to the same degree as the man in his industrialized work even if her (and the whole family's) alienation from wider society prevents her from socializing her labor with nearby families to benefit the community at large. Women did and do still have a culture of community work, however, with bake sales, potlucks, and so on. Men have their equivalents but given they spend more time working, they don't have the freedom to indulge in these activities to the same degree. Compared to a man working for a wage, it's easy to see how the process of labor is less inherently exploitative for women and less alienating.
Now let's look at the interaction between a man and woman's work life under this system. The man is the standard model of laborer, who works 40 hours a week to make loads of money for porky. The amount of surplus value stolen from him varies but generally he takes home a fraction of the value he creates. This value goes primarily to the following: a house for him (and his family) to live in, a car (so he can drive between work and home), food (to feed himself and his family), and other amenities like appliances that improve quality of life for the whole family. The rest is discretionary spending money, which is again split between the man and his family. Indeed, it was common for women to handle shopping because they had more time to do so. On the other hand, women's labor is not abstracted into cash the way a man's is. Her labor's value is realized directly most of the time, and in forms that benefit her directly. Housework improves the quality of living for everyone in the house, but since the woman spends more time at home than other members of the family (the man works, the kids go to school or play outside), she benefits the most from this labor. Other labor, like cooking, is often split amongst the family, but the split is usually equitable. In what area is a woman's labor expropriated such that she benefits from it less than other members of the household? In terms of use-value, the man and woman (and children) each do work that benefits each other, although in terms of exchange value (money), the man contributes more than the rest of the household combined, and spends the least time in the household that gains the benefit. On the other hand the woman contributes less in terms of exchange value, though her labor is much more directly useful, and she benefits from common value added to the household the most since she spends the most time in it.
Lastly, the ideology behind women joining the workforce was based on the notion that doing household labor that involves less exploitation and alienation was somehow baser than the work of a man working for a wage. This work was portrayed as the path to freedom, success, power, etc. The notion that wage slavery is preferable to housekeeping is also based on the notion that monetary compensation for work adds inherent value to the work, rather than devaluing it. When someone works directly for the results of their work (use-value), they are far less alienated than if they work for money, never seeing the final result of their work. The reverse of this observation, upon which some feminist theory is based, both is wrong on its face and contradicts some of Marx's most basic ideas. It's simply bourgeois ideology (specifically it's fetishizing the commodification of work) masquerading as leftism in order to court a certain demographic to its cause.
TL;DR even "left" feminism is often just liberal idpol feminism with a pretense
Matthew Campbell
"when they're older" or "older women"
there's a difference.
The point is that it IS NOT an issue. it's a distraction. This whole fucking thread is a distraction from actual issues.
eh I'm tired of arguing with this feminist troll. can't wait to hear how this just proves her stupid point more.
Christian White
No, really. Holla Forums understands that mentioning Gulags to discredit socialism is a dishonest tactic, but mentioning Clinton to discredit feminism makes perfect sense, and when this obvious inconsistency is pointed out, nothing follows but insults. That's just atrocious.
You know what's a good way to tell a rightist from a leftist? Leftists either don't give a fuck about semantics at all or don't consider them relevant to the argument.
And your post makes no arguments, only statements.
Are you done playing a idiot? Because I'm done humouring you.
Benjamin Martin
Argumentum ad persistence doesn't actually change minds you know. Present something new, perhaps?
Kevin Harris
I don't know. The whole feminism thing seems to depend on this idea of women being oppressed by the patriarchy. But given that women are more interested in successful, valuable males, doesn't it stand to reason that the patriarchy would be something women at least contributed to, if not outright created? Lesbians not really understand this, so they get confused when they see this disparity. It would benefit hypergamous women, or most heterosexual women, for there to be a system where most men were at least perceived to be more socially advantaged, whether or not this was actually the case.
Joshua Murphy
ugh, do you not get the difference? if they're older women, they're from another generation. you really love to attack the poster. all your type can do is attack people personally. i think ur entire movement is a big ad hominem attack on masculinity.
Landon Brown
HAHAHA what? Leftism is full of sectarian arguments over semantic bullshit what fucking planet do you live on?
Juan Taylor
In reality, the worker is not exploited because he is employed by the company. If the company does well, so does its employees!
Yes, dividing yourself between a husband and children, to feed them, to clean their messes, and so on, is definitely not extracting of surplus value, because it is equitable with all the compensation she gets back in the form of "little helpers," who really need more help themselves, and a few dollars allowance to go spend every week.
It's funny that you will call feminism idpol when the phrase identity politics was essentially coined by feminists, and at the same time you trade "female" idpol for "male" idpol and make this out to be a game of oppression olympics "No it is really *I* the man who is most oppressed."
Colton Hill
I have extremely mixed feelings about her and her ideas, but she's rightist to the point that she charges her children rent so take anything she has to say with a heaping pile of salt.
Jace Martin
The thing that is both funny and sad is that many people here would actually agree with this post.
That's like saying that having drinking facets for coloured people is okay if those facets are from before they were banned. I can't tell if you're grasping at straws or are genuinely this stupid.
Cooper Richardson
...
Adam Lopez
Good
Liam Evans
kek
okay, I admit, it was phrased a little weird
but breastfeeding is not surplus value per se, but socially necessary labour time
Ryder Smith
the "surplus value" would be something like an Oedipal complex
Ian Gutierrez
See, your argument fucking starts with attributing to me ideas I've never even heard of. When my entire point against your position is based on my disgust with your dishonesty, how the fuck did you come to the conclusion that upping the dishonesty all the way to the fucking eleven was a good idea? Doubling down on playing dumb after being accused of playing dumb is a better indication of a Holla Forumstard than the words "I am a Holla Forumstard". Seriously, the attitude that you can deceive absolutely anyone is just fucking insulting.
Christopher Gutierrez
The worker produces commodities that he never sees. The woman produces a higher standard of living in the house she lives in. Your argument rests on false equivalence.
It's more than equitable in the case of a husband because his labor outside the house (which is conveniently ignored for some reason) is what pays for the house and almost everything in it. The work of cleaning up messes and so on is tedious but doesn't compare to the labor value of your typical wage slave. As for kids, they are not responsible for their parents. It's regrettable that their care is shouldered by two people, but I'm not criticizing the nuclear family model here (I do think it's shit); I'm criticizing a bad criticism of it that's used to push suboptimal social models.
The more semantically appropriate word would be "irony".
I have never been the man in this model so I don't know where you get the idea from that I'm complaining about my personal circumstances. If you think the thrust of my argument here is "poor [demographic] we should help them specifically" then you've comically missed the point of my post. I'm not advancing a critique of the nuclear family at all (I could, but that's beside the point); I'm advancing a critique of feminist critique thereof, to restate what I said earlier in case you missed it.
Matthew Taylor
Why do feminists hate family so much?
Jordan Wilson
What are employee discounts?
I didn't bother reading his post after getting halfway through the first sentence, but is he actually arguing for the Kinder, Küche, Kirche way for women on a socialist fucking board? I'm almost impressed with his utter lack of shame.
Jayden Davis
Well they're ideas you're defending if you are defending leftist feminism. They're ideas that have been presented to me under that umbrella and ideas that purport to be of that ilk. So how am I supposed to know which precise strain of left feminism you adhere to? This is another problem with the idea that people should support such a broad label.
What dishonesty? I can't very well respond to your positions if you don't elucidate them. The best I can do is respond to other positions from people waving the same flag (which you asked for by the way).
All other arguments aside, doubling down after playing dumb is by no means exclusive to Holla Forums and if you associate bad faith arguing tactics with such a specific entity you probably should expose yourself to a wider sphere of influence.
Can you point to anywhere that I copped an attitude? Can you specify what deception I'm attempting? Can you explain what insults you specificially? Or are you just going to throw around emotionally charged language without presenting anything resembling a counterpoint?
Blake Thomas
Doesn't everyone want their parent's dead?
Ryan Brooks
there u go calling me names again. all I see is an angry person, probably relaly young, maybe 18, mentally 15 (see I can do it too!). i'm saying people from an older generation behave differeint is all. i don't get it. all I hear is hate hate hate from you. it's like you're proving the right-winging right every time to speak. which is why I wonder if ur a troll or not.
Grayson Edwards
...
Jack Kelly
Is that a joke? My argument is that the use-value of all of a woman's labor in that system is realized before her eyes. Employee discounts do not come close to returning a laborer's surplus value.
No, where did you even get that idea? I'm for communal raising of children.
Based on an assumption that you admit is not based on what I wrote?
Luke Edwards
I hate white people talking about feminism so god damn much
Kayden Butler
On image boards, especially when it comes to politics, it's a certain tell.
Yes, I am. I just don't care for any point you could possibly make. Have a good day.
Jackson Diaz
I love bashing on Marx worship, what can I say.
Easton Baker
Ok then.
Jaxon Johnson
I'll take from another post you made "Your post makes no arguments, only statements."
She's a serious libertarian. I don't agree with her, but I listen to opposing viewpoints, unlike some people in this thread, without posting angry attacks against her. She makes some good points, and some bad ones. I think she has a point about her idea of "Toxic Femininity" and about how it's a social crime to talk about it.
Andrew Foster
Word, sister.
Seriously, white men shouldn't be an authority on even white men, much less anyone else.
Jacob Davis
That you cannot see the equivalence does not make it false. Barring what might annoy you as comparing people to commodities, the woman does not get to see the man she loves and cares for, she must let go of her children, to school, to let them get a career. Of course, if the argument is a false equivalent then it would have already started with your own: if the nuclear family is modelled after feudalism then we cannot use the same metric of commodification to compare exploited labour since the feudal mode of production is not based on the surplus commercialization of crafts in relation to the market, but on fulfilling certain quotas to meet the contracts of the landlord (which means they are quantitatively and qualitatively different).
Hi prickly. Regardless of what you are, the message is the same: a comparison of identities which you are trying to make sound mutually exclusive.
James Roberts
I agree.
I hate white people so much
Mason Perez
Whenever Karen talks about politics or economics it's 12-year-old tier but her grasp of social behavior is strong enough that I suspect she's some kind of psychopath. That and her icy calmness which makes her great when she's up against idiots who argue based on emotions.
Jose Gray
Barring your annoyance when I*
James Robinson
Unironically if the internet hasn't made you hate whites you haven't been on the internet long enough.
Henry Allen
Is English not your native language? Just curious.
Aiden Gonzalez
Pretty much. Dumb economics, good on social issues. She mostly studies social issues. I'd hesitate to call her a psychopath since she seems nice enough, although libertarians all seem to tend towards that psychopath-ish attitude.
Wyatt Evans
The internet has made me hate dogs
Robert Jenkins
See this is why tripfags are fucking annoying.
Jace Ramirez
If I told you it was, please don't think less of me because I am stupid and don't know how to speak correctly…
Kayden Davis
I really didn't say that. I specifically said what I said, and what I said was my gut cringe reaction.
Christian Wright
I like you.
Samuel Sullivan
Why do you deny the ability of people to make you cringe regardless of their skin color?
Evan Gomez
Whites are inherently cringey in their political discourse on the internet. It's just human nature.
Lincoln Taylor
It's simple. Gender is a spook.
Parker Jackson
Bait.mpeg
That you can does not make it true. The burden of proof lies on the one making the positive claim.
Because he's working to pay for the family… she is not alone in unfortunate circumstances here.
Now this is just some neurotic shit right here. Going to school I might let slide if I'm being generous but it's perfectly normal for adult children to go live on their own away from their parents. Even disregarding that, again, the woman is not alone in this being an unfortunate situation. The children have to deal with the separation as well. And since I'm not being generous, the idea that women should have control over their children as opposed to kids spending most of their time interacting with other people is not a healthy model at all. Kids benefit the most from a breadth of experience with other people and a depth of experience with people they can form a bond with. That is not necessarily either of their parents.
Fair enough, that is legitimately a weakness in my admittedly terse criticism. Allow me to address it. Where are the quotas in the nuclear household? Are they explicit or implicit? What are the consequences for fulfilling the quotas or not? How does the expected quota for a housewife compare with that of a serf? I'm no expert in medieval economy, but the members of the nuclear family (including the woman) more or less benefit equally from the woman's labor. Where benefit is unequal, the woman is the greater recipient because she spends more of her time in the house. Contrast with the man, whose work goes to the family's home and its contents and who spends 40 hours a week working to support the home while not able to enjoy its benefits. Put this in context with a monarch or lord, who while having to do some administrative work gets to enjoy the benefits of his land while he does so - and not off the work of his own back in any appreciable proportion compared to the work of the numerous serfs. The comparison is very shallow and requires the reader to ignore important material facts about who does work to whose benefit.
Well how about you attack the merits of my arguments instead of me as a person then?
Gabriel Brown
/thread
Henry Lewis
Wow, you actually are this stupid. I honestly didn't think you were.
Jackson Diaz
Contrary to the stereotype psychopaths can be pretty good people. The murderers are very rare, and as long as they don't end up as executives or whatever they're not that likely to do too much damage. On the other hand, a psychopath who learns maladaptive social behavior can be far far worse than your average person. Most of them are decent, they just act a little off.
I think that's primarily that they see the aloofness of psychopaths as something to aspire to. Having been around narcissists and psychopaths in my time, I can attest that there's a certain instinctive appeal to being unfettered in that way, or following someone who is.
Justin Powell
t.psychopath
Evan King
Huh, maybe it wasn't bait and you're just from reddit or something.
Jayden Perry
...
Luke Reyes
Are you literally autistic or something?
This.
Brandon Kelly
hehehe
I'm actually the complete opposite, I empathize to the point that it's detrimental and I compulsively put other people before myself, which is partly why I stay up late on imageboards to argue against what I see as bad ideas.
Kevin King
[/spoiler]Me too.[/spoiler]
Owen Jackson
That's not what that means.
Autism and psychopathy are very different things. Using either as a pejorative is infantile and marginalizes people.
Kayden Hughes
You can't be real, can you? Have you ever checked with a psychiatrist? I'm sure they can treat your issues.
Christian Turner
wewewew that's some weapons grade fellow kids
Andrew Butler
Yes, welcome to anonymous imageboards. We pride ourselves on being ultracritical, on presenting and critiquing ideas that are forbidden discussion in a room full of normies. Sometimes this is done in a heavy veil of irony, but regardless the method, we take pride in our ability to step outside societal norms to say whatever actually comes to mind.
Now get the fuck out.
Nicholas Smith
*tip*
Grayson Sanchez
...
Juan Collins
I don't think the gender wage gap exists, but if it gets "fixed" and working class women get paid a bit more who loses out except porky?
Hudson Scott
Fuck off. I already said I want communal raising of children. The way that bourgeois identity politics shit on men annoys me but nowhere near as much as the way it completely ignores children.
Jose Sanders
I was critiquing the normie/concern troll's apparent newfaggotry to the way that anonymous discussion works, not your post. "Are you really saying that on this forum" is the exact kind of discussion-stifling bullshit that turns places into echo chambers. Simmer down.
Wyatt Turner
What do you actually mean by this? We could already view raising of children as kinda communal since most of them are not homeschooled. If you mean the concept of a family cloister being abolished then absolutely no one will ever agree to this.
Blake Brooks
You kind of want this to be an echo chamber too in your own way.
Josiah Nguyen
This was never the claim when some feminists insist that domestic work goes uncompensated. That you're having to argue this is precisely why I claimed you were dismissing idpol only to welcome it back in another form.
This is also not my particular argument. I was only showing you that the same could be said of kids if talking about "commodities" since children are literally a product of the labour of women's bodies (yes, the man adds the spermatozoa and whatever, but his figure is not that which usually houses the offspring, nor is it typical that the father is the prime caregiver). But, I do agree with your reply nonetheless, and wouldn't you admit that this only highlights how we should not be using commodities as measuring exploitation in these cases?
I could not tell you exactly, as I don't live in one, but I will give you some conjectures: for sexual life, the woman is usually supposed to comply with the level of horny their husband is, lie prostrate if the husband wants to think about another woman, or recumbent in the missionary pose to receive his seed and grow their babies, seldom achieving orgasm themselves. The women are expected to have a warm meal ready when the man gets back from a hard day's work. Et c. Of consequences, I'm sure one can expect alcoholism and spousal abuse.
I'm not really sure why you keep framing your argument in this way, or why you think the husband is not allowed to enjoy the benefits of his work to the family home when he too lives there (Cf: "her labor directly benefits her because she lives in the house"). Yes, the man is being exploited differently, in the industrial space, his fruits literally being stolen to be made a profit for someone else (but could you not also say this of children, when the school requires their attendance, and gets their budget based off of their scores and attendance? Or even of the husband, who is literally forced into wage-labour away from the loving home?)
Please, forgive me. I did not seriously intend to attack you, dear.
Adrian Hill
Projecting much?
Kayden Peterson
Yeah, I was 50/50 on whether you were being satirical. I'm annoyed that someone's making an effort to concern troll the board. I have a lot of patience but only for certain things.
Current school systems basically amount to indoctrination factories. Talk to any kid about school, even the high achievers, and it won't take long to see how it sucks away any enthusiasm for learning. It ought to be replaced entirely.
Sure they would. It's how human society used to be structured. Talk to anyone who grew up after the boomers and didn't have access to the gibsmedats, and they'll tell you that raising kids is a pain. Living in larger (opitionally, family-based) arrangements takes loads of pressure off the parents. I'm not saying parents wouldn't have access to their kids, just that raising the kids doesn't fall solely on them. Even in a society with free association where kids can go wherever they want, they will still usually associate with their parents. The idea that they wouldn't implies that the bond is socially constructed, which is false.
For fuck's sake at least put in the effort to explain why this is an echo chamber.
Adrian Fisher
A single post does not represent the board.
Asking for proof is not denying.
You are intellectually dishonest and self-evidently not worth discussing with. But you're worth bitching about:
Which is precisely as it should be.
Fuck assholes like you (invariably well-off, spoiled and not particularly willing to give up their own luxuries) claiming solidarity and cooperation should be an ideological choice. You're only making it harder for the real message - that leftist policies benefit (almost) everyone - to pass through. Stop. Just stop.
Ian Bailey
And if that keeps up, you're going to get angry, and I wouldn't want to see you angry.
Lincoln Butler
This. Same for both of them kinda'-sorta'-not objecting to mass economic immigration even though (being burgerstani, I don't know about Corbyn's history on this) Sanders has historically opposed it on the sly. The mask slips, occasionally, though, like with Sanders' disregard for gun control, or Corbyn's for staying in the EU. The fact that Sanders and Corbyn can oppose free trade alongside Trump and the BNP without being screeched at for waycism is a historical quirk of the left's barely-recent opposition to the IMF and World Bank under Bush.
Oh, not just that, not just that it's the opposite for some demographics/occupations of women, but that IT'S ALREADY BEEN ILLEGAL SINCE KENNEDY. This and "1 in 3" clearly illustrate that feminazism only works on those borderline-braindead retarded.
Even worse when you look into the Nordic Gender Paradox:
en.wikipedia.org
This isn't entirely unprecedented, even on the mainstream. Obama's regurgitation of feminazi lies might not have been completely uncritical, but instead a political ploy to force through legislation against wage theft and employer secrecy using feminazis as a smokescreen:
www.wsj.com/articles/obama-plan-would-force-pay-disclosures-by-gender-1454043661
Joseph Nelson
Whites.bmp
Juan Hernandez
There were a dozen posts with the same message made after that one.
Don't play dumb.
I love it when Holla Forumstards accuse others of dishonesty, especially when it happens after they were accused themselves.
See? You don't even attempt to hide your motivations, but still insist that your views have nothing to do with them. That's just frustrating to deal with.
Josiah Torres
forgot my trip. Wouldn't want innocent people seeing racism.
Parker Mitchell
addendum to:
Nevermind, I see where your contrast of the landlord comes from, but I have to disagree.
You do not think the wife is working much to support the home? Do you think the wife is like the landlord who profits off the back of the husband, without even owning the deed to the property?
David Russell
Honest question: are you an incel?
James Diaz
Get out
Ian Phillips
Honest question: Would "privilege+prejudice=discrimination" justify one or both genocides during the Yugoslav Wars?
Xavier Cook
Murder is illegal too. Yet people haven't stopped being murdered.
Daniel Scott
...
Jaxson Diaz
I guess that means we should pass more laws to ban things that are already banned, to fix problems that have statistically been proven not to be problems anymore.
What gets me, like a lot of feminazism, is that by focusing on a hysterical fantasy ("equal pay for equal work") they ignore, distract from, and ultimately worsen actual problems like occupational stereotyping, maternity, family/work balance, and general the precarity of today's working class.
Serbs and Croats both committed genocide against each other, only one was in a position of dominance. By feminazi logic, one was genocide while the other wasn't.
Zachary Gomez
I would just like to add that I think that very few prole families are what one would consider nuclear today, not only because so many woman are working alongside their male counterparts now, but also because men are getting married less and less, scared of divorce rates, working longer hours than before.
Really, it seems only the bourgeoisie can replicate the nuclear family 1:1, because both the mother and the father aren't really working (example: Trump).
Aiden Ramirez
Again. Get out.
Kevin Ortiz
This is said by a lad who uses the word "feminazi" unironically. And they call me a concern troll.
William King
We both know you're a young, healthy whitey living off your parents. You can stop masking your classism as racism now.
Let me spell that out for you: "unselfishness" is a muh privilege of people who don't spend most of their existence worrying what they and their family will eat or where they'll live next month. Most of us can't afford not to be selfish. If leftist ideas are ever to be implemented, it'll be because people collectively agree they benefit them all, not because some asshole decides that people should now be nice to each other without bothering to solve any actual problems.
And let me point out that you are obviously not from this board, lacking even the basic familiarity with Stirner's ideas that are omnipresent here.
Blake Howard
How do you get that from a post saying that laws are ultimately futile, cultural artifacts?
Unfortunately, I have to agree, but this also makes Leninists culpable.
Levi Brooks
I am. My name is Josh Williams. I live in Florida. Um, the way you talk about white women, I just don't like it at all and if you would please stop it would make me a very very happy boy.
Nathaniel Garcia
In spite of what paranoid MGTOW might say, I honestly doubt that's a significant factor. Most studies point to recent generations just being too fucking poor to start families.
Look in the search results for that story, who was I supposed to link, NPR?
Nathaniel Martin
...
Xavier Kelly
That's partly what I meant by working longer hours than before. Wages are stagnating big time.
Dylan Gray
Get out lol
Robert Garcia
I find the contrast between local Marx worship and Stirner adoration comical. How the fuck does Holla Forums reconcile the two? I've heard people drone on about the issue, but never managed to receive a coherent answer.
Hudson Lopez
memes
Evan Lopez
How does Holla Forums reconcile the tankies with the anarkiddies? The world may never know.
Jaxon Brooks
Working longer hours wasn't enough to stall demographics before, since the husband could slave away never seeing his family, while the wife stayed at home and raised their children as she and the kids also did piecework for porky.
Now things have gotten so bad that two full-time paychecks still aren't enough to keep children afloat especially with those nasty child labor laws!.
Jace Lewis
I suppose it started as one, but by this point there are far too many people taking the lad seriously.
But many here do somehow combine it.
Nolan Ramirez
Part 1/2
She's not uncompensated though. The idea that she is rests on the premise that wages are the only form of compensation. As I already explained she reaps direct personal benefits from her labor, and has the added bonus of seeing her loved ones reap the benefits too.
That's kind of my point though, that the nuclear-family-as-feudalism critique only sees the economic activity in the form of commodity. It posits that the woman's labor not being commodified is a form of exploitation. As for the part about women suffering from their children leaving, I was just pointing out that even in totally different systems this is a feature and so Not An Argument™.
Well then fair warning: I will treat them as such.
Much like the idea that "a man's home is his castle," is the ideology layers atop the system, so is this idea. To wit, my grandparents ("greatest generation") have a placard in their house that says "A man's home is his castle… until the Queen arrives." Any account of history is going to be filtered through an ideological lens, so it's important to look for context and nuance regardless of source. Above all, it's important to understand that we're talking about people who are fundamentally not much different than ourselves. I don't dispute that there were millions of women who suffered under exactly the conditions you describe; I think recognizing their plight is important. I don't think it's reasonable, however, to take edge cases like that and project their character onto the system as a whole. Especially in the past, chivalry was considered extremely important. Men who mistreated women have been considered brutes by society at large for much of history. While the bedroom was separated from that social sphere, there has always been a current of community policing of men mistreating their wives, such is the importance placed on women's well-being. This is not the same thing as sexual misconduct, but to illustrate the mentality in play here, men used to get flogged for beating their wives. To tie back to the larger point, this is the kind of thing that on a certain level is considered to be the norm, but in reality deviates frequently because it is an informal social practice subject to the personalities of the people involved. Contrast that with the formally regulated structure of work.
After "a hard day's work" would it then be fair to expect the man to cook a meal? Given that meals take time to cook, how logistically feasible is this? This could be considered a quota or expectation, but that seems like a relatively minor one, since it's not much more difficult to cook a large meal all at once than a small one, and the woman eats as well. Feudal monarchs and lords, by the way, had expectations placed upon them too, including storing food and distributing it to their subjects.
Not gonna sugar coat this at all: the assumption that men in general are capable of that is sexist and counterfactual. Spousal abuse is not the norm unless you use very broad definitions, and men in particular have social and instinctive blocks that prevent them from doing it. That's not to say that it works all the time, but this is another case of taking edge cases to be the standard.
Matthew Reed
Part 2/2
Because the relationship of the nuclear family is fundamentally transactional and the thesis I'm disputing is that women get the short end of the stick. The man and woman bring certain things to the relationship that the other benefits from. The trade is constructed so as to at least seem equitable to these working class people so they will be content with the situation.
He does benefit, just not to the same extent. A housewife spends much more time at home than a working husband. When she works to support the house, she does so in the house and can therefore benefit from the standard of living o the household. When the husband works, he is away from the house and subject to the conditions of a workplace shaped by the interests of capital, and he must work there for tens of hours a week. Right there is a huge disparity.
I did say this about the husband in our back and forth, and I implied it about the children elsewhere ITT.
Heheheh. I'll give you this one since the other shit I've been putting up with ITT blinded be to what is clearly just bantz.
By the way, thanks for actually engaging in a discussion. I hope some of the people who are wholly dismissive of feminists/anfems see this conversation. I may disagree on things but I immensely respect your ability to talk things out. I would happily buy you a beer or equivalent gesture of camaraderie IRL.
Kevin Baker
;_;
Eli Roberts
Speak for yourself incel
Isaac Flores
Being of an intellectual bent, we read widely, not just from those whose ideologies we already agree with.
Ryan Lewis
"Smarter than thou", actually. You don't need to be proletarian to figure it out, you just need basic empathy and intelligence.
And whom are you even quoting?
Ayden Turner
Agreeing with everything you have read in a book regardless of how well the positions you read about mesh is pretty much the exact opposite of the type of a bookish intellectual you're trying to pretend to be.
Adrian Jackson
Thank you for the replies.
Anyway, I have to go to bed, and will only add that I did not intend to construe the "consequences" with sex. Women are just as capable as anyone to cause hurt. They could poison their husbands food or whatever.
Please no bully, miss…so so mean…
Ian James
Part 3/2
I have great respect for housework, but it's a very different beast to wage slavery both in the general character of the labor and in the relations of production.
I don't think the situation is similar enough to use that metaphor, no. A landlord contributes pretty much nothing to the landlord/tenant relationship. As stated above, I see a lot of value in housework, having benefited from and done my share of it. My argument is that the relations of production in a household are very different from those in a feudal society. I would go so far as to say that one has to buy into feudal ideology to a certain extent to agree with this model. Here's why: the income from the man's wages is seen as a given, as an external force acting on the closed system of the household. It's taken for granted as the source of the man's power. This view (in my opinion) builds on the belief that kings have a divine right to rule, that powers external to the kingdom (god) are what grant the man his power. This is clearly not a materialist view of feudalism.
Henry Miller
Now you can't even decide what kind of obnoxious cunt you want to be. Just fuck off.
Engels was a bourgeois cunt whose class roots protruded out of his every statement so prominently that he had trouble speaking without stumbling over his own words. It's very telling that you're suggesting that the working class will only be exalted once workers start behaving like their exploiters.
Nathaniel Baker
Yeah, good night.
It's all good. Humans are not suited to communicating solely through text. Most nuance is conveyed nonverbally so it's bound to happen.
Xavier Ortiz
Uh, OK. The worst I could possibly do is a verbal takedown. I'm fully aware of that. It's not very hard when people are basically just shitposting.
come on son
Shitting on white people isn't edgy in case you thought it was.
>I would just like to add that I think that very few prole families are what one would consider nuclear today ever
FTFY. I was addressing the critique of the model, not the reality, but yes that adds an important layer. I didn't want to be up all night.
Which is why I decry the critique as bourgeois.
By not being one person. Is this your first day off reddit?
Hudson Jones
I want to be the kind of obnoxious cunt who makes fakers quit pretending to be leftists.
So was Marx, but we've already established it doesn't matter, didn't we?
Wyatt Perez
As I said, it's telling that your image of communism is just workers acting like the bourgeoisie.
It most certainly does after you played the class card.
Cameron Bailey
You memed so hard, you did a one eighty on your own argument before even finishing the conversation.
Josiah Foster
It's bourgeois in that it is only concerned with problems of the bourgeoisie. Does that make my position clear enough? A proper leftist critique would address problems faced by proles.
Camden Perez
Thanks for the discussion, anons. Sometimes I get turned off when Holla Forums virtue signals about shit like this while well-thought out posts are ignored entirely, so it's really refreshing to see a well-thought out, organized discussion between people of different perspectives and views.
Luis White
1. You listed exactly one example. Saying "only" after providing a sample size of one is pretty ballsy.
2. In your example, nuclear family was decried as reinforcing an unequal power structure — remind you of anything? And you rejected that critique precisely because of that, mind you. Are you sure you aren't simply schizophrenic and don't understand your own position?
William Lee
You mean acting according to their material interests? Yes, of fucking course.
No, mate, the fact that I can infer that you're a bourg from the fact that you're a certain kind of asshole does not imply that all bourgs are necessarily assholes like you. That's a basic logical fallacy you're committing down there.
Carter Jenkins
I try. If I get the time and energy I will try to do this on youtube. A lot is lost in just text.
Samuel Parker
I can see where you're coming from with this kind of but I'm talking about that argument being bourgeois, not all feminism being bourgeois.
"Unequal" has more than one meaning, but the critique I was dissecting is more specific than that. It claims that women's role is that of serfs to men's lords. I would not call the arrangement equal, but it's also a very shallow parallel to feudalism, which I get to the heart of here
No I reject the critique on the basis of the parallel being shitty. My disdain for the nuclear family is due in part to its inequality. Again, as for children I think they should be raised communally. It follows from that that the nuclear family structure wouldn't work but to be absolutely clear, I think that interpersonal relationships need to be rethought from the ground up, especially sexual and romantic ones. I am unequivocally not defending the nuclear family. What I am doing is critiquing certain feminist ideology as an accurate alternative view.
Cute.
Brandon Perez
See, this perception of the bourgeoisie as being spiritually superior is endemic to anti-communist ideologies that nevertheless pretend to be benefactorial for the the working class. Were you at some point a convicted socdem or a fascist? (Notice how I'm doing an admirable job at not implying that you're a bourg yourself, which is a rather conclusion.)
Growing up, I genuinely thought that hot dogs were gourmet food, and I never even tried a hamburger until I was in my teens. Now, I'm not going to play the class card right back at you, but you're laughably wrong.
Saying "only" about one argument? Are you sure you're not schizophrenic after all?
Not interested in arguing about semantics or humouring your attempts at playing dumb, sorry.
It is. You overblow it to the point where your argument is simply incomprehensible.
So making shitty parallels shows one for being bourgeois? That's a line of thought I never thought I'd have to trace.
Christian Robinson
Here's the full sentence from here "It's bourgeois in that it is only concerned with problems of the bourgeoisie."
There's nothing nonsensical about applying that statement to one argument.
The definitions of words is the foundation of they're use. If disputing that your opinions about my mind is "playing dumb" then you are the one arguing in favor of a hierarchical world, where your opinions are at the top.
The other poster didn't seem to have a problem comprehending it. If you think anything I wrote is overblown and incomprehensible, then Marx is way out of your depth.
No, only being concerned with bourgeois problems is bourgeois, as I said at the top of this post.
Liam Davis
Like… wat.
I'm pretty sure you're discussing with voices in your head right now.
Nah, anarchist since I remember. I do admit to thoroughly updating and refining my earlier naive beliefs after leaving home and institutionalized education and having to survive on my own.
An experience shared by most of the world's population by virtue of not being Amerifats.
Chase Russell
It's called "cherry picking". You can easily portray Marx as being "only concerned with problems of the bourgeoisie" that way. I repeat, making sweeping statements about a huge (and, it should be noted, disjointed) social movement after atrociously misrepresenting one admittedly shitty argument is ridiculous.
Now you're arguing semantics of arguing semantics. Are you all right?
I'm quite sure I can provide a dozen quotes by Marx, Lenin, Kropotkin, Bakunin, and some other socialist philosopher of your choice each about all ideas not being equally worthy. That, or I can start memeing about heliocentrism and geocentrism as being equally valid ideas. I think I'll go with the latter.
She did. Now you're suffering short term memory loss. You're falling apart as we speak. Should I call the ambulance?
All right, this made me giggle out loud. Did you actually think that I couldn't comprehend your argument because of its complexity, or are you just fucking with me?
Returning us to fact that you got lost between a tree and a bush.
I can infer that you actually believe that from the fact that you're a certain kind of self-obsessed cunt.
That does explain a lot.
Sebastian Sullivan
Barney "White people can't be poor" Sanders
"Bring my Muslim Masters Faster" Corbyn
Yes, why would a pair of idpolers say idpol things?
Jeremiah Hill
Ah, I see, you're trying to take refuge in absurdity, claiming that me deducing something about you from your beliefs is equivalent to making any other random unfounded assumption without explanation.
Cute.
Jackson Baker
...
Carson Bell
Where'd I do that? This poster asked for a new argument against feminism so I gave an argument against some feminist ideology I've heard.
Uh, yeah. Because apparently you disagree that we need to share the same basic assumptions before we can have a productive conversation.
The point is your metric for evaluating worth is "Do I agree with it?"
Care to point out where?
You're the one who called it overblown and incomprehensible. Marx's ideas are incidentally difficult in part because they're not rigorously defined and subject to interpretation. I on the other hand have gone out of my way to try to make may ideas as well defined as possible, taking note of places where someone has questions.
Finding fault with ideology for ignoring the vast majority of the population is hardly failing to see the forest for the trees. The plight of the lower class is rather the point of leftism is it not?
Lincoln Bell
The tripfags, namefags, and ecelebs of the left have convinced me now that niggers and gooks deserve the gulag. Everyone else is fine however.
Christopher Nelson
When you're right, you're right, idpoler.
Isaac Watson
You can't get your racial slurs right guano
William Ortiz
No, it's actually pretty much a straight line between supporting egoistic communism and believing that the bourgeoisie are objectively better people.
You nitpicked a shitty argument. That you seem to genuinely think that you did something greater than that is filling me with unease.
The funny thing is that people who pretend to fairly consider all sides couldn't possibly give a fuck about opinions they don't like and are compensating. I've never met an actual smart person who didn't freely admit that they don't care for some (many) opinions before even considering them.
No.
Marx's ideas are easy to understand because they make sense. Yours are hard to understand because they don't. Get it?
You seem to have misunderstood me. I did not say that your ideology is wrong. I don't even know what your ideology is. I said that you are stupid. The reason that I do not know what your ideology is is because you're too stupid to have one. Since the start of this conversation, I did not make a single point regarding politics or philosophy. All I did was point out your stupidity to you.
And then they say that I'm like Holla Forumstards who call people who disagree with them kikes.
Oliver Clark
Pointing out a fundamental flaw is hardly nitpicking and I've seen that argument advanced repeatedly as Marxist feminism.
That's definitely totally not you projecting or anything.
"Smart" is a fucking spook.
I thought not.
Marx's ideas are not fully developed and at times incoherent. He has some brilliant insights and a lot of vaguely defined notions that lend themselves to interpretation.
Heh. What I'm saying here is that I found fault with the ideology. You're misunderstanding the basic concept I'm conveying, I'm guessing because you paid no attention to context.
*unzips katana*
Kevin Thompson
Considering that I explicitly stated that not all opinions are equal, it really isn't? I'm not sure you understand what psychological projection is.
t. dummy
You are right, I couldn't give any fewer fucks.
Kevin Cook
And yet you keep replying.
Kayden Butler
No, but there is a strong (though apparently not straightforward enough) connection between preaching altruism and believing that the bourgeoisie are objectively better people, seeing that the safer your existence is, the more wealth you possess, the more altruism you can afford.
Landon Bell
That's precisely the kind of reactionary thinking that neolibs like Clinton preach. It's older than fucking feudalism, even.
Julian Roberts
which there is not
if it were true
and women were equally as capable in those fields
then companies that hire more women or entirely women would outcompete all other companies
women are as capable as men
so it isnt true, because these wage gaps for the same work and the same experience do not exist
if they did a new business would crop up and outcompete others
are you blind?
Ian Morales
...
Easton Harris
You sure showed that straw pupped who's boss.
You're right, but they're not actually arguing about wages, but earnings. For which there is a disparity (due to males working longer and more flexible hours, due to females tending to dedicate more of their time to kids).
Like 90% of quarrels about this topic could be avoided if one side was more intellectually honest and the other more receptive.
Colton Gomez
I like how Holla Forums goes from quoting Sankara on women to saying that the gender wage gap doesn't really exist because women are stupid and selfish the very moment it's prodded on the issue.
Again, repeating from >>1171849:
Notice how there are four replies to that post and not one addresses the issue.
Wyatt Thomas
So when are people going to tackle the income inequality between part-time workers and full-time workers? It's not right that I should earn less just because I only work 2 days a week.
Luis Fisher
In the entire thread the feminist posters have not postted a single decent argument in favour of the existance of the wage gap. The next time you hear a feminist ask why most of Holla Forums is against them, its beause of this. Because in an environment in which they are expected to defend and justify their own beleifs in a debate like everyone else they either dont turn up, or they do a pathetic job of it.
Oliver Flores
It would have been one thing if you wankers at least made a token effort to refute points made, but you don't even do that. You're fucking pathetic.
Ian King
I was busy arguing with someone else, care to point me toward your arguments, at least so I can read them?
Nolan Foster
Fuck off, you're too fucking stupid to bother having a serious discussion with.
Mason Brown
imagine how other people feel about you
Thomas Sanders
That's just weak.
Brayden Brooks
Taking care of kids is work.
One of those statements is not like the other.
As I keep saying, start with intellectual honesty. Then people might consider having serious discussions with you.
Camden Morris
I was just asking you to point me to your posts so I could be enlightened by your intelligence, m'lady.
Chase Watson
Don't fucking play dumb with me.
And you still didn't answer the actual argument present in the post. Go on, say that I made no arguments.
Elijah Richardson
It's because Holla Forums raids but also a significant portion of legit Holla Forums users themselves are anti-racism but as far as true equality on other fronts, nope. There's brosocialism–which is fine–and then there's /r9k/ but with Stirnerposting.
Posters here, like most male millennials and Gen Z seem to have no foundation in feminist theory, nor care to learn why the struggle was important or why it might continue. To them, feminism is entirely represented by the superficial, bourgeois corporatized MTV/Salon outragebait, the detached feminist professor authoring inane horseshit about Disney movies from the safety of a tenured gig, or some rando youtube personality.
Samuel Price
Hug me, I just want to love.
Jose Phillips
At no point was this ever said, just fuck off already, you've lost.
Aaron Clark
That's because it's a motte and bailey argument:
Blatant lie
Vacuously true deepity
If you want to talk about a lack of childcare, maternity leave, or telecommuting, that's fine. If you want to start off with a sexist broadside within the working class, get fucked.
It wasn't a movement deep enough to require any more definition than one line in a dictionary.
Brody Martin
Yes, which is why child care is a paid profession.
Shitting out kids is a choice, and you are expected to pay for their care if you chose to have them.
Anthony Butler
Lost what?
That's why there's been a universal feminist presence within marxism in the 20th century.
Jayden Edwards
Who expects this?
Benjamin King
Hey, I have an idea, let's ask a feminist about feminism:
en.wikipedia.org
Robert Hall
the argument
Michael Jones
Why do I need to argue with some Trot fucking liberal about the wage gap when you're just as likely to bitch the same way about being throne less than a bone to women in their 20's?
Honey you deserve to be told less than my shit.
Xavier Gonzalez
Honey, you need to be original with your posts. Because THIS, this won't do at all.
Joseph Hill
On Holla Forums?
Isaiah Hall
It's like when you leave a room and think the furniture and food comes to life.
Jose Murphy
The people who aren't mindlessly shitting out kids because they actually understand how to use birth control.
In a country like japan it would make sense for the government to incentivize reproduction, but in most places there simply isn't the need.
Anyway, even if we assume the government pays women standard child care rates for looking after their own kids, that still wouldn't be good enough for feminists because child care isn't a highly paid profession. A female civil engineer is going to be taking a big pay cut if she chooses to quit her job and look after her kids.
Also, under your model, would it be okay for both parents to quit their jobs and get paid to look after their kids?
Jaxon Murphy
This is honestly a good way of looking at it. Look at how demonized the Fight for 15 is. I want to fight for everyone to get higher wages (and a hell of a lot more) but in the meantime, if this is what it takes to at least talk about talk about raising wages… so be it
Asher Ward
You're right it wouldn't. Nothing short of the US Government being destroyed would be good enough for anyone who actually cares about these sorts of things.
We're on the same side and we want the same things. The only one who cares so much about the logistics of these issues happen to be you.
In the broad sense, social structures need to be changed, I don't care for the legal logistics of it. For all I care if I had my way legality wouldn't exist at all.
Matthew Gomez
Why do you hate disabled people.
Charles Miller
I see racism every day, and I despise it. I also see homophobia (against men). I see classism. I simply do not see sexism.
Sorry but feminism is absolutely shit.
t. straight white man
Christopher Butler
Do you want a cookie
Henry Thompson
i gotchu fam
Kevin King
Only in the most general terms (wanting happiness for all sapient life). We disagree on pretty much every aspect of implementation. For instance, you apparently don't give a fuck about trivialities like logistics, and I doubt very much that you support ideas like mass producing simulated child porn or helping large corporations replace workers with machines.
Jacob Jenkins
capped
Jaxon Butler
really makes you think doesn't it?
Charles Hall
Fucking what
Ethan Gomez
So you'd support a campaign to give upper management (and only them) a raise because, hey, at least people will be talking about raising wages?
Liam Harris
There's no way to pirate women's interests, if men couldn't pirate their own banal interests, there would be spending.
It just happens that clothes are expensive. :v)
Anthony Lee
I've been up all night and this is the shittiest thread I've ever been in all night on in leftypol
Anthony Green
Exactly my point. You are too blinded by ideology and your own stupidity to consider any solutions which aren't well within the mainstream of feminist thought.
Jeremiah Gomez
You do know not wanting boys to be molested or girls to be molested are equally valid ideas, and nobody is willing to "simulate" that for you
What
You think revulsion to that is feminist?
Nolan Diaz
Jeremiah Jenkins
No, I think you've given the issue about 5 seconds of thought, jumped to the conclusion that simulated CP is the same as real CP and automatically harms children, and then replied. As expected of a feminist who refuses to even consider the logistics of things.
Chase Gomez
No I was calling you creepy and a fucking weirdo, sorry
Daniel Fisher
The logistics of child porn, right
Jace Anderson
Don't bother replying. It's just another PG denier.
Alexander Allen
How else is the full automation coming to reality?
Nolan Sanders
I realized that. It's actually the whole point I was making. When faced with a complex problem and a taboo solution, you resort to an emotional reaction rather than a rational one. All the good intentions in the world won't help if you're too stupid to actually achieve them.
No, I was mocking your assertion that economic logistics don't matter as long as you yell "smash the state" and abolish all laws.
Oliver Allen
What argument does this address?
Christian Thomas
Were you ever molested? Most women were. Notice how I'm not saying "many", I'm saying "most". I'm not breaking new ground here, plenty of women spoke out about their experiences with molestation both publicly and in private; hell, I have had such experiences, too. It's fine that you do not see that (it's not really, but whatever), but you're going to enter total denial mode if you respond to this post, and this will make your implicit claim of speaking in good faith complete bollocks. We both know that this outcome is inevitable, so why did you bother at all? Ah, wait, I forgot that we're in an echo chamber. Carry on, then.
Levi Fisher
Exactly. Automation is good even if it costs workers jobs in the short term.
Anthony Kelly
Most men have been violently assaulted.
What exactly is your point, other than to devalue the meaning of the word "molested"?
Brayden Perez
You acknowledge my point as being true, and you can find no better solution than to simply discard it describing it as "vacuous". I don't know why you bot— oh, wait, echo chamber, forgot that again.
Next time you hear liberals droning on about gulags and holodomor, you take it like a chump, you hear me?
You know, that to find fault with socialist feminism you have to go full porky is not even sad, it's just… eh.
Luis Hernandez
us feminists thank you sir
Dylan Green
See? Even when you acknowledge the factual side of an argument, you still deny it. You adopt rightist tactics to refute an ideology you accuse of being rightist. You're a fucking fraud.
Carson Nguyen
ma'am, *tips fedora*
Kayden Brooks
That's because you can't jump from the fact that assaults are widespread for both genders to the idea that sexism exists.
Matthew Carter
Just fuck off.
Jeremiah Kelly
*pulls cord out of your child rape simulator*
nice reversion back to the general "assaults" term there
Aiden Carter
ebin
Yum
No I was not. I do not pretend to know how women have it. I'm just an observer. It's been my observation that women really do not have it bad, or suffer from sexism.
Usually the line thrown at white people is that they can't see racism. Well I certainly can. But I don't see sexism. If that makes me an evil bigoted prick then so be it. I don't have any ulterior motive.
Hunter Cruz
I've long argued that we should abandon the soviet-era communist symbolism and terminology. Just like "feminism", it has far too many bad associations and far too few good ones.
Jaxon Jones
Well, you are wrong, sexism exists. There, I explicitly said it. Will you admit its existence now? i somehow doubt that.
I seriously doubt that you can to the same extent that people who actually suffer from it do, and then we would be talking about the difference by a whole magnitude or two.
You're literally an alt-rightist.
Mautism, then. Castroism. Ugoism. Polpotism. Whatever. You just fucking take it.
Julian Hughes
Shit, forgot about North Korea. You have to accept that you'd love to live there because you're a socialist and all socialists are the same, regardless of how much they don't want to associate with each other, or even if they're actually socialists.
Chase Young
The fact that your deepity is true does not make it meaningful. Most women aren't quite as interested in career advancement, so what then? Penalize men? Force women to work harder?
In order for an argument to be legitimate, it must not merely be correct, it must also have some point beyond making random noise.
Levi Sanchez
good thing we're using text then fucko
Jayden Price
Nah, I'd need to see it for myself.
I had an alt right phase but I've always been left wing
Hudson Ward
Most fucking working class people aren't socialists, and yet you think that they should be, you lying fucking liar. You're refuting yourself in your every fucking word.
Daniel Young
Look, your argument is based on picking out one single statistic (rate of sexual molestation) in isolation and using it to claim that an entire gender systematically has it worse than another.
Anyone can do that and reach any conclusion they like. You're going to have to provide better evidence.
Isaac Johnson
I wouldn't really call myself a socialist, especially not in an argument with a liberal. I much prefer to actually describe the policies I'd like to see implemented. There's less room for ambiguity that way. ;)
Anthony Martin
QED.
1. QED, again.
2. That doesn't make sense. If you've always been a leftist, then that means you've never been an alt-rightist, and vice versa. Your desire to spout rightist nonsense while at the same time not claiming responsibility for your own words has led you to the point where what you say simply doesn't make sense.
Jackson Rivera
The thing is, I know that no argument I could possibly make will convince you since you aren't here to participate in meaningful discussion, so why even fucking bother?
Oh, whatever, just fuck off.
Connor Foster
Hello Pot, I'm Kettle.
Kayden Lewis
That's actually hilarious.
Nathaniel Morales
Wow, and you're also shameless enough to accuse me of that. I have no fucking words.
James Jenkins
As expected of feminists.
Josiah Thomas
As long as you only spout opinions and you don't give facts, datas or arguments, no.
Matthew Perez
Not an argument
I meant that I always was left wing before that and i'm left wing since that spell. But my views on sexism/racism never changed.
Aaron Rivera
You completely ignored the point: treating feminists as being a monolithic movement isn't merely wrong, it's dishonest. But of course, you're just going to reassert your statement without bother to back it up with anything at all.
Angel Bailey
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Ask yourself if you really considered the possibility of accepting that women aren't oppressed when you came into this thread.
Bentley Ward
Not necessarily true. I know I'm going to get shit for this for the same reason people object to the "I'm not a feminist" "Do you support fairness between the sexes" "Yes" "Then you're a feminist" "That's not real world feminism and hasn't been for decades" argument.
Support for virtually every individual socialist initiative, like unions, coops, single-payer medicine, third parties, NIT, commodity price controls, interest-free banking, trustbusting, progressive taxation, and public utility ownership typically hovers in the 50%-80% range in the USA. Even if they don't call themselves socialists, they support basically all of its tenets, so for practical purposes, most workers are indeed socialists.
Alexander Clark
Literally an alt-rightist.
Michael Ross
The thing is, the "true feminists" never seem to criticize the other feminists. In fact, that argument only ever gets pulled out when someone else calls you out on your bullshit. All the feminists in this thread are either defending the wage gap lie or staying conveniently quiet about it.
Kayden Reed
I suspect that number includes not only cucks with custody, but those forced to pay child support and alimony.
Camden Fisher
Maybe you should say that to feminists. If I point that some feminists are batshit crazy, the normal ones fall on me. If you don't want normal feminist to be associated with the stupid ones, maybe they should kick the stupid ones away from feminism.
Thomas Rogers
Anyone who isn't a feminist is an alt-rightist.
The left is truly dead.
Camden Perez
This is how you infiltrate and subvert a movement, yeah. It's happened over the years with all sorts of things. The radical left was one of the first places it was tried because the aim of liberation was easy to bait.
Adrian Jenkins
What they don't tell you is that the stupid ones make up the overwhelming majority of feminists and have control of every major feminist organization. It isn't possible to kick them out.
Of course, that doesn't stop them from defending feminism using the No True Scotsman argument.
Noah Lee
And we all know anyone who is not against alt right is a fascist.
Why is fascism on the rise, guys?
Daniel Johnson
You can make the same case for feminism, but of course it's completely different because feminism is bad because you said so.
See, you're acting in bad faith and are so obvious about it that I don't want to finish reading your post, and guess what? I won't.
Go fix North Korea before saying nice things about socialism. You won't do that? Fuck fucking off, then.
Yes. Quite literally. Fuck off.
Cameron Richardson
whatever you say
What's that?
Eli Long
Obsession with false flagging, even if only in the form of accusing one's opponents of systematically doing it, is one of certain tell-tale signs of the alt-right, so the joke's on you.
Jayden Miller
This. Most socialists today are stridently opposed to Bolshevism and all its offshoots, and many strains of socialism (such as the AnSyns who dominate Holla Forums, tanky shitposts aside) have an unbroken history of opposition against it.
With loopy feminists, on the other hand, they maintain an iron grip on feminist leadership, all feminists close ranks around them, no tarnish from references in official literature to funding links from loathsome organizations are acknowledged, and there are zero external disputes.
Negative Income Tax
Jeremiah Cooper
...
Aaron Murphy
Last time I checked, socialists are very vocal about DPKR being a bad kind of government. Just ask one and see if he defend it with his own life.
Samuel Anderson
New drinking game - take a shot every time someone exaggerates what you did and tells you it's a telltale sign of the alt right.
Camden Carter
see
Pick a better label which doesn't group you with complete lunatics.
I'd be dead.
Robert Rogers
I actually want them to get their wish, just so we can watch rape statistics shoot through the roof.
Owen Allen
Yeah, fuck off.
Aiden Morris
Good
Jace Myers
Where are all the feminists in this thread actually condemning mainstream feminism?
All I see is people defending feminism in general.
Ayden Walker
I'm not in the habit of spouting ad hominems that aren't even technically true. If I say that you're a stupid alt-rightist, it's because I genuinely believe that you're stupid and that you're alt-right. That you keep acting like someone whose entire paradigm was informed by Holla Forums is your own fucking problem. Now do fuck off.
Jordan Brooks
why are feminists so fucking annoying, christ
Dylan Jones
Does someone have a feminist bingo?
We should ban boring porn. Porn is either utter garbage or specialized fetish. Something is wrong there.
John Long
This tbh. When people start trying to get other leftists to take care of them it's missing the point. We're supposed to be liberated from class, not use the system for gimmedats.
Just because you say this doesn't make it true.
Just because you believe it doesn't make it true.
According to what?
I'm pretty confident that I was on this board first. How about you fuck off?
Gabriel Bailey
"How could people elect Richard Spencer?" - you, 20 years from now.
Brody Gomez
See? You're not even trying to refute arguments, you just assert that you see nothing, and since you see nothing, there must be nothing. It's a rightist tactic. I am not saying that you're a dumb meanie and I'm going to punish you by saying that you're a rightist, no, I'm saying that you actually are a rightist based on your behaviour and expressed motivations. You can act like all alt-right cunts do when they're accused of something they don't want to admit and play at smug ignorance, but don't twist my words, you cunt.
Jaxon Ramirez
1) Show me one single feminist most self-professed feminists would agree is a feminist, who disagrees with the misandrist, misanthropic political-lezbo freaks. All I can think of are people like Cathy Young and CH Sommers.
2) 99.999% of the loopiest "socialists" are in fact feminists, black supremacists, or some other flavor of broadly identical, non-socialist idpol.
3) Socialism is still relevant in the 1st-world, and has yet to accomplish numerous aims. Feminism is finished, victorious, and anyone who describes their occupation as "feminist activism" in the 1st-world beyond a handful of extremely trivial borderline nonissues is delusional by definition.
Logan Powell
Porn should be made by enthusiasts. People who are really into sex and want to show how to do it right make the best porn.
OK then point us toward something. Burden of proof is on the person making a positive claim, not a negative one.
Burden of proof is a rightist tactic? At this rate so is breathing. I would think that you're false flagging but I have a hard time believing someone has that much energy. I mean I've false flagged before but this is an insane and byzantine level of autism if that's what's going on.
Michael Bell
So, you believe he is not one and will get offended by that word?
So, you believe he is alt rightist?
We call that double think.
Jaxson Morgan
See, you cunts can't hold the pretence for a single fucking thread. Why the fuck do you bother pretending in the first place? Are you people fucking stupid? Is that it? Are you just lucking in mental capacity to act like actual human beings? What the fuck is your fucking problem? You're fucking impossible. If I only now heard of your type, I wouldn't have believed you actually exist. Absolutely fucking ridiculous. I'm out, have fun, you won.
Aiden Collins
Found it. Feel free to check the boxes.
Charles Johnson
Yep, feminism is certainly a great movement!
Ryan Cox
You still don't know facts and formal logic is a tool of the patriarchy to oppress women? Don't you read the latest fashionable intellectual?
Xavier Rivera
The fact that this is Holla Forums and most of this thread is right-wing propaganda about feminists is kind of alarming.
Sexism doesn't exist, western feminists have it easy, there's no problems of sexism in the west, muh ME womz, etc.
Fucking hell, half of the posters in this thread are pathetic man babies who can't differentiate between radical feminism, marxist feminism, intersectional feminism, and liberal feminism. You guys just gobble up right-wing propaganda about feminism like anti-communists gobble up right-wing propaganda about communism.
I understand being anti-idpol, but outright denying sexism? How many layers of dumbfuckery did you get on and how?
Joshua Jones
To be fair, that isn't quite what they said. The grammar was a bit confusing but it makes sense when broken down:
(brackets added for clarity)
Michael Phillips
Only rapists talk like that.
If a women say she have been raped, you put the guy in jail. Any other option is sexist.
Jeremiah Sanders
Like your Holla Forums infographic? Come the fuck on.
Also, without getting too in the weeds with crime stats, I can tell you right off the bat that any simple stats you see regarding sentencing aren't telling you the whole story (e.g., priors, mitigating/aggravating factors, victims' input, etc. There is a reason criminal trials have a sentencing phase.)
Cameron Garcia
Okay, but I still don't get it.
The point of a conversation is to attack the worldview of the others to see if it can survive opposition. By just calling someone your opponent, what are they trying to do?
Levi Russell
Of course those are cherry-picked statistics too. It was a counter-point to your cherry-picked statistics. You can't decisively decide which gender has it worse without systematically reviewing thousands and thousands of indicators.
In my opinion it's stupid to try and treat people as monolithic genders rather than individuals anyway. Why not fix the problems faced by individuals rather than trying to balance out the suffering of entire genders?
Zachary Gomez
Of course it's still a stupid argument. I wasn't defending it really, just explaining the mangled grammar.
Jackson Torres
Neither are known to be very good at understanding statistics or economics.
Brandon Morris
Hey femposters, if you're actually false flaggers I want you to know I don't think feminism is totally worthless. Only an idiot would take nutjobs as representative of the whole. I am still patiently waiting for feminism to demonstrate insightful analysis. Maybe it's out there but I haven't found it. I won't write off the entire ideology but I won't embrace it either. It's up to you to win people over, you know. I'll wait.
Nathaniel Butler
Thanks for mansplaining that to me you muh privileged sinner.
Jonathan Lopez
I'm calling people in this thread alt-right because there are literally alt-right Holla Forums memes being used.
See:
Mason Parker
This was meant to say shit lord.
Site is broken again.
Fix your shit wheelyfag.
Bentley Wright
k
Isaiah Edwards
The alt right doesnt exist.
I think its just something the alt left created to make themselves not look as much like fringe lunatics.
Justin Miller
I'll rather bitch until I turn into a jackal than "turn some" liberal over lol
Nathaniel Robinson
hahahahaha
Lincoln Nguyen
Omg
Henry Cooper
It's easy to spot them because they genuinely believe all feminism is the type that hits the average channer right in the guts–the kind that believes if we just have more female superhero movies equality will be achieved. It's kind of easy to believe "sexism isn't real" when that kind of thing is what you care about the most.
Mason Price
Then why are you even here discussing politics and government? You understand these things are used for the collective, right?
Jaxson Lee
You don't realize that bitching about how Holla Forums just doesn't get feminism makes the actual right-wingers look more sane than you do to people outside that argument? When ancaps or nazis come here and argue their ideology, Holla Forums explains why they're wrong. When anti-feminists come here and argue their ideology…?
Angel Turner
Spencer coined the term you dunce
Josiah Phillips
Prickly? Is that you?
Ethan Gutierrez
Im guessing 'spencer' is a mod on this board?
David Mitchell
...
Ryder Collins
I do act like a good human being. Feminists don't.
They're fundamentally unpleasant people following a warped ideology.
Alexander Hall
I'm just a nice guy ;_;
Andrew Nelson
Would you then kindly point to types of sexism that are prevalent in west no mention of Colone incident, since that was done by non-westerners?
Joseph Ramirez
...
Henry Murphy
It says a lot about feminists that "nice guy" is used as an insult.
Xavier Wood
They think im blind or something?
Daniel Smith
I mean if they had a picture of Obama and the headline called him 'a black socialist', people would ask why the need to point out that hes black.
Lucas Jenkins
Pic related Christ
And they still have one of ours as a fugitive in Cuba
It says a lot about liberals when they expect something from everyone for just being "nice".
Parker Foster
God election nationalists are utterly blonde
Julian Thompson
She did commit a crime, so why she should not be punished? Is it sexism to jail females who commit crimes?
Gabriel Collins
The state deserved the crime lol.
Brody Butler
Because the poor are universally oppressed and it makes sense to implement policies to help them. Women are not.
Landon Cruz
They could have called the guy 'a brunette nationalist' and it would have been equally valid.
Cameron Long
Also, I'm talking about Assata Shakur, and the details of the crime remain utterly dubious to say the least. She was probably framed for the altercation by police.
Jose King
I'm glad your idea of sexism is limited to straight murderous violence, and is only of note when it's politically expedient to you (those damn barbarous browns)
John Scott
Who? Seriously, if feminism is important to you why just let your opponents come and make all the arguments they want without refuting any of them or presenting any of your own ideas? What's the strategy here? Shitposting and whining just makes their point for them, as far as that goes.
John Myers
You're right. But to say you're more "oppressed" than woman in poverty, or in the same way, it's just laughable shit.
You have no solutions to poor communities and it's very telling you haven't lived in any in an urban environment.
Dylan Lopez
...
Luis Jackson
I've posted at length about them in other threads. Threads which feminism was conspicuously absent from.
Daniel Hughes
And your point is?
If someone somewhere come from a place people disagree with you, what is the fucking big deal?
Have more Holla Forums memes.
Jacob Cruz
Are you being willfully dense? He's a self-described White Nationalist, as in proper noun
Landon Bell
I`m not interested in your slave morality or its justifications for violence.
Just like the pizzagate, it totally is not a conspiracy theory ;^)
Elijah Lee
Poverty nowadays is when you still have the iphone 6 rather than the latest iphone 7.
Anthony Bailey
"about them"
You don't know shit
Marxists are there. Why the fuck would anyone bring up women's issues in those threads?
Owen Campbell
that's Richard Spencer, the one who came up with "alt-right"
Holla Forums only stopped using it when he was exposed as a clown
I'm not a liberal and I really don't see your point
Chase Sanchez
See that middle pic
it's u
Adam Martinez
I think the chap who first came up with the alt right is called Milo Yiannolnnoploppypants.
Nicholas Baker
Yes you are.
You're a liberal who's entitled to attention for being nice. When you're called a bitch for it, you get upset. It's classic stage one liberalism, it's terminal.
Kevin Perry
...
Oliver Ramirez
I grew up in fucking poor LA don't tell me what poverty isn't or is you fucking suburbanite liberal
Kayden Roberts
Strange, people begging in the street are 90% male.
I could swear there is a billion charity programs exclusively made for women, too.
Joseph Walker
LOL.
I really hope you are being sarcastic.
Logan Sullivan
Nice liberal talking point buddy. Shit like iphones have gotten cheaper, but shit like health insurance and rent is getting more and more expensive, and there are fewer good jobs to pay for thm
Hudson Cooper
I measure poverty with the number of kids without shoes in the street.
There is no poverty left in the west.
David Green
Poor LA isn't in poverty you guys. Especially not from the 2000's and earlier, it's just a little poor
See you have to be in South Africa to be poor.
Noah Howard
hahahahahahahahahaha
Anything else you want to tell me from Colorado you fucking liberal dumbshit
Angel Nelson
Strange, where did you get that the homeless are 90% male?
Nathaniel Cooper
damn you went full dickensian on us
Lucas Cooper
The poorest people in the US are still among the richest 1% globally.
Get some fucking perspective and stop crying because you dont have the latest plastic chinese gadget made by REAL poor people.
Dominic Wilson
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Caleb Diaz
Yes, it's why we should secure the good jobs, don't let in more people than what our housing market can afford and force big pharmas to have fair prices.
Just kidding, let all the thugs in the world in, send all the jobs oversea and use taxmoney to artificially inflate the price of healthcare.
Austin Rodriguez
Is it just me or does ACT seem like she's false flagging as her opponents? They keep hitting her favorite talking points.
Josiah Collins
Those homeless women can just whore themselves out of poverty to labor aristocracy, its not the same for both sexes.
Zachary Mitchell
What the fuck are you even talking about
Isaac James
from his ass, like where all the "it's straight white guys who are really oppressed" shit comes from
the point that you care what race or gender or sexual identity a fucking HOMELESS person is… you've lost the plot
Justin Lopez
Really, none of those items allow any valid rebuttal, beyond perhaps the basis of being irrelevant to a particular discussion.
The recycled alt-right memes are 50% trolling, 50% valid just because turd-wave feminism is that retarded. Just like I think she's little better than Anne Coulter, but I still spam Genocidal Paglia memes whenever postmodernists rear their head.
Also:
Cooper Long
Great response. Well thought out and backed up with facts and information.
Austin Jackson
You do know that's what homeless men do too, right?
No, impossible. I don't fuck those!
Get real socdem
Leo Green
Show me a pic like that in color.
Jayden Collins
Nah, homeless men are all in jail, they can only sell their asses for cigarettes.
Henry James
You're fucking liberals and you never lived in poverty.
Repeat it back to me.
Jonathan Jones
And women aren't?
God fucking liberals in this thread are horrendous. It's all Holla Forums shit waking up this morning
Owen Ortiz
Yes but the market forces wont allow substantial amount of them to rise into labor aristocracy.
Eli Sullivan
You're the bitch pretending to be a Finnish art bureaucrat and you're talking about labor aristocracy to men who whore themselves out this is ridiculous
Cooper Morales
Exactly. Nobody in the west has experienced real poverty.
In my country, what is counted as 'the poverty level' is above the average income in most countries.
In my country people in poverty are fat and have smart phones.
In most countries people in poverty are thin and bony and live in a shack.
Eli Nguyen
...
Adam Williams
Okay, this statistic is a national secret or something, I can't find it.
The only thing I found was:
Single adult males between the ages of 25 and 55 account for almost half the homeless population (47.5 per cent).
Youth between the ages of 16 and 24 account for 20 per cent of the homeless. An estimated 25 to 40 per cent of homeless youth are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual or transgender.
Logan Jones
God Holla Forums everyone here isn't a third worldist
Get your mask straight you look like a fucking liberal dope
Julian Scott
The SocDem is being retarded, again.
Connor Hernandez
Anarcho "Bullying Men In The Highschool Pen" Feminist
Adam Nelson
There are about 400,000,000 people living in the US. There are about 7,000,000,000 people living in the world. 400,000,000/7,000,000,000=~5.5%. You fail at basic arithmetic, to disregard everything else.
Joshua Morgan
Get back to me when that's about loitering and homelessness
You can't find it, that you're so liberal you actually believe the homeless population is 90% male
holy shit
Chase Davis
Ho, funny you mention that, I haven't looked for the stat about "sexual minorities" of all kind, but I found it.
What do you mention races?
Jonathan Ramirez
The guy I was originally pointing this out to say he lived in LA.
One of the most economically prosperous regions of the globe.
Obviously some people here are not from the west and they have experienced real poverty.
James Jones
I think all three of you are retarded but Trip and Maoist don't even understand the liberal's point.
Jonathan Ross
well damn, you sure convinced me.
stop trying to categorise everyone with your psychiatry nonsense
Christopher Perez
Mother of god you are stupid
Have you never heard of southeast LA?
Nathaniel Lee
In the west, you can be called poor while sleeping under a roof, eating all you can, having infinite clean water and medical assistance, all of that being secured forever.
This is not what words like poverty or misery mean.
Levi Flores
I was simply pointing out that inherit sexism keeps those homeless men as beggars and limits their social mobility.
Adrian Lee
Holla Forums pretends to be socialist based on limited amounts of filtered information on what communism is
you won't believe what happens next
Jeremiah Hernandez
en.wikipedia.org
Milo had nothing to do with it
Lucas Nguyen
again
You're the bitch pretending to be a Finnish art bureaucrat and you're talking about labor aristocracy to men who whore themselves out this is ridiculous
Jaxson Torres
...
Brandon Wood
I've seen giant ass TVs with satellite in farmer's shacks in rural, poor SE Asia, they all have fancy smartphones too. African villagers have smartphones.
Literally Thomas Friedman liberal tier garbage being spouted right now. Who knew that having apps was the new arbiter of wealth?
Camden Barnes
I can see people sleeping in the street and hobos are common. It is very unusual to see a women in there.
Sebastian Clark
Why are you being such a class reductionist?
Charles Bailey
Because liberals talking about poverty need to be shut up :v)
Daniel Sanders
400€/m of RSA. It's the average wage in Poland.
Aiden Anderson
Oh, can you?
Jordan Wilson
Yes. It is called going outside.
Jack Robinson
I'm glad you disproved your own bullshit, at least.
Jacob Butler
I was being sarcastic. I was mocking you, dumb libshit
Chase Ortiz
it's not 90% but around 60%. Which still says something. See this post
Landon Lopez
haha got u i was being ironic
Jonathan Thomas
In the post you quoted it literally said around 47% you dumbass.
Christ can I even blame the stupidity of the liberal who admitted he fell for the alt right
Ethan Sanchez
My own class is irrelevant. Majority of leftist leadership historically has been form petit-bourgeois or labor aristocracy.
Henry Jackson
again
You're the bitch pretending to be a Finnish art bureaucrat and you're talking about labor aristocracy to men who whore themselves out this is ridiculous
Julian Richardson
You do realize that single adult males between the ages of 25 and 55 is not the same as "male" right? I've met plenty of homeless men well over 55, and when you include homeless families the number of men will go up.
Joseph Martinez
Stranger still, the richest people are provably more than 90% male, and females among them are usually inheritors to their riches. But that doesn't count, does it? #manistherealvictim
Grayson Brooks
The percentage of homeless people older I doubt is very much larger.
Ian White
I was pointing out the opposite, that they can`t rise to labor aristocracy via prostitution. Calm down a bit.
Grayson Bennett
I'm starting to wonder why you're not banned given how much you like to derail shit.
Anthony Nguyen
Yes for SINGLE ADULT MALES BETWEEN 25 AND 55
That doesn't count all the other men, you fucking clown
Men are the majority of homeless people. FUcking christ
Hudson Butler
you would be surprised.
Nicholas Sanders
Yeah, because old people being unable to work and not having anyone to take care of them is so fucking uncommon. You are such a fucking poseur.
Samuel Evans
It's funny how you just decided that old hobos are definitely mostly men. Statistics you found don't paint a complete picture? Just fill the blanks using your imagination!
Dominic Wright
Ho!
I was not.
Oliver Brown
Yeah I'm sure that the men who fall outside of that specific cohort make up less than 3% of the homeless population.
Charles Torres
Can you read?
The mods probably hate you more.
The token homeless people who don't matter to me
Josiah Torres
Anarcho "Sleeping on the street? Here's a fist to eat" Feminist
Kevin Morgan
You really ought to stop posting when you are on your period.
Owen Evans
Literally on the first page of search results:
Joshua Powell
I think I like the irony in this world.
Jonathan Watson
Anarcho "Psychiatry Shaolin" Feminist
Ayden Martinez
Based on what, lol?
Elijah Gonzalez
Yeah exactly.
Thats what I was trying to tell some idiot from LA and hes completely ignorant of how people live around the globe.
Elijah Ortiz
Annnnd, another loud feminist who is just a man hatter.
Evan Thomas
Nigga was actually banned at one point due to turning threads into personal blogs.
Daniel Young
That sounds like a fun shounen ripoff of Alice in Wonderland
Lucas Torres
Another liberal who has pity points for the poor when convenient.
Banned twice one for a day, another for half a day.
Nothing rebel or muke haven't encountered.
Jacob Clark
You don't say.
Sebastian Bennett
Pic related. It is common in third world countries. This is what the word poverty mean.
Connor Cooper
You're the ignorant one you don't even know LA's population is drastically economically diverse. You've never even fucking heard of South LA until now fucking hell
Luis Richardson
Both of whom have learned their lesson.
Fascinating how someone in their mid twenties can have a break down every other month.
Ryan Cooper
Holla Forums pretends to be socialist based on limited amounts of filtered information on what communism is
you won't believe what happens next
Liam Taylor
Holy shit this really is staggering levels of drama queen. Who gives a shit about those massive retards, and people disliking you and finding your ramblings dubious doesn't mean they hate poor people.
Hunter Reed
Excuse me? I have no pity for the poor.
I just think they must be given enough to stay in the game.
Julian Hughes
Have you ever been outside suburbia or the cities?
We have this in America.
Robert Rogers
lel
Calling you fucks liberals never gets old
Charles Bell
Take off the flag and quit playing debate coach.
Evan Turner
Denial never does.
Luke Cruz
...
Brayden Davis
and it comes out
Elijah Hughes
You're talking to more than one person, you know that right.
Colton Baker
You would fit.
Brayden Torres
Yeah it's Holla Forums.
Your denial never does. True.
Jose Nguyen
Do you?
Dominic Lewis
I think you know it's time to stop.
Bentley Gutierrez
I get the last word ;v)
Brody Barnes
Dude she took "no you" to a new level
Grayson Perry
fuck off
Well the article I linked is for the UK, the graph was for the US I think. It varies slightly across the first world but AFAIK men make up the majority of homeless people in all FW countries
Jeremiah Brooks
According to our Asian anarcho feminism lesbian, Communism is based on feeling.
Christian Gray
You fuck off liberal shit. You didn't even care about communism until a month ago.
Cooper Campbell
*anarcha
Levi Myers
What the actual fuck. You're talking about half of those homeless people there.
Jeremiah Scott
I have been a communist for longer than you!
Brayden Martinez
You are talking to more than one person.
James Gonzalez
You're not actually an anarchist if you think seniority holds weight.
Samuel Bailey
Nah, I'm only seeing one of those ITT.
William Thompson
I've been a communist for longer than that. Not that it fucking matters. You don't get a medal for reaching xyz years of holding an ideology
Evan Carter
I don't think liberals hold weight ;)
Joseph Ward
You don't get a medal for cruising from ideology to ideology either.
Aiden Wilson
How many people in LA get cataracts because of poor nutrition during their adolescence?
If the answer is zero or very few, then you dont have poverty in a global sense. As they do in Tibet or North Korea or the Central African republic.
TL;DR you are completely ignorant of the world outside your doorstep.
Grayson Baker
You know none of the people who do. How many people starve in LA? Work shifts serving shitty customers like your libshit parents?
God you're pathetic
Aaron Long
Yeah, you're talking to someone with a victim fetish who grew up poor for the US and is in absolute denial that it could be worse. And if she's actually Asian it's even sadder. She wasn't even black people poor in the US and she's trying to act like she had it as bad as fucking AIDS/malaria ridden babies.
Lincoln Ortiz
I have HIV Malaria, I'm coming clean
Jonathan Wilson
In an American sense of not having three cheeseburgers a day, probably quite a lot.
But in terms of being below the minimum nutrition and caloric level for good health, very few.
As I said before if you looked up the rate of poverty linked diseases like Cataracts it would be very low in LA compared to say Tibet.
Nathaniel Hughes
I don't. Certainly my beliefs have changed over time (whose haven't?) but I consider myself on the left.
Tyler Nelson
this is depressingly pathetic
From liberalism to liberalism, and ape hopping from tree to tree.
Kayden Martin
is there anything that isn't liberal according to you?
Henry Fisher
I know.
Did you see the documentary where those doctors went around North Korea fixing little kids cataracts?
Its really nice when they get the surgery and they can finally see again. For kids that must mean a lot.
In my country, only people who grew up during the war have cataracts. And thats in their old age. Because we are in the west where real poverty doesnt really exist.
Adrian Rivera
...
Austin Evans
Yeah I feel like Im talking to the wall..
At least on pol they do try to read what you put and respond directly to it rather than repeating things that have already been proven false.
Anthony White
Sorry for having a country.
I know we are meant to be pushing for globalism.
Jordan Myers
Ho, look, another white muh privileged who tell blacks in the US they don't know what poverty is.
Gabriel Garcia
I hear you. In fact you can scroll up in this very thread to see that and the two playing off of each other.
Carter Turner
You don't come from anywhere but the United States.
Charles Torres
HMMMMMMMM
William Nguyen
rofl how many are the now-filtered tripfag?
Elijah Thomas
Are we including the ones where she's pretending to be someone else?
Chase Green
But you never went anywhere.
Jace Hughes
That would include you
Juan Russell
88 I think. That number really makes you think
Chase Wright
...
Leo Powell
The only way you could have put on a sadder display than you have is if you were also posting as the people explaining how crazy you are.
Caleb Johnson
Im not saying nowhere in the US is poor.
Some of the Native American places are incredibly poor. Like blackwater arizona.
I think the problem is with the definition of poverty.
In the US you can be in poverty but earn more than the average wage in most other countries.
When they describe people with flat screen TVs and Iphones as 'in poverty', it seems like a slap in the face to people who have been physically ravaged by real poverty such as having low nutrition during childhood.
Joshua Campbell
...
Joseph Scott
Holla Forums will try to convince people of their ideology. It's part of why the aut right has become pretty popular.
Jackson Johnson
Bland crusty bread sentence
Charles Jackson
Notice how pol is the right (politically) and also everything pol says is right (factually).
Wyatt Peterson
It's because the far right like cold facts and events currently happening while the far left only care about endless and fruitless debates on ideological purity.
John Wright
This is accurate except for the part about facts.
Carson Foster
By repeatedly spouting the same tired memes over and over again, creating an illusion of lack of an alternative and mentally exhausting the opposition until it gives in. Arguing with Holla Forumstards is a marathon where you must run as much distance as is covered by all the Holla Forumstards in the "discussion" combined. They don't fucking read anything even when they reply to it.
The only reason Holla Forums doesn't argue about ideological purity is because they completely lack in mental integrity to the point where they can't have an actual ideology.
Isaiah Walker
I was referencing things like
Aaron Young
Everyone who disagree with me must be an idiot, otherwise they would think like me.
Blake Edwards
So not facts but infographics.
Bentley Barnes
...
Alexander Russell
Holla Forums doesn't really have a coherent ideology when you get down to it. They have bits and pieces that can stitch together with RLY MAKE YOU THINK that plays on prejudices but that's all.
It was a thread about feminism. What do you expect? I tried to do my part having an actual discussion and then by filling it up faster so maybe it would hit the bump limit before tomorrow.
Leo Lee
Flat screen TVs and smartphones have had their costs driven down by continued innovation and competition. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for access to good nutrition or affordable housing or healthcare. You can have all the iphones in the world and they still won't provide shelter or make your stomach full.
Juan Wilson
And it's why they have more success. It is easy to make people agree with one particular position on one particular event. To get people agreeing on books of ideology is hard.
Boom! More people!
Boom! More people!
Bentley Nguyen
But it is assumed that if you have money to invest in a TV, then your spending in food and other vital things are covered.
Matthew Bell
Yup. People are already trained to think this way by a political system that defines ideologies according to mostly unrelated issues tied together by a vague values system and trigger words.
Zachary Perry
kek, glad I got included
Adrian Cox
Watching your ten paragraphs of thoughtful analysis responded to with rapid-fire autistic screeching concluding with a vague acknowledgment of conversational engagement reminded me of why 3rd-wave feminists are worse than Holla Forumsacks.
Caleb Evans
Me too thanks. :^)
Jonathan Harris
Very true and for someone like my 70 year old father its even more astounding that people in the modern era in the west are described as living in poverty.
My father grew up when rationing was still in place from the war. Everyone was stick thin due to massive shortages and REAL poverty. Kids were small and underdeveloped due to malnourishment.
It was common for mothers to skip meals so they could feed their children.
So for him some overweight slag with twelve smart devices and a cable TV subscription moaning that she is in poverty is a huge slap in the face.
Chase Sanders
This is Holla Forums, right?
Noah Watson
I sometimes call it /millenialpol/
Jose Gomez
She was saying that poverty in the third world is no worse than poverty in the first world. It's not a competition, just that it's shocking how out of touch asian trip cunt is.
Juan Rivera
No I wasn't.
William Jenkins
It's a bourgeois distraction from the problems of unemployment.
Parker Myers
Unemployment is only a problem under capitalism
Austin Sanders
There isn't much of an unemployment problem under slavery.
How do you institute a minimum income and still keep people employed?
Jaxson Peterson
Wealth is relative. Something moronic Marxists on this board seem to have never learned which can easily be found if they read /biz/ instead of shitting it up with their stupid shilling.
I can't even imagine how anyone here can think they are apart of the "proletariat", which is stated to be the middle class by the stupid books they keep shouting at us to read, and they tell us to read Marx. The fact of the matter is, we do, which is why every single economist and intellectual of merit laughs at them for idiotic debunked notions like Labour Theory of Value, Economicentric history(how ironic), and the ridiculous idea that workers in capitalist nations who labor voluntarily and of mutual agreement of their own free will are slaves. These morons here haven't read real book in their lives, that's why they're losers and the best proof of that is to take a look at who owns this board. We know where he lives and how he lives and what he looks like, a typical middle class (his family owns MULTIPLE automobiles no less) skinny pasty underaged looking child that still lives with his parents who fulfills all the negative connotations and stereotypes of modern leftism.
Please stop shilling on /biz/ and 4chan Holla Forums. Nobody likes you. Not even your own fellow leftists want you.
Thanks.
Merry Jesusmas and have a Happy New Year.
Kevin Harris
This one meme is so obviously untrue that I honestly do not understand why ayncaps bother with it. According to ayncap definition of free will, I can find you hanging off a cliff and then extract from you a promise to become my literal slave for the rest of your life in exchange for rescue, and that would be completely legitimate because the fact that your only other choice in the matter is dying does not matter and it's your own fault for being a human being in the first place. If that really is how free will is defined under capitalism, then it's not fucking free will regardless of how many times you assert the opposite. You can call an anal rape a birthday cake, that won't actually make it anything like a fucking cake, you lying liar.
Persecution complex much?