Tfw union guys make $35+ more dollars per hour than I do for the same work

Justify this leftycucks. Unions are just a way to give lazy nepotist assholes big money while they pretend they are such smug little bigshots

Other urls found in this thread:

sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130404072923.htm
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Management_Relations_Act_of_1947
independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-lives-matter-backing-black-business-a7487811.html
wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/11/pers-o11.html
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Why haven't you joined the union then idiot? You can do less work and make more money.

Sounds like a good reason to start a union

You can't get into it unless you know someone.

I don't have the fucking resources

That's not what a union is supposed to be like. What is it?

That's the power of collective bargaining. Figure out a way to get into the union or approach one of the organizers about bringing your shop into the fold.

Most trade unions (in the US at least) only take so many apprentices a year so a lot of the slots are filled with people who have connections. You can still take the entrance exam and be put on a list which you might get pulled from and thrown into the apprentice program.

Sounds like you're giving away a lot of surplus productivity

where the fuck do you think you are?

Dude the iww and similar "unions" aren't proper unions, it's basically a leftist club. I won't get paid any more if I join them. They just do activism and stuff.

God bless unions.

The apprentice programs don't even garuntee you permanent residence in the union. I knew a guy who was part of a train mechanic's union and for three years they made him do legwork and menial labor and when the time came for him to start real work he had no experience and they let him go. They need a bunch of "apprentices" to do that kind of stuff but they can't make everyone a journeyman and pay em 50+ an hour so they pull this shit

They usually lay you off once you hit journeyman rate. You have to work out of the hall until you can find a shop who will employ you steadily. That was my experience at least but I was in a trade that's very specialized. Less specialized or trades with a lot of guys may have different experiences.

I've personally never heard of apprentices not getting training and being fired before they hit journeyman rate but I wouldn't put it past them. Sometimes guys get thrown into generic industrial worker unions with the hopes that they'll get into the apprentice programs but never get the opportunity.

There is no justification for you being underpaid for your labor. You and your fellow exploited workers should join together and bargain collectively to see your pay increased.

Fuck i would do anything for a union job.

Daily reminder that train mechanics make more and have more benefits than software developers

Porky is fucking you. That is your one leverage. What else is there to say. Unions aren't without problems but blind trust of your employers, gigantic corporations who could give less than an infinitesimal shit about you, is going to get you this.

I'd rather trust a Union. It's porkies fault they don't like it when labor mobilizes in whatever way

What kind of backwards place do you live? Because unions around don't operate like that. Either everybody gets paid the same or not, that's how unions work. Even if you choose to not be a member, they still will for your sallary raised.

…..join the union….be enterprising in the easiest way possible

Holy fucking shit you are retarded

Holla Forums would point out how these lines began to diverge at the same time mass immigration started, and that diversity made worker solidarity impossible.

What is Holla Forums's counter argument.

That doesn't sound like any union I've ever heard of, most are clamouring for more membership. Which particular union do you speak of?

...

Lives are in the hands of train mechanics. For most software developers this is not the case. What is your point?

'muh manual labour is not as noble as thinking labour'

Why the fuck not?

They are both the working class, one is exploited more and has no collective bargining rights yet is still exploited for their labor. This makes them victims of Capital to a higher degree than most, and yet it is the ones with still less recognition. They're also more communist.

Not to make this a contest but Hispanic labor is not without its own respect, you simply cannot be a radical and wish them away in Capitalism,. it's reformist nonsense to make Capitalism easier for us.

Not to mention, I very very very doubt that It's not just that, I think it's more policy that the American state institutes that makes it shittier for all of the above. Various.

Immigration in the American sense is a leftover election buzzword

We've been having this rehashed argument for over 30 years now, each election.

It's not them who should have lower wages, it's everyone else that should have similar wages to theirs. We've been saying this all along, but classcucking is a hell of a drug.

The idea of a global proletariat in a world where there will be 4 billion africans by the end of a century, and not enough food to feed everyone, is a really stupid fucking fantasy. Scarcity is coming and choices will have to be made.

Sounds like if there were more unions there would be more spaces for internships.

apprenticeships even

I love how liberals always whine about leftists being 'jealous' of the bourgeois when they despise any worker slightly better off than them.

I was referring to difficulty of both said jobs. Unionized train mechanics make far more than helicopter mechanics

american unions are elitist as fuck cucks who don't want to fight against the bosses since some of them already have a comfortable life. They have 0% class consciousness and solidarity for fellow workers. You are right for being pissed, those guys are not our comrades.

Wrong. We can support, I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but about two billion more people.Food wise. We could feed our entire population.

Ask yourself, why this would be? It is not simply a conspiracy to get rid of the poor, to starve them out, but it is neglect to give a shit by commodification of the subsistence itself, food.

Africa will increase it's population four fold in the next 85 years. That's an increase of 3 billion.

The Arabs, Indians, and Chinese are running out of water and won't be able to grow food at their current rates for much longer. Not to mention that China already owns massive amounts of African land to grow food for themselves (and the chinese really dont' give a fuck about the environment, so don't expect that to be sustainable either)

I'm talking about facts and reality, not philosophy, so this might be a little difficult for you to understand.

Precisely why I've never joined one.
The attitude of the union bosses and most members can be summed up as "Fuck those other guys, I got mine".
The way the unions here are structured lends itself to this mindset, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

The world populations are actually leveling to pre World War II levels pan race. The baby boom, worldwide, is over.

This isn't just the poor uncared for white masses. There are others. If you want to shit on the poor, be my guest, but that's not why I'm a Marxist or a Collectivist. I'm not a reformist, it's not my job for others to suffer for my contentment with labor in Porky's world.


Not particularly.

Top fucking kek, stay classcucked OP

BTFO

Yeah that's simply not true. The fertility rate of most sub saharan african nations is over 6.

Also I don't see you giving a shit about the tribes of the Amazon Brazil has utterly destroyed who's culture we knew/know so little of.

If you're against the elimination of language and culture, it's best not to worry about the American way and your freedums.

Reagan

It is. It could be higher, but the trends show everything lowering. Those damn arabs, those damn hispanics, those damn Murslirms, those damn Asians,

Everyone is trending downwards because of material conditions.

I know what argument you're making and stop before you embarrass yourself.

Best response yet. My dad loves that guy, his reason: "the 80's were a great time"

Just look up the history of the AFL-CIO. They literally work for the CIA and US ngo's suppressing labor movements around the world.

You're basically denying reality, then implying racism for believing any reputable demography study.

Carter actually.

No I'm stating the object fact birth rates world wide are lowering. Cross with the fact, African women have to try for birth more often because of stillbirth chances from the environment they're living in, not related to them being genetically designed to hurt your feelings by having children.

They would be wrong but have a point. What our graph and their muh immigration have in common is that both are central to neoliberalism, which became the dominant paradigm in the late 70s.

meanwhile in the real world…

Even in Africa and Asia, the birthrates are high but they are declining. I don't have the source rn but the panic of overpopulation is not grounded on reality.

a TFR going from 7 to 5 in 20 years is still a fucking population explosion

What I was saying wasn't emotional shit. Stop being stubborn and listen.

Worldwide birth rates are trending downwards, even in Africa where they're high. Explosions do not matter, the trend is down, down, down. Globally.

And the reason the birth rate is so high is in poorer nations women who actually want to be mothers, have to try multiple times. This is a problem even in America, the problem of stillbirth. It happens a remarkable amount just in America alone. And not just American first world, Canada, Europe etc. The point is it's worse in nations with less developed health care systems, especially women's health care.

So they have to try multiple times, one of which may result in multiple offspring, because simply the stillbirth rate out populates the birth rate.

Not to mention religious prominence in nations in poverty forcing women to have children and settle down in their way, forcing this phenomenon to occur at a larger rate.

Then it is a guild, not a union.

exponential growth at slowing rate is still exponential growth. Have you ever taken a math class higher than algebra before? jesus christ

Should never have crossed the border, spics

Duh. How do you break strikes? By importing a bunch of other workers who are desperate and hungry enough to do the same job for less pay. The problem isn't the hungry workers. It's the bosses who want to undermine the strike.

Plenty of people get into American trade unions without knowing someone. Nepotism exists but it's really not as bad as OP is making it out to be.

Depends where you live. Near city centres it's hard as fuck (and the pay is better too)

Also non-whites rarely get in

The counter argument is that's what the elites want - if they can't export our jobs to people who pay 10 cents an hour, then they'll import people who have no choice but to work at a wage no sane man would.

It's been rigged for decades, boyo.

Why are you acting like you give a shit about Africa?

Have you? What does a progressively decreasing rate of growth look like on a graph?

What is happening is that global industrialization is creating a change in family structures. As societies move out of their agrarian mode of production into an industrial one, the economic imperative to have multiple offspring is decreasing. Large families produce wealth in an agrarian system, but they are a financial burden in an industrial system. When societies move towards post-industrialization that burden becomes greater which further stunts the birth rate. The U.S., E.U., and the Anglosphere have been de-industrializing while much of the agrarian world has been opening factories. As that continues to happen the birth rate will continue to fall.

How did you get that impression lmao?

As long as cucks like you dont enter its all good

You can't be this dense.

But I did get in. Why do you think pajeets work at gas stations and Mexicans do handyman work for shit pay? It isn't because they don't want to be in a union, but they just don't get membership

Wtf i hate unions now

I hope they decapitate you cartel style

let's just ignore almost everything engineered nowadays

The unions I've worked with have plenty of black and Puerto Rican guys in them.

...

Because that's what a propper leftist does. He knows that the problems in other parts of the world are more closer to affect your precious little bubble.

This is why retarded right wingers were mute when their governments were handing out money to create ISIS and only complain when there's refugees everywhere.
They can't see the bigger picture, it's always short answers and puting bandages to solve massive issues.

I'm familiar with that argument except that was 1965, look at the graph–the divergence started occurring only in the early 70s. Surely other geopolitical/economic events can be said to affect the compensation of employees vs. their productivity better.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130404072923.htm

The World 57,308,738 Sq. Miles (148,429,000 Sq. Km) 100%
Asia (including the Middle East) 17,212,000 Sq. Miles (44,579,000 Sq. Km) 30.0%
Africa 11,608,000 Sq. Miles (30,065,000 Sq. Km) 20.3%
North America 9,365,000 Sq. Miles (24,256,000 Sq. Km) 16.3%
South America 6,880,000 Sq. Miles (17,819,000 Sq. Km) 12.0%
Antarctica 5,100,000 Sq. Miles (13,209,000 Sq. Km) 8.9%
Europe 3,837,000 Sq. Miles (9,938,000 Sq. Km) 6.7%
Australia (plus Oceania) 2,968,000 Sq. Miles (7,687,000 Sq. Km) 5.2%

My dad hates rich people but he doesn't see the point in unions. Think they're useless

All we need to do is invade Israel and use their scientists to make the world water-efficient.

Are you in a Right-to-Work state?

You dumb cunt, the surpluses you're talking about are produced almost entirely by destructive, utterly unsustainable industrial-scale agriculture thanks to - you guessed it - capitalism. You can't bitch about capitalism making food distribution inefficient while implicitly justifying the production side

JOIN THE UNION YOU FUCKING RETARDED IDIOT, THEY FIGHT FOR BETTER WAGES, STOP HAVING THIS MIDDLE SCHOOL MENTALITY OF "IF I DONT HAVE IT NOONE CAN"

Nigger what? Litterally everything has got software in it nowadays. Theres plenty of mechanics that dont make important shit like trains, such as playsets or benches, just like theres software thats not critical like games or webshops.

Oh an most engineering is done using software made by engineers, which has to be correct in order to not kill people too.

Gonna need some sources on that, greenie-fag.
Of course I can.

...

Most of workers in scandinavia are in unions so they are not so boogeyman like in america.

One counterargument would be that whatever the case may be in America, the argument doesn't apply to the rest of the western world, and if that's the case then there are clearly other causal factors other than immigration.

And they would be wrong. The floodgates for mass immigration from the south didn't really blow up until the North American Free Trade Agreement allowed cheap subsidized American crops to flood their markets and kill their local farming sectors.

American unions today are not what they used to be. They're basically old boys' clubs that use dues to line the pockets of the people running them. In other words, capitalism has corrupted unions and incorporated them into its structure.

Well when you make it illegal for a union leader to be a socialist or communist that's what kinda happens

Yep.

...

Is there a bigger class traitor than the AFL-CIO?

This. Birthrate over time is much more important than birthrate right now. Everything is constantly changing. How it's changing is what you should look at.

D I A L E C T I C S

Great, another African success story. Must be the fault of European colonialism I suppose…

Great, at this rate, africa will only be at replacement by 2100, when their population is 4 fucking billion.

Africa spent the majority of the 20th century at war, now that they aren't their population is growing but will stop as they industrialize. Look at South America. Brazil and Chile are below replacement level while most others are slightly above it.
Nigeria dropped by 1 child per woman in 10 years.


The population of Europe doubled over the last 100 years. Europe is 7% of the world's landmass and has 750 million people.
Africa has 20% of the world's landmass and 1.1 billion.
It's safe to say that it can at least double, nearly triple and still keep a reasonable population density.
But it won't happen since urbanization trends are pretty fucking fast. See South America and how it reached western levels in 20 years.

Africa is the last place that needs surplus labour, considering how corrupt all their countries are.

Yeah there's a thing called the Sahara desert that makes half the continent unusable.

And implying that population density is the only thing that matters is pretty fucking naive.

Also the Sahara is expanding

why do Holla Forumsyps get so agitated over Africa's population increasing? Surely the Aryan ubermenschen aren't worried about anything?

Supremacist ideology is founded on the contradiction that muh identity is the master identity but somehow one or more inferiror identities manages to subjugate them.

...

Pretty sure white western countries already have that covered.

no, i'm talking about reality, not revisionist historical accounts from the 18th century about "muh evil witey"

Green house emissions are mostly to blame on the 1st world.
What the fuck do you mean about "destruction of the world"?

africans barely eat meat for fucks sake.

You're seriously just being exploited OP.

Seriously, Union jobs I've worked on, i've got double the wage than non-union jobs, but didn't make those non-union jobs any less hard, if anything, I worked harder and longer hours for less pay on non-union jobs.

Learn to collective bargain, you are being paid far less than your worth.

If you should be pissed at anyone, be pissed at wall street porkies who make millions from their beds.

Top soil erosion and deforestation is a more serious and immediate threat than global warming. We haven't even started talking about water depletion yet either.


kek, pretty sure slash and burn, harvest once and move agriculture is far worse for the environment than eating meat lmao

I would also wager those Scandinavian unions aren't run by criminals.
Or set up to protect workers who are by any measure, awful.
The UAW regularly stands up for workers who've been filmed drunk/getting high on the job, workers who don't actually work, etc.
It makes unions look like a joke to prospective members, outsiders, and employers.

Unions in America have a very bad reputation for good reason, and porky propaganda is a small part of it.

I wish we did unions like they have in Europe, I'd join IG Metall in a heartbeat if I could.

You talked about "destruction of the world", not "destruction of african biodiversity and landscape"

The Teamsters,the UAW, and the USW are not particularly well thought of.
Actually, I would consider most if not all American unions to be a crock, if not an outright criminal scam.

They are all trash but at least they don't fund non-profit orgs that infiltrate foreign labor movements to ensure they are going to play ball with western capital interests.

that is fucking amazing. they're literally preventing themselves from getting bigger and more powerful.

Well they can only train so many apprentices at a time. If they could organize every worker and collect their dues they would but all new members have to go through the apprentice program for insurance and quality of work purposes. There's also the issue of available work. Some of the larger unions like the carpenters have hundreds of guys sitting at a time.

What's implicit about it? We explicitly want for agriculture to be collectivized.


My god, you really can't do math.

Oh bullshit. Training takes a predictable amount of time, given regular training from a member. The numbers vary depending on the industry, but any idiot can do the math to figure out how many apprentices they can afford to train at a time. The more apprentices they train now the fewer they have to train later, because those apprentices will become regular workers and thus able to train new apprentices. If you know what you're doing you can set it up just like a pyramid scheme except instead of taking people's money you're giving them training. Eventually you will run out of people to train.

Don't buy that bullshit.

This is why specialization and specialized unions are a bad idea. It's easily worth it to union members to get training in multiple useful skills so they can go where the social needs are at the time. There's a reason the manifesto ends "Workers of the world, unite!" instead of "Workers of your respective industries, unite!"

Just to clarify individual members don't train apprentices. Trade unions generally have schools with some teachers for each trade. Apprentices will go to school once a week or a week out of the month depending on the union. The rest of the time an apprentice will be on a job site doing grunt work and organically learning the trade. Once they've been working and going to class for 3-4 years they become a journeyman. I'm sure they can run it more efficiently but I don't see how they can take in every applicant with the way it's currently organized.

I dunno fam. From my experience there's more to learning a trade than simply knowing how to perform certain tasks. The skills and knowledge that a dockbuilder should have is completely different from those that an iron worker or electrician needs.

Bro, American unions are basically businesses. Of course they don't want to have to pay people they don't need

That's not what apprenticeship is.

That's what it is here.

Not for long. The current trend is that jobs are becoming simpler and more compartmentalized. The trade unions are in a death spiral.

Jesus.

That's not a union, it's a fucking profession.

Yeah. It's a trade union. It's meant to be a profession. These aren't radical unions they're business unions.

I don't see why it's a problem. It's not like you don't learn things from the more competent people on whatever job site your on. The teachers at the schools are all people that have been in the trade for years.

You clearly don't know shit about current American unions

see
The apprentice system (an actual apprentice system) is more efficient because as the union grows the more the training can be distributed.


The point is that this is a shit system.

How does an actual apprentice program work?

I fucking hate this country.

I bet if I join the unions I'll get to do a lot of coke, and sit around in the van while a bunch of spics do all the real physical labor.

Dude what

American unions sound fucking weird
Here everyone gets the same pay and conditions regardless of membership, so they push really hard to get people to sign up because that's how they collect membership fees so they can keep fighting for better pay and conditions.

Look basically American unions are like businesses who work for the government. If you are lucky enough to join one you get paid a lot more than any private company, though most are not easy to join.

They are not leftist either, no one joins to fight capitalism or whatever. They join to get money.

That's why I loled when someone told op to join the iww and he said that iww isn't a real union. Americans think that's what unions are. And of course he wouldn't join the iww because the iww doesn't garuntee you a job with good pay

Taft-Hartley Act

I don't know where you live, but in most non-shit countries, unions negotiate wages for all the workers, not just those in the union. In fact, they're often required to represent all workers, including the non-union ones. That's why most countries also require non-union workers to still pay union dues: because they're getting the benefit of the union's representation and bargaining, even if they're not a member.

That's not how it works in the US. Read the fucking thread.

See>>1166622

They don't all work for the government. Spot on regardless.

Unions, such as they are in the US, shouldn't even really exist. The NLRA was just a way of heavily regulating and limiting workers' bargaining power, disguised as a concession to the labor movement.
Petitioning workers to vote on whether or not to form a union should not be required. Forming a union should not be required in order to go on strike. A "cool-off period" should not be required prior to going on strike. Employers should be required by law to "recognize" their workers and respond to their negotiations. American unions are fucked. Even the good ones are operating within a gimped system.
"Unions" should just be synonymous with "the body of employees," and there should be no formal legal procedure required in order to constitute one.

Should read "recognize their union," by which I just mean what I reiterated in the last line: that "unions" should exist and be empowered automatically, just by virtue of having employees.

READ THIS BEFORE POSTING ITT

"The Taft–Hartley Act prohibited jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. It also required union officers to sign non-communist affidavits with the government. Union shops were heavily restricted, and states were allowed to pass right-to-work laws that outlawed closed union shops. Furthermore, the executive branch of the federal government could obtain legal strikebreaking injunctions if an impending or current strike imperiled the national health or safety."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Management_Relations_Act_of_1947

?

Are there any real American unions

Aspiring professionals become apprentices by shadowing actual professionals and learning the trade by doing. Someone who trains people as their job is not taking on apprentices. They're taking on students.

No. "Real unions" can't exist by law. See

You get on the job training as well as going to school. Most of the time the apprentice is in the field. You can't teach shit like welding on a job site.

Enjoy SCIENCE!ing your way out of fucking superweeds, soil erosion, water depletion and a myriad other problems you stupid tankie cunt

This reminds me. I've heard it suggested that the political reason unions could become cucked on the immigration issue in the '90s, is because unionism had been so extensively purged from the private sphere.

In that same period, unionization actually grew somewhat in the public sector, which has a number of key differences vis a vis immigration (and even offshoring!):

OK. This doesn't change what I was saying. The people whose job is training are not taking apprentices. I'm not in the trade obviously but the way you describe the system, the rate that new members join is being bottlenecked by having a limited number of designated trainers. Hell, if a combination of school training and jobsite training is necessary you could still have a system where the number of trainers adjusts to bring in more people.

That explains a whole lot. Honestly, public sector unions look to be more and more shit compared to private sector unions by the day. (Still prefer them being around over Rick Snyder austerity.)


Now, I actually like the idea of specialized unions, but there should be one union per trade/industry representing all the workers from different workplaces. I also believe that training workers is very important. In fact, this should be combined with the union demanding more shares/ownership over companies and funding cooperatives to slowly have workers become both more skilled and have more control over each industry or trade. These specialized unions also need confederate to coordinate the cause instead of competing with one another.

The Taft-Hartley Act is also complete cancer, immigration is cancer, public sector unions suck, and private-sector unions are only decent so far.

Are you high or are you always this retarded?

Fuck off retard

Software dev here. I work with some of the biggest classcucks I've ever met. We need a union. Our pay is good depending on the sector, but you're expected to work overtime for no extra money until things are fixed.

Also I worked specifically on software that medics use to track medical patient's status during transports and while it doesn't directly save lives, it's making things a lot simpler for doctors on both ends of the transports.

Sure "most software devs" aren't doing this, but most mechanics aren't either. I'm sure "train software" developers have lives in their hand. I'm sleepy, but I'm trying to say not to compare a specific job to an entire field, it's a non-sequitur.

Have you ever tried to get a job at a union shop? If ANY job pays significantly better it going to be hard to get. Yeah joining the WIW is easy because they barely control any workplaces.

How the fuck are things like BLM or the Civil Rights Movement "Black Capitalism"

I don't think that post is implying that BLM or the civil rights movement were "black capitalism." However, there was a pretty influential movement, especially in the 1960s, to "buy black," i.e., to support black businesses–which you could call black capitalism.

Black Lives Matter launches interactive map to promote black-owned businesses
Black Lives Matter and ad agency J. Walter Thompson New York are helping shoppers support black-owned businesses with BackingBlackBusiness.com.
independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/black-lives-matter-backing-black-business-a7487811.html

Well that was easy.

Fair enough, doesn't negate their anti cop platform which is anti capitalist just not explicitly so

When your state becomes a "right to work" state you and those union guys can all make $0.00 together when all the jobs shortly there after get shipped over seas.

How something is supposed to be does not usually reflect reality.
Almost everyone in the oilsands unions is a name hire, it's blatantly against the rules but the corruption runs deep and everyone is scratching eachother's backs.

wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/11/pers-o11.html
Combine this with the Soros leak and you will see the light and the flashmobbing/silent partnership with Hillary and you will see the light.

I thought the point of right-to-work was that it allowed burger porkies to underbid chink porkies, bringing jobs back, chink quality of life included?

The point of right to work is to undermine Union membership