Friends, comrades

Friends, comrades.

I know as a socialist that sometimes it is hard to know for sure as to whether something real and legitimate can be done for the struggle against capitalism. We can critique all day until sun goes down but as to real, concrete action I know I struggle with the fact that I might not be able to ever participate in real change unless its attending a demonstration or something like that. But if any of you have ever had a yearning to do something real, I might have a viable idea to present no matter how small it may be.

Just to give some background, as many of you may know reddit's r/socialism has had a problem of Stalinist dictators in the moderator positions. This has spawned many memes and much outrage, as I'm sure that many of you like myself have been banned or had a bad experience there one way or another for just trying to discuss socialism in earnest. Although some of you may write it off as "lol leddit", this is a big problem for socialism. Following the defeat of Bernie Sanders there were a plethora of disaffected Bernie supported running towards or at least getting a feel for socialism after their SocDem messiah let them down. This was supposed to be a huge win for the Left, as real life entities like Socialist Alternative started putting funds and efforts towards radicalizing those disaffected Bernie supporters who were coming to grips with the fact that the Left is the only true calling. It was supposed to be the same thing on Reddit, as a site that has millions of users and even more lurkers I'm sure there were liberals on the fence who more and more searching for any sources on socialism and what it really meant. That is in fact how I started my journey in leftism. I got interested and searched for subreddits to begin learning, and I found r/socialism. And like many others I started posting, and sooner or later I was banned with no reason given. This almost turned me off from socialism entirely, as the Stalinism rampant in r/socialism must be for others. Fortunately though, I was sent a PM to head to Holla Forums and my alienation was remedied. I found a place to discuss socialism and indulge myself in something I came to love. But what of those masses of liberals who might have become comrades, except no one sent them a PM and instead they just went back to liberalism thinking the SJW dictators at r/socialism, r/fullcommunism or r/latestagecapitalism were really representative of what socialism was?

Comrades, this is no longer simply a problem of "leddit". The name of our movement is being hijacked in the name of identity politics and speech curtailing, and what could be a platform to radicalize what is obviously millions of people disaffected by capitalism is being SQUANDERED. Recently the board owner of r/socialism has expressed a desire for change, however he also expresses concerns that he doesn't have support or evidence for what he wants to do. Unfortunately, we have been unable to contact him ourselves and are thus at risk for what could be massive change and an opportunity to further class consciousness to be simply wasted. We are calling on you to help shape and dictate the direction of what could be a massive revolution in not only r/socialism, but revolution for every "leftist" subreddit that is currently ruled by this cabal of "crypto-stalinists" as they call themselves. This includes r/fullcommunism as well as r/latestagecapitalism. All big platforms for socialism to be spread and instead serves as a blight on the face of our movement.

Other urls found in this thread:

discord.gg/EshYc
theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
theintercept.com/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domestic-law-enforcement-propaganda/
theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5j3gsc/ive_been_incredibly_busy_with_christmas_stuff_all/
reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5j3gsc/ive_been_incredibly_busy_with_christmas_stuff_all/dbdi784/
reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5ixnsg/so_yeah_rsocialism_is_censoring_discussion/dbewqdc/?context=3
bunkermag.org/social-justice-social-democracy-reactionary-bonnie-clyde/
twitter.com/AnonBabble

So, let me get to the point. Some of us have gotten together and decided that it is time that democratically elected moderators are at least a starting point for conversation as to the change that r/socialism needs. Details can be hammered out later, but this is the basic tenant of the transition that needs to happen. The current policy of "I'm a moderator, let's make my Stalinist friends moderators too" needs to end. Further suggestions are transparent bans subject to appeal as well as a change in moderator policy on speech.

We are calling on all of you with reddit accounts older than a month to respectfully, and thoughtfully make your cases to /u/cometparty and ask convey the message that change on r/socialism is both desired and a good thing. For the sake of the movement we all know and love, the eventual fight to topple capitalism we beg you to again, please be respectful and leave your personal politics out of it. But we need to convey the message that a revolution is at hand, and it has support from people who are tired of seeing the worker's movement scarred by the face of power hungry moderators who would see our movement weaker to simply bolster their own egos. Socialism suffers every day, the reputation of our movement suffers every day that some liberal can say "look at the commies, banning anyone who they don't like". That isn't us. Please help us save the cause of socialism on reddit by joining with us to make our voices here.

That is all. I am around to answer any further questions.

NOTE: We are aware there are some among you who have already undertaken this through back channels. We have tried to get in contact with you, but received no response. We still invite you to reach out and get on board what is hopefully a transitory committee of concerned socialists who want to see positive change come from this rupture that is already occurring as we can see in r/anarchism.

If anyone would like to discuss further, I have created a discord channel here:

discord.gg/EshYc

Hahahahaha destroy capitalism. You can't do that, I am invincible! I will not die! I will only return ever more powerful! You are nothing to me! You will be crushed under the strength of my middle toe! You will only breath for mere seconds in my eyes!

Is talking to cometparty really going to achieve anything though? I mean they already know our stance on it.

We have this post as well as other indications from people who have talked to the board owner about their desire to change the moderation team.

We are not sure, is the biggest truth I can give you. Its just a shot in the dark really based on events as they have unfolded in the recent months. As soon as there is any new information I'll let you know, but this might be the best chance we have.

Okay then, I guess it's worth a try.

Hello, I've been banned from most of the leftist subs for a while, so I don't have a huge post history, but I'm interested in participating in moderation of r/socialism alongside others from Holla Forums. I understand the communities have had their differences but we are committed to leftism of course and more specifically to democratic, user-focused moderation rather than a cult of personality. We have had no real issues with moderation on Holla Forums where moderators are anonymous and we hope to carry that ethos of opposition to hierarchy over. r/socialism is one of the primary public faces of leftism on the internet and it's a crying shame to see what has happened to it. All that we want is a chance to implement a much more free forum of discussion and community. Please get back to me if this is something you're interested in. Thanks for reading!

This is what I sent if anyone needs any ideas. I probably just came off as a dumbass but oh well. I mentioned leftypol in my comment history so no point hiding it anyway.

First comrade through the breach.

Totally agree man. Completely, with everything you said.

I wasn't really into /r/socialism, was more into pro-Bernie subs though I always considered myself a socialist first and foremost.

But yea, I think their authoritarian approach as of the past couple of weeks (at least) is going to tremendously backfire. We are in an interesting time because Trump is going to invariably disaffect his supporters, his base. He will betray them. We can offer an alternative.

But we will chase them away with authortarian control like incredibly strict PC moderation and the like. What do you want us to do, message the board owner and complain? I will, I've been warned for "ableism" on that board (under total bullshit circumstances).

...

It's like they TRIED to get the worst team possible to moderate such a large board.

Didn't mean to quote.

I dunno man. I don't want to get all conspiracy theory here, but it's almost like sjw syndrome is some kind of plot to undermine the ideas behind socialism. when people look into it, all they see is SJWs, and hear the right-wing cries of "cultural marxism". especially since i've been reading about all the government tampering in other socialist movements around the world.

Its not a conspiracy position at all. Its been demonstrated, and I think the conspiracy theorist accusations are examples of Hegemonistic conditioning. Google "Operation Northwoods" and start from the moral foundation demonstrated in things like that. If they can make blatant attempts to break up the BPP then who knows anymore. All I know is reddit is a big platform, and better for them if they can keep it from realizing its potential to unite and influence public opinion.

I'm not the usually guy who posts this

The OSS field manual on sabotage has this to say about breaking up group cohesion: nitpick. "Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions." Sound familiar? Policing the use of words like "stupid" or "fool" is the most transparent sabotage tactic imaginable. GCHQ also advises agents to "exploit prior beliefs". In this context, it means presenting your counter-productive policies in the language of the group you are infiltrating. Make it appear as if your disruption is consistent with group goals. This is why the moderation team legitimizes its disruptive policies by accusing all who oppose them of being "reactionary".
You really think intelligence agencies didn't realize the organizing potential of the internet after Occupy Wall Street and the Arab Spring? You think they didn't notice the popularity of 4chan and reddit? If the objective result of a policy is consistently to alienate people, ask yourself what the person advocating that policy really represents. If a withdrawn cult-like atmosphere emerges in a political group, find the person who is most fanatical in advocating that atmosphere. It is likely they will also be in a leadership position. I am willing to bet that 9/10 they will be an agent. Never judge a policy by the language used to advocate it or by the symbols the advocates drape themselves in: judge it only by its results.
Is the moderation policy conducive to building a broad movement of working people? No, it does the opposite. Is the policy consistent with the aim of educating the average person about socialism? No, it alienates them. I don't doubt that a minority of sick minds are acting independently, but I believe that the initial infection emerged by design. Those responsible for impeding the progress of socialism by sabotaging this important platform of communication must be held accountable. Even a low-intensity campaign of harassment would be sufficient to neutralize the psychologically frail dupes on the moderation team. The intelligence agents would have to be exposed.
I think at this point we have to accept that it is more likely they are intelligence assets. How likely is it that the moderation team has failed to notice the words "stupid" or "insane" when reading leftist literature? These words are so commonly used that they aren't even noteworthy. Just to illustrate the point, the word "stupid" appears several times in Marx's Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts. Can we really believe a literate person to be a leftist if they cannot or have not read leftist literature? Is it not more likely that they are something else? This may sound like a radical claim, but just consider all the proven cases of online manipulation:
theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
theintercept.com/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domestic-law-enforcement-propaganda/
theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
We know from COINTELPRO that they've infiltrated and disrupted political groups in the past. We know they were deeply concerned by Occupy Wall Street and the Arab Spring and what it taught them about online coordination. We know they have a massive presence online. We also know that /r/socialism is useless for coordination or outreach owing to its disruptive moderation. We also know that the people moderating /r/socialism cannot have read much left-wing literature. Doesn't this paint a very clear picture?

This isn't a healthy paranoia and you need to talk to someone about it. Even if your idea is rational.

rude.

So speak out proudly about why you don't believe hurt feelers are a reason to shut people out.
The listener and the speaker are both damaged by censorship.
The listener because they don't test their own ideas, whether they are similar to the speaker or not, whether they are also wrong or not.
The speaker never learns if their ideas are fully wrong, partially wrong, or misguided.

The listener could go on believing something equally as wrong without discussion.
The speaker could forever believe they are right because no one gets the chance to tell them how they are wrong.

Brigade this
reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5j3gsc/ive_been_incredibly_busy_with_christmas_stuff_all/

...

That's literally exactly what it is. You don't even need to argue that it's a conspiracy. The ideologies of the ruling class evolve organically from their material circumstances, become remarkably virulent, and attain a definite historical "purpose" even absent conscious intention.

That is, they are through and through devices of class rule, whether or not Porky realizes them as such. The classical examples of anti-immigration and racist sentiments - which divert attention from the causes of capitalism's contradictions onto tactical questions about their execution - strikingly parallel modern SJWism in what aspects they prey upon as well as effect. The post-ideological and post-historical worldviews so prevalent in government and academia today, and the postmodern condition of "profound incredulity towards all meta-narratives," are clear and blunt denials of historical dialectics not unlike the nationalism of the 19th and 20th centuries, the "transcendent ideals" of a culture or the "pragmatism" found in the modern far-right. And of course, the interventionist cry of "Human Rights!" finds its perverse echoes throughout history.

My father was very active in the petty-bourgeois "radical" student movements of the Vietnam era. He, honest to god, attributes the Trump victory to "people being really, really stupid" and nothing beyond. He lacks any sense of history because it has been systematically trained out of him - not necessarily by Porky's informed confederates, but by ideology.

Dialectically speaking these "ruling ideologies" and the sway they hold are not merely profound influences on the world as it is today, but themselves the results of various pressures and evolutionary processes. An "ecosystem of ideas," if you will, rather than a "free market." Being led to believe the American Revolution was about, and fueled by, abstract freedom and the Rights of Man has never been terribly difficult, and so on. Modern universities are an excellent example of this principle in action. They almost all laud "diversity," and their ability to program their students to value it, quite openly. Here the appeal is not merely to one's morality (which, as they will be the first to tell you, is ""socially constructed and historically contingent,"" though by that they mean something altogether different and rather suspect) but implicitly to subconscious character, self-definition and identity. The veneer of ruling class thought is attractive for all the obvious reasons. Baldly, that one might associate himself with wealth and prestige by mimicry.

And the intensity is the result of both broader access to postsecondary education and its much-diminished use towards (or guarantee of) achieving a coveted position in the higher echelons of the petit-bourgeoisie, financial security, or even consistent, relevant, tolerable employment. Its material-competitive aspects are significantly eroded, and so it must rely ever more heavily and viciously on ideology. "A liberal education is designed above all to develop you personally and as a human being," they say. And at least in this, their honesty is commendable. But of what sort is this development?


Ofc this too.
There's no reason to assume there's NO conspiracy, but while it certainly seems plausible (especially given that capitalism has countless times plunged the world into war outright,) all I've seen is circumstantial evidence and I'd caution against making unproven allegations a major focus of ours. That's a clear distinction we have over our "kabbalistic spirit-cooking pizza rape gang"-fearing neighbors.

Good to see you again, Cavalrybro. It's been a while, or I've just missed you on here a lot. Do you have a twitter or something? I'd like to follow you/get in touch, maybe we can collaborate on some theoretical projects.
I'm game to retake that slice of leddit but don't have an account yet.

Either hurry up or don't bother.

If we can't beat them here [on a social media site], there's no way we'd ever beat them in a real battle. The Left is so weak at this point we need to take any victory we can get.

Zizek had a bit about how in the USSR they would kill anyone who said it was an oppressive system, but anybody who said "my God, you can't say that, they'll kill you!" would be killed even faster.

I don't have a twitter, unfortunately. But I'm trying to either get a podcast or video channel set up, can't decide which. But I'm glad to hear someone on here likes what I put down. I'm just a communist trying to help. I'm on the discord listed above if you want to get in touch.

Unfortunately for everyone else, I have bad news. Cometparty (the reddit BO) recently went into r/anarchism and asked for some opinions on what he should do to help the board. I took the chance to post the petition me and a few others have been working on, and also some commentary to help win anyone reading it over. The post is listed below:

reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5j3gsc/ive_been_incredibly_busy_with_christmas_stuff_all/dbdi784/

I was later notified that my post was hidden. Not deleted, I wasn't shadowbanned, but it was hidden by moderators. A user by the name of monkeyfetus notified me through PM, and also was kind enough to speak out for me.

reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5j3gsc/ive_been_incredibly_busy_with_christmas_stuff_all/dbdi784/

reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/5ixnsg/so_yeah_rsocialism_is_censoring_discussion/dbewqdc/?context=3

After all the work I put in, not to mention the collaboration efforts of others I feel defeated. I feel just as deflated as I was when I was asked to leave Socialist Alternative (I was so stoked to find a socialist group when I was just getting into socialism) because I didn't outright want to say I was a feminist. At this point, I don't think we can win here. First off, you have complete tyrants in control of the leftist subreddits (r/socialism, r/anarchism, r/latestagecapitalism) as well as a BO who doesn't seem to want to upset the balance due to…fear? Comrades, I feel genuine sadness and concern over the fact that we won't be able to reach potential thousands of people because some fucking asshat behind a keyboard feels like he or she needs to ban people for absolutely ridiculous things at the behest of whatever mood they're in that day. Every chance I can, I use my reddit account to give a leftist perspective on things when there aren't any others. Good god, if we had a vibrant reddit community we could reach thousands of normies who are on the fence. We could've reaped thousands from Bernie's defeat. We could've gathered thousands more from Trump's victory. Instead they want to spend their time on fucking ABLEISM? Socialism is doing SO WELL that we have the leisure to focus on policing the tiny things within people's posts? I am against making disabled comrades feel alienated as much as the next person, but you could spend a thousand years policing speech without addressing the core reason of why speech is the way it is.

Fuck me. I'm exasperated. You guys can tell me "its leddit, don't waste your time". But comrades, this isn't a waste of time. All we need is to oust those moderators and socialism would be better off because of it. This is a matter of bringing a message we care about to other people, who presumably we care about as they are apart of our species being Marx emphasized. I want to reach them, I need to reach them. We need to reach them. But goddamn if I'm not sick and tired of this effort going to waste because of egomaniacs.

/rant

So, I'm at the end of my wits. If anyone wants to suggest anything, feel free. I'm still on the discord. But holy shit if this doesn't take a bite out of my hope that idpol and speech policing, feelings based policies won't take down socialism in the long run.

We may have to make do with understanding, patiently explaining, and undermining the philosophical foundations for such conduct. WSWS does this expertly, but if what you're saying is any indication, linking there is likely to be a bannable offense. So there's something to be said for subtlety.

Treating parts of language and speech as "unmoved movers" that exert influences on a society based on what they essentially "are" - rather than as a matrix through which thought is imperfectly communicated and necessarily distorted in various ways we can nonetheless predict based on factors we can observe - is not only idealist, it's quite frankly creationist tier. Extending this analogy, their power here is much the same sort as within classical organized religion: while beholden to circumstantial elements, it ultimately relies on a kernel of irrationality, on an outwardly "reasonable" but totally inconsistent internal logic. You saw it with Stalin and his goons, and a sardonic caricature in Orwell's 1984. If one can "prove any statement true" simply by choosing appropriate axioms, the true artistry is in burying these axioms safely out of sight where they may never be sized up for themselves or called into question. Or, perhaps, in burying absolutely every alternative. This is what we must contest.

I'm the guy who did bunkermag.org/social-justice-social-democracy-reactionary-bonnie-clyde/ if that's helpful. I got a little leery when I was edited for tone ("Panders" to "Sanders" in 5th last P) but I'd like to make some real contributions elsewhere and connect with people that can give me advice and help me along.

"Trotskyist" has come to be an essentially meaningless word in popular practice, as perhaps the crown jewel of Stalin's legacy. Take the Freedom Socialist Party for example:
The fetishization of amorphous "political consciousness" and "mass movement," absent sound revolutionary direction and born of pure undisciplined experience, as some scarce, definite resource to be mined from "the right sort" and merely followed into the promised land stands starkly at odds with Trotsky's line itself, not least of which I've already cited from the Transitional Program
Bafflingly, their platform also includes

I feel your pain. I'd really just like a reading/discussion group or community nearby that isn't batshit insane or full of larping tanks. Or some internet colleagues I can make some kind of a difference with. Haven't had many political opportunities. Perhaps we can help each other

could electing mods on r/socialism work if u/cometparty overthrows all the mods? one of the problem with online moderation is that people always seem to fall to the power handed to them and perhaps a rotation of mods would be best for the sub,and could go a long way to plead our case of democratic control of society.

Then again I've never moderated online,let alone a sub as large and potentially controversial as r/socialism

I mean, I'm skeptical of the idea that a bourgeois-held platform can faithfully express our position, over any long term at least. It's almost designed to do the very opposite.
Tactics are important but we also have to play the long game. Don't get too bummed out or disoriented by these setbacks
There are ways we can spread class consciousness and stem the mods' subversion without necessarily wresting control from them. The diligent dming you mention, for instance.