How do we solve the religion problem?

this is what anarkiddies irl i've talked to believe too

and why you belong in the gulag along with the mudslimes and the christians

Literally babby-tier religious understanding

How does this explain the multiple revolutionary movements that have had a religious underpinning? Or the fact the religion occurs in tribal societies with entirely different forms of hierarchy?

You should probably read even a little bit of religious studies theory before making these broad generalizations

So fascism is alright as long as you call it a religion and give it a divinine legitimation? Fucking great 10/10

AUFERSTANDEN AUS RUINEN

by removing the state and the institute of capital. Without these most christfags and muslims would abandon their faiths in the supernatural for the joy of immanent divinity, that is the joy of living

Also daily reminder that anarchism has produced successful real life models of socialism (which of course had to be crushed by statists) while state socialism has only proven itself to be a failure time and time again. Repeatedly. Over more than a century.

Vitriolic hatred of religion is actually what's a bourgeois invention, an ideological artifact from the secular bourgeois State's seizure of control from the Church

Present, to the supreme revolutionary council, the pros and cons of genociding those who refuse to acknowledge there is no god in public.

Pros: more resources for everyone, average intelligence goes up, humanity will not be distracted by thoughts of the afterlife, humanity has just taken a huge step towards the future, liberal tears, it attracts many young angsty oppressed youth to the cause

Cons: time making mass graves, guillotine sharpening, some cuties who would make good sex slaves may get executed(though it is extremely reactionary and not Marxists to keep sex slaves)

There is a strong historical precedent for genocide, why should communist deny this tool?
Let's face it communism is the most advanced creation mankind has ever created.
In this world Muslims are killing Muslims because they have a dispute over who of two dead guys was the prophet's successor. In the past Christian killed Christians because of minor doctrinal differences. Man has killed man for simply speaking another language or having the wrong last name.

Why do such minor unimportant reactionary ideas get to use brutal tactics while the communist tie their hands behind their back.

If you are a reactionary communism is you enemy. Communism isn't to be concealed and kept in the dark to supposedly fester and grow. Communism isn't a virus that kills you. Communism is beast that sinks it fangs into your neck, the beast does not care whether you see it or not, it only wants you dead.

If ye comrades be apprehensive about implementing effective techniques remember all the common people who rose up and fought for communism and died horrible deaths, lost family, lost years in order to achieve communism. How frustrated would they be to see their sacrifice was for naught. 60 years after the Greek comrades rose up, Greece is still oppressed. 60 years after Mao declared the Chinese people have stood up, the Chinese people are forgotten and exploited by the rulers. 80 years after the may 15th incident in Japan, Japan still lives under an emperor. 60 years after the Soviets defeated the fascists, there are no Soviets.

You may disagree with the leaders of the movements, but I don't ask you to take into consideration what they did. I ask you to think about the young man who walked away from the family house not knowing whether he would come back alive. Guided by the desire to liberate his fellow proletariat. What was his death for? And why has so little changed since then?

The Catalonians are spinning in their graves due to this post.

they were obviously not anarkiddies

Bourgeois invention to smash the feudal structures, you mean.

Religion should be permitted as long as it is not reactionary. How is that different from allowing all non-reactionary fiction?

religion, like any idealistic ideology, provides a means of escapism and a way for the status quo to be kept.

for society to advance, religion must die and dialectical materialism must take it's place. that's the cornerstone of any leftist ideology

look i posted le ice pick meym

top kek

because of stalin's authoritarian nationalistic model

religion has always been used to keep poor people in their place, while the upper echelons of society were mostly secular. this is entry level marxism, so you're either shitposting or legitimately believe that a goat hoarder in the middle east talked to god and the creator of the universe is a moralist reactionary that cares if women cover their heads or not

I don't know which it is though. prolly just shitposting

Communists historically dealt with it pretty well, just keep on doing the same thing.

Kill yourself retard

Yeah, we should just go back to the times where the rulers of virtually every human society were legitimized by some kind of bogus divinity claim.

You posting le gulag meme so I responded in kind. In reality all trots (and their families) are too dangerous to be killed by anything short of a firing squad.

Yeah man that was totally it. If only your man had been in there instead.

Nice european chauvanism you got there. If you knew anything about non-european/white socialism you would know that religion is far from inherently opposed to socialism. In fact the most prominent anti-colonial/imperialist/capitalist movements in the third world (specifically Latin America and the Middle East) have had support from religious leaders. But yeah keep on promoting an archaic perspective. It's worked so far after all.

Bakunin is rolling in his grave lel

I am not European, I come from a Muslim country, that's why I want that cancer removed from the region.

And now they are all right-wing shitheads doing the bidding of their neoliberal western masters and crushing all leftist movements. I don't understand why you retards crave so much Muslim cock, knowing that they fucking hate communists more than anything.

lmao

Competing imperialist ideologies are not anti-imperialist you dipshit. They just want to replace it with their own form of imperialism.

If I see another person claiming that an ideology founded by an imperialist warlord constitutes in someway anti-imperialism then I'm going to have a fucking brain aneyrism.

BOO THIS MAN

Just wanted to remind everyone that anti-clerical bullshit is a bourgeois/first-world imperialist obsession that shouldn't be part of any revolution except in cases where local religious elements have already aligned against the revolutionaries.

t. never read theory

disagreeing with your incredibly narrow-minded view of religion=/=being religious or supporting religious institutions. marx's (as in the man himself, not his school of thought) thoughts on religion were fucking stupid, as literally anyone who has studied the subject academically will tell you (although interestingly enough, marxist interpretations of religious societies typically aren't bad).

this is empirically untrue and you can't see your own post-Enlightenment ideology clouding your vision. i recommend, if you have the time, that you read michael taussig's "commodity fetishism and the devil in south america." it provides an excellent example of religion being used to criticize and react against authority, specifically a capitalist one.

Better say where they have not.

´>Islamic fascist
How can you reconcile a religion that commands a tax based on accumalted wealth as one of its fundamental principles with communism?

Whats inside the box?

because it's competition

the thought that in any religious society all thats happening is one group of non-believers is tricking a bunch of idiot followers into doing their bidding is incredibly revisionist. all youre doing is assuming your western capitalist view of reality is the same one everyone else in the world has, which is obviously retarded.

it's a meme you dip

ye, lets fight capitalist with reactionary idealism

you're obviously religious, hence not a materialist, hence your opinions is next to trash to me. no point with arguing further

Don't know. I do know that mosques and churches should be taxed.
Religion is a problem, especially organized religion. However people should be allowed to believe whatever the fuck they want.

you need to get the fuck outa here

reeducation

gulag for the ones that dont want to be educated

We need to genetically modify the population to be more intelligent.

Yep communists want total fnantical devotation to their cause. Bit tricky if you're religious.

All this post proves is that anti-religious posters are also liberals.

If state communism is so good why do you have to force people to think that it is? This is why no one likes you people.

lol no im not. you just have a shit tier view of how and why people are religious in the first place. in fact, im willing to wager that your interpretation of religious societies is less materialist than mine.

what liberals are surprisingly capable of noticing, is that many leftists just want a new master

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No sorry not a lib

You are, you're just too dumb to realise it.

I think you mean more euphoric.

if you really think that religion is a result of being dumb, you're severely uneducated.

i'd love for you to work through all of the details of rabbinic theory and then tell me the people who came up with a system that complex and comprehensive are in any way dumb

...

Your black and white thinking is what's dumb here

Please explain this shit. Because it really does just look like ideology to me.

It's going to happen, what you want on your gravestone?

it is. marx's fedora-tier opinions on it were completely rooted in bourgeois propaganda not even he was aware of

there is no such thing

because they are indoctrinated into it, and it's an essential part of their reactionary national identities. capitalists perpetuate this in most heavily religious nations because religion goes hand in hand with nationalism and accepting the status quo. In abrahamic religions, there is the notion of "god's plan" which makes adherents believe that all their woes are just their faith being tested.

but ye, i'm sure that you have a better grasp on religion than karl marx.

the people that came up with it? no. the people who adhere it in 2016? yes.

being religious has been correlated with low Autism Level

that never happened. i suggest you follow your flag's advice m8

Marx was a shitter if we're completely honest about it.
Yeah sure he got some things right he got a hell of lot of things wrong.
You could say the same about Mises or Trump or anyone.
The way this board treats him is religious in itself.

It's funny how religioius 'communists' always prefer to throw Marx under the bus over their spooky ideology.

Honest question, What do we do about ethnoreligions? Islam and Christianity are vague bullshit but Druze/Judaism is different

something something historical materialism

It be nice if no religion but as John Lennon is dead, real world terms, heads up, its gone past capitalists, now becoming christian and muslim clash and at this time it isn't nationalism unless you thinking western is the world.

That seems to be the solution with most social and economic issues within communism, that or outright execution. The people on this board are idealistic pseudo-intellectuals who clamour for wage equality while being largely unaware of the results of its practice. And now you all scheme around your e-table working out how you will do away with religion, because God is a competitor to your state and thinly veiled self-worship. You people are truly despicable.

wtf, of course i do, it's my subject of study. marx's subjects were economics and hegelian philosophy. why would he have a more informed idea of religion than me?

how does this explain people who convert to a religion there weren't part of previously?

this is wrong and misinformed. nationalism, in the way we understand the term today, didn't really exist until the secular upheaval of power from the church. nationalism was the way in which people were able to continue to enjoy the group identity which religion had previously offered. basically, nationalism wasn't really a thing until religion was condemned by the bourgeois public sphere.

that's a way that some religious people interpret that idea, but certainly not all. what do you have to say about the multitude of almost every other non-abrahamic faith completely rejecting these kinds of ideas, while also being a religion?

you don't have to be religious to see that the only spooked one in this debate is marx.

It's funny how atheist "communists" always refuse to critically analyze Marx's arguments against social phenomena which may or may not be directly related to capitalism as if he were some sort of infallible prophet. Seriously his arguments against religion are awful and based mostly on his materialist ideology and the state of religion during his lifetime.

wut

It's still the same, religious people are the most anti-communist useful idiots out there.

dictionary.com/browse/clamour

You speak English right?

...

...

that's like saying warfare didn't really exist in the way we understand it today before there were guns

This is about atheists destroying religion altogether. That is their ultimate plan.
Islam is the hardest nut to crack but they will do it through all manner of subterfuge, and the population will go down from 2.2bn to maybe a tenth of that over the next century.
Making the religion irrelvant as a global ideological and political force.

...

But that's the truth of the world

It's not about critical thinking, they are reactionary scum.

i mean, that would be a totally legitimate thing to say. the only thing the warfare of today and the warfare of the 1700's have in common is that we call them 'warfare.' everything else is completely different. what's your point?

nationalism had a completely different meaning before the french revolution

cool strawman.
religion is still dumb and religious people are retards

humanity is shit and can only understand violence, the masses worship false gods and only enlightened men can direct society to a path that is not self-destructive.

While I am not in favor of genocide, as I think it is the greatest crime one can commit against the name of communism, violence should not be avoided.

What manner of subterfuge are you talking about? How will you reconcile your attempts to impede Islam with your doctrine to accept Arabs and Muslim refugees into communist society, who are known for their overwhelming birthrates compared to other religions, let alone nihilist atheists? The only people who are likely to suffer from insurrection are likely to be communist atheists, not Muslims.

So are people who enjoy reality TV. Should we gulag them as well?

Misunderstood OP then but from replies to OP looked like people thought religion= nationalist. Atheists I met recently, and i dont like them, they just another religion and all what they say is the Word. I dont think people realise that religion is a personal choice and powerful, me I looked into it and said not for me, but met people that hold that stuff close

Maybe you should start by quitting yours. At least the Christians can say that their prophet was a good person, Marx was an evil man on top of advocating an evil ideology of theft and jealousy. Worse than Mohammed frankly, at least he advanced the cause of the Arab people.

The problem with religion are the institutions, the solution ban organized cults and allow private cults.

citation needed

Solution might be anons talking about religion, always hotpockets

You seem like a normal person, not closed minded and dogmatic.

ill answer one last time because you really seem to be itching for a long argument but i have around 13 hours to prepare for an exam so I can't argue on leftypol all night

aren't we modest

either angst over their fear of death, or simply seeking an identity and a sense of community. outside of the us though, in religiously homogeneous nations, people tend to stay within the religious groups they were raised in. If someone cannot even question his unfounded assumptions about the world's origins, I doubt they'll be able to question the societal status quo

no it's not. reactionary nationalists across eurasia tie religion with national identity into a cespool ideology of hate. Take yugoslavia as the extreme example, where religion was literally the only kindle for hatred among yugoslav nations since everyone was part of the same ethnic group and even spoke the same language.

i don't care how the individual thinks of it, i care about the dialectical totality of the situation. As an institution, one of the basic tenets of abrahamic religion is accepting one's fate as a plan of god, and tolerating hardship with the promise of the afterlife as a reward. There is literally a term for accepting the static nature of your class in islam for example, which I can't recall right now.

Yet they all sell the same idealistic pill, but with different wording and concept. Vedic religions claim this reality is not real, so nothing really matters as your ego is a part of the cosmos and your actions are a part of a "cosmic dance". In India religion was used to propagate the caste system since ancient times.

I suggest you read Zizek's critique on eastern religions, he also mentions a nice example of how buddhism was used by the japanese empire's war propaganda machine

porky please go

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you don't have any idea about the thing you're talking about

fixed

Perhaps you're out of touch with your own peers, but there are plenty of Reds who essentially believe this, and in fact with every practice of Communism it was enforced on the masses to idolize the ruler.
You speak as if there has never been a religious genius or visionary before. I find it ironic that many communists seem to believe that they are required in this stage of history to guide the simple-minded people of the world into a new egalitarian era, all the secret societies believe the exact same thing and practice their own mystery religions.

Why not just destroy capitalism, kill any collaborators and then just leave them alone? Religion will shrink substantially in a post-capitalist society.

Not even sure what you're on about and pretty sure you misunderstood what I said…

my point is that form doesn't chance essence

marxism is a religion

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/

No it won't. Capitalism wants to destroy religion too, and implant it's own ideology and forms of worship.

I'll leave this here

Religion is one of the oldest components of human civilization. It's far older than both feudalism and capitalism. Marx dismisses it out of hand via his ideology. That shouldn't be good enough for anyone.

I only know of sufis, and how they have been persecuted by sunnis. The non-reactionary ones are always in the minority and are purged by the majority. Thanks for proving my point.

What I've learned from leftypol is that there are actually people out there that think that a fascist ideology shouldn't be confronted when it just gives itself the coat of a religion. Where does this false respect for primitive spooks come from? Childhood indoctrination? Social conditioning?

There's nothing to solve. Let people worship whatever the fuck they want.

probably. love how the majority of this thread even consider themselves marxists somehow

fucking liberal

that's not how arguments work you mouth breather.

Christianity and Muslim are on a tour de force head on collision, so you are going to have to pick a religion to put your point across about capitalism or communism. I believe the religion clash will go on for 10+ years cos they so incompatible, pick the winning team and then when all settled people prepared to listen to politics.

Also capthca every post, jeeez

Really user?

War and murder is one of the oldest componentes of humans civilization. It's far older than both feudalism and capitalism. Therefore it is somehone good or something.

YOU CAN'T FOOL ME SATAN

But don't you see? Marx is fundamentally wrong when his ideas contradict with my personal spooks!

Fedora faggot.

Its more the governments refuse to listen to people in their countries, the non listening, the refusing to talk about problems is pushing that shit forward at a fast pace

lmao i shouldn't be fucking around on here either but i'm triggered

no like, it's actually my major

but you've already said that for someone to believe in religion at all, they would have to have been indoctrinated form the beginning. how exactly does that work?

right, thats why the normative doctrine of every religion is constantly changing and new interpretations of foundational texts happen across the board literally every day.

but they are only doing this after completely re imagining what their religion is and shaping it to fit their nationalistic context. by marrying it with their nationalism, they have created a new religion fundamentally different from whatever it was before.

but that's literally all there is in regards to understanding religion. normative generalizations don't exist anywhere except in the mind of the person trying to understand the religion from the outside. basically, you are the only person who has your understanding of christianity. no one else, especially not a christian, has the same one. if we're these big shot materialists, don't we have to reject your understanding here?

...

Wait so is Marx never wrong? I don't see your argument here, unless you are assuming that, to a marxist, every single word that Marx wrote should be considered true. Kind of a religious text.

m8 wut

In a communist state scenario, you are compelled to not see individuals for their particular religious upbringings/affiliations and race, but accept them as members of your country equal to every other individual, even those that have been born there and are absolutely loyal to the ideology. My point in that post was, Muslims may emigrate to your hypothetical society, but it is naive to say the least to believe that they will prove to be effective members who will conform to the society's standards. Muslims are known for their high birthrates, the conclusion drawn from this is that although you may believe that communist atheists will somehow through undefined "subterfuge" destroy the Islamic religion, that it is in fact your culture that will be destroyed or replaced. Muslims have religious doctrines that demand that they push for pro-Islamic reforms in whatever country that are in to the best of their ability, politically or violently. And Islam is also a religion of martyrdom and fanaticism, they are more likely to have superior ideological stamina compared to your average godless communist, who is likely to be as nihilistic as your average citizen in a capitalist country and in fact has all the more reason to live a nihilistic life. The communist idealists seem to believe that if they change the mode of production from capitalism to communism, this will almost magically do away with social ills.

They are irrelevant and they get murdered by the reactionaries, why try to distinguish one from other when you can simply be against all forms of religion.

also, zizeks understanding of buddhism isn't bad, but it's also not entirely accurate. most buddhists in asia today don't subscribe to the same belief system he argues against.

but if they exist, then religion is more than what you described it as. also, what you said about sufis doesn't even make sense, ea they've clashed with sunnis but that's not the entirety of their existence. they've always had a strong presence in the islamic landscape

A mere demographic footnote whose significance was been inflated by western academics that have a political axe to grind.

haha ok. where did you get this information?

Religion is inherent to man. You cannot eliminate the religious impulse. You can only redirect it. So basically the trot is right.

Why are there no IDs on this board? This is to the detriment to the board users rather than any outsider.

Muslims or any group that is coming from the outside would conform and blend in, but cos of Merkel the size of muslims coming in, they don't have to blend, they can stay within group. Merkel really fucked up Europe. Don't blame the Britbongs for saying nope.

i agree to an extent, but also the Durkheimian profane/sacred split stuff doesn't really work all the time.

source?

Not an argument

no i didn't, i said they usually are indoctrinated from the beginning. there are other reasons of course, but statistically the majority are indoctrinated from a young age

I don't see how that contradicts what i just said.

not really, since the source material itself is extremely disgusting in nature. the closer someone interprets the source material, the more conservative their ideology is. things like hatred of women, the concept of sin, all that shit is still there.

no it isn't. but since at this point I realize you haven't read hegel, again i conclude that there's no point arguing

are you legitimately retarded user?

It should be rather put as:
Man, from childhood, is given to putting his faith into the family. This faith extends to other things eventually. You may claim that those who do their "fact-checking" do not rely on faith but rather on evidence, however it is still faith they rely to believe that what they are witnessing is the truth or relevant. Faith interweaves with everything, for better or worse.

Yeah you misunderstand my point. Religion is being destroyed by atheists. Not atheist communists because they have no power, and I'm talking about people in power.
But Islam will drastically shrink in followship. People will lose their religion. They will leave it.
That is what the constant conflicts in the middle east are about, and the overwhelming force of aggressive secular atheism in the west. To make being religious unbearable.
It will work.
Many muslims will even agree with me, as their prophet predicted this, and it is clearly evident now. They did it to Christianity in a fairly similar way in the last century.
Secular people make the best consumers, and the most pliable citizens.

Still not an argument

No one is making that argument.

that's a good point actually.

stay still…

ye i wouldn't want to destroy the revolutionary potential of christian republicans and indonesian muslims that stone indecent women to death

Capitalists are. Yours is the same.

I'm aware.
This is however.

I understand now, my mistake. Perhaps you're right.

Faith != religion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

no wonder you're a trotskyist

People in power want Islam cos its a power control religion

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No it isn't.

That's precisely my point, Man puts faith into everything he pursues, not just religion. He even puts faith into ideologies that exclude religion.

you should really read that book user
get your mum to buy you a library card

Still failing to see an argument

nah, I'll read it after I've purged you

No they want atheism because there's no better slave than the one who thinks he's free.

You I like

ye but it's past bedtime and you have school tomorrow

you'll purge me next weekend

i didn't say my opinions mattered more, i just disagree with him. based on what i've read, i believe marx was working off of a poorly worked out understanding of religion. you're allowed to disagree.

religious people question the status quo constantly is what im implying.

there is no 'closer' or more correct religious interpretation. ISIS, for example, is working off of a completely new method of tafsir, unseen in the history of islam. there are also several feminist qu'ran scholars with just as meticulous interpretations, which in no way can be said to be 'less correct' or 'less faithful' readings.

nice argument

Greed is precisely why capitalism doesn't work. By the way genetics basically disproves the whole "blank slate" shit that you probably believe in so you should probably drop it. It's essentially a 19th century pseudo-science at this point.

Are you seriously suggesting that what you perceive as the truth within your limited perspective and perceptual capabilities is somehow based in logical reasoning or evidence? There is a reason Socrates claimed that he was wise because he did not know m8.

I don't.

...

good thing school ends on friday for me, so just in time.

I meant global capitalism, not the status quo of their spooks

yes there is. when the holy book states something as law, you can choose to follow it or interpret it as "muh different times"

you don't understand dialectics mate, at this point i'm just humoring you

yes

there is such thing as a muslim or shcirstian gene

people are born and without any indocrination, they become muslims or jews

this is what happens in reality, this is how sociology functions

I don't. That's why I said it's not about critical thinking, I don't care about evidence of god or lack thereof, I consider this purely on materialist viewpoint.

Pick one. Also it's funny that you are picking out other people for supposedly lacking arguments, yet deny that you are trying to argue this point, or even see the value of argument.

which is why several nation of islam members are outwardly marxist right

this is elementary literary theory man. there is no objective reading of a text, particularly in the case of religious doctrine.

neat

for

I see how religion is used to fuel reactionaries against communism, so I am against it. That's what I meant by materialistic viewpoint, god's existence have no effect on my life.

stop trying to make yourself out to be enlightened in some way, you're a fucking uncultured simpleton

gotta love the leftypol debate tactic of saying "you dont get hegel" and then acting like the argument has been won

Feels pretty good. The 19th century is finally getting put to bed.

their intelligence is just slightly above the average Holla Forumsyp, enough to see through their bullshit, but dumb enough to think they're profound.

Hey. Islamic poster man, if I convert will I get muslim waifu? I`m ready to give up music,alcohol and tobacco in this trade.

You gotta give up porn too or no deal.

see again

For all you know God's existence has the greatest effect on your life, it is just that it is more convenient to you in your personal life and ideology to not think about a god.

What the hell is this cancer?

as long as its not that WHORE in the photo

im about to vomit

What kind of a retarded argument is this? For all you know you might have a scat fetish and that might be the most important aspect of your life, better wade through sewers to find the perfect piece of turd.

Of course I'm going to do the thing that is more convenient to me you mongtard.

are we being raided?

I will just masturbate to collected works of Stalin. Got it.

fuck off

in academia this has been the case for a while. the idea that leftism begins and ends with marx''s original theories is a view held exclusively by 18 year olds playing pretend on the internet

ye because stating that everyone has faith since believing what you see with your eyes is a form of faith is in it's essence a non-materialistic statement

again, that doesn't matter. what matters is the totality of the religious establishment, which in it's majority promotes the status quo. it has done that since the middle ages with the divinity of the monarch, and it does so today with moralism, reactionary attitudes and as a divisory tool

but if you accept religious text as the sacred flawless word of god, commandments like:

>"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

should be followed to the letter. in it's essence, religion is bronze age spooks that are in turn interpreted and tailored into modern age spooks. but in it's core, religion can never be revolutionary since it's a tie with the past.

i've most likely read 4-5 times more theory books than you have, and philosophy isn't even close to my field

if you don't think dialectically, you cannot understand social phenomena from a marxist perspective

t. imwither

crypto-liberals

this is why 4chan is so much better, this is a banter free zone

never said that lmao, just said the average person on this board is barely above a Holla Forumstard.

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no one is saying that people should convert or that there's any way god is real, idiot. you're just using an archaic understanding

I thought you weren't concerned with arguments.
False equivocation, and out of context.

Thank you for confirming my thoughts. Personal convenience is the cornerstone of your lifestyle and ideology.

ye

ye

It's shitty that in Anglo countries that religion was used to destroy the left, but in Latin America the opposite happened. Hell, you even had the Catholic clergy killed by the US-backed Brazilian military government. Keep in mind that religion has just as easily been used to support leftist movements as well.

I am, you just don't have any.

What was even the context? You want people to be religious on the off chance that maybe search of god is the meaning of their life or some other retarded recursive statement?

Sure beats moralfaggotry and spooks.

You can still reason within abstraction. Conception precedes the material. Creator precedes the created. I would go so far as to say that faith is what drives you to believe that you require or deserve material sustenance and comfort.

i don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this. following any of that "to the letter" depends entirely on how one understands the letter. this gets even more complicated when you factor in the ambiguity caused by translations, particularly in regards to the qur'an, which pretty much has to be read in arabic in order to situate it in any kind of legitimate context.

there is not an essence or core to religion. not one person who identifies as religious shares the exact same understanding of their faith with another religious person

That shit is why I will always support US involvement in Latin America. Left wing religious movements promote false consciousness and need to be destroyed.

Shame I don't live in Latin America and see the exact opposite in my region.

this 150%

Daily reminder that Marx was a fucking SATANIST hypocrite.

In the curse and rack of Destiny.
All his worlds are gone beyond recall!
Nothing but revenge is left to me!

On that being, that enthroned Lord,
Make my strength a patchwork of what's weak,
Leave my better self without reward!

Cold, tremendous shall its summit be.
For its bulwark– superstitious dread,
For its Marshall–blackest agony.

Shall turn back, struck deathly pale and dumb;
Clutched by blind and chill Mortality
May his happiness prepare its tomb.

From that massive iron giant.
If he bring my walls and towers down,
Eternity shall raise them up, defiant.

marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1837-pre/verse/verse11.htm

Typical trot brain rot. Always support fascists and imperialists whenever people do something they don't like.

wtf i hate communism now

So I was wrong, you can read apparently, too bad you can't actually comprehend anything.

As opposed to what? Supporting every left wing movement no matter how grotesque and non-dialectical it is? Fuck that.

the exception doesn't disprove the rule

again, this is just idealistic circle-jerking. If you start off by the premise that even your perception of reality is not real, you're essentially spewing idealism.

you bundle knowledge with faith, because the basis of your thesis is idealistic in nature

there is, the essence of religion is that it's a spook. while how spooked you are might vary between individuals, in reality it will always serve to keep people grounded in idealism

nothing good comes out of religion

nice current year fallacy lad but do you have an argument? I'm all ears

what an absolute edgelord

Yeah because you have to support imperialists if you don't like aspects of another leftist movement. This is why all trots need to be shot.

Yeah fuck the common man your ideological purity is more important

Didn't you get the memo? According to this thread, emancipatory movements don't have to be either dialectical or materialistic in nature. Abrahamic religions can be used as a revolutionary tools, marx was obviously wrong cause i have a major in religious study, also wtf who reads hegel haha :DDD

ye fuck theory, let's use populism to appeal to the masses

i'm sure that's how capitalism will fall

Shit like this happened all over Latin America but only a deluded non-latino would think that they ammounted to anything. Guess what, shit like that was carried by such a small percentage of the clergy that it's obviously the work of a few left-minded individuals in the church, which doesn't prove anything about religion being reactionary/revolutionary or whatever

Yeah fuck movements that are anti-neoliberal but don't buy into my LGBTQBBQ gender studies theories supporting the status quo is what we should do!

Pretty sure siding with imperialists and fascists won't hasten capitalism's fall but you see trots doing it all the time.

These are some of Marx's earliest works so I fail to see how this would make him a hypocrite

this isn't even ad hominem, it's just blatant shitposting

marxist/10

I'm not that guy, siding with us imperialism is like tankies siding with assad because he's anti-us. but under no circumstances should leftist encourage reactionary conservatism, no matter how it coats itself

if you read any of my posts itt youll see that ive been talking about my argument for a while now

yea man, religion has done NOTHING good for civilization. definitely hasn't been the driving force of nearly every effective Indian anticolonial rebellion, definitely wasn't the ideology underlying the rhetoric of both mlk and malcom x, definitely wasn't instrumental in Tibetan protests.

ive never once said itt that i think anyone should be religious, that im religious, or that i don't completely disagree with the majority of religious cosmologies. what i've been saying is that you and Marx both use an over simplistic understanding of it. its not just some fairy tale that people just accidentally started to actually believe, its much more complex

You simply accept Islam will dominate the world, and carry on with your day.

I've read all your posts in this thread and I still don't see any in-depth analysis of Marx views on religion and why they are "archaic" (lmao) and therefore wrong

Hey I know you're really a liberal cuck who wants their waifus cunt to be communal property but not everyone is like that. Yeah we're actually reactionary, deal with it.
And Das Kapital was mostly trash, empirically proven wrong and fucking boring.

I've presented an argument for you to pick apart, you failed to do so, and claimed that critical thinking is not involved in your purely materialistic worldview, yet this situation is impossible.
The context being that you are a relativist who uses the excuse of possessing a "purely material worldview" as a reason to think about or believe in God, yet at the same time you claim this to not be reasoning. Godhood implies a creator who has set in motion all events, even your worldview, even this conversation.
Are all communists nihilists or what? What does your kind live for other than to exist and then die? Do you not realise how meaningless that is? Or perhaps you do realise how meaningless it is, and envy others who have found meaning or have created their own meaning.

I would type more about this, but I need a nap. Feel free to believe you have won an argument you supposedly did not engage in.

actually reactionary = soshully cuntservatib

you do realize that those same people were the driving force behind the suppression of genuine emancipatory movements during british colonialism in india right?

it was, as it was the rhetoric of the segregationists

you fail to see the totality mate, you quote 3-4 "goods" religion has done and fail to see (or choose to ignore) that religion in 98% of cases is used as a reactionary tool of oppression

made me chuckle user, good job. if you're not gonna be smart at least be funny

Okay goodbye Holla Forums fools.

Are you socdem?

Learn your history, because a large amount of the clergy in Brazil supported leftist movements and reform, the military government actively targeted it. It was not "a small part of the clergy." Also, my point was that religion can be used as a tool by both sides, not that religion is revolutionary in nature.

spooked off the charts

No I'm just a visitor.

Literally idpol in a different flavor.

W E W

Fuck, I never thought of it like that. Good spot.

look, i understand that a degree of essentialization is necessary in order for the hegelian notion of totality to work, hell, it's built into the theory. but also the theory is just that: a theory, in the sense that it is a hermeneutic to understand something, but it cannot actually be the thing itself, a very basic nietzschean idea i know. i get that if you're trying to approach EVERY aspect of reality from a marxist or hegelian lens then your interpretation of religion makes sense to you, (even though i would still completely disagree) but if youre trying to get a better understanding of religion itself, this essentialization just doesn't cut it. and yes, i understand that the atomization of religion im doing here is flawed as well, but generalizing massive swathes of it in this way does nothing for us if we want to better understand it as a phenomenon itself in a sociological/anthropological sense.

Why should my revolution wait for yours?

You'll get free healthcare to cure your mental problems.
You do want to get better don't you?

Why did you chop off your dick? For the love of God, why did you do it? FFS WHY CHOP OFF YOUR DICK AAHHAHAHAWFHAHAOHGEGAGHOAEHGOAUEHGOAGUEHAEOGHAUO STOP IT. STOP IT. IT IS NOT OK TO SELF HARM.

because it applies to every aspect of reality. it's a method of logical deduction, not an interpretation theory

anyways i think we've reached the "agree to disagree" point of the conversation

Now this is bait fam

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

my sides

his statement was prolly a shitpost, but you do realize that religion must be rooted out for a revolution to take place right?

Oh yeah, look how revolutionary all the least religious places are.
Not everywhere is Saudi Arabia buddy.

user didn't call materialism itself idpol, he said that the idea of removing religion holding primacy over achieving revolution was idpol. Unless you mean to say that proselytizing is inherent in materialism, which sounds pretty damn spooky.

Religion is basically non-existent in most capitalist countries nowadays anyways. Being rabidly anti-religion serves no purpose.

Nice spook you got there.

religion is a coping mechanism to deal with the fear of death. so its impossible unless you change the human brain or humans become immortal

i'm not saying atheism is revolutionary in nature, but religion is reactionary in nature

it doesn't hold primacy over achieving revolution, but it is something that must be dealt with in order to achieve a revolution.

that's only true for some middle european countries

This isn't true. The Abrahamic religions are all about a middle ground between progressivism and conservatism.

...

lel no they aren't, they are extremely reactionary

wtf is this shitposting, where do you people come from?

lel yes they are
bible studies

Your first sentence is what Freud says and I agree with that completely.

But the gun can still have the bullets taken out of it, and be put in a drawer.

Considering you have such scorn towards religion and its fatalism, why adopt such a fatalistic approach to it?

unless we figure out a way to live forever or somehow we forget that we will die one day i dont see religion going anywhere

Pray

any more anti-religion posters? They're great

Shit thread with dogmatic trotskyite shitting it up

home.mira.net/~andy/works/atheism.htm

marxmyths.org/cyril-smith/article2.htm

Except Zizek likes the emancipatory core of Christianity and is not an anti-theist

Hold on do you realize that Eliade is a Fascist right?

Not to mention that Zizek was specifically critiquing modern Zen Buddhism.

Here is how
Let's say, we want to remove christianity in a country, how do we do that?

First step, kill priests, kill anyone who opposes your anti-religion policies, burn churches, ban the bible, crucify the nuns after you rape them
Second step, a fee for protection provided by the irreligious ruler to christians. the fee should be heavy. Some christians will just give up and stop worshipping the sand god.
Final step, use all kinds of propaganda techniques to oppress christianity.

He didn't even imply he hated fatalism or said religion is bad because of it tbh. Fatalism should be isolated from religion (unless you want to call what results from it religion)

It could be gotten rid of with radically different childhood education but religious upbringing benefits the community in a sense so it hasn't been done.

Educate young children to believe in the cycle of life rather than heaven etc. Teach them that living in the materialistic world will benefit both you and the ones close to you. Teach them that good deeds should be done for the sake of humanity not for the sake of divine salvation.

Also I have to give a standing ovation to the quality of this thread….really blows my socks off tbh…

I see no problem with religion. I am religious myself, in the sense that I abide by certain precepts and I have some amount of faith in certain things that cannot be empirically tested.

Forcing people to be non-religious is bad, and so is censoring religious information. Let people make up their own mind whether or not they want to believe in something.

As to whether it is necessary to be a materialist to be a Communist, I don't think that it is. I haven't seen arguments for it.

Please don't be so short-sighted.

Just because some institutions don't like who you are, it doesn't mean all the institutions in that category are like that. Furthermore, there will always be people who don't like other people. You cannot remove them all.

I am sometimes disliked because of the colour of my skin (or race, I'm not sure) but I don't want to harm or kill people for it.

Some religions such as Buddhism and Jainism are almost exclusively about coming to terms with the fact that you will die.

Fear is something to be conquered, not embraced. Fear only arises out of clinging to the bodily or mental form that we call "I". There's no need to do that.

...

That wasn't quite his position. It was a bit more complex than that.

Education.

So what? It's not my business as to whether something can be called a "spook" or not. If you suppose that it's not good to believe in spooks, your position is either self-defeating (because it's spooky to think there is something good or bad about believing in spooks) or it's rubbish, because the only reason why spooks would be bad is because they prevent a clear view of the self or prevent you from claiming what you can with your power - but that presupposes the existence of a self.

It's ultimately futile - you can't control the self, you don't have dominion over it. It's something completely out of control, always changing and causes stress, but for some reason it's followed dogmatically without realising the irony of saying that a man *should* be in control of whatever he wishes.

This. He grew up in a fucking Protestant household. He commiserated with the religious.

post this on Holla Forums with some shit about fedoras and acquire their salt

bui is a falseflag and sudo is a faggot

You neuter it to the point of irrelevancy.
When people see the godhead in themselves, dogma usually falls away.

holy shit

...

You got your ass laughed out of the OC thread. Haven't you had enough?

all this will result in diminished and neutered religion. look at """"middle class"""" Christians in contemporary western society. Yeah, there are some radicals and fundamentalists, but for the most part they're only religious on the days they attend church. Imagine how much bigger the effect will be under socialism.

basically, encourage inter-religious socialist solidarity and tolerance to eventually kill religion.