Best Combat System for Turn-Based RPGs?

Chrono Trigger used ATB 2.0

ATB

What about in the case of Xenogears where all bars stop once it reaches a character's turn?

Do Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and Tactics Ogre count as turn based?
I love shit like that, tell me more games like em pls

Thats not ATB. That is just turn based with arbitrary waiting time. The difference between something like that and FFX would just be the waiting time.

How to fix ATB

Always set to active
Limit player turns to 20 seconds
Limited the number of commands and spells per character
Character-specific inventories
Button macros

wut
You might like Yggdra Union, Summon Night, Disgaea and other SRPGs.
You could also give Jagged Alliance a try.

My vote goes to Pokemon. Speed stat driven combat is the best way to go as it rewards the whole point of RPGs: Solid character building. RPGs aren't twitch-based games nor should they be, someone wants twitch-based gaming it's fucking everywhere. Pokemon is the chess of our time.

Nigger, shut the whole hell up.

I like what FFX did. Not a fan of having to get through a menu as fast as humanly possible.

If you want to shut me up do it with points, otherwise you're welcome to shut the fuck up yourself.

Im getting old, so turn based game or pause option are better for me.

Pokemon is stupidly easy. It does nothing different other than having a monster collecting gimmick which SMT and DQ did first and better Pokemon is casual garbage.

tbh FFX had the best implementation of turned based combat

Sounds like you never played it competitively. In fact it sounds like you're one of those casuals who thinks Pokemon is a Single-Player RPG.

Like other people have mentioned, just having turn order based on speed does not make an entire battle system. Most JRPGs have the faster people go first, you fucking dipshit. Pokemon is just watered down SMT, and that's on a good day.

...

The competitive scene has very little to do with the turn based combat itself. Play something like Frozen Synapse for a real competitive turn based game.

you sound like a massive faggot
Please go tip a fedora or grow a very bad beard

I really liked Shining Force 2.

Yeah, cause I'm not a fucking faggot

How does thinking that make me casual? And on that note, yes it is a single player RPG. It just has a multiplayer component but through and through the focus is on single player. Are you fucking retarded?

Just last year they let in literally every legendary except for the event mons (and that was only because people couldn't get them).

Pic related

Nice memes, you sure showed me.

CTB

...

feels good

They haven't built a game around the single player aspect since Gen 1. You know absolutely nothing.

Yep, I never will have your levels of "terminal autism" :^)

...

What the fuck are you talking about?

is right, you have terminal levels of autism

Autism speaks. Nintendo markets the game to five year olds, which I suppose is your mental age.

I don't think you know what that means

At least I don't have to pretend as if a game I like is competitive so I don't feel like I'm wasting my life away

...

Leave it to a pokefag

I'll stop

Bro, your memes are just lighting me up. I have no response, just amazing.

Funny, last I checked the competitive pokemon scene is very active.

grandia 1

action/move points or move points + action points in classic RPGs

the call of duty scene is very active too

Leave it to triggered autists freaking out about the mention of competitive pokemon you mean?

Really, is the call of duty competitive scene super active? Last I checked they don't have any worldwide tournaments. Honestly why are you so triggered? Did competitive pokemon players rape your mother to death or something?

That sounds like something I'd find on a youtube cringe compilation

Even if there were 20,000 competitive pokemon autists worldwide, it wouldn't even equate to 1% of Pokemon sales. The game is designed, developed and marketed to the 5-10 yr market.

Wait-ATB with Press Turn to manipulate the ATB Bars. Initiative to decide tied ATBs and initial ATB-Filling (eg with 4 combatants, fastest start combat with full ATB, second with 3/4, third with 1/2 and last with 1/4).
Is this retarded?

callofduty.com/uk/en/esports/
google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=call of duty tournament
I think you might be dumb AND triggered user

I'm not even going to bother getting in to this argument. Is the game marketed to kids? Yes. Does that mean it doesn't have a solid competitive scene that is at the core of it's programming? No. Sorry you're too autistic to understand subtlety.

This is delusional.

I'm dumb for not knowing about call of duty competitive? Sounds like you just love call of duty and I don't. My bad for not worshiping FPS shit. Call of Duty still doesn't equal Pokemon.

That's some impressive evidence you've got there, I have to admit.

Look at the pokefag go!

You're dumb for not googling and assuming pokemon is better because it has tournaments.

This is true however, Call of Duty is much better than a lot of the last pokemon games

Final Fantasy Tactics

You are not one to be throwing stones given all your replies are triggered ones to me.

If they developed the game to be competitive they would market is as such. They don't even market it at your age group let alone as a competitive game. Gamefreak and Nintendo make no money from this third party "competetive" nonsense, there is no profit in it for them.

Nintendo has sold over 270 million copies of Pokemon games; competitive pokemon players are, if we are being generous and saying there are 20,000 of them, an irrelevant market share to Nintendo.

Irrelevant is a good word for competitive Pokemon players. No doubt fnatic will be signing you up for a multi-million dollar deal any day now, they need those pro pokemon skills on the team.

I'm done.

Lulnope, thanks for playing though, as a parting prize you'll get a free autism check.

Why are your only examples jrpgs?

Add one more to that, because you seem to be the one who's triggered considering everyone is providing reasonable points and you keep pulling shit out your ass and responding. It's best you go son, no one will know who you are in the next thread.

I never said I play it.
But nice reaching.

I think you need some sleep, user. You're reading things that aren't there.

...

...

...

Dude, you lost, go home, it's over. No one wants to deal with your retardation. Try next time.

Are you having a stroke user?
Please calm down.

Show me them.

outsider observer here: thanks for reaffirming the knowledge that you pokefags are really, truly insufferable

Came here to post this.

...

Jesus christ, not even one of you niggers has debated a word I've said in my original comment. All it's been is "WAAAH COMPETITIVE POKEMON ISN'T A THING OR THE POINT OF THE GAME, UR AUTISIC!!" Honestly you people are fucking pathetic.

I tought that the general consensus was Paper Mario: TTYD's system

heh

Half of those make the damn thing even more simple than it already is

Wow you sound damn gay

Have you noticed that you're the only one who defended pokeshit while everyone else was against you? Have you noticed that even those who didn't argue against you where shitting on you for killing the thread with your pokefaggotry? Are you so retarded you can't even tell that you lost and no one wants to deal with your shit? Pokemon is simple garbage designed for the lowest common denominator. It's easy so little kids can have a fun time playing it and feel rewarded for little to no effort.

Calm down already, retard. The game is shit, get over it.

heh

Listen I know I'm helping ruin the thread but I need to see how far this fag will go

...

I'm with you on that one

Your appeal to the masses means nothing to me. Just because a bunch of you cucks are triggered as fuck by the phrase "competitive pokemon" doesn't mean it's not a thing, doesn't mean high level pokemon play doesn't exist, and it sure as fuck doesn't mean that high level pokemon isn't a perfect example of how good turn based combat can be. You're a mob of fucking triggered cucks just spazzing out about a phrase, not even debating points, and now you're insisting that because your fellow autists were also triggered that I should be burned at the fucking stake or at least run out of town.

You think pokemon is easy, I could make it a nightmare for you. you don't know shit. All of you faggots are just casual as fuck cucks who haven't played the game past maybe beating gen 2 with an overleveled starter. You know literally nothing about the game but you're all pretending to be experts. It's comical. Keep up that mob mentality cucks. It's literally the only way you can win.

...

...

I don't have enough reactions for this shit

...

Holy shit, are you baiting or what? Pokemon has shit turn based design that revolves around some debuffing skills and the "(rock paper scissor)^2" formula they have been using since they included a second element to each shitty pokemon.

1v1 me on showdown not online faggot

We need this edge in the Goku Black thread

This fag is the gift that keeps on giving, please someone make a meme out of this guy.

Thank you all for proving me right.

he still thinks he's right
just close the tab user
walk away

...

Keep going!

Nigger, I don't give 2 shits about your retarded debate. The only thing I know is that your post comes off autistic as fuck.

Now you're doing the exact same shit you were complaining about. See how you're autistic shit?

You scared to fight me you little bitch? 1 on 1 faggot 1 on 1

Keep it up

Not to derail the sperg war, but I like delay based systems, like FFX, where the time an action should take is taken into account in the turn order. I also like tactical RPGs, where positioning matters. The only game I'm aware of that combines the two is Operation Darkness for the 360. Any others?

Position only works in srpgs, not jrpgs. It bogs and slows down the gameplay. Lunar is a great example of that.

Not sure what you're talking about here

...

Can't think of any. On a somewhat related note; I really liked some aspects of White Knight Chronicles combat, not saying the game was good, but it had some interesting ideas that could have been good in the right hands.

Minus the exploitable tactics, it was a solid system.

vocaroo.com/i/s0wtHkVRu7UT

I prefer Grandia's way of doing it.

You are a god

Damn user

My Pokemon reaction images folder is slacking but here you go. You earned 'em.

Why am I not surprised? More a reflection on how gay you are that you read it like that. Stay poor.

He's still going!

I didn't ask for jrpgs specifically.

Always meant to check that out. Guess I'll have to, now.

He's still triggered! Don't force that meme so hard user, you might hurt yourself.

Grandia motherfuckers. Time stops for you to make decisions, so it's kinda turn based, but everything happens on a timeline.

and this right here is why the system is so cool:
>>but if they're between COM and ACT or right on ACT, enough damage at once will cancel their move!

user stop, you made a fool of yourself, Pokemon was never and never will be competitive and your way of writing makes you look like a very edgy teenager.
Just rally man, let it go, close the tab, and don't get this mad next time.

You deserve to get bullied, aspie.

...

...

Dude, stop.

The time systems I like are

Not sure about gimmicks, I just like good systems that let me break the game with various equipment and skill combos, or by abusing the enemies' elements/properties.

My man. Although they kinda nerfed the action cancel damage to only being action delay in 2, meaning critical and the single damage skills you got at the start of each character were way too useful.

I LOVE THIS FUCKING COCK SUCKING GAME

ATB is shit. Don't punish the player because you were stupid enough to put a real time element in a game where you have to dig through menus. If you're going to force the player to act in real time, don't make a psuedo-turn based combat system in the first place.

...

WE WILL CRUSH THEM IN ONE FELL SWOOP

This, just make it realtime.

Trails does the queue system very well, with delaying enemy action indefinitely possible and in many ways th most optimal strategy. Both your and the enemies' casting and turns can be denied.

How is it not turn based? You just have a turn meter instead of order.

I still like costume quest.
Every basic attack is like a FFX overdrive so you're not just watching your character attack.
You're not just sitting there watching the enemy attack, you get a QTE to mitigate damage.
The QTE is one of 4 buttons that changes so you aren't just mashing the mitigate damage button.
Besides that everything else is also really bare bones.
Real basic exploration and puzzle solving elements outside of combat.
Strangely has a very specific number of encounters that you have to instigate.
Has a job system and equips that add a very very small element of strategy.

I've been watching a retarded Canadian girl recently fail repeatedly at playing this innovative but borderline RPG for babies.
It makes me think that while I like it, most would not because of its exclusionary gameplay toward the slow dimwitted shit-for-brains that typically play more slow monotonous garbage.
I think nobody should fuck up that bad at it, but it does take more than 0 skill to beat it.
It isn't just stratedgy or worse, a gmae that just lets you mash a single button until your numbers get high enough to beat a progressive series of enemie's and their series of numbers.

A way to interrupt an action or get out of the way in time is nice too.

ATB is only acceptable if it comes with a pause, and/or actions cost different % of the bar.

(You) need to go back

The most important aspect of single-player turn based mechanics is, IMO, the ability to take as much time as you like to make your next decision without having to manually pause the game. The instant you can't just completely remove your hands from the controls, walk away, get yourself a drink, bellyrub your pet, and then come back 15 minutes later when you're in a calmer headspace is the moment the game stops being turn based. Maybe you can finagle the dictionary definition of "turn based" to include games where you can't do that, but I'm not going to play a "turn based" game where you can't stop playing at any time, and I'm pretty sure being able to do so is why a lot of people play turn-based games.

That's the reason why some games with ATB let you choose between active and "wait"

Poke'mon hate thread?
Poke'mon hate thread

So high level competitive poke'mon play.
Here is what I've seen from hanging out around one of my shitass friends.
You minmax specific poke'mon according to a guide you'd easily be able to read online that goes into the math of why specific poke'mon are better than others.
If the organizer didn't make specific age brackets you beat on a bunch of 8 year olds, almost like it is a game for children.
You then go up against a similar autistic man-blob who has strikingly similar poke'mon.
You then see who has the better RNG.
You win and then the T-shirt you win isn't small enough for you so you give it to your friend who watched this sad disgusting display of a fat man-boy "winning" at a game with less skill involved than tiddlywinks.
You then buy every game in the series every other year they come out and ask your friend to hang out so he can watch you still watching gamegrumps while you show an example of "Principle of least effort" in relation to games by just pressing the a-button a bunch each battle.

speed based turn orders with skill based attacks.

Cool story bro. If they had mixed ages and a fucking shirt for prizes it sounds about as high level as a fucking basic slime in Dragon Quest.

Came here to say this, but Grandia III needs a mention too for its cool, Chrono Trigger-like team combos.Play this shit niggers.

I'M TOTALLY WITH YOU, MAN. I MEAN, SEE THIS VIDEO, SEE HOW INTENSE THIS SHIT IS.
POKEMON IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST INTENSE, VISCERAL, SKILL-INTENSIVE, COMPLEX, UNIQUE, INTERESTING, INNOVATIVE, REVOLUTIONARY, GROUND-BREAKING GAME-CHANGER RPG GAME OF ALL TIMES. I MEAN IT, HANDS DOWN.
IT REQUIRES SO MUCH SMARTNESS, THIS GUYS COULD BE SOLVING EQUATIONS TO GET A MODERN COMBUSTION ROCKET THAT COULD TAKE MAN TO THE MOON IN HALF AN HOUR, YET THEY ARE PLAYING THIS FABULOUS GAMES THAT REQUIRES WAY MORE "BRAIN INTENSIVE" ACTIVITY IN ORDER TO STAY COMPETITIVE.

shit posting aside: what's the best way to play Grandia 3 without getting a console? Does it emulate good on the PS2 or it is better on the Dreamcast? I couldn't finish it and my DC died on me after a thunderstorm

You guys are slacking.

someone posted it but didn't write it

The rhythm game combo system was p. cool but I believe the way health works has been around since Mother.

Calm down sperg. Also slow down on the reddit formatting.

III is only on PS2, II is the multiplat. I've heard II's Anniversary Edition on PC gets the job done, but like pretty much all remasters it's not perfect. I've never been able to get III running well on PCSX2, but your results may vary.

Oh my god are you the same user from a few days ago that didn't know what reddit formatting was and was just throwing the word around

Oh man unreal

The one thing I like about pokemon is the typing system.
I'd like to see it in a better game.

Chrono Cross

You don't even know what reddit formatting is.
I'll give you an example here.

Do bear in mind that I'm doing this on propose.

Worth mentioning, the video I embed is from a championship, that's high end game right there…

And it is utter shit, everyone ends up with the same pokemon teams doing the exact same shit.

Get the fuck off already or back your claim with actual arguments instead of spreging out..

Fug, you're right. I could have sworn it was III on the dreamcast. I was on the second CD when the console died on me, game was fun as fuck. Is 3 better?

It's honestly been a long time since I've played III, and I never finished it. I remember the story being pretty lame but the updates to the combat system made it fun as fuck.

I see. I guess I'll have to play both.

I like this gimmick. There was an rpg on ps1 that used this well iirc. Don't remember the name.

Legend of Dragoon?

Hmm, it did have "dragoon" in the name I think. All I remember is that it looked kinda like ff7 and had QTEs involving blue squares during attacks. Looks like this could be it.

Yes, that would be it.

Cool. Gonna emulate the shit out of this. Thanks, user.

No problem. It's very much a PS1 RPG that suffers from a lot of the problems that are levied at 90's JRPGs, but it's a fine journey if that's up your alley.

It's funny how defensive they get, like hipsters who throw a tantrum when people don't see their shit games as art, or when you tell a meleefag that theirs is not a fighting game.

Anyway, Baten Kaitos is the shit

Better indent your paragraphs.

No seriously. Having it so the focus was on avoiding getting hit was a great way of ensuring it's always possible to win a fight. I'd love to see another game develop on the idea with stronger rpg-elements.

I don't give a fuck if you fags recognize Pokemon as competitive or not. It is. Period. End of story. There is nothing you can say that will change that. It's sad that Holla Forums has gotten so casual that you faggots don't know that, and are in such massive denial you're triggered at the mere mention of it to the point of where you comment for hours about it with no actual arguments just insults.

You people are just butthurt that your RPG systems aren't as respected and have since been thrown away for something gay while Pokemon stands strong. Keep crying fags.

My favourite battle system is Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga's, with it's speed-based turn order and skill-based attacks, though that system isn't easily translatable to other games in the genre. Personally, I still like the traditional speed-based turn order over ATB. ATB just feels like the devs want their system to be real-time, but they're too damn scared or don't have the technology to go all the way, though admittedly I really hate how a lot of RPGs today clearly just wanna be straight-up action games while still trying to follow an old-school JRPG formula.

yeah, gibari was a cool party member

For tactical games (those that involve more than standing and hitting each other like JA2) the best system is a standard turn order with faster units being given more TUs/APs (or whatever you call the points you spend to do actions). For shitty JRPGs turn based games that just involve two sides standing opposite each other base the order on speed statistics with the possibility for someone to go twice before someone else acts if they're fast enough.

Jesus fucking christ user.

Might as well play competitive rock paper scissors tbqh lad

I agree, I love the Superstar Saga style. I wish more games followed Superstar Saga's trend but, I think it went too far when the special attacks started becoming more like mindgames. Original Bros attacks with advances will always be my preference.

I'm really fond of the press turn system too, but I feel like it gets too one-sided too easily. It's really easy to start dominating fights or get dominated without much room to fight back. I dont think the player should be coddled, but it's no fun getting stomped by common enemies because of bad luck. Though it also comes down to proper team composition and planning. So, I suppose most complaints can also be corrected by playing smarter.

Could the smirk of SMTIV+Apocalypse exist as a separate mechanic? Should it be removed? I liked it and think it works well, but I don't have much experience with the SMT series to be a good judge.

Pokemon is only good in triples.

I came to say Grandia, but some other user already said. Anyway, Grandia, it's effective mixture of turn based and real time, since your actions take time to actually happen and can be interrupted by enemies attacks.

Fucking hell.

As for the thread topic, I can't stand ATB, since it always ends up playing like a bad metroidvania, a bad souls game, or fucking FFXII, and I don't want to play any of those, I want a good RPG.
Just give me an initiative stack, unless it's an SRPG.

No.

Battle grid

Yet you defended it for 26 posts trying to prove its competitive

You're in denial. Competitive gaming, like esports, is a joke. With that said, pokemon isn't competitive.

I agree

Despite everything else about the game I really enjoyed undertale's combat, hopefully it gets put to better use in something else.

I like the "qte" turn based combat that seven stars, paper Mario and M&L provided. It's more engaging

Yeah, I feel it's too potent as it is, but I like it thematically, the character/enemy getting confident and performing better as a result. What do you think about it existing independent of the Press Turn system? A guaranteed performance boost that results from making smart plays?

QTEs or free-moving like Tales of the Abyss. Atleast I feel like i'm doing something amidst all that grinding, otherwise I get so fucking bored I feel like offing myself.

You're not very smart are you nigger?

...

There's also Rogue Galaxy, which was sort of Active Time Battle and free moving.

Bump

Fuck everyone else, a mix between Final Fantasy X and Xenogears would make my dick rock hard. I hate how combat works in 99% of RPGs I've played, I would love something akin to Killer Instinct button inputs in combat.

Guys, this game is totally for adults. Check out this tournament champion.

Don't, the game is bad.

It's actually TRS formatting btew

Speed and actions taken affect wait time before being able to take another turn, e.g. fftactics, otherwise just the speed stat is ok. Set order is pretty boring, ATB is shit, just play an actual action game instead of a strategy game pretending to be fast-paced. Press turn system in SMT games is ok too,.
Paper mario M&L games are fun and probably the best way to take a platformer into an rpg setting without totally alienating fans, but the games would probably be better classified as closer to an action game than strategy and are definitely not a good way to make a strategy-focsed game

...

I lyk dis a lot

I haven't really played a turn based game I wouldn't prefer proper action combat for. It can be cool queing up actions, combos, and special abilities like in Kingdom Hearts Re: Chain of Memories and ATB can be cool, but I'd still prefer proper action. I'm probably just a faggot. Turn-based is cool for Tactic RPGs, but I don't see the fun in two sides smacking eachother one after the other considering how limited the action lists usually are in something like Pokemon.

Charge/tick time based RPGs/TBSes are superior to other forms, with ATB coming in at a close second. Turn based, whether free allocation (TBS) or speed based are abominations and unfun. Especially in the TBS genre. Dear God, another ambush right after I ended my turn? Who would have guessed.

I like it when there are mini-games on the screen that you can play.

great game, the TBS was really fast paced

I just want to give a shoutout to the "Step based" system for Roguelikes. They aren't quite as good with multiple PCs, though that is somewhat workable still.

One of the nice things about step-based, other than supporting variable length turns from the outset (making speed a VERY strong stat), is that it cuts down a lot of the wait time with enemies taking their turns seemingly simultainiously.

ATB is not turn-based.

...

I'd like to see Nechronica's system in vidya. It's basically an action queue system with a countdown track, allowing for simultaneous actions, interrupts and overspending.

If two characters have the same AP value, their actions will occur simultaneously, even if they're attacking each other. Mutual kills can occur as a result of this. If your AP is close enough to another character's, you can interrupt that character's action in exchange for an AP penalty. You can also use more AP than is left on the track in exchange for an AP penalty next turn.

The main thing about that system is it seems any speed bonus you get is added on to each track instead of each turn, meaning you get a bunch of actions at once and then you are 1 to 1 with the enemy until the next track. Otherwise it seems like a fairly standard action-time system, easily compared with a roguelike or somesuch.

Yeah, the frontloaded actions are a little weird. Maybe an actions-per-turn system would work better, with an even spread across a turn's length (turn length is completely arbitrary with this system; even an infinite track would work). Some commands would take more than one action, as with the AP track, so interrupts could happen naturally instead of penalizing the player.

...

Why not Fallout Tactics?

Competitive Pokemon is only good online or with friends, pls don't tell me you go to tourneys like those stupid smash fags.

...

Hey man, little hint here. "competitive pokemon" isn't getting reactions out of people because it's triggering. It's getting reactions because it's funny as hell.

Holy shit. I'm fucking howling and screaming with laughter here, fucking hell.

ATB is a bastardised variant.

Press Turn and similar systems are good for encouraging player knowledge but can be abused when creating difficult scenarios.

Pokemon used priority-altering moves about as well as can be expected.

Attack timing mechanics are good and I'd say that the Shadow Hearts series did it best.

Bravely Default is the best incarnation of a classic turn-based system however.

Charge Turn Battle is the best system.
It was first used in Ogre Battle and got popular with Final Fantasy X. Now a lot of JRPGs are using it, like the Trails series.
It's the logical next step from ATB:
The wait time between turns is removed.
You don't waste time when selecting your next move, just like you enemies.
You can better plan ahead, because you can see when the characters next turns will be.

My issue with press-turn is that it can make big fights feel really anti-climatic. If you control the turns too much then you don't get to feel challenged. If you don't, you'll end up stomped. Strangely, the minotaur bossfight in SMTIV seemed to have a perfect balance where either side could gain stacked press-turns and it wouldn't feel one-sided or doom you to an early death. I'm not sure if it's just the escalation of power scale from there or if my team composition was just good enough to survive but not good enough to dominate. I found that desperate struggle from either side to be the most satisfying fight I've had by far.

Pokemon is a shitty franchise for children you autistic moron

Graphics play a roll in this but I would say if you are going with modern graphics than you want a turn based RPG that is going to keep the character engaged.

To be rather honest with you, I think the best I've played so far in terms of pure battle mechanics had to be FFXIII-3 Lightning Returns.

If you haven't played it, it had that costume switching system (which could easily be a character switching system). You had ATB gauges that would fill up and each attack or even block or dodge you used would use that gauge.
The kicker is that once one is used up you could switch to another costume (character set) and now you had a fresh gauge with other abilities and such. While switched out, the former depleted one would start to recover.