What is your opinion on save states/restore points?

Using it as a pseudo-save-system for games with infinite continues or passwords is fine.

Otherwise I'll sometimes use them to grind bosses that I can't figure out but take too long to get too (like, say, the final boss of Ninja Gaiden) but I don't consider the game beaten until I beat it clean.

They aren't even that hard though.

Nevermind, I read that as save points, not save states.
Save states are very useful but can easily break the game if you abuse them, so it's up to the player if they want a challenge or not I guess.

They are cheating and only breed casuals like this one

really sick of underage autists complaining about the way other people play video games

there is no objective case that can be made for it to be called "cheating". in fact, "cheating" in general doesn't truly exist, it's a fucking buzzword that clinical autists use to express anger at the thought of someone else circumventing what they believe to be a "pure" or "intended" experience.

its stupid and if you have any sort of opinion about the way other people play vidya you need to get off your high horse, tell your mother to hold the tendies, and hang yourself

It is cheating unless you are using them to skip unskippable cutscenes or to continue from the level select menu in games that didn't even had passwords like MM1. Everything else is cheating and you should feel bad.

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When I'm playing a game with instant fail states and I can do something perfectly on a consistent basis then I usually do a save state before a thing that has killed me at least 3 times before. Because I get annoyed as fuck that I have to waste a ton of time getting to the same point.

Instant fail states are fucking garbage.

I use save states for these reasons:
1) Not having to input a password
2) Emulator works like ass and fucks up the saves or crashes any time
3) Trying out stupid shit like what would happen if I hit an explosive barrel with a knife
4)Skip dialogue, cutscenes

Every other use I consider it cheating

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Aaaah, yeah, that makes sense. That's a logical way to use them if you're shit at games.

I only use them to speed up the process of dying and starting over.
Instead of dying, watching the death animation, seeing the "ready!" thing, watching my character spawn in, and then being given control, I just load a state that I made at the moment I'm given control at that checkpoint.

It's also a good way to play a game while ignoring limited lives. I was never a big fan of lives, even back when it was the golden standard.

Boy I sure love shit that comes offscreen that I couldn't have possibly known about without trial and error that screws me out of a life.

The only reason that retro games don't have save states besides technical shit in the NES era is because they wanted to make a ten minute game last twenty hours so kids would keep renting it, thus more money.

Welp, the thread went to shit quickly. I mean, I also think spamming save states is cheating, but what do you care if other people do it? Why do you guys want to be the video game police?
Is it so you can feel you're better than someone else at something?

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Yeah, totally, man, it's those evil devs making games sooooo haaaaaard. It's cool, I get it. I mean, sure, the devs didn't see any money from rentals so your logic is shit of course but, sure, yeah, the devs are just evil you don't just suck.

Fuck off.

You aren't getting good though. You aren't getting better at the game, you are simply memorizing the patterns of the level so that you can progress, hence why you can't predict these things through gameplay, only by playing the level beforehand hence me calling it trial and error.

History lesson time! The Lion King for the SNES/Sega Genesis was made specifically hard on Level 2 so that people would keep renting to get past it. This is proven fact by the developers as they mentioned designing the level in such a way because Disney was partnered with some rental shops

Is there a penalty associated with failing what you're attempted besides wasted time?

If yes, then it's cheating.

Oh, shit, you're right. That one time it maybe happened definitely makes you not shit at a totally different game. I getcha. Totally.

How is memorisation not a skill?

Tell me Mr. Condescending Sarcasm. Is there any way to predict the minecarts that attack you in Minecart Carnage without knowing the level beforehand. Maybe a graphic in the background? Sound effect? None of those things are in the game?

Then it's fucking trial and error.

Because it doesn't require any talents or skills. Even a guy with down syndrome can eventually brute force his way through shit like Battletoads because he dumped enough time into learning the patterns. Point is that you don't win these old games with skill, you win them by eventually brute forcing via naturally memorizing the levels.

Again, how is memorization not a skill?

Because anybody can memorize. It comes naturally.

if you dont like it, dont use it.

casual central unless you use them to not have to play the game in one sitting (i.e using save states like save games, except you don't use them once you die or whataever)

you overestimate the casuals

If we're talking about older, NES-era games, save state away. Live systems, unfair deaths, no save system, and just an overall high difficulty curve; those things weren't there to make the game hard, they were there to increase the amount of time it took you to play the game and feel like you were getting a 12 hour game instead of a 2 hour one.

So many of those design choices weren't there for the sake of the game, but to appease the people saying they wanted more, and this was the cheapest way to provide a lot more game with very little effort. I think it's completely okay to circumvent those walls, you've got better thing to do/No, you don't/other vidya to play, so you can't spend all of it running through the first 5 minutes of a level just so you can beat the last minute.

Please prove your statement with actual facts. You might as well say "anybody can learn to draw a masterpiece".

What's with these endlessly repeating threads?

Even people with down syndrome given enough time can beat even the "hardest" NES games because they don't require anything beyond basic skills due to their very design and trial and error. Leaps of faith, offscreen enemies, etc.

If not everybody could remember things, how would we remember to eat? How would we remember to breathe?

the dubs aren't of digits, but of soul

If not everybody was skilled then how would we make instant noodles? How would we be capable of pissing in the toilet?

Fast reaction time.

You know, like people good at games have?

I am absolute trash at platformers, so I had to use save states to get through the original Super Mario Bros. I didn't make a save state after every obstacle cleared mind you, I'd just make one at the beginning of each level. If I die, I'd load the save. I feel like that's fair, since I've basically given myself infinite lives, but I don't get to save again until I beat the level from start to finish.

Like I said, these games don't require anything beyond skills a random ten year old would have in games. Extremely simple controls, simple game mechanics, usually easy to understand graphics/UI, yada yada yada. So what do they do to compensate for this, after all these games could be easily beaten in ten minutes. They add trial and error, the same shit arcade games have but instead of having people dump quarters, it's dumping game rentals.

Motherfucker, don't you tell me about fast reaction times. I could probably beat anybody on this board at the Pinball Arcade but that's besides the point. Anyhow, I've heard this defense before so I'll use the same response. The thing is that there's no way to know it's coming using skills besides trial and error memorization. There's nothing in the gameplay you can do, it's either you memorize it or you manage to avoid it, either way it's unfair because it's the game playing you rather than the other way around.

Depends on the game. For example I find that classic PC shooters are usually designed in a way that expects the player to use them, at least on a first run. I've beaten the original Max Payne numerous times but even now, I couldn't imagine trying to beat the hardest difficulty without save states.

This too tbh. Though I'm too stubborn to use save states on every NES game, some games really warrants them. Games like the Mega Man titles which are just filled with cheap shit that just ruins the experience for me.

Again, how is memorization not a skill?

Save states in ROMs are cheating.

Save points/options built into the game by design are not cheating. They may get cheap/casual at times (e.g. quick-saving in an RPG before every encounter), but they aren't cheating.

We're going in circles. Anybody can memorize shit. It's a basic human function and it comes naturally.

The lives barely even fucking matter, why would you need infinite?

I am really, really bad at platformers

We're going in circles. Anybody can become skilled at shit. It's a basic human function and it comes naturally.

The reason we're going in circles is because you refuse to address the question. Address it or not. If you cannot address it then just admit its a skill and you're butthurt because you're awful at it.

user, this is an unreal amount of bad, in all honesty ==GIT GUD==

Memorization is not a skill because anybody can do it. Skills are something not everybody can do (Like making a "masterpiece" level painting).

You "become" skilled at NES/SNES games because you've played them enough to memorize every part of it, hence why I keep saying it's trial and error. There's nothing in the games that goes beyond a ten year old skill level because of the simple game design due to the technology limitations/controller/consumer base being used to arcade games. Anybody can complete NES/SNES games given enough time because the skill floor is extremely low and all it takes to complete them is enough timesink into memorization. See kids! After just forty hours of trial and error you to can brag to your friends that you beat Contra.

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Fixed.

hXc man I'm shocked any games challenge you. That game is like the pinnacle of skill. Like, I see someone call Pinball Arcade their favorite game and I'm like, damn, that's one skilled motherfucker. It has the fastest reaction times to ever react at times. There's no way they'd be so shit they'd need to use save states to beat Donkey Kong Country. There's no way they'd be that shit at games. They'd react way too fast. Probably break the keyboard trying to save state. Probably end up going backwards in the game they react so quick at their need to save state simple games. Like…whoa. That's crazy dude.

Can anybody make the Mona Lisa?

Again, memorization is a natural human function. It does not require training or talents

Is that a man or a woman?

Does it matter?

Takes a lot of
TRIAL AND ERROR
but yes they can.
Fixed.

It's time to stop posting.

I'm not gonna risk it.

I tried! I owned the GBA version of SMB and I played it throughout high school, even using the warps I would lose all my lives on World 8 and be forced to start over. I could breeze through the path to get to the World 8 warp pipe, but World 8-2 and 8-3 gave me a ton of trouble. Is it really so bad that I essentially cut out the 5 minutes I would spend getting back to World 8 every time I lost all my lives?

No it doesn't. It requires an artistic vision, plus talents to reach a piece of such detail, not to mention specific tools and having the sophisticated mindset of someone like Leonardo da Vinci (One of the highest IQs ever recorded)

If you asked me to make a perfect recreation of the Mona Lisa, I wouldn't be able to do it because I don't have the artistic skills.

Look at her hips.

Also IQ wasn't fucking invented when Da Vinci was alive you fucking retard.
And you wouldn't be able to do blindfolded chess because you wouldn't be capable of memorizing the entire chessboard and the location of the pieces. But look at that, other people can.

You're just butthurt that you have absolutely no memory skills.

You're only being this autistic because your categorization of yourself as "skillful" is under threat.

Video games train you to do a specific task. To compare that to a creative art is pathetic.

They make sense on a portable since people generally play them on the go and stages might take too long for a train ride or bus ride.

It will inevitably lead to casual filth like , but the pros outweigh the cons.

Correct, but only if the game is designed to allow it. Abuse of in-game mechanics is frequently casual and a shitty thing to do, but it's not cheating.

Examples of cheating:

Examples of not cheating:

This applies to non-video games as well. For example, playing blackjack while hiding aces in your pocket and swapping them with your dealt cards is cheating. Counting cards, while arguably unfair, is not strictly cheating. If anyone else can do it using aspects inherent to the game itself, it's not cheating.

Because they're two different things. The definition of trial and error is "the trying of one thing or another until something succeeds" meanwhile the definition of practice is "to do something again and again in order to become better at it".

The difference between trial and error and practice is that anybody can do something that requires trial and error meanwhile not everybody can do something that requires practice.

Forgot to mention, Leonardo's IQ is assumed to be 190 or higher. People can perform blindfolded chess because they've memorized it via enough play.

This is how stupid you are.

You’re mentally defective.

Why would anybody care about your feelings? It's better to have means of avoiding repetitive grind.

You could let a random guy practice art for a million freakin' years and I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't come up with something Leonardo can do. It requires dedication, special inherit talents, etc.

How can you not see how fucked up you are? Do you have some kind of autism?

Dude seriously do you have mental issues?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Listen to me, you little faggot. My entire life has been destroyed due to memory loss. Don’t spew your shit.

No, it really doesn't. The only REAL requirement is dedication and a bit of autism. Retards don't have dedication and true autists are too single minded.

Please read the page instead of just linking it.

Thing is, memorization/"trial and error" is in fact a skill that can be practiced and learned, such that some people will do it better than others. In a video game context, a more skilled player will be able to pick up on enemy patterns, effective combos, etc. much faster than someone who has poor memorization skills.

Link related, an average guy who trained his way to being able to memorize an entire deck of cards: ted.com/talks/joshua_foer_feats_of_memory_anyone_can_do?language=en

lol niggers and their shit memory

No dude its totally not a skill because then he'd be shit at it and that's impossible.

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They're all women.

No, your life was destroyed by mental illness. Memory loss is considered an illness, see amnesia.

Instead of replying to my rebuttal, you tried to attack my mental state ruling your argument as ad hominem.

"Autism" isn't trial and error though.

That's true, more skilled people are better at finding patterns but that does not overrule my original point. The only reason skilled people have an easier time is because they've played more games and thus it is easier to find design patterns because it's sorta like deja vu.

It is, but why would a cheater give a fuck about what other people think?

So do you actually have some mental condition or not?

You're retarded.

You were using it in an attempt to derail the argument, rather than using it as an attempt to question the argument so yes, it is fallacious.

So do you actually have some mental condition or not?

Again you force me to repeat myself. Now that you've been proven wrong and admitted as much this is the only thing left. Are you fucked in the head or not?

You implied that it wasn't a fallacy because you claimed that you were trying to legitimately question the argument.

Limited lives only really belong in arcades and games with scoring mechanics

its yet another way emulator fags pervert the intended experience of developers.

I think that we have a new (215) who needs to validate and enforce his opinions onto strangers on the net.

Again.
So do you actually have some mental condition or not?

Depends on how often you use it. I wouldn't mind using it to get right back to a boss to start the fight again, but using it during a boss battle to get more health is shsmeful

What did everyone just accept the premise that the fucking minecart levels in DKC is impossible to react to and have to be done via trial and error? That's objectively untrue. Just because you suck at the game doesn't mean everyone else does. Plenty of people myself included can make it through without falling on the first go. I don't remember that shit every time I play the game.

It's a meme perputrated by casuals bitching about old games, see also the Water Temple

100% this.

If the game features inflated/artificial difficulty in order to mask the lack of content and stretch out the game, I use savestates guilt free, at intervals I feel are "fair". This really only happens with arcade ports, and other titles from that era that were designed around eating quarters.

This board have fallen really deep in the shithole

Quicksave functionality is good for if you need to stop a game at the drop of a hat and want to pick back up again later, which is what I use savestates for. You always account for the intended purpose, not scummers that use it to cheat.

We can't enable them, just be rude and they'll go back to reddit, you can clearly tell that cddc3e is from reddit by the way he formats his posts.

savestates is for uber casuals that require checkpoints every two steps

you have thousands and thousands of people who actually beat some fucking games before you were born and you're a little bitch ass faggot cumming into the fight and then using savestates to assblast your way through, you're a bitch, not just being a bitch, you're THE bitch. grow some balls and actually play the game as it's intended you fucking retard.

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yeah, it is. oh well. some romhacks expect you to do it though.

/thread

I don't mind them, but they should be far enough apart that you risk losing 30-60 minutes of progress if you play stupidly when shit hits the fan.

If the game was not intended to be played that way, it's cheating. End of story.

Checkpoint-based save systems are fake difficulty.
Real gud games allow for Quicksave/Quickload at any time.

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Indeed, properly implemented games have that. They also allow players to play around and try out dumb stuff without risking progress, like finding the most funny way to die at a specific point.
Which is the point of "playing" (autists don't understand this).

I use them to save if I'm about to fuck off to do something else. It's handier than in-game saves most of the time.

Kill yourself, casual scum.

I enjoy savescumming.

You don't just enjoy it. You literally can't finish a pretty simple game without it, stop making excuses.

I don't give a shit one way or another

It's completely cheating, I emulate a ton of games and I simply don't use them instead of the in game save feature.

I do however save state frequently in case of a power outage, or if I have to leave for a few hours. It's handy to get right back to where I left.

That's what games are made for.
I savescum to get the perfect run. For example if a miniboss fight didn't turn out good (wasted to much health and ammo), I quickload and fight him again. If the fight works out of the first half, but becomes less optimal in the second, I go back to mid fight.
In most fake difficulty games with checkpoints the outcome of a boss fight is completely binary. Once you triggered the defeat script and reached the next checkpoint, it doesn't matter at all, how well you did.

What about grindy stuff in rpgs? especially stuff where otherwise you'd just be soft resetting, so making a save state before triggering the rng to set in order to skip through the developer/start menu/load menu each time you reload the rng event. I'm pretty sure that's not really cheating.
As for grey area stuff, what about save states for stuff like, holding a specific skill set that's pretty good but not perfect for a demon during fusion in an smt game, than trying for the perfect skill set, but if you still can't get it after dozens of tries you just give up and use the pretty good skill set, which you left in the save state?
I know once I used a save state grinding in an smt game when a demon with expel showed up, I would've just run, but instead I used a savestate at the beginning of the battle. I did get a game-over in the end and reloaded the save state, but I felt bad for using it, even if it was just while grinding, since it cheapened the experience. So I'd say that was definitely cheating, even if only a white-lie level of cheating, it was still cheating.

What's wrong with cheating. I play games for fun.

I generally try to go through a level in a game without saving, only saving at the start of each new level. If I die at a particular spot 3 or so times in a row though I'll save shortly before it so I stop having to slog through everything before it. Though this does depend on the game, I've been playing Marathon Phoenix recently and it's too much of a pain in the ass to not save frequently.

Nothing, autists don't play games for fun.

Wow. Look at all the l33t gamurz. Look how hardcore they are! So amazing is their skill!
Clearly they are such superior human beings than others. Unless you play InronMan on hardest difficulty with extra difficulty mods, you are a pussy!

In an emulated game, you're a pleb if you use them for anything but practicing sections.

If arbitrary savestates are a feature of the game, it ruins the game whether or not you use them.
If you do use them, you cheat yourself out of any challenge, suspense, and connection to the game.
If you don't use them, the game is probably fucked anyway due to the difficulty being balanced around spamming saves every 10 seconds.

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Savestates are good for:

That's what I personally do at least.

upboat

Yeah but then clinical autists won't have any other accomplishment in life to be proud of other than that they managed to finish Gay Platformer 9000 on a single life after playing it a million times.

Who cares if people cheat with savestates, it's actually a nice feature to circumvent the artificial difficulty of those faggot games.

I think it's perfectly valid to use it in place of the game's saving mechanic (when allowed to save) since the game offers the option anyway and it can be more convenient. Otherwise, depending on the type of game maybe only after a boss fight or beginning of a new world/level. Personally I may do it on a first playthrough, but I won't use them outside of designated saving areas if I want to git gud.
I don't think anyone is going to deny that saving in the middle of a level or fight is just giving yourself an unfair advantage.

Donkey Kong Country? The games are challenging in the later levels, but they're not THAT hard. You need to play harder games if you think Donkey Kong Country is a game you need to savescum for.

Depends on how you use em, back as kid i had save states before bosses so i could refight them after i beat them if i felt like it whenever i emulated shit.

They can also be fun to use to figure out how the RNG in particular games work.

I savescum every game. Life's too short not to.

frankly, getting into a new world in DKC and beating the stages that lead up to the first save point is part of the challenge. It forces you to get better. When you can just savescum your way to a no death completion of the game it's just fucking lame. If anyone out there has done this for any game, replay it without doing it, because you are not getting the same experience by being a cheap fuck.

It's cheating. Anyone who tries to mitigate or deny that needs to grow up. There's plenty of good reasons to cheat, such as saving time or going through some difficulty spike; but if it isn't a feature of the game itself, then it's cheating.

Very nice for games like Faxandu (NES) that would have tou write down long-ass code.

I only use savestates for the sake of practicing, with the ultimate goal to 1cc the game as intended

I see no issue with it. I do it myself to make some old games less frustrating. Remember, vidya is for fun. Don't be an autist.

There's nothing wrong with learning patterns and learning how to get through them. You're just a whiny bitch.

holy shit kill yourself you casual faggot cuck