Is it ever coming out Holla Forums?

They don't know what they're doing and even if it comes it'll be shit.
Think hollywood remakes not an HD remaster.

Nah, kys fam.

Apart from having spears, wakizashis, mysticism, the armor slots, speed, acrobatics, athleticism, and levitation, the mechanics of Morrowind are trash.

Morrowind's mechanics are made to allow sandbox gameplay. This means you can combine endless alchemy, magic and enchanting with all skills to get something new and unique. It also allows for two or more clashing effects to create something new to circumvent various gameplay problems you run in with your specific build. No other hand crafted game ever came close to being such a playground.
Skyrim isn't even the same genre. Since you're comparing the two, you're showing that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

It's an RPG and considering the time and genre, it wasn't possible to make it any differently. And I still haven't seen any similar game address the problems nor get close to Morrowind in what it does.

TL;DR
Kill yourself action-adventure "press button and something awesome happens" casual "dragon age and batman" faggot. You are a console turd.

Dragon's Dogma is a better rpg than Morrowind tbh

What other RPGs do you spend half the game missing 99% of your attacks?

In D&D they don't require you to get a natural 20 for every single attack until you've got a high level character made up, why is the equivalent fine for Morrowind?

Also all those things you listed that you can do in Morrowind you can still do in Oblivion or Skyrim, they didn't take out Alchemy, Magic or Enchanting, or playing with specific builds.

So if I want to play Morrowind, what's recommended to make it playable on modern machines?

Have a look at >>>/tes/11377

There was no need to hate the game that is better than both skyrim and morrowind.

...

Whatever you say.

It's ok to prefer one game over another, but it's another to tell lies to other people and yourself over the pros and cons of both in order to justify your preference.

Just say you prefer the mechanical depth or the setting and quick being a fag about it.

heh farts

What lies? You mean yours?
If you use weapons that you're actually built for you'll be fine. What the fuck do you expect to happen if you use a blunt weapon when you've only got 15 in that skill?

Okay so are you going to stop?

To do less damage or use more stamina
Missing when you're hitting is fucking dumb game design

Only retards would defend it

Don't forget

Exactly.
I mean I love Morrowind as much as the next guy, but it's as flawed as all the other TES games. As a matter of fact I don't think there's a single TES game that succeeds in more than one aspect.

You're deflecting so hard, you keep implying the game is being played blatantly wrong to imply the fault lies in the person and not the mechanics, even though the problem with weapon accuracy is something that effects practically every character outside of very specific race/class combinations for at least the first few hours and can continue to be a problem 10+ hours into the game depending on how much time you do or don't spend swinging away blind at mudcrabs and scrib.

Yes, I expect that if I hit someone with a weapon, it registers as a hit once in awhile from a mechanical standpoint, that's reasonable to anyone that doesn't masturbate to the thought of having to deal with unfun mechanics for several hours to get to the gooey center that is 'tolerable'.

none of them succeed in any aspect. They are all around bad games.

By the last one I mean that the first 15 levels your character is complete trash and by level 25, you are literally a god. There is no combat balance in Morrowind, even with difficulty slider. It's even less balanced than Skyrim, which is saying a lot since Skyrim is only balanced around adept difficulty.

That's not true. Daggerfall has the most interesting mechanics and was the more technically advanced for the time. Morrowind definitely has the best lore, Oblivion has the most interesting quests and Skyrim has the best looking and varied map.

Still haven't played Arena

Love to see liars fall back on the "MUH MISS CHANCE I DESERVE TO ALWAYS HIT NO MATTER WHAT" because they hate RPGs. Someone should make a mod to just have it say "enemy blocked your attack because you are unskilled BUT YOU HIT YES YOU HIT YOU'RE SUCH A GOOD BOY!!!" so they have no more complaints about the game.

and they all have awful game play.

Kys

Is he ever coming out, Holla Forums?

Yeah that would make much more sense

...

Again, I bring up the question, what other RPGs have it so you miss 99% of your attacks for a large portion of the game? How do you explain the fact that this isn't the case with things that are textbook definitions of what an RPG is?

lol m8 u just have to kill mudcrabs for the first 20 lvls gitgud fgt

Nah man I'm a casual who wants to not be a useless retard until he grinds rat equivalents for hours, I'll just kill myself for being such an RPG hater instead.

Pic related, what I'm too retarded to enjoy.

So you just want Skyrim button-mashing with no prior thought involved in your build, is that it?
It's called an abstraction, you halfwit.

It's almost as if you'd be less able to fight after running for twenty minutes with a small armoury's worth of equipment on your back!

>even though the problem with weapon accuracy is something that effects practically every character outside of very specific race/class combinations for at least the first few hours and can continue to be a problem 10+ hours into the game depending on how much time you do or don't spend swinging away blind at mudcrabs and scrib

With bracers or some kinds of gauntlets on? Yes, you would be able to block a sword provided you're skilled enough. That's not exactly a giant leap of imagination, and you've still not accounted for the further abstraction of things like poor edge alignment, dodges, or superficial blows. If you're looking for solid momentum based melee combat, go download Mount and Blade instead.

So you're not going to stop lying, like you tried chastising the other guy for.

Ignoring your blatant lies. Argumentum ad populum "ITS NOT POPULAR SO ITS BAD". Just because Morrowind does something YOU haven't seen before doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. You just hate RPGs and only want to play action games. Good thing we have Skyrim now because of you and people like you where half the mechanics are gone and the game only exists to instantly gratify because you can do no wrong in it.

More like

You can't name anything, can you?

I wasn't aware I was supposed to name anything. What do I need to name? No I don't need to address a fallacy if that's what you mean.

In response: You really can't do anything but lie and spout fallacies can you?

You're playing Morrowind wrong. I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. Nobody in their right mind plays in such a way that you miss 99% of your attacks for any portion of the game because they're not fucking retards and take measures to avoid having that happen which include but are not limited to:

The game gives you every opportunity to succeed, but you seem insistent on failing because you're too retarded to deal with "failure". I strongly suspect you take it as a personal offense, "why am I missing? I am skilled and clearly visually hitting them!". This is the wrong mindset for all RPGs, not just Morrowind. YOU are not doing ANYTHING. Your CHARACTER is. Your CHARACTER is missing because HE doesn't have the appropriate skill to pull off the attack. This is a core feature of RPGs and has been since the very inception of the genre back in the tabletop days. If you cannot grasp this concept then "roleplaying" has no meaning to you at all.

If the concept of the character not literally being YOU upsets you, then you shouldn't be playing RPGs. You should be playing Action games.

If only Morrowind wasn't in the first person and real time, and didn't play like an action game, maybe then people wouldn't ask themselves why they keep missing despite being right in the enemy's face.

If it's true that the defining trait of an RPG is being less than useless until you've spend hours fighting other useless things, it really shouldn't be difficult at all to name more than just Morrowind.

Again with this delusional fallacy.

I want something that actually makes sense. If the pointing and clicking to a monster is something you can control, then the fact that you hit an enemy should not be randomized. It's stupid and annoying.

top kek

Alright, have fun with your "the only RPG that actually exists by my narrow definition of what an RPG is", I think we're done here.

top kek

Holla Forums being contrarian and defending dice roll combat in a live action rpg.

It doesn't - I thought that's exactly what you and the other Skyrim kiddies are getting upset about.

Again, it's an abstraction you s'wit. It's like choosing your character's next action in a tabletop game - you're not actually the one who's skullfucking an orc with your magical longsword, it's the character that you're playing as. As I said before, if you want solid momentum based melee combat, go play Mount and Blade.

It's not realistic seeing the weapon connect yet getting a message that you missed.

I'm sorry but the way Morrowind handled combat is very poorly implemented.

It actually does. Only difference is that stats determine your chance to hit despite the player clearly seeing their character's blow connect with the enemy.

It's a shit way to handle it and anyone that defends it just ends up looking stupid.

This thread in a nutshell

The perspective has no bearing at all. It's an RPG if it's first person, top down, third person, text-based, or literally just make believe at a table. The core mechanic of "roleplaying" does not change one bit. Without these kinds of mechanics and rules you no longer have a structured game, but instead have a bunch of children playing Cowboy's and Indians going:

This is why things like dicerolls and separation of character and player were invented and eventually grew into the RPG genre we know today. But instead of playing these RPGs correctly, you still have the child mindset.

When all the while you never even understood from the beginning that saying "I" while playing an RPG means "My Character".

Oh well

Again, just stop complaining about superior games just because you can only handle action games.

...

Just because you're standing right in front of someone doesnt mean you'll hit it.
You need to go to a firing range or sparring with no previous experience if you believe swinging / firing a weapon on the general direction of a target means you'll always hit

Fixed.

Oh, and that's another thing, Morrowind basically encourages you to engage in endless tedium to grind your skills to an acceptable level, since some genius at Bethesda figured that it was a good idea to allow player to raise their skills by performing actions associated with said skill.

It actually does. STALKER does something similar on any difficulty below Master, bullets just fucking disappear before hitting the enemy. It's why everyone tells you to only play on Master.

It's a shit mechanic there, it's a shit mechanic in Morrowind.

Look, you autistic fuckwit, I know full well what RPGs are and how they should play. Clearly Bethesda didn't understand why better developers such as Black Isle used the isometric perspective.

11/10, best combat system ever.

So, after the umpteenth time of me saying, you finally understand that it's an abstraction and not a direct representation. Glad I could make you see :^)

Aye. ITT:

STALKER is not and never has been an RPG. What you're saying is

And now people are literally mentioning FPS (action) games and then goes on to say he is a high authority on RPGs

Are you talking about Morrowind or Final Fantasy or some other RPG?

It's terrible period. It's fucking inexcusable. It's like if you were playing D&D with only coin flips.

weapon proficiency, kid.

You forgot crafting magick.

...

It's the same shit mechanic. STALKER players understand it's shit, it comes as no surprise that people used to slurping Bethesda's shit don't understand it.

It's the same exact mechanic. You are missing the enemy because or arbitrary RNG bullshit despite being clearly able to tell you should have hit.

Not my fault you're so deep up Todd's rectum you have to defend shit gameplay mechanics.

Make up your mind already.

It's alright, we won't judge you if you just come out and say that having to actually plan your character caught you off guard for once. I'm sure many of us can relate :^)

did you build your character correctly?
did you choose the correct weapon to attack with?
what kind of enemy are we talking about here?
please report back to me as soon as you can so i can make your morrowind experience as enjoyable as possible!

The fuck am I reading. You have no fucking idea what forking is and no, the creation engine wasn't a thing before Skyrim, so they can't put things into something that doesn't exist.
Creation engine is just an updated GameBryo made by Bethesda using the modified base they made for their games.

He is not entirely wrong about the engine not handling all the shit the retards behind Skywind are trying to shove in, they are pushing the cells to the limit and the mod apparently runs like ass.

You're a fucking retard.

Yeah, I did.

I didn't say the first one numb nuts. We have IDs for a reason.

For what purpose? You can just grind your skill up to godhood by doing the same repetitive actions over and over again.

There is no reason not to actually.

Once again:

Ayy lmao
AYY LMAO

And you fuckwits still don't understand.

You can't have first person, real time combat with swings and hit detection and then bolt dice rolls on top of it.

It's a shit mechanic and you are dumb fanboys for defending it.

I wish I had this autism

You forgot fatigue, it matters with all skills. Low fatigue and you will fuck up in combat and all other things. Try crafting potions with low ass fatigue.
Most retards don't understand this.

My bad.

Are these Skyrim defenders some sort of reverse trolling or actual angsty redditors?

Tell me something i didn't already know. I probably have 2000 hours logged in it.

Clearly WE can.
Your action game kiddie mind can't handle it though.

Is Morrowind combat not real time? Is it not in the first person? Do you not perform different moves based on your button inputs?

How is this any different from, say, Dark Messiah, other than Dark Messiah not fucking with you?

Pathetic.

Nobody here even praised Skyrim you fucking idiot.

Dark Messiah is actually good game, unlike morrowalk.

Pathetic.

...

...

Dark Messiah is Action/Adventure with RPG elements

In that case I apologise for that exact point, but the rest still stand. It's an RPG abstraction, not an action game fighting system.

So you don't need to grind your skills up by doing the same repetitive actions over and over again. Either way, what do you expect to happen if you practice something over a long period of time? I don't understand your argument here.

It's an abstraction you dolt. Choosing where to swing is mechanically the same as choosing your character's next action in a tabletop game. It's not built to be an action game.
How many times do I need to say this?

Holy shit, I think we've reached the pinnacle of casualisation. Todd Howard is busting a nut as we speak.

That's a strawman. Not an ad hominem. Try again. I know you can do it!

Just so you know, in real life, missing edge alignment with a sword can mean not cutting shit, slightly moving your body out of the direct way of a blunt weapon blow can make you get away from it without getting harmed. Not to mention the whole idea of having stats and the "miss" when you actually see the attack connecting with the target was a way to portrait dodging and other variables of combat that couldn't be shown properly in game due to animation limitations.

Most likely the later. this board is filled with redditors and Skyrim is their favorite "RPG"… or so it seems, they are even exited about the re-release with broken light effects and -likely- poorly adjusted PBR textures.

Did you even read what i liked about Morrowind? It has a lot going for it except the combat, stamina, and magicka regen systems.

What does that have to do with casualisation of combat exactly?

So is Morrowind then.

It negates any need to think about character build since you can just grind.

In Fallout you simply cannot become a god at everything, there are not enough skill points to go around.

Okay.

What has real life to do with anything you fuckwit?

lel

Morrowind combat is just grinding the relevant stats up and then hugging an enemy and bashing the attack button.

Very deep.

Nothing, because in all ES games your character is a God no matter what by no later than level 30.

It's just more pronounced in Morrowind.

Now you just need to prove that Morrowind is an action game and not an RPG and you can make that argument.

But first you need to prove that Morrowind is not an RPG.

More importantly than this, i heard the guys behind Nehrim made a couple Morrowind total conversions, are they any good?
I heard about Artkwend but there seems to be two.

Dark Messiah and Morrowind combat are so different it leads me to believe you haven't actually played either

They are but as far as I remember they are only in German.

Its incredible how common this is. Almost frightening.

Or, and this might be a little hard for you to understand, if you make your character properly you won't need to grind. Stop churning out Bosmer barbarians and wondering why you can't clear out a bandit camp with destruction magic.

Again, I thought the whole reason you're getting upset over Morrowind is that it's not Dark Messiah type combat. Are you seriously that unable to separate the image of first person melee combat with instant gratification?

See the second point of . I'm sick of repeating myself.

Well, you aim at the enemy and click, right? Close enough.

As long as you have built a character to use some weapons, at level 1 you might miss a few times, but not 99%.

You might as well just make it a Holla Forums derail. They're not reading what they reply to anyway. You could just go "jews are aliums out to conquer the earth we must kill them all" and they'd respond with some asinine "BUT ITS DARK MESSIAH COMBAT" back at your face.

I'm starting to think "muh miss" shitters are just baiting.

It's also 10 years younger.

What a fucking achievement.
Morrowindfags are the ff7fags of the west.

How does that matter?

Real life representation is the reason behind RNG, you're adding the incontrolable variable of the unexpected and all the things a game can't/couldn't portrait on the fly. I don't know if you have ever been on a fist fight, but you don't always deliver "damage", even if your fist "connects" with the face of the guy, he might be moving backward and go about unaffected. Shit is even worse with bladed weapons, even a piece of fabric and an slightly misaligned blade can be enough to keep your from cutting shit. The stat based mechanism also forces you to put more thought before and during combat, instead of just spamming left click and moving back and forth from your target.

I can already tell you're only here because you were banned from reddit.

The ability to chop, slash and thrust using movement keys and holding down buttons makes no sense in a game built around dice rolls. The insentive to use different attacks should be the difference in their speed and damage output, however speed barely matters in morrowind since your chances of hitting an enemy are not determined by your own skill, but by chance. As a result you end up using the fastest attack many times hoping to hit more than you miss. However, fatigue loss during combat makes it so that the longer you fight the less likely you are to hit.
Such system also fucks over anybody who wants to play a ranged character. Throwing stars are fucking useless, you are just wasting them and will probably never hit.
Such system also limits the player in classes greatly. If you don't want to miss half the time for the first five hours then you play a dunmer or a nord. If you choose a different class you are playing the game wrong and will probably get your shit pushed in.
and speaking of realism, it doesn't take much to stab an unarmed woman wearing plain clothes in a gut with a kitchen knife, humans are pretty big targets. The people who can actually evade attacks properly have recieved special training in martial arts or fencing. The idea that hitting a man is hard is pretty ridiculous.

…do i really have to answer?
It came out 10 years later.

Against a mudcrab.

For the first 20 skill levels.

If you've chosen the appropriate primary skill, race, gender, birth sign and what else have you, and you've boosted that skill to 40-50 at level 1.

Bethesdrones, everyone.

Hard to be banned from somewhere you never went. Projecting much?
I actually came into this thread because people are talking about how good of an rpg morrowind is, and it's a fucking doozy.

But how does that matter in terms of it being a better/worse rpg? Because as far as I'm concerned, a game being older has a higher chance of being a good rpg than a new one does.

No I didn't read your post because you fucks don't read our posts.

DARK MESSIAH CAME 4 YEARS AFTER MORROWIND

In rpgs they do, but in reverse.

Wew lad

Technology progressed, that's about it.
I believe the devs behind Dragon's Dogma put as much love into it as Bethesda did with Morrowind, they simply had better tools to work with.

top kek

Alright.

Rpg can rely on stats and dice rolls, and be great at it. However, in such rpgs you are usually given a percentage to hit, so you can decide your options for yourself, i.e. the fallout games. Morrowind doesn't have that, and the only way to guess if the enemy is agile enough for you to miss him is to try and hit him. It is not tactical at all, and the end result of it is a player just constantly swinging a sword around hoping to get a hit.

But you talked about DD being newer than morrowind as if being a newer game does rpgs and their mechanics and systems any favour.

Okay.

Shit, Dragon's Dogma is a near perfect game. If it wasn't for Skyshit release date competition, it wouldn't have been as rushed as it was and some areas would have been more fleshed out.

See

...

Or, and think about it for a moment here, it's just one of the easier aspects of combat to portray out of an abstracted form.

Pray tell, what is so hard to accept about a character of a certain race using a weapon that he's naturally more proficient with? Why are you expecting that some random prisoner who's been at sea for the last god knows how long will already be a master of every manner of arm? If you want skill based melee combat, go play Mount and Blade.

Stop implying you can't merge both of these elements together while still maintaining strong role play elements.

It does for two reasons:
Remember Morrowind was pretty much a pioneer for the open world 3d genre, it did many new things.
Dragon's Dogma is just a very nice mix of Dark Soul combat with a pinch of Shadow of the Colossus and an Oblivion kind of worldbuilding (centralized on the main city, with caves and small forts scattered around)

So not an RPG. Just an action game with role play elements. Like Dark Messiah.

How is morrowind an rpg but DM isn't?

In a game with breakable equipment and the very real possibility of your shit breaking and being stranded in the middle of nowhere with a weapon you aren't proficient in, at the very fucking least, you should know how to hit an enemy with a wakizashi if you're proficient in longswords.

The combat system is fucking stupid. Nobody is saying it needs to be as dumbed down as skyshit, just that it doesn't need dice rolls where it clearly isn't needed.

You mean like Morrowind, right?

Because, outside of the to hit chance it plays almost exactly like an action game.

Because they say so, obviously. The only way an RPG can be an RPG is if it abstracts only certain aspects, but not others.

In other words, their definition of what an RPG is is a valid one because they are in too deep to admit Morrowind has any faults whatsoever.

Dark Messiah has no role playing elements outside of a few inconsequential gameplay choices.

d6d576 has been telling you exactly why its not an action game in any way. Ignoring his arguments and evidence doesn't make them go away.

Ok I'll bite, what do you consider an RPG?

Sorry, I am a bit bad with english.

That's really nice, but what I am saying is that something like thrust has no place in the game since it's fucking useless. You have better chances to hit if you just chop constantly.
When I first played Morrowind I honestly thought differen hits did something, but they actually made barely any difference and it was much easier to just mindlessly left click on an enemy until it dies while chugging potions. It is not a good combat system because the outcome of a fight is predetermined either on combination of your stats or your amount of potions. If it had to be this way I wish the game didn't pretend to be something else and just didn't show me the animations.

...

There was a strong emphasis on merging both while still maintaining the role play, nice try using on point in my post to dismiss my whole post. you act as if you get to draw the line of what a Role play is and then you imply that the only way to have first person combat is to use player stats and skills to force the player character to miss within combat as a way to show the characters own lack of ability.

Never ever, too many drama queens, attention whores, and egotistical pricks on that project, even fucking Enderal came out with BOTH German and English dubs than that future trainwreck.

Excuse me? Stealth alone allows you to finish levels without fighting anyone.
How is that inconsequential?

So, you want the combat to be more like a shooter or something?

It is though.

You're spending the entire thread defending what works wonderfully in a turn based rpg combat system…. For a live action rpg

Well, you idiots love to play this game where you mention abstractions, but Morrowind combat is not all abstraction, is it now?

It actually also relies on the player's twitch reflexes. Dark Messiah also has elements of the combat that are tied to stats, so basically what you're doing is setting up an arbitrary degree of abstraction a game needs to adhere to to be defined as an RPG so you can "win" this argument and pretend Morrowind combat isn't dogshit.

Is Deus Ex not an RPG? What makes it different from Morrowind?

I consider Fallout an RPG. The combat is shit, but the player's reflexes play no role in it, it's all purely down to stats and dice throws.

I was talking to one of the devs he sounded happy about the project, but maybe he was just really wide eyed, not that I care for Skywind on any level, maybe pilfering it's assets for use in OpenMW.

You dense fuck. When you disregard RPG in a game, of course you're left with action game and that's exactly what you're doing.
This is your argument. Idiot.

So, whenever you see someone you instantly know how skilled they are at fighting and how likely you are to successfully strike them, right? You should take up HEMA.

Or, instead of butchering the abstraction entirely, there could be a baseline "melee skill" stat that goes up as you become more proficient with any of the given types of arm. Vid related.
I'm not trying to argue that Morrowind is perfect, but you bitching about the concept of dice-roll abstractions as a whole just shows how impatient and unimaginative you are, as well as ignorant of actual fighting.

I'm going to give you a moment or two to stop and think as to why early games were turn based rather than real time, and why many still are. I'll give you a hint: accurate simulations are hard to make.

I'm not part of this enemy group you think you're fighting against bud

I do get to draw the line because it has a clear definition.

Role playing is you determining a role for your character and playing it out. Not only through the skill sets, but also the choices and the dialogue you choose to go through and the personal stories you create.

Emphasis on you creating the character and the character not being on a set linear path.

top kek

You've literally been explained that it is abstraction, how it is an abstraction and why it is an abstraction for the most of this thread. You're fucking autistic.

Top kek indeed, as with all morrowfags

no it doesn't.

It would certainly suit the way Morrowind presents itself better, yes. And the discussion isn't about FPS specifically, but action games in general.

Call me a casual all you fucking want, it doesn't change the simple fact that Morrowind handles badly in combat situations.

Would you dislike the game if the combat was more like Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls?

That's nice, why don't you respond with an actual argument next?

...

And here we go. He admits he wants instant gratification like Skyrim and hates RPGs. Like we've been telling him the entire thread.

I want the different abilities in the game to do something, other than just being the same shit. I want to be an active participant in combat. I want the combat to actually involve me doing shit other than mindlessly pressing left mouse button and chugging fatigue and health potions. It's just fucking boring, and incidentally it is a major part of the game.

You could come up with a fucking magical excuse for that, appraisal skills or other shit. As it is the combat in morrowind involves you hitting an enemy until either you or him dies from lack of potions, and then reload and get more potions.

Lets do some math.

Against a mudcrab, fresh off the boat with no skill in anything and base stats:

Well would you look at that, doesn't look like 1% to me at all. That's level 5 Short Blade, 30 Agility, 30 Luck, and 100 fatigue. BUT WAIT. You're a retard so let's pretend you have 0 fatigue.

Well that's a little lower, but we still haven't hit 1% yet. How can we do even worse than you? What if we got cursed and had damaged Luck and Agility below the base stats? At this point you have to actively TRY to be this bad because there's no easy way for a new character to get their Agility and Luck damaged and brought down to 0.

Now let's assume you're not retarded and made a Thief with Short Blade as a Major skill.

That's right, you press buttons and you have FPV, that means they are the same game. I like Gone Home combat better though, now that's a fine RPG.

That's actually pretty spot on. The examples of action melee combat at the time were pretty hit or miss in terms of quality and consistency. Real action got better over the years while pure/purish RPG gameplay was already at the top of its development.

Have you ever played Daggerfall? Morrowind's combat system is built on top of that. It's not a live action RPG, but it isn't turn based either, just a FPV RPG, not that hard to understand, not all the RPGs are turn based.

Who the fuck cares. Make it fun.

Dragon's Dogma did it right.

Anyway saying that because it's an old game isn't a fucking excuse for the shit combat system it has. OoT has a better fucking combat system for crying loudly outwards.

Nigger you need to take a breather before you have a heart attack. I'm not arguing anything nor have I called you a casual, turn off your presecution complex for a moment. I asked you a question, I haven't argued anything this entire thread. Again, I'm not part of your boogeyman enemy

Git gud.

I really liked how the game clearly gave me that formula instead of leaving me in the blind to guess what my hit chance is.

But there is no itting gud since combat is barely gameplay.

So you want an action game, and you want the PC to be a Mary Sue.

Glad I can stop responding to this thread here.

Honestly? I don't care anymore. Enderal is giving me plenty to do. Sure some of the voice acting sucks, and the random German being thrown in is pure cringe, but at least it's a whole lot of new. Fuck Skywind.

This user gets it

OpwnMW is fucking trash and is poorly optimized so it's max settings look like an xbox 360 game but use as much as my resources running a fucking total war game on ultra

Plus Morrowind's only greatness is the lore and setting the created, other than that you can't honestly say it's good other than being babby's first RPG

Yeah, it's a mutated abortion that has none of the benefits and all of the disadvantages of both.

that feeling when you accidentally start a fire and come back to find everyone's house in your street burned to the ground.

Me about this thread right now. Really sorry I thought I was creating constructive discussion, not MUH SKYREMS COMBUT WAZ BUTTER.

Any benefit Skyrim added can easily be ported to OpenMW, that was the entire bloody idea of it being open source.. idiots. You're getting the benefits of each game minus the shit.

Without ever looking that up the game told me:

Literally the only one that wasn't made clear in-game is the Fortify Attack spell effect.

Low effort shitpost.

Never touched Morrowind before 2012.

We need to archive this thread for the future so every time someone mentions Morrowind miss chance we can point to this and tell them they're a fucking underage FPS kiddie who needs to fuck off and stop going near any RPG.

archive.is/jZAdG

Congratulations Skyrim kiddies you made history. You finally proved that anyone who cries about Morrowind hates RPGs.

I dunno, if you play it using two brain cells your ranged characters become viable.

However, the scale of each wasn't explained. It was vague as shit.

That's assuming anyone actually gives enough of a shit to bother with it.

So far I'm not seeing much enthusiasm in the mod community.

So Morrowind is an RPG because the game take control out of your hand and forces to hit stats on you for no particularly good reason. Okay.

Seriously? Tell me how.

Nice digits, have a fun time playing your shit game with a shitty, inexcusably bad combat system, while convincing yourself it isn't an action rpg because of the dice roll combat that can literally be modded out of the game with zero consequence to endgame material.

Morrowind is a shit rpg, fam.

Subjective, therefore, not an argument.

But that's wrong, there is plenty of variables to consider, preparation before battle and character building is also gameplay, specially on an RPG.

Do you also complain that PnP games are shit because you don't determine your hit chance by fucking sparring with your DM?

Great your definition doesn't say anything about enforcing a chance to hit as as the only way to express character stats and skills in combat, and don't try to argue that an individual player's skill enhancing the player characters success in combat goes against the grain of a role play, the player will always have ways to gain advantage even within a rigid role play system the player character can never have had, playing tactically beyond a stupid characters own ability, knowing the locations of high quality loot or optimal outcomes of dialogue choices, or being able to read the games systems far clearer than the player's character ever could. Player skill will always come into play, and this is true with tabletop as well.

Reading comprehension skill check failed. You missed.

yeah the bethesda community is half likely to fuck everything up. meh

Just spam health potions. Nothing can touch you.

Morrowind is a game that is hilariously easy to break with almost zero effort involved.

PnP games don't feature real time combat from the first person you fucking idiot.

Yes, actually, that's one of the core features of RPGs. You have no idea how it's really going to turn out because there's an element of unpredictable luck involved in everything your character does, and you're expected as a non-retarded roleplayer to fucking roll with it and be able to cope with unpredictable and unexpected situations. That's how RPGs keep themselves varied and interesting and what elevates them from being mindless action.

Wouldn't it make more sense to import HD assets into OpenMW than to try to remake the game in the Skyrim engine?

But why is the chance to hit the only way, why can't you express this in other ways, it is you who decides that chance to hit must be the only way this can be done and it is you who is missing the point.

You mean either levelling up until you can definitely hit an enemy most of the time or chugging potions like a madman.
What moves you do in combat matters very little.

DD is objectively more fun than Morrowind tho.

Morrowind requires 20-50 mods to even be playable. DD can be fully enjoyed even without the DLC.

You're just placeboing yourself then, "EVERYONE CAN'T BE WRONG IT'S A MASTERPIECE!!!".

When I played it last year, I only got 2 hours in before realizing that it was the biggest fucking dumpster ever, if that was hyped like it was and released this year, I guarantee you everyone would shit on it harder than no man's sky. It was a good game for 2002, but not 2016, it's aged and other games do the same things better

I'm pretty sure they tried, the engine fucking sucks and is hardly moddable, and they can't expand upon it too much. That's why they stopped doing that whole morrowind mainland project.

Exanima does this a thousand times better with virtually no skills or level bullshit.

Uncertainty and randomness is created simply by the fact the game is in real time.

Did you feel euphoric when you typed that out?

What do all Morrwind fuckwits like you think you are something special? Do you think everyone criticizing the shit combat isn't an RPG player?

What, we are allowed to do so when it comes to PST, Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, etc., but not for your Mary Sue game?

Go fuck yourself. I'm done with you clowns.

Morrowind doesn't go well with graphical mods. It starts chugging if you update most of the textures.

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Of course, the player is there to determine the strategy (besides what you do out of combat, be it before or after battle), not to enhance the combat capabilities of the character. You're not some warrior spirit taking control over the character, you're just commanding his actions, the character capabilities are unalterable.

Any sandbox game is breakable, at least the good ones.

I have no idea what DD has to do with an RPG. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Also
Not an argument.

You've proven time and time again that you're literally not an RPG player and want Morrowind to be like an action FPS like STALKER.

Say, you know what else has random dice rolls and hit % chances? That's right! All of those!

Reading context user, I'm saying you're placeboing yourself, then proceeding to say that everyone can't be wrong therefore it's a masterpiece

Either way it's shit, their combat fucking sucks, stabbing a guy in the face then playing it off as you're not proficient does not fly, just bundle the game up as a turn based game, there's plenty of them out there that are phenomenal, instead Morrowind bundled it up as openworld action rpg with turn based combat, which is well stupid. There's so many things I can point out that other anons have already pointed out, why do you niggers have to be so delusional

So, unlike Morrowind, okay.

Yet the character's ability to dodge an attack is directly related to a player's reflexes and spatial awareness. Ergo, Morrowind is not an RPG.

Bravo, what a fucking argument. I almost feel like clapping at the sheer idiocy. You fuckwits are grasping at straws now. Since all other sandbox games are shit it's okay for Morrowind to be shit too.

Marvelous, simply marvelous.

And keep saging like a bitch, it changes nothing.

To hit, you need a few things.
So, what you do is this: Make a character whose main skills are:
The rest is up to you.
Then choose The lover as your birthsign, since that gives your n'wah ass +25 agility.
Permanently.
Next step is to buy a bow and a bunch of arrows, keep your stamina bar full by not autismstomping everywhere and go hunting some mudcrabs like the newly arrived bum you are.

OpenMW development moves too slowly and lacks significant features that Skyrim's engine already has, and OpeMW requires skilled coders to get these features, Skywind requires things abundant in the Skyrim community. Also Skyrim is like real popular so people just want to wrap things around that.

But In Morrowind you already have the ability to control the outcome of combat by doing things like walking backwards to dodge hits, or through things like stealth attacks or using traps to your advantage, or even the use of walls or other obstacles or positions where melee characters can't get to you, you always have the ability to attain a combat and other advantages as the player.

But neither of those mix random dice rolls with action game mechanics.

Rookie mistake.

holy shit user, MAYBE, and stay with me here, MAYBE he actually liked the game?

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Yeah, see, that is the problem I had. Getting the stats, a bow and arrows are not as much of a problem as losing all your fucking arrows to hit chances, and using alchemy is pretty much willingly breaking the game.

What has that to do with the fact the combat is shit?

I enjoy Fallout and Bloodlines, I don't go around pretending the combat is good, despite Fallout being more of an RPG than Morrowind will ever be.

And that has what exactly to do with the argument that the game has horrible combat mechanics?

Really? I always thought the purpose of OpenMW was to fix up and modernize the engine. Not just to a 1:1 recreation of it and not address any of its problems.

All different than morrowind.

It's one or the other, either way, the game is bad, there's plenty of glaring faults in it from shitty graphics to shitty mechanics, the only saving grace is its world building and lore, but guess what I read that online so playing that game is fucking useless.

I think this is where the old saying "you have shit taste" comes into play

It's just autism for the sake of autism. Basically like everything else that is related to Bethesda.

OpenMW is just the engine, you gotta bring the textures yourself.

Morrowind came out in 2002, and is nowhere near the level of simulation that Exanima is. Exanima came out in 2015, and it's still shit.

None of us are implying that action games are complete shit you colossal sperg, we're saying that you shouldn't expect Morrowind to play like one.

You've just outed yourself as never having played Morrowind before.

I literally explained this over an hour ago in .
That you see part of the action taking place doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally the same thing as choosing what happens next, just that the world isn't paused until you decide.

Well, I recently tried downloading a fuckton of graphical mods for it and ended up with 15fps. Some mods that change Vivec also make the game run worse. That's just how things are.

you act like it's fair game to shit on these games, but I guarantee if you go into a thread about one of these games and say "the combat is shit", people will react the same way they are reacting now.

this is great

Actually it kind of is. The idea is to keep the vanilla game as much as possible while making the underlying framework less buggy, less prone to crashing, and be overall more deeply expandable by modders…but not to actually add in any mods or extra features or anything like that.

You're a disgrace to snek fags everywhere.

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About as much as Diablo does - you just need to move your mouse over the thing you want to interact with and click. It can barely be considered a skill tested by the game, unlike games like Dark Messiah or Mountain Blade where the mechanics of combat interactions are designed to involve the player's action skill in the decisions more. Hell, I'd say even Diablo is more action-based than Morrowind, if only because it has less focus on role-playing.

What Morrowind primarily tests you on, like an every other RPG should, is how you manage your character's development. Your decision-making in following interactions (dialogue, combat, etc) is mostly informed by that development and the ability of the character, not by the reflex and motor ability of the player.

How are your actions enhancing the combat capabilities of your character on Morrowind?

That's not dodging, that's deciding to engage or putting distance. It's tactics, not reflex based skills.

I didn't say it was ok, just implied it is something to be expected on a sandbox game.
The whole game is filled with flaws and some game design mistakes.

Was meant for

That was the whole point of not having a turn based RPG.

It's about having a modern engine and, more importantly, improved and extended SDK.
Shit is still far from complete though, specially the SDK side. I have hope for it.

It has at least more good than bad compared to Skyrim.

So? Doom came out before it and has plenty of randomness and chance to it.

It's one of the advantages of having the game be in real time.

Well argued. Truly, I expected nothing less from a Bethesda shit slurper.

And all I'm saying is that Morrowind plays like shit.

And you can completely circumvent them as said. The game allows the player, not the character, to attain advantages by exploiting the environment and the real time mechanics, shit that is completely unrelated to the character itself.

Mate, I understand you Bethesda fans are of limited intelligence, but you won't meet a single FO or Bloodlines fan that praises the games for their combat.

Now go be an uneducated idiot someplace else, RPG fans are talking.

Maybe if you've read the conversation going on, which you didn't, you would have read I played 2 hours before realizing it's a big fat ball of shit

I have good taste, so I don't waste my time with garbage user, this is why I have to shit on their opinions

There's literally like 5 voice actors doing the whole game, which I don't really mind, but still, you can't honestly say it's better than Skyrim's

It's better than Skyrim's

Nobody gives a flying fuck about VA. This conversation assumes you can play either game deaf.

That said, i agree. What little VA Morrowind had was better than all the VA skyshit had.

wew

I'm done.

Really? All I see is an FPS fan angry about RPGs.

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you realize nearly every Fallout fan wants another turn-based isometric Fallout game, right? You know there are people who played the original two games and liked the combat, right?

Have you ever thought that maybe you just don't like the games you claim you do?

let me guess, you had to stop because it was your bedtime?

Tbh fam i don't think you're qualified enough to shitpost about Morrowind. I literally have over 2000 hours logged.

Not shit you inbred idiot. They want it isometric specifically because that's how you can role play, instead of the dogshit gameplay of FO3, which is basically a TES game with guns.

Some people like eating shit too, doesn't mean feces are delicious.

I like the games just fine, I also posses the emotional maturity to acknowledge they have (glaring) flaws that should have been worked on better.

You've finally reached the point where you're no longer willing to tangle with the actual points presented and instead resort to shitposting.

BRAVO user
R
A
V
O

==A
N
O
N

For lore, but that's about it, the combat systems is, let's take a deep breath before your blood pressure goes up, "better" than morrowinds crappy system. Plus there's at least 500 mods that can run on the game to make a very enjoyable experience. What's morrowind really have on that? Oh clunky ass OpenMW that looks like a beginner modded Oblivion textures, and then what else again???

At least you can mod the shit out of skyrim, morrowind on the other hand, you have to play with that and shovel it down

hehe you guess it right user

Time well spent.

So, you're saying that Deus Ex and Dark Messiah are RPGs?

yes you clearly have a lot of emotional maturity, you've spent 23 posts complaining that people like a game that you do not.

Did you miss the part where I said Diablo focus just as much on role-playing as its action while Morrowind focuses much more on role-playing mechanics than it's very shallow action mechanics? Yeah, Diablo is an Action-RPG because it's just as much an action game as it is an RPG. However, Morrowind is much more RPG than it is an action game, to the point where the action mechanics have little to no bearing on the game's challenge.

It is called action because it isn't turn based, it is not an action game in the same way as Dark Messiah or Dragon's Dogma. You need to stop being an underage piece of shit and take into consideration what was the norm on RPGs at the time and why they would call Diablo an Action RPG.
Modern "Action RPG" are action games with RPG elements (mostly limited to leveling up and having gear to chose) while combat is easily over 50% determine by the player's reflex and eye-hand coordination, etc. That's nothing like Diablo or Morrowind that were consider "action" because there were no turns.

This has already been addressed

I don't need to spend 83 days to figure out something is bad, just like we don't need to discover half the universe on no man's sky to really give the jury their answer of is it actually bad?

If the problems are glaring at the beginning those will persist until it's over, which I decided rather promptly. The only thing I can say I truly like about the game was the sound the silt striders made

Guess I won this argument.

It's indefensible.

Your best defense is that it's an abstraction and a relic of classical rpg combat.

Which is a fine opinion. If we were talking about a turn based rpg, or even daggerfall.

But we're taking about a 2002 game. Where something like Zelda has a better melee combat system.

It's completely embarrassing and inexcusable.

Morrowind has no challenge to it, just like every other Bethesda game.

But, from what I gather you're basically agreeing with me, Morrowind combat is shit and other RPGs have done it better.

Okay.

Just teasing, fam

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Morrowind is the direct sequel to Daggerfall, you fuckstick. The entire system of TES combat has just been progressively more and more watered down PnP abstraction for each game.

Actually Skyrim has more than 80 voice actors, it's biggest issue is that many characters are only semi generic so you hear the same voice over and over, New Vegas sidestepped this by making generic characters actually generic and making non generic characters very interesting with lots of dialogue. The generic characters also have the same lines recorded by multiple people to soften the blow of hearing the same faggot tell you about wanting a fucking nuclear winter holy shit.

Also it doesn't help that New Vegas has individual characters with more well written lines than Bethesda have ever had across their entire libeary.

you had resorted to shitflinging when I got in here, buddy. I just came here to laugh at you, but please keep going, I'm interested to see what you'll come up with next

Games before and after it have done it better.

I still marvel at the sheer fanatical autism that doesn't allow you to admit the gameplay has flaws just like with every other game.

Oh, my sweet summer child, I hurl abuse at you and then follow it by making a point.

Just spregging out and throwing a tantrum basically tells me you have fuckall intelligent left to say, therefore I win by default.

Is this the most euphoric post you've made in awhile?

Keep it up, mad man, we might be working on quite the screencap here!

Well… Yeah, pretty much.

It was lazy then and completely inexcusable now.

Imagine if something as lazy as the Morrowind combat system came out today? Day one steam refunds on a mass scale.

So it's shit combat made even more shit. Okay.

Pick one you fucktard.

Did anyone say that?

Everyone arguing against you clowns has been saying the combat is flawed and that the game is easy to break, lacking in proper balance and challenge.

None of these are untrue claims.

Roll based RPGs are coming out every year, faggot. You just admited you don't play RPGs.

If you're an IGN babby or a steam console faggot.

Those can be mutual you know, something riddled with flaws is typically utter shit

Zelda games and Morrowind aren't even remotely similar. Morrowind is more like Daggerfall, like Grid based FPV RPGs without the Grid, being able to move back and forth was almost irrelevant.

Also

It is flawed, sure, but comparing it with shit that has nothing to do with it is stupid and so were almost all the arguments against it. People that don't understand what an RPG is meant to be are complaining about the RPG elements of an RPG game.

Tbh it was fun when i was 15

Now in retrospect, i realize it was a broken, shitty game with shitty combat.

there's that boogeyman again
nah, you have retards claiming the game isn't an rpg in the same breath

Morrowind isn't roll based. It's roll based + player's reflexes.

Where?
You walk up to an enemy and press button for attack. You can maybe dodge a spell from fifty meters away.

The number of people complaining about "MISS MISS MISS" seems to speak to the contrary.
No, I'm saying that it's combat is simply just another interaction to test your ability to build your character and not a test of player reflexes or motor skills like an action game would.

The player's reflexes in Morrowind serve the same purpose as calling your next action in PnP games. If you seriously believe that aiming in Morrowind is some kind of skill check, it's a miracle you figured out how to turn on your computer.

If it was just about the management of a character then combat would be hands off, but even then that's not the point I'm going to make, you talk as if motor skills and reflexes don't come into play but they do, the player who can react faster to traps and enemies or even spot hiding enemies and traps will still hold the advantage against the character that does, possibly even an advantage that the player's own character doesn't have, in traditional RPGS like Baldur's gate this is done by a skill check in Morrowind you can spot these things on your own, stop trying to imply that a game that takes different parts of different games and meshes them together must obey by the rules of only one fragment of it's being so rigidly.

Name a single roll based live action rpg with gameplay comparable to Morrowind that came out in the last 5 years.

So, the combat is just hugging the enemy, spamming the attack button and chugging health potions until your or his bar drops to zero.

So deep.

Dark Messiah has better combat. RPGs before and after it have better combat.

I understand what an RPG is just fine, that has nothing to do with the fact the combat in Morrowind is shit.

Then why's it built as an action game? That's a glaring problem user

They should have thought out something like final fantasy 13 combat if they wanted to play it like that

Again, Dark messiah and Morrowind have vastly different combat

Holy shit!

Yet the game uses dice rolls to determine your to hit chance.

Is your brain overheating from spregging too much perhaps?

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Are we reaching a newfag singularity?

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Have you actually played the game for more than 15 minutes?

Dark Messiah is not the same kind of game as Morrowind, are you stupid?

And the combat in PnP is just rolling dice, but I don't see you complaining about that.
The player's skill in Morrowind serves the same purpose as calling your next action in PnP games. You've been told this repeatedly.

You my friend just rolled a 0 on your reading comprehension check.

Yeah, one of them is actually good.

Age of Decadence, Conquistador etc

By all means, explain how it's not.

The only difference is that Morrowind fucks with the to hit chance of the player in the name of pointless "abstraction".

Irrelevant, comparing combat in different genres is pointless

morrowind sucks
but oblivion sucks more

Bethesda fans everyone.

Dark Messiah has action combat.
Morrowind has RPG combat.

Yeah those games sure do resemble Morrowind.

Retard.

Are they different?

Kys

user…. user those are isometric games, morrowind is not

Well, yeah. They're all traditional RPGs.

Again, traditional RPGs with numbers.

TES isn't an action game. See .

No they're the exact same. After all, they both have dice rolls

Dey has character stats dey da same

They're completely different kinds of RPG you fucknut. Traditional or not.

It is real time, like DM, stats determine damage dealt, like DM, it relies on button inputs to execute specific attack commands (stabbing, slashing, etc.), players can dodge blows by simply moving out of the way, like DM.

The only difference is that Morrowind has a to hit mechanic reliant on stats, while DM wisely does away with it.

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Well, you do improve your skills in DM.

I'll post like this user

Well shit fam u got me there

I guess ill go play exodus ultima since it has dice rolls, numbers, stats, weapons, armor, and magic just like Morrowind

You improve your skills in fucking bamham city, it doesn't mean they're the same genre

So what makes DM different from morrowind?

Don't forget to play Diablo, a gem among traditional RPGs.

What you meant to say

Morrowind is not an action game with RPG elements like TES games after III, Dark Messiah, DD and so on.

Holy fuck, you might as well have said
They are not even remotely the same thing or even a comparable one.

Yes, RPG can be real time, Morrowind wasn't the first one to do that.

And, unlike DM, stats also determine everything else,

Like every other game that isn't a movie.

Have you played the game? I would be hard-pressed to call that dodging. Movement doesn't play the same role as in DM.

Different genres with different game design decisions.

Read the thread

Not enough dice rolls newfag its a completely different genre

Yes, and the decision for the mechanics in Morrowind are shit ones.

No?
What if you consider walking an action?

So is Planescape. Traditional RPGs had both turn and real time combat, depending on the game.

This is literally "all people need to breathe" argument. All games use some kind of stats to calculate damage. Though Morrowind uses rolls to a large extent.

Why do you lie? You can also beat Souls games without dying on your first try. Technically.
Doesn't make it feasible. You can barely dodge anything in Morrowind. Combat is static and you can't dodge for shit because it wasn't built with that in mind.

Wow, you sure showed me user!

dark messiah is a first person action game

morrowind is a first person RPG

Because why?

Then that makes almost every game an action game and you a retard

Better yet go play poker online on facebook

You know all that stuff you criticize the core mechanics of Morrowind for? That's why Morrowind is an RPG.

You know all that cool swordplay and 1337 action in Messiah? That's what makes it an action game.

No, do you? Do you know what I'm even criticising morrowind for?

U herd it here first folks

That's more like it

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Then all the games are action games… well, maybe papers please isn't an action game… then again, stamping shit is an action, so I guess papers please can be compared to Dark Messiah too.

It isn't. It is an action RPG, which isn't (or wasn't) the same as an action game with RPG elements (which is what everyone seem to think Skyrim and Dark Messiah is).

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That has nothing to do with your argument. He was mocking you by implying that games like Morrowind are coming out all the time these days, and you reply with Fallout "clones".

Are you a retard or something?

So does Doom. Doom is also an RPG then.

I don't lie. You can game the game by simply abusing the movement mechanics. This is not even remotely like with true RPGs ala Fallout.

You're asking me to sum up your argument of 20 posts while you pretend you've made no argument. Fuck off.

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And we're back to them arbitrarily making up definitions to suit their needs.

Stop skewing the argument into something else.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_III:_Morrowind
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim
Daww

This means Morrowind isn't an rpg how?

But the thing is that he hasn't made an argument in those twenty posts. It's nothing but asking questions and saying Morrowind is shit without asking why.

Both flamethrowers and handguns use combustion to function, and they're both weapons. Does that mean that they're the same things?

and this proves dark messiah is not an action game primarily, how?

It's not arbitrary at all, the arguments for the classification were very well explained over and over again on this thread.

Are you mentally retarded?
He is pointing that out to you, the fact that plenty of games calculate damage in a variable way is the flaw on your argument that DM is an RPG because of that. DM is an action game with RPG elements, like Skyrim, but with much better combat.

Now back the definition with arguments to prove your point.

You retarded or what? For first, we're talking about damage calculation, not enemy AI. For second Morrowind uses such mechanics extensively to create an RPG game.

Translation: I'm able to trick NPC pathfinding to glitch the game meaning it's not an RPG

I'll concede that DM is an action game if you admit that skyrim and morrowind are the same genre.

I'm saying that taking out a core part of the combat and it still feeling like you've done nothing to it (with an endgame character) sort of defeats the argument that it isn't also an action game. Especially with skills like acrobatics that can make you fucking fly, basically.

skyrim and morrowind are the same genre, but on the spectrum between "pure RPG" and "action RPG", skyrim and morrowind are on near opposite ends. Skyrim is morrowind with the RPG elements dialed down and the action elements dialed slightly up.

That's not how arguments work, user.
DM is an action game with RPG elements, like Skyrim. Morrowind is a non-turn based FPV RPG, like Legend of Grimrock but without the grid.

T-too many e-engine differences. Skyshit i-is 4 newbz, Morrowind better

Being able to abuse the broken systems in this game don't make it a different genre of game

We are talking Morrowind here, kike.

Yeah, since "we" are using wikipedia and it doesn't say anything about morrowind and skyrim being on different spectrum I'm gonna call bs.

There you go, another admission that you don't actually like character progression and RPG mechanics. If you want a skill based game, stop shitting up TES threads and go play M&B or Dark Souls.

You've said that already, you didn't say why.

kek

I used wikipedia because I wanted to prove to people that haven't played both games that the two are different. To anyone who has played both Dark messiah and Morrowind, it's clear they aren't the same type of game.

Now you're just being coy and trying to wriggle away because I didn't answer the way you wanted. C'mon user-kun, don't be shy~

Yes, DM is good.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_III:_Morrowind

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim

Both Skyrim and Morrowind have shit combat, Morrowind heavily shittier

Both games can be severely broken due to ingame skill exploits

Both games have huge open worlds with interior cells

Both games have skill based combat damage, skyshit just simplified it

They're the same fucking genre

That isn't the argument

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From my own perspective, i played Morrowind for the first time months ago and it wasn't that bad. The combat looked kinda off, but since people told that you need to be skilled in a certain weapons to use them properly it became pretty easy after a few hours. I agree that the first hours into the game are pretty awfull since you always start with 20 to 40 in any weapon, also your stamina pretty low.

I found myself abusing the rest feature like a bazillon times for magic and stamina, to the point that most of the magic/stamina potions became useless. When it comes to the story and the lore, i liked most of the morrowind buldings and world structures, the lore is okay in my book but i don't know if the other TES game lores are that bad, like people keep saying that Oblivion and Skyrim main questlines are shit (Are they really that bad?) compared to the Morrowind lore. I read a few book but no all of them, some maybe is that.

Overall is a pretty decent game.

ok

Skyrim has no classes, no permanent birthsigns, virtually no racial differences, and literally no combat abstraction whatsoever, unless you go for the reddit-tier theory that the health bars are symbolic or some shit. That'd be like saying Mario Kart and Forza are the same thing because they both involve racing in automobiles.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong, numbnuts

oh cmon now user-kun you silly-willy, I mentioned they were the same genre in my earlier post, remember?

I said they were different because one had more of a focus on action than RPG elements. And you discounted that because you said wikipedia didn't support that theory!

Well as you can see, I have proven that even wikipedia makes a slight distinction between the games! Isn't that neat!

Not enough for them to be different genre's, oh no. But there are slightly different.

In one place they say they're different, in other they say they're not.
Maybe that's what you get for using wikipedia as your argument.

you and your friend both used the same articles as you argument as well! In fact, I got the links to these articles from your post trying to make the opposite argument!

I guess that makes both of us a little silly, huh user?

One is overarching, and one is more specific. Is that such a hard idea to grasp? Hell, I don't even think using wikipedia as an arbiter is a good idea to begin with.

Combat abstraction (whatever the fuck that even means) isn't even a positive if you consider Morrowind to have it and Skyrim not.

The fact Morrowind has starting classes is also pointless, considering you could make your own anyway. Shit, starting class has more sway on gameplay in fucking dark souls than it does in Morrowind.

Yeah okay racials and gender meant something in Morrowind. Skyrim dumbed a lot of shit down. We know.

Because the player skills are far more relevant on determining the outcome of combat. The skills of the character are the skills of the player, the input is far more direct and the stats are less relevant. On an RPG, the player is only commanding the action, determining the strategy: rather than having direct influence on the character's skills, you're taking decisions to follow the best course of action on the given situation and with the character you're playing.

The categorization isn't all that scientific, if it was, there would be more names to properly classify games. Again, if you weren't some underage piece of shit, you would know how we ended up with the "Action RPG" category and why the original intention of the term doesn't really apply to games like DM and Skyrim.

I guess it makes the person who used wikipedia as an argument first really silly.

Keep it going this is all going into the archive as evidence that you hate RPGs.

That's cute but level of your character's skills plays huge role in DM.
Try sneaking with 1 level of sneaking and sneaking with it maxed.

Not even nearly as much as in Morrowind.

"MISS MISS MISS" isn't challenge, it's a failure of the developer to account for real time combat being used in tandem with traditional stat-building. They seem to assume that players won't be frustrated when they consistently miss attacks because a particular weapon stat isn't up to par, when a better translation of their lack of skill building would be meager damage. In the beginning of the game, when the most you do would be clearing out rats from an attic or roving around looking for starter quests and enemies, that meager damage would be bearable.

You don't sneak in combat, you sneak before combat

Right, you sneak to avoid combat.
Which allows for different methods of playing the game.
It's almost like that thing rpgs are supposed to be about.

What doesn't Skyrim have to make it qualify for an rpg? Not enough dice rolls for you? At least when you shoot someone in the face point blank, the hit registers whether your skill with a bow is novice or master level.

well I'll put it to you this way, wikipedia is not a great tool, but it can be used to defeat not so great arguments similarly.

So the first argument you made that I dispelled rather easily is that you believed Dark Messiah of Might and Magic to be of the exact same genre as Morrowind! Now that's a pretty dumb argument, and anyone who's even seen gameplay of both games could tell you you're wrong. So I googled both games to show you the difference in their genres by the most basic of authorities!

Now, you tried to use wikipedia against me to say that Skyrim and Morrowind had not subtle differences. Now, this is something that I wouldn't expect a general knowledge encyclopedia to go into, but still you happily shoved two articles in my face to say "LOOK wikipedia says skyrim and morrowind are both the same, even though you essentially admitted they were both the same, that makes you wrong somehow!"

But I admit, going to wikipedia is not a great argumentative tool, I just wanted to easily showcase how dark messiah and morrowind are different without actually having to explain in detail. If you still believe this let me know and I can explain it in depth for you, without using wikipedia so you can hopefully understand.

Wikipedia is an authority for you?

That wasn't the argument

If you don't understand what abstraction is, you're too young and/or too stupid to have a valid opinion on what is and isn't an RPG.

Confirmed for never having played Dark Souls. You can beat Dark Souls without leveling up once, or with any weapon at its base stats, or without any weapon at all. You can't do the same in Morrowind no matter how hard you try, and that's what changes it from action with RPG elements to RPG with action elements.

That colossal gutting of the RPG aspects of TES is what makes Morrowind and Skyrim so different. You refusing to acknowledge this is the same as plugging your ears because you don't like what you're being told.

Wrong. The abstraction in Morrowind is to represent things like dodges, glancing blows, blocks, parries, poor edge alignment, and yes, misses. Saying that a poor attack should always deal damage is ridiculous.

Yeah, and it's tremendously easier with a pyromancer than with any other starting class, hence my comment.

The abstraction in Morrowind is shit, because it is a game in 3D space where the player actively clicks a target in order to attack. Nobody cares what the abstraction represents, the fact of the matter is you're swinging your weapon at an enemy in a video game and being told that it didn't matter for shit because your skill isn't high enough. In an isometric RPG this is acceptable, as the most you do is give the orders for attack and watch events play out. But when you directly control the character in the action, being told that you miss because of what amounts to a bad roll is frustrating game design that no one actually likes.

So it's excusable because things like that couldn't be animated at all back then.

That's almost a decent excuse.
Almost.

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These are the arguments that win hearts and minds

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The tattered set is mediocre, the hand axe is just a strength-based shortsword, the pyro glove can be obtained with ease, and the extra attunement slot is completely inconsequential. You can do the exact same thing with any of the starting classes in Dark Souls without having to grind for a single second, which is much the opposite in Morrowind.

This again? See .

Name me one RPG in the vein of Morrowind that accurately portrays edge alignment, subtle footwork, realistic dodges, proper parrying, and momentum-based damage without a single degree of abstraction. Better yet, make that any game that isn't Exanima. Just one.

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Morrowind relies on dice rolls for literally every non combat game mechanic. It's an RPG full on in its every mechanical aspect except walking around in first person.

Who said anything about only using the handaxe? Who said anything about only using base equipment?

Anyway Morrowind can be beat in 15 minutes with no grinding required.

It would need to revolve around character's skills instead of player's skills.
If Skyrim and DM have RPG gameplay, does that mean that Earth Defense Force is also an RPG? I mean, without high stats you don't stand a chance at making it through higher levels.
If EDF is an RPG, this discussion is over. If it is not, chances are Skyrim and DM aren't RPGs on the same way Morrowind is, which means that; while they might have some similarities, those 3 aren't alike. For those cases, there are subgenres, you start off from the core aspect of the game and you add more "adjectives" to properly categorize the game.
Morrowind revolves around stats, player interaction in combat is minimal although the game isn't turn-based, the default perspective is FPV, the game is open world with a lot of freedom on where to go and what to do, there is rich lore and world building, lots of quest to play; therefore Morrowind is an RPG, but with direct movement input and no time/turn instance, at the time, this was called Action (to put it apart from turn-based) RPG with sandbox elements/open-world map. DM is a lineal game, with FPV, stats determine damage out put and some other stuff, but, by large, you can ignore stats and still make a do in combat with enough skills on the player side, the player input is far more relevant; The core of the game is action and it has RPG elements (stats) on top, therefore it is an Action game with RPG elements, wrongly labeled now a days as Action RPG.

According to jewgle it's a tactical rpg so yes

Are you still going about with what google/wikipedia says?
Can you back that categorization with actual arguments?

You previous post:
…the implications being that the statistical and equipment based based differences between classes in Dark Souls are much greater than the differences between characters in Morrowind, which is flat out retarded. You can get enough souls to even out the stat differences between any two classes just from the consumables present in Firelink Shrine, the graveyard behind it (not the Catacombs), the Valley of Drakes, the beginning of the Undead Burg, and the run through Darkroot to Havel's tower, all without having to grind for a single second. Stop drawing references to games you clearly haven't played.

Skyrim has some RPG elements in its leveling system, but that's it. There are no classes, no permanent birthsigns, and close to no stat-checks for every single skill in the game combined. Compare that to Morrowind which has checks and rolls for almost everything bar walking.

Also no such thing in Fallout.

Anyway the entire conversion wasn't about Morrowind's status as an rpg; we all already knew that. This entire debacle started when i (rightfully) claimed that the combat mechanics of Skyrim are superior to Morrowind's in pretty much every conceivable way. Don't get me wrong, they're still dogshit compared to Dragon's Dogma. But certainly leagues ahead of the shit stain that is Morrowind's combat system.

Why would you do a level 1 dark souls run on any other class when pyromancer is the only one that can even be level 1? And then, why wouldn't you also utilize the best possible gear you can without leveling up? Like the reinforced club.

Fallout doesn't have individual skill training through use of said skill, but what it does have is skill points earned through leveling, as well as perks which affect more than just a few numbers here and there - both of which are lacking from Skyrim and Morrowind. Besides, Fallout 1 & 2 are pure RPG, whilst Morrowind is RPG with minor action elements, and Skyrim is heavily action with very light RPG elements. Why are you comparing apples to oranges?

There's no shame in admitting you misread something, user.

Because you said that skyrim has no classes or birthsigns as if that mattered to whether or not it's an rpg.

And that's comparing apples to oranges. Vastly different kind of games, specially on the combat aspect. It's like comparing M&B to TotalWar.
Complaining about dices for everything on Morrowind is the equivalent of going to an Opera play and complaining that there is singing.
You might enjoy Skyrim more and that's fine, everyone is entitled to have shit taste, but that doesn't mean they are comparable at all. To be more fair, comparing Morrowind's combat to Skyrim's combat is worse than comparing CoD 25 to Quake III Arena.
While we are at it, if you want action combat FPV game with RPG elements, modded Oblivion is better than modded Skyrim by a long shot, it takes more work, some mods are hard to come by, but the end result is better, even as skill based game.

But SL1 automatically implies being a pyromancer, user.

At least, that's what my 460 hours on dark souls thought

For further explanation:
Quake Arena and CoD are shooters. They both relay on reflex and player skills to determine the winner. They are both FPV. To an extend, both of them focus a lot on player movement to determine how long you survive in combat. But Quake relies more on movement and high-end games are more about getting the spawn timing right than actually aiming or being particularly exceptional at killing shit with sheer player skill. High-end competitive CoD on the other hand relies way more on aiming and positioning yourself right, to an extend, having some team cooperation and coordination as it is usually played on teams.
Quake and CoD are far more similar than Morrowind and DM, they are both based on the same core element on their gameplay (player skills), yet they aren't all that comparable, unless you feel like wasting your time.

They aren't "vastly different" though. They share many of the same skills, many of the exact core aspects. Alchemy, running around, water walking, first person view, bartering with shopkeepers, raiding dungeons, chugging potions, shit boring magic system, interior cells, exterior cells, npc dialogue, complex story, character development, cities, towns, bandits, fully lootable corpses, use any weapon or armor you find, weapon skills, armor skills, speech skills, sneak skills

They're the same fucking genre and you goddamn well know it. Skyrim is simplified, we get it. It also has a less shitty combat system.

You're missing the point entirely. One is player based and the other is character based. Not that hard to understand, there is a difference at the core of the game design.

In that case, every fucking game that's ever been made is an RPG. What are you trying to argue here?

You're the one who brought up SL1, not me, dickhead.

…there are also many that they don't share, as well as the ones which made it into later titles being extremely dumbed down.
Holy shit, is every game in which you can walk or run an RPG now?
How the fuck does an enchantment that only features in a single item buried away in the depths of an expansion make the two games mechanically similar?
Doom confirmed RPG.
Skyrim has no bartering. It's literally just "press E to sell".
Dungeons are a setting, not a mechanic.
And this somehow makes their combat the same?
Confirmed for not having played Morrowind.
I'm done here.

Its only a matter of time before they admit they think "as long as you are playing a role/your character is playing a role in the story then its a role playing game".

Again, even if they both are FPV, Fantasy RPGs on an Open World map with RPG elements.
To give you a rundown
Part of the same game world. MGS2 and MGR have the exact same giant robot, doesn't mean they are similar at all.

Open world map.

Relevant how?

Like 99,999999999999% of the high fantasy games

I would argue that Morrowind's system was far less boring

That's a technical aspect, almost any game with instanced areas and open map will have different kind of cells.

See above, either a byproduct of being an open world map, high fantasy game or sharing the same lore.
You're either too stupid to understand what core elements are or you're too stupid to acknowledge that you're dead wrong.

Inventory management, everything has weight, (ok, Morrowind's encumbrance system is actually somewhat more detailed). Guess what Skyrim has that Morrowind doesn't? Actual smithing. Sure, weapon durability is gone, but it was replaced with a very much needed crafting system. Spellmaking was scrapped (was abusable as fuck in Morrowind anyway, you could literally make infinite magicka recovery spells that cost nothing to cast), but enchanting got better (and also just as abusable).

We get it. We're all buttfrustrated that some skills and weapons were scrapped. Doesn't really make Morrowind that much more of a better or more complex game, especially considering the bland-at-best combat system.

Yup, that's exactly what I said. Retard.

Quoted the wrong post, again. It was meant for , obviously.

Again, not the same kind of game. Not based around the same core element.
You're yet to present a single valid argument to prove that Morrowind and Skyrim/DM (or whatever the fuck you want) are the exact same genre or even comparable games without making some much-need concessions in order to even out things and be able to properly compare.
Again, if Skyrim and DM are RPGs, is EDF and RPG? Is Stalker an RPG? Is Shadow of Mordor an RPG?

Kys tbh fam

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My suggestion remains. Swallow a bullet, retard.

Where did I said that? I never compared STALKER to DM.
Leve up that reading comprehension, mate.

You said if Skyrim is an rpg, so is stalker and DM.

Don't Athletics and Speed get checked to determine movement speed?

I never said nor implied that. I asked if, by the same metric you were claiming that Skyrim/DM was an RPG, you would consider all those other games (including STALKER) an RPG too. Non of the games listed at the end of the post you replied to are RPGs, that was the point.
Again, gain some reading comprehension, retard.

Aye, but there's not exactly a roll to determine tripping chance or anything of that natire.

Speaking of tripping chance there's even a calculation based on either Agility or Endurance, I can't remember, for when you get knocked down on your knees by a heavy blow. It's pretty awful if you have 0 Agility or Endurance because basically any blow will knock you down.

Like all good things it works both ways.