Fuck Multiplayer

That sounds more like a personal problem than anything - either your friends have shitty attitude or you've got a shitty attitude yourself that attracts those behaviors.

Plus, a little competition in cooperative games doesn't hurt the experience - in can actually serve to make it more enjoyable.

Why shouldn't those kinds of games exist? Does everything have to be a single-player affair?

Sometimes I feel like the only games I can play are multiplayer. Killing a bunch of AI drones will never be as fun as outplaying an entire team of people.

I remember how even with randoms back in the day you could invent all sorts of crazy yet fun scenarios to play because the only reward you would get from the game is actually fucking having fun and doing so with other people.

Nowadays try to suggest something different or even just that people wouldnt use that one flavor of the month class and no one is willing to roll with it because "Waah mommy i want to win!"

PULSAR? It's five players and each one is assigned a certain job on the ship.

What the fuck happened to Holla Forums last month? I remember some weeks ago people would extensively shit on people that just played for fun because "it is only fun if you win", but this thread is filled with Holla Forumsirgins hating on competitivefags.

Not that I complain, I always thought that cookie cutter follow-this-tutorial-to-win strategies were the cancer killing the fun out of winning and competition. They treat the game as if it was sprsrsbsnss and spend their time trying to master a single technique made by a "pro" that will probably switch strategies soon because the pro at least tries to experiment with the meta.

Idk I remember tournyfags, mobas, cs:go, and pretty much any competitive game getting a lot of shit.

Precisely. The incentive to be imaginative and creative was great, you're thrown in the deep end from the get-go and left to your own ways of having fun.
Now you're having to put more effort into seeking out what you consider to be the "deep end", that wacky way of getting your own bit of fun from the game without just playing it the way it was designed to be played.
That's actually one of the primary areas I've noticed this in. Pick a class you know has shit odds of winning, and purposely play it knowing you'll be frantically rushing about trying to avoid getting your ass obliterated, and people suddenly think you're weird as fuck because you don't really care about doing your best at the game…even though to you that's just a way of having fun.

I played League of Legends for a few weeks, and maybe once or twice I picked classes I knew would win the game, but I had way more fun just purposely fucking around trying to avoid getting my ass kicked as a weak character. Whenever this involved people on voice chat, they were audibly getting pretty mad at it. I had to stop playing because I was laughing at how mad they were.

But that's because Melee is a mainly party game that has been raped beyond oblivion to make it look competitive. People laugh at tourneyfags because only autism can transform Mario Party with punches into a EVO-tier fighter. I have never seen Holla Forums complaining about SFIII pros, for example.
ASSFAGOTS get shat on for two reasons: they are the shittiest, most boring "hardcore" game genre available right now, and they are popular so Holla Forums is bound to hate them.
That said, people at 4/v/ extensively defended DOTA2 in virtue of being "harder" than LoL, when it was just actually a different flavour of autism. Nobody seemed to mention that DOTA2 is also shit that only gets some recognition because e-sports are the new craze.
I haven't played CS:GO, but don't people around here criticize it because that game is yet another shitty FPS?

I could also add Starcraft 2 to the list, the main argument being "microgookclick is not a real skill".

All in all, it seems the Holla Forums hivemind hates most competitive games, but still loves competitive gaming. I have yet to see someone not sucking Romero Quake III's dick and that was one of the first "muh tourney" game, and probably the kickstarter of modern e-sports. Same goes for Unreal Tournament any edition.

...

Aside from the fact that extreme opinions are often the most vocal, Holla Forums has always been largely dominated by people one could describe as "amateur elitist". While there's a great disdain for the casualization and dumbing down of games for more casual players, there's also resentment for more overt competition that would require them to put more effort into their games than they're used to (hence referring to them as "amateur"). So while tourneyfags are stereotyped for only accepting one way to play, some people on Holla Forums exhibit that same personality by only accepting play that's not "excessively" competitive but not completely casual.

Literally any versus multiplayer game is competitive by it's very nature. I'd like to see the reasoning for how people just playing head-to-head without items constitutes as "raping" a game.
kek
People actually do complain about fighting game players interested just in versus, at least moreso after SFV came out with it's focus on a segmented release to make the game ready for the latest Capcom Pro Tour. "Tourneyfags" isn't a smash exclusive term.

I wonder what REALLY kickstarted this whole trend of no fun allowed.

I played Aoe2 (Age Of Empires for you ignorant swines) back in the day and that game obviously had no other "reward" for winning than… just winning but at one point i noticed people were slowly converting more and more to playing with Huns and Huns only because they offered a slight advantage in gameplay if you wanted to go with the typical early game battle strategies. okay not needing to build houses is actually pretty fucking neat at every era but still…

Even on the irc channel for aoe2 with 40~ people where we at one point just had fun making crazy new tactics and shit the majority of people slowly changed into the types to which winning is everything.
And that was obviously the turning point for the community too as relationships started to sour, people didnt want to play with certain people because they were either too good or not good enough though obviously on the latter they had no problems having the worse players on the enemy team so…

I even played in one "clan" those days and met those folks irl as they lived only 400~ km's from my city but even those relationships started to sour as after it all going no fun allowed there was clear "hierarchy" going on.
And obviously some members arent as good so they are the bottom of the barrel and ironically i was quickly the best player despite my unconventional tactics but that didnt bode well with the "leader" even though i never wanted to lead or give a shit about such things in the first place but that didnt stop him from resenting me just because i was the better player so… long story short kick'd out and few years of friendship down the drain.

Cunts who exclusively play mobas and the like, maybe alt-tabbing to some browser game every five minutes live on a completely different fucking planet than we do, user. You can't reach them. They spend their free time playing like they're still in the goddamn office with their cunt employer constantly evaluating their performance.

To enjoy the bitter salty tears of the arrogant British fags

what a little bitch

I've noticed similar things as well, especially when you meet up with them irl.

Most fun thing to do in that was make a sneak-tactic map kinda like Metal Gear Solid.
Have an obstacle course of turk shotgunners, especially when units are hidden behind obstacles like trees or buildings, and then try to survive sneaking through it with villagers to reach your goal.
Crazy levels of fun, especially if the map is huge and players are frantically trying to find where your villagers are.

no, it's

no one said it should "stop existing".

i don't like waffles, i prefer pancakes, but that doesn't mean I think waffles should no longer exist.

I would say its more of a problem with society as a whole. Most of our culture seems to care very little about self-improvement. If you do a slightly better job at something, you usually don't get rewarded for it. In fact, the people that get rewarded are usually the people that just try to get some quick results fast, even if their practices are self-destructive in the long run.

As a result, people just don't end up putting a lot of energy in trying to get better at what they do, be it games or anything else. Most of the people who play games are metashitters who just follow the same strategy every match due to the fact that that gives a high consistent success rate with minimum effort. People don't try to improve or play around mechanics; and I'd even go as far as to argue that the vast majority of people simply don't understand how videogames actually work. (But then again its obvious how a lot of game designers also don't know shit about this.)

I think that if people were more active in trying to learn and teaching one another how to actually do something well we'd end up not seeing this cancer. But with most of our education schools being baby sitting institutions and parents not interacting much more with their child other than watching TV and eating together with them, I don't think that culture is going to change anytime soon.

I usually have fun trying to break the game into doing things it wasn't supposed to do. One of my guiltiest pleasures is becoming a DPS healslut. AD Carry Sona comes to mind; shit wrecked hard until she got nerfed because Riot can't conceive people getting surprised at someone breaking the meta (like most MMO-like game devs). Support Poppy, AS Hybrid Lulu, Soraka Tank, Support Sex King, Offtank Leona, Riven/Blitzcrank bot, Riven solobot with Ashe/Soraka top, Valor offtank, lane Sejuani (before rework), Mid Draven… I tried them all, either directly by me or playing with some friends (and rarely randoms), and they were funny as shit, even if sometimes it meant losing. I remember those games more than I do my regular games because, who would have thought, they were boring as fuck.

Funnily enough, some of those combinations happened to be absurdly overpowered, like it was the case of Blitzcrank/Riven (apparently Blitzcrank/Xin Zhao is even more ridiculous, but I didn't have Xin Zhao at the time), Shaco bot, lane Sejuani, Mid Draven (this was beyond ridiculous as to how powerful it was) or top/bot inversion, but people would threaten to report you because they can't conceive anything other than the meta. Riot, being the dumb fucks they are, could actually (and already have) ban you for not following the meta if your teammates are meta autists. Apparently, things in the meta are there for a reason, like putting ADC / Support at the bottom lane to control the dragon and kill it as it spawns (note that nobody really took advantage of that supposed superior control except in the highest tiers), so you are expected to follow them because they are "mathematically superior" even though they aren't because pro gooks will always do things like constant laneswitching. It's like noobs wanted to follow the pros in doing something and they only barely understood the concept behind it.

Not only that, Riot has been doing recent changes to make the game adhere to the meta much harder, like making a gamemode where you choose your lane before entering the match (to choose between all 5 acceptable roles, like jungle, top, mid, bot ADC or bot support) or nerfing all characters with secondary unexpected roles. Good thing I stopped playing that shitty game.

It's not just the items. The game was clearly designed with items, several stages, several characters and several players at once, but Melee tournaments are always
NO ITEMS
FOX ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION
Same goes for Smoguemon tournaments, where everybody uses the same hacked team ("but this 1 in a billion chance Pokémon could TECHNICALLY happen in-game, so it is legal!") and the "game" reduces to trying to guess which one of the same six Pokemon will go next. Basically, they are so far up their asses/strategies they have, either formally (banned characters, strategies, maps…) or informally ("why should I learn playing against any other character when I will find this one in 99% of my matches"), agreed to limit themselves to only play less than 1% of what the game could offer, because that's apparently the most efficient way to victory.

Well, you can't expect not to laugh at motherfucking SFV players of all things, considering the wreckage that game is.

That said, retro game tourneyfags are mostly respected around here, although that may as well be because the userbase didn't get to know the old competitive scene. I remember several anons getting angry at some LoL pro-sponsored RAM sticks even though FATAL1TY has already been doing that for years.

...

holy fuck that sounds boring.

this sounds like a huge opportunity to market adult diapers to competitive gamers.

LoL has got to have one of the saddest competitive scenes around. With the way Riot is desperately trying to force competitive to use their designed meta, it just ends up being boring as fuck to watch.

That said, making people choose lanes before the match starts is a pretty good idea. That way you don't end up with idiots fighting over mid. If only they put actual effort in the game and made you pick your roles as part of matchmaking, then the game wouldn't suffer from this. If they're enforcing a meta they might as well reap the benefits from it, but nah, better pretend they're not forcing a shitty meta.

Actually, it's designed for having variable number of players, stages, etc. That's why random stage switch and item switch exist. Playing one-on-one with no items on Battlefield is just as valid as playing 4-player free-for-all on Temple with pokeballs and bob-ombs set to high. I'd also go as far to say that the characters were balanced without items or stage gimmicks in mind, because with those introduced, the game's already lopsided balance becomes even more extreme where only the fastest characters succeed by a large margin, and hard counters (with both characters and stages) are far more prevalent.
Sakurai, is that you?
Aside from items, stages are the only other things "banned" in Melee, but can be played if the players agree to it. You won't find people doing it often however because many stages are grossly unbalanced for certain characters and/or encourage degenerate playstyles that make for unfun competition.
While it's true that several people playing competitively suffer from narrow-minded view of potential strategy, but people that do think in such ways typically never go far in any competitive environment due to that stubborn mindset.

God damn, THIS.
Even for shit like Smash Bros, without a public online community.
When I was in college nobody would dare ever play anything but no-items stock.

Competitive Smash is designed for minimizing potential strategies and maximizing uniformity.
Because it's fan base don't like when there's any element of RNG, and since the game has RNG hard coded in, you get massive autism, and it's always hilarious.

You know how there's like a few variations of football (soccer for you yanks), now imagine if you had some massive asperger force going around trying to force a single way to play for it to be competitive.
Now imagine if this force instead insisted that it was actually Tennis instead of soccer.
That is smash

That's smash

Well, in some way the game was already boring from the start. The only actual difference is that you get to skip the lane negotiation phase and you don't get MID||FEED retards anymore, as said. The real problem with this is that Riot is actively encouraging some boring unwritten rules and basically, don't expect to ever get 2 top/2 bot or some weird antimeta shit anymore because the game will make you believe you are forced to play that way and only that way. It was already unlikely before, now it is pretty much impossible.

DESIGNATED SHITTING META

But it's true, though. This meme didn't appear just because. Just search YouTube for tournament matches and you will see that most players opt for Fox. You can occasionally see the typical Captain Falcon dissenter, but truth is most characters get zero to no love.

In Brawl this wasn't as clear cut, but nevermind that tourneyfags don't like this game if it isn't Project M.

Maybe not in Melee, but in Brawl there were some tournaments were they did ban some characters. Just look at that picture that gets thrown around whenever someone mentions tourneyfags.

Yeah, it's not like most tournaments end in Fox vs Fox, or like most of the time Ryu is the character with the most victories in most SF tournaments, or like that picture of that Pokemon tournament where the 6 out of 7 finalists had the same team except for the winner, that had a single different Pokemon.

oh no they actually banned someone from a tournament for running 4-1-sac bot.
They claimed that "the game wasn't designed around it and it was basically an exploit" IIRC

ITT: The left tail of the Bell curve.

Common Core is everywhere, friend. It is designed to punish nonlinear thinking and prevent the discovery of solutions deviating from the narrative.

I miss being able to break a game over my knee by doing unexpected shit. Abusing synergies of passive and active skills in old MMOs and such. No, anymore, publishers only "support" games by issuing patches to cripple functionality.

git gud

I'd argue the opposite. By banning certain grossly unbalanced elements, more strategies are able to coexist, rather than having a solely dominant strategy take over the game. If you were allowed to play on any stage and with items on, characters like Fox and Shiek would be so grossly overpowered for abusing very specific strategies that it wouldn't even be funny.
Yet it also has options for turning off the RNG hard coded in as well.

Actually, at the time it appeared (just before the launch of Brawl), it was much less accurate with how the game was played. Far more stages were used (Brinstar, Mute City, etc) and Sheik and Marth were perceived to be better than Fox. Even now, "best character" has always been a shifting thing in Melee (typically between Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, and more recently Jigglyuff). Fox has only be considered "best" and the goto pick for people since about 2013, while before that (2009-2012) Falco and Puff were considered the best.
It's actually pretty balanced between the debated top tiers and some decent high-mid tier representation.
That aside, there's pretty decent representation of non-foxes out there. Part of the reason Fox has been more prevalent recently was because of the best players pushing Fox further than other characters over the last few years that the people other character haven't "caught-up", in a sense. This has recently changed, with one of the best players dominating all the top Foxes with Jigglypuff, which again called the perceived worth of Fox into question.
Are you kidding? The balance in Brawl was far more lopsided than Melee ever was. You'll see maybe 8-12 characters performing well in Melee, while only 4-5 see good use in Brawl. You'll see a top Melee player more keen on sandbagging against less skilled players with a low-tier like Pichu or Bowser than you will see a top Brawl player with Ganondorf or Jigglypuff.
Are you talking about the "Brawl club" image? Most actual tournaments never had character bans, aside from a few early ones that tried to ban Meta-Knight (which never really caught on).
You really don't know anything about the things you're complaining about - which isn't surprising given you used a meme to inform your opinion.

I was talking about fly distance, damage variation, and things you can't change.

By banning these elements it allows for tiers to become even more pronounced than usual. I mean look at those you just posted. You have one bowser mirror, and one gandondorf for slower characters.
Fast characters completely dominate on the unbanned stages usually because they have a focus on upwards and sidesway mobility to recover from damage.

Are these real friends, or people you met in a single game that added you to their friend list?

Don't assume just because you have one game in common, that you both will have all the same tastes. Especially if you're looking for a vidya bro.

>YEAH NAH LET'S FORCE YOU TO INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS AND SCALE EVERYTHING TO IMPLY THAT YOU NEED AT LEAST ONE MORE PERSON
Fuck everyone who thinks this is acceptable.

OP needs to play better games.

Knockback distance is dictated by damage, the angle of knockback is dictated by the move's hitbox and enemy DI, and damage of moves is only slightly changed by staleness (how often it is used) or how long it's charged (for smashes and some specials). There's nothing random about any of those. There are random things that can't be avoided like Peach's turnips, Luigi's green missile, and G&W's hammer, but their effects are so minimal that no one minds them.
No, it's actually the opposite that's true. If everything was unbanned in Melee you'd see Fox in SS, Falcon and Sheik in maybe A, and then pretty much everyone else in F.
And Link, ICs, Falco, Puff, Mario, Peach.
Hell no. On most banned stages, fast characters can much more easily beat slower characters by stalling and camping if the stage is bigger or has hazards that the slow characters need more effort to avoid. This becomes an even bigger problem when items are thrown into the mix. It's on the more neutral stages where slower characters stand a much better chance since they often don't allow for easy stalling and force the characters to confront each other. Really slow characters like Jigglypuff and Peach are able to contend with top tiers rather comfortable.

So you have a horribly balanced game you're attempting to force into a competitive spotlight while the core game is severely unbalanced and even with the "corrections" you're still having balance issues? Maybe it was only meant to be a dumb party game, but naw. Lets go deeper in
you're full of shit damage is RNG based by a few% not to mention at higher % damage you deal more damage.
Faster characters are always higher tier than slower characters. Even on the so called "balanced" stages it's a uphill battle for them from the word go.

Not him, but Fox on Peach's Castle and Corneria is infinitely more oppressive than Final Destination. In fact, it's been said by top players that Marth is the best character in the game on FD. And don't get me started on Peach on Mute City. The stages that have been banned have all been banned so that top characters don't completely dominate those stages. The Tiers being pronounced as they are is because the game is old and was never meant to be competitive.

Just because it was never meant to be competitive doesn't mean it's not one of the most satisfying competitive games ever if you ignore the shit characters and put in the time to learn the mechanics.Also, faster characters are better than slower characters in like every fighting game ever made.

Not really fuck Tager is high tier in BB. I mean the only reason litchi is so high is that fucking pole nonsense with unblockable crossups.

"If you put in the time, ignore 60% of the game because that's the unbalanced portion, and break your controllers by mashing R it's a fun game" fucking there's a reason most Smash players have carpal tunnel and break their GC controllers and it's not because they're easy on the R button

It's far from perfect, but I wouldn't say it's far worse than most other games played competitively.
No, it's not at all. The only time you'll see a change in the damage of moves is if you spam them and they stale in percent, but this rate at which it scales downward is consistent and not random.
That's only a feature added in Smash 4, and even then the damage isn't random - it scales predictably.
Like I said in a previous post, characters Falco and Puff are debated as being the best yet are decidedly slower than characters like Falcon, Pikachu, and Fox. There's more than just speed that makes lower tier characters falter.

Yeah except other games don't ban 50+% of them out to achieve "well it has balance issues"

Nice!
Ok 100% complete every game you've ever played or you're ignoring parts of the game which is bad for some reason.
Maybe if I make shit up, he'll agree with me!

I can't play any popular multiplayer games anymore because 80% of the playerbase are fucking braindead casuals who call anybody better than them a "tryhard" or a "hacker".

That argument doesn't hold for a competitive game that has very little content. Like just playing single player to 100% smash only takes like 5 hours. Most of the content and playtime is supposed to come from playing with other people.

Co-op Multiplayer is better

I gave up on multiplayer years ago.
But I think it's only because my tastes changed. Over time, I've come to appreciate the ability to have a self-directed experience.

Exactly. If both players are playing to improve, then the potential playtime is endless, and in melee, the improvement keeps going and going and going which is why people still play it after 15 years. The less viable characters and less stages doesn't serve to narrow the playtime or anything, it actually serves to make the knowledge grind less huge (of course it's still huge though) and make the game better in every conceivable way. Plus you will eventually have to learn how to fight the bad characters anyway because every character still has a few dedicated mains floating around who don't give a shit and will fuck you up anyway.

Basically, melee is a learning experience and tournaments are an exercise in self-improvement, which is why I get confused when people on Holla Forums hate on it so much considering the popular hate for casuals here.

...

Except in melee you banned out 60% of the game.
You're literally hurting massively your ability to play with other people

Only thing that's banned are stages and only in tournament and only because it gives certain characters ridiculous advantages so that anyone who doesn't pick that character on that stage is capping them self. So 60% of the game is not banned. Like 80% of the stages are but who cares where you're fighting? I mean what if there was a stage in Street Fighter where a section of the screen would randomly become red and deal 20% of your life bar so zoners became insane on that stage or where there would randomly just be a corner behind you sometimes so corner pressure heavy characters became insane. People would eventually ban those stages in tournament because it essentially turns off a bunch of the cast temporarily for no good reason. So turn off the broken stages, turn on the mediocre characters. That makes it so more people can play, not less.

...

Except those aren't fighting games are they? I'd also argue that those are shit competitive games too but whatever.

Stages, Characters (randomly might I add, they banned all characters with a counter for a good bit and then unbanned them), items.
literally 60% of the game.

Who did this? What game? When? What? Whatever it was, "They" were probably a bunch of retards who didn't know shit and it was probably early in the game's lifespan. Every time a new smash game comes out, there's always new whiny babbies who blame the character on their loss and cry for bans. In a few rare occasions they wind up getting their way for a little bit but it's just some isolated local usually or in Sm4sh's case, entire countries in Yuroop. Basically, no one important. But then everyone else finds out and is like "what the fuck, faggots? Git gud, lol."
It goes back to the SF example with 20% of the screen covered in red but this time it's random how much damage you take or if you take damage at all (pokeballs, hammers) but now there's exploding boxes which cant be turned off if items are on and can pop up right in front of you during an attack and and basically items in competitive is literally retarded and if you think that's a good idea then you're without redemption.
There is an option in-game to turn off items. If there was an option to turn off RNG in Pokemon, tournament players would turn that shit off as fast as possible.
So yeah, Characters aren't being banned, and items are and always have been optional in multiplayer. The reason behind that is to make a match more serious. My whole shtick right now is that I'm saying the game is fun if you take it seriously. Of course, that's not for everyone, which is fine and dandy, who gives a shit if people play the game differently than me? What I'm saying is my way is the way you play if you want a serious match. Years of theory-crafting and tournament testing backs me up on this.

They were actually known as the Socal elite 4. But you're right they (and every other pro smash player) is a retard.

"The SoCal Elite 4, formerly known as The Elite 5, was a crew based in Southern California. They were known for hosting the Zero Challenge tournament series from 2004 to 2007"
HAHAHAHAHAHA

oh right the rest of it, you're a retard the testing is stilted by not only personal bias, but the bias of the researchers attempting to quantify something that's subjective as objective.
Especially when trying to force the game to be something it so obviously isn't.

And the problem is how infuriatingly smash forces itself everywhere. It got banned from Evo so what did they do, throw hissyfits until they got banned from MLG and then throw money at EvO until they got back in. It's irratating because of how many chances it gets simply because autists will throw money at it, not because it's got good systems or anything of the sort, but because it has to be super competitive fighting game because they spent so much time in it.
It's like how roguelike is the new term for "hard game with any RNG" it's to show how hardcore it is. Same thing with smash, it could just be a semi-competitive party game, but no it MUST be a fighting game to show how PRO and WELL SPENT the time is.

Hell Mew2King constantly rigs brackets, and tries to petition for ice climbers to be banned.

"Maybe if I make shit up, he'll agree with me!"

Naw he fucking is banned from MLG because he rigged brackets so much

You're just so wrong about so many things at once. You know literally nothing, please stop pretending to know anything it's sad. I'm gonna go actually play video games now.

here's his SSB wiki where he recieved a red card for pot splitting (which is a lifetime ban unless you're a special snowflake) and multiple yellow cards for flat rigging
ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Mew2King

Please don't misuse Her to satiate your need for arrogant gloating, you redundant sub-creature.

This is false - Smash was never banned from EVO. There was dissatisfaction with the 2008 tournament, but it came back the year after.
Because of a bracket manipulation incident they dropped it in 2010. There wasn't any official ban and picked it back up in 2014.
You mean threw money at charity.
You sure you're not the one with the bias here?

One crazy autist who's known as the figurehead of the scene.
Like shit imagine if Justin or Daigo acted like mewtwo king does. The legitimacy of the game suffers depending on who the figurehead is.

Of course he needs to cheat. He lost to a fucking Yoshi.

What world do you live in? He's been mocked ever since he's been around.

What I'm starting to hate as well are games that are technically "singleplayer", but are totally made with co-op in mind. So now fuck me if I like to play something by myself, you're only allowed fun in co-op. I tend to just blow through them singleplayer regardless, like with FEAR 3. And half the time, its not fun, singleplayer or co-oplike FEAR 3.

(Even Jesus agrees, check em)
This

Bumping.