If Communism has never been tried, then how exactly do we know that it will work out at all?

If Communism has never been tried, then how exactly do we know that it will work out at all?

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youtube.com/watch?v=dGT-hygPqUM&list=PL3F695D99C91FC6F7&index=1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism
investopedia.com/terms/w/welfare-capitalism.asp
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We won't, but to us it seems to be the logical thing to do, because it continues the trend of history.

We didnt know capitalism was going to work yet we undemocratically elected it dintwe?

What exactly does this mean?


Uh… what?

We didnt have capitalism in the past, why did we adopted it in the first place if it had never been tried and we didnt know if it was going to work??

Every time the mode of production changed to fit the new material reality, and we are on a trend towards less and less classes. Theres only two left now, and material conditions are changing to such an extend that the owning class in not necessary anymore. So therefore the logical step would be socialism and thus communism.

At what point in time did "we" decide to start using a capitalist model? Is there any particular moment in time that can be pin-pointed? What preceded Capitalism?


It kind of seems like socialism has a really long history of failure though. I understand that Communism is the end-goal after socialism. But don't you think it may be pretty difficult to go from a massive state/government into a stateless, classless society?

Trading up for better goods is the fundamental value of capitalism, we have had capitalism since 96,000 BC

"communism", is a state of society, classless and fairly (what one would imagine) autonomous, after a transitionary period where the implied need for a controlling organism far removed from local domains has been made more or less obsolete by the gradual inclusion of all basic services, resources and necessities via a previous more or less centralized system directly 'hiring' people in a society still using monetary systems to direct labour, where the idea is that technology, automation, and direct interaction leading towards output which is useful, has taken over the regular day to day routine in contrast to the indirect labour and commodities system in which we live under today. There are several stages of the transition, and it requires at the end stage more or less an international federation of socialist states to work together, towards this goal.

It's not about "how can we know communism works if it's never been tried" as "communism" is a state, where we have already reached the point where everything you view as necessary under capitalism, isn't necessary.

There would still be organizational structures, institutions, probably, of some sort; you would still have some form of structure, but nothing anything resembling what we have, today. Communism doesn't just "happen", it's not something to flip a switch to 'try out' and see if it 'fails'. If you reach it, it already works.

Imagine how your family 'just works' (if you have an ok family, if not - ignore this, heh). That's about it.

It's really not that complicated.

That's what I was going to say. It seems like Capitalism has always been the preferred method of commerce among our species. It also seems like every time we try to get away from this "free-market" model, we fail and then immediately revert back to it.

Every time someone on this board explains what communism is, it just seems like it's a total fantasy that is completely out of touch with reality.

Capitalism is extremely recent, and an extension of feudalism (while being a rebellion, ironically, against feudalism),

Capitalism has never been the "preferred method of commerce", because capitalism is not a method of commerce. Capitalism is a system of ownership, enforced by a state or a dominant power. Trade and commerce can exist within it, but a free market in the capitalist system has no relation to ancient forms of barter commerce, other than possibly the idea of using an intermediate 'prime commodity' - a currency, to conduct trade. For entirely different motivations, at that. (barter with a prime barter commodity in old fashioned markets was primarily due to the inability for immediately transporting or making a clear exchange between say, something which rots fast, and something which rots slower).

What part of it seemed like a fantasy, to your mind?

In fact, nevermind: assuming you're not the obvious troll I think you are - how about you spend your time wasting on this - youtube.com/watch?v=dGT-hygPqUM&list=PL3F695D99C91FC6F7&index=1 , instead of shitposting here.

The entire idea of:


The fact that it has never been tried yet there are so many people that seem to think it's "the perfect system". A system created by an unemployed, thieving, Jewish con-artist. Attempted by some of the most absurdly brutal states the world has ever known.

It's all really bizarre, to be honest. It honestly just seems like the system that is promoted by unfit, unattractive people that don't really have any noticeable accomplishments in life.

...

So did capitalism at the start.

It may seem that way until you realise its not "lawlessness" or mad max like some people (including anarchists on this board), but rather where the state has been democratised and its tasks delegated away to such an extend that calling it a "state" isnt really applicable.

Think more slowly going from one system of government to another rather than abolishing the entire concept of government.

Right… you're just a Holla Forumstard trolling, gotcha.

Jesus.
Sage in all fields.

If you profit in a communist society you get jail time or shot

Yes trading up for goods is capitalism

Bartering had a rough start?

Well, when was that?


So what is the actual end-goal of communism? Just more free time and leisure? I just don't understand.


Well by all means, tell me why my observations are wrong.

Okay, it's going to be this kind of argument, so let's try it the other way.
What is feudalism?
What is capitalism?
What is socialism?
What is communism?

And what exactly is wrong with that?

cap·i·tal·ism

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

I think by "state or dominant power" he meant government contracts or the court

Private property is enforced by the state, or a dominant power being the ad-hoc state (i.e with no 'people's state'-illusion, it's merely a tyrant's state, in the case of a 'free market'; whoever has the most resources, building the largest 'bandit force' (mafia) becoming the warband which forms… the state, as a first tier feudal style state, later struggles potentially making it into a non-feudal state, etc.).

You really are the shit tier of retards, aren't you.

...

A capitalist form of government
A capitalist form of government with progressive tax policies and a welfare state
Historically a state-run monopoly on international commerce that oppresses commerce within its own state by force. In the leftist fantasy world a perfect place where everyone is equal and nobody is poor and everyone is happy.


No, its enforced by violence, if there was no state I would enforce my private property by force with weapons. Feudalism is an example of stateless capitalism.

Unless there's some string of catastrophes that keeps human social development in constant limbo, civilization will inevitably evolve into a classless social order. Communism is one vision of how this may manifest itself. If communism is indeed impossible, classless society will emerge in another form, one that we couldn't predict.

That said, communism isn't "tried". It's a theoretical social organization that socialism evolves into.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Then what does the definition of communism matter? Why does any of this matter?

Oh wait thats not an argument

Bartering is not capitalism, read a history book.


The end of feudalism

The abolishment of money, the abolishment of classes and the abolishment of the state, all of which grand power to some people over others without justification and potentially allow them to increase that power using the power they have.


Its litterally a 5 second google search.


that i still correct you dunce, the state is a tool of capitalist society to enforce property claims. A state existing and enforcing property claims is one of the main things that allows capitalism to exist, as most capitalists dont have their own private army to protect their property.

Because of the implications of commodity production.

Read Das Kapital.

But what happens in the end?

What is the end-goal of this all?
Where do we progress after we've achieved a classless society? What happens to our population? How could all humans possibly live under this system based in equality on such a profoundly unequal planet whose entire existence is practically driven by the reality that inequality is exists everywhere?

Please help me understand how this isn't just some ridiculous leftist fantasy?

Communism is a state (as in a 'mode of society', not 'state' as in the institution of a state structure) which is attempted reached by a socialist state in a transitionary period fuelling the creation of worker owned, direct democratic, modes of production and societal governance.

(You)

A "state" in the context in which we are discussing, has the monopoly of violence, it doesn't need to be a democratic state to have this. You can remove modern day versions of a state, and still have a 'state', and it will still apply violence on behalf of those with the most resources. A Feudal state is a tyrannical dictatorship, defending the property of the owners with not even a shred of the illusion of democratic input.

You are clearly a troll. You cannot be this stupid.

Lmao no


Industrial revolution

What preceded Feudalism?


But humans are not equal. There will always be those who will have the wherewithal to exercise power and supremacy over others.

Must one believe that all humans are created equal in order for the rest of this idea of global communism to seem reasonable and possible?

How so?
A capitalist form of government with progressive tax policies and a welfare state
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism
You fucked up son.
State ran monopolies existed even before Marx was born.
You still didn't tell me what is communism except for "the dum lefties".

Socialist political parties fit the bill of A capitalist form of government with progressive tax policies and a welfare state, it doesn't matter what you think Socialism is because what you're describing does not exist.


Not an argument


You smoke meth right? Because you just went from
to
I know leftists have some sort of plug where contradictions can't slip into their thought process but can you at least try to plunge that?


So basically your definition of state is a spook which you can arbitrarily apply to anything and anyone because

YOU DONT HAVE AN ARGUMENT?

Don't believe me? Check the talk article of the article you posted and click the user profiles.

lmao let me quote the mises institute or prager university for the definitions of liberalism and capitalism while I'm at it

Nice meme

I already did, its a fantasy, a nothing, an impossibility. Trying to set up a communist state is like trying to start a Jedi academy.

Loving these memes

What do you mean by "unequal planet"? The fact that inequality exist does not mean that equality can't. For example, two people unequal in wealth pay the same fee for a speeding ticket.

The end goal of capitalism is the commodification of everything and the ultimate result is a monopoly.
You don't seem to understand that bourgeoisie society is the commodification of "natural hierarchy" in the name of profit. Capitalism strips the holy and sacred implication from family, nation, and so on and reduces them to monetary relations.
Leftists want equality of opportunity and to make it so no man or woman is poor enough to have to sell his or her body, and none rich enough to buy it.

Equal in power in the sense of power within a society for the governing of a society and the sharing and access of the fruits of society, is very different from saying equal as in "same".

Your mindset would have us stuck rebuilding the basics of any notion of civilization over, and over again… but again, you are clearly a troll, and anyone replying to this thread without a sage really should rethink. You're just trying to shore the argument at the coast of an absurdity, while not touching or taking in any arguments and acting like some little 'trickster' thinking they're clever because they got people to argue the differences of the colors of the wings of a butterfly on the head of a pin.

This entire thread, is a troll.

Then why does everyone get the same standard of living? Equality is an implicit value of communism and leftism in general.

investopedia.com/terms/w/welfare-capitalism.asp
Here you go, maybe this will hurt your feefees less.


You still didn't define communism.

No, and that has nothing to do with it. If humans are not equal, then under an egalitarian system the better ones would have it better due to all the non-montary benefits being better has.

And there is the majority who will put a bullet through their skull if they try.

no

also
wrong.
Private ownership started to appear under feudalism due to the industrial revolution and the capitalists used their power to shape the government to allow them to do their capitalist things. Thus they helped create each other. You can have the start of another system within another system, its not an on off switch. Private property can exist within feudalism just as collective property can exist within capitalism.

This thread is filled with fucking idiots who claim jews and commies are behind everything and twist and turn definitions to fit their delusional worldview.

Stop replying in this thread if you value your braincells.

That doesnt mean everyone is equal????

We both breathe oxygen and exhale co2, but we are not equal since i use my nose and you use your mouth

Haha no? Noncitizens do not have equal power in terms of governing a society and neither do those who do not have armaments. My social relationships dictate my ability to impact society and if I'm an average pleb retard like you commies fellate I'm not smart enough to form those connections.

lmao not an argument

Because it's available? It'll be strange if it was precisely equal, as people's social lives would be very different, but resource wise? Are people starving, today, because of real scarcity? No, they're not. They're starving because of resources withheld from them.

Again, why don't you watch the playlist I plugged earlier? youtube.com/watch?v=dGT-hygPqUM&index=1&list=PL3F695D99C91FC6F7

I'd imagine even a troll such as you, would have some of it reach your brain, if not consciously at least in your sleep, when your persona is thankfully unconscious.

Wrong, private ownership started to appear in pack animals 500k years ago

Can i repost these memes on r/anacap???

Personal property*

Not an argument
They're starving because they have a mean IQ of 70 and don't understand the fundemental machinations of society because they are the equivalent to wild animals.
The same argument you try to apply to that is nonsense because you try to compare complex mathematical skills and shit like hunter-gathering and bush-craft.

Negro children do not recognize themselves in the mirror until they are 4 years old, that is one maturity level less than a lower ape and 3.2 years longer than successful, civilized races like the east Asians and Europeans.

Fundamentally the same thing, personal property is just private property that is enforced by the state.

That is the end-state society.

Look at it this way. Let's say you had an organism living in some anomalous planet where the environment never changed. Since evolution isn't completely random (the traits organisms pick up in some way help them survive, pass on their genes, or both), given an infinite amount of time you would expect that organism to reach a "perfected" state, a state where literally any change, any mutation makes them less likely survive and pass on their genes. A state that invites no more change.

For humanity, this is the classless society, achievable because society develops much faster than an organism and because we can purposefully organize ourselves. But from ancient despotisms, to classical slave society, to feudalism, to capitalism, the history of human social development has centered around resolving class antagonism, ending with a reorganization of society in some way resolves the old class antagonisms and contradictions. Since classes are, by their very nature, antagonistic, this can only end with a society that has no social class. Thus, the classless society is the end-state society humanity is developing inevitably into. A popular vision of what this might look like is what we call "communism".

Literally this. It's honestly not a coincidence that the lowest IQ races/countries on this planet are doing the most poorly.'

Even if the system of global communism came to be, it would be brought to all corners of the earth by the same races/people/countries that are already doing the best.

This notion that equality would work equally well for all people's is a dream.

Personal property is just a meme you communists take advantage of to say "oh I don't want to steal this" because you'd feel bad

You ever think that there might be a good reason as to why the neurosurgeon with 2 PhD's that speaks 9 languages is in a higher class with a higher standard of living than the down syndrome meth addict that lives off of state welfare?

Or is it because "muh ebil capitalism drives inequality"

For instance, communists define personal property as something like your clothes on your back or your shoes. Private property that communists can't take (they would if it was someone they don't like) because it effects their moral standpoint in society.

And do you believe that this same moral standpoint can be applied to all humans across the globe?

I still didn't get non-meme answer what is socialism.

holy shit
private property is private ownership of means of production
read any book

Class is defined by your relationship to the means of production, a neurosurgeon is working class.

All these posters are trolls, and aren't reading a damn reply other than to drag it back into race realism bullshit.


Sage in the email field. Don't bump this shit.

and what is the welfare leech