I don't understand how it's possible to be a (Maoist) Third Worldist without being a primitivist or, at least, an indigenist. The whole premise of MTW seems to revolve around the notion that colonials are incapable of fighting for a genuine socialism because their minds have been so warped due to their status as beneficiaries of colonial/imperialist exploitation. First World culture, as it were, is entirely rooted in the colonial/imperialist economic base, so there is no divorcing the two, and any kind of socialist revolution would ultimately entail the destruction of western culture by default. Third Worldists also seem to imply that revolution is only possible in the Third World because Third Worlders have better values due to 1. being exploited, and 2. not having a mechanized culture the way the modern west does. In other words, Third Worlders hold to principles higher than themselves and will thus make sacrifices that First Worlders won't.
This is also why I question the "Third Worldism" of Jason Untrue. It seems as if his MTW has more to do with his frustrations over First World Marxists and less to do with actual sympathies for the indigenous. Just look at how he defends Stalin so seriously, when most indigenists have extremely negative views of Stalin for his treatment of the peasantry and indigenous peoples of the USSR (Tatars, Armenians, etc.).
Plus: is it really possible to think there's enough resources on this planet for every single Third World nation to look like the USSR in the 1930s?
Agrarian socialism is the way to go.
Christian Green
maoist third worldists should just admit they want killing fields.
Jaxon Martin
a soviet latinamerican union would have enough resources.
Gavin Gomez
How many of those resources are underneath lands the indigenous need to sustain their ways of life?
William Gutierrez
Jason isn't a real Maoist. He's just a Stalinist who likes quoting Mao's combat liberalism.
Jeremiah Bell
DGR pls go.
Gabriel Sanchez
I just This is satire right? Almost literally everything this lady says about Marx is factually wrong.
Anthony Price
It's probably not satire.
Kevin Lopez
It's real all right. I saw the original post.
Hudson Green
The biggest problem I have with third worldism (and much of vanguardism in general) is that is seems to ignore the march of history.
If you tried to implement Capitalism, say in 500ad, you would fail. The technological ability was not there, Labour markets were not there, Social condition were not there, the class and social conditions were not there. Capitalism wouldn't work, the closest you could probably get was merchantalism of the Italian City State Republics.
As time and technology and social ideals and class contradictions marched on, eventually, we got to the point where society could make that switch from Merchantalism and Feudalism, into functioning Capitalism. This was around the early 19th century.
The same thing will happen to Socialism and Capitalism. Capitalism will get to a point, where the contradictions bear too much on the system and it will be actively holding back society, we will hit a point where the social conditions that a switch to Socialism will occur and that is when it will happen, this switch will come about most likely due to mass automation, AI and the Rate of Profit collapsing to a point where Capitalism barely functions.
Why, in fuck then, would you try develop Socialism, in countries that are more backwards and less technologically and socially developed than some Western countries were in the early 20th century?
Yes, poor people have more "revolutionary potential" because yes, they are more exploited and pissed off, but "Revolutionary potential" does not equal Socialism. This should be the main lesson from "back yard furnace" Mao who believed that the revolutionary will of the people will turn utensils into high grade steel.
Third-Worldists are not Marxists, they're revolutionary fetishists.
Luis Brown
It's a load of racist shite, don't worry about it
Andrew Perez
Historicism/10
Also, you should ask Jason about this because I'd love to hear his (horribly written) response.
Josiah Thompson
the growth of revolutionary movements in the third world are the most evident proof of the contradictions of capitalism at it's imperialist phase, duh. but also i have to agree with you, us maoists third wordlists are not marxist, but evolved marxists. keep waiting your revolution in the first world kiddo.
Jose Hall
Please. There's no shortage of people in the First World who are also struggling to survive on a daily basis. Ever been to the inner city?
Even Unruhe admits poor blacks are a potential revolutionary demographic, he just pulls the bait and switch with claims that a black uprising would be nationalist and not communist. Okay Jason, so what the fuck is Hamas then? Assad isn't exactly communist either, nor was Gaddafi, nor is Mugabe.
Joshua Perry
maybe in first world there is still some people that earn less than the mean sallary of the entire world, but the fact that in the third world the bourgeoise is less powerful makes movilization much more probable in there.
that's why every single (succesful)revolution has taken place in the third world, thing that according to orthodox marxism wouldn't have to occur.
Jace Cruz
Are you shitting me? The extremes in what is considered the third world (a term I despise using personally anyway), are even greater than in the first world, in your face greater.
Yes the propaganda control is greater in the first world - in some countries. Straight up raw control? Dude, what planet are you living on?
Even in former Soviet states that sold out to capitalism. The new-rich in those countries are like gods that can and do, do anything they want, with even less of a hint of a mention or moral outcry than what occurs in the US.
How rich (and I say this as more or less a sinophile, so don't get me wrong) do you think the Chinese borgys are compared to the average worker, there?
China is a great nation, again don't get me wrong; but you know those stories of the borgy generation's kids? Those that literally walk around and can kill you, in the open, be you foreigner or native, and nothing happens? They're not false.
If you had at least said, in the "third world" some of the nations have higher extremes (higher rates of accellerationism, if you will); thereby a stronger revolutionary potential, at least you'd have had a point. But stating that the borgy is less powerful, in nations ravaged and fucked with by the empire to the point where all their national leaders are pro-freemarket go US, go empire sellouts, is bloody ridiculous.
I also have no idea by what you mean by
Industrialization to establish a class consciousness amongst the industrial and urban proletariat, is one gist of thought… but that's about it. The idea or notion that unless there was some sort of unified industrial mode of production, it would be hard to get them all to unite or see their similarities… as an observation of capitalism and industrialization; not a prescription.
Some words on where it was thought the revolutionary potential was the *greatest*; sure. But the exclusion, and shit like 'thing that according to orthodox marxism wouldn't occur'? Where do you get that from?
It seems like you read marx's observations, as deterministic biblical and prescriptive truth, or some shit. "This is most likely to occur like this" == "This can ONLY EVER occur like this!"?
Whatever.
Luke Evans
i retract myself, you're right, summarising i should say that the conditions in the countries where the biggests revolutions happened were pretty peculiar (being ignored by capitalist superpowers, after imperialist wars)
at least we can agree that revolutions are much more probable to take place in the third world, because that's where the vast majority of exploitated workers live, and what actual historical facts had shown?
Mason Barnes
First world workers aren't even going to revolt, much less conduct a revolution, and never have. Occupy Wall Street wasn't anything close to a revolt. The labor protests in France, while admirable, aren't even a revolt. Greece is probably the closest thing to a revolution in the FW but even then it would be hijacked by the sellout left like Syriza.
He actually wrote, that? My dislike for Unruhe kind of just keeps growing. That's more or less the capitalist and right wing rhetoric of "stop complaining you fucking lefty, you wouldn't have anything if not for us" - and shows _zero_ understanding of economics, as in you could have a complete welfare system, within a monetary system, with equal benefits and rights for all, even in the so-called poorest of nations as they have nothing to do with anything than allocations of labour itself… the only exception being if food production domestically was completely eradicated, in which case you would have one gigantic problem.
Jacob Davis
To be fair, Unruhe is a terrible example of Third Worldism. He's nothing more than a Stalin fanboy who loves the DPRK, perhaps moreso than Mao's China.
Elijah Price
What I don't like about all Maoists (and not just the 3rd worldist type) is that with information from the archives now available that Mao was far more critical of Stalin than previously thought compared to the official Maoist view
Please tell us how MIM, LLCO or any other third-worldists are great examples of revolutionary politics
Parker Collins
Even I will make excuses for Stalin (even though I have zero support for Stalin, and I'd probably have been considered (if even noticed) a political dissident under Stalin); that shit has a point… historical contextual points. I dislike Stalin, but I don't think he was stupid.
I'm strongly suspecting Unruhe, is stupid.
Zachary Baker
Yes, because unlike RAIM, Unruhe doesn't claim Marxism is "eurocentric" or that Mao became a Marxist because his "mind was colonized" or whatever post-Saidian bullshit they like to pull.
Lincoln Bailey
LLCO is most likely a pig front. Their main guy, Prairie Fire, was arrested back in May for drug trafficking, and that wasn't his first. Given how pigs often give arrested hustlers the option of informant work to get out of heavy-duty jail time, it's easy to see how the LLCO may have very well been a fraudulent org. to lure in would-be leftist militants.
Jonathan Collins
it's an interesting article, but sadly he fails debunking superexploitation as he completely ignore the fact that the third world doesn't have factories and THAT kind of means of production, but they're on it's own gigantic factories owned by multinationals, and the work-force of it's citizens is still stolen.
for practical uses, the only thing this guy said is that unindustrialized countries doesn't have industrial workers (duh). but he has ignored the fact that almost every third world country works as a producer of raw material for industrial,first worldist countries.
why are industrial workers more important than any other type of worker? (like peasantry or mine-workers)
Ethan Thomas
The problem with Jason, aside from all of his theoretical inconsistencies (including his moralism and his "look at deez charts!" explanations as to why there are no first world workers) is how little he knows about non-western cultures. Third Worldism amounts to LARPing. "Hurrr durr fuck the first world the third world are my only comrades." Does Unruhe really believe he could just walk into a Naxal meeting with his boorish attitude and narcissistic drama queen behaviors? For him, it's all a game.
Noah Fisher
Yes, that's the OP's point: the third world is still mostly agrarian, and the majority of its industries are controlled by first world corporations. So, why wouldn't a third worldist advocate a kind of revival of the countryside?
Cameron Smith
so this never was an anti-mtw thread?, god, i used my shitposting flag for nothing…
at least am i right saying mtw is just evolved marxism?
Zachary Garcia
MTW has nothing to do with Marxism. It's nothing more than Dependency Theory mixed with postcolonial theory.
Robert Morris
They don't control the factories though, and we're seeing how Venezuela is currently sinking because Chavez didn't seize industry.
Christopher Williams
i mean, is superexploitation real? will the global revolution start in the third world? why is the industrial proletariat more important than peasantry, mine workers and fishermen?
Maoism Third Worldism in practice would be the Khmer Rouge x10.
How else would they go about "re-proletarianizing" the First World?
Jaxson King
FYI, this literally does sound like a neocon argument: we need to bring them democracy so they can have communism.
Kayden Phillips
nothing new there
Isaac Lee
shitty shitty comprehension. completely evading every point in the article. try again, fag
Gavin Rogers
tl; dr
make a summary asshat
Xavier Lewis
read, shitstain
Jordan Rogers
Many of the ultra-liberal idpol types are anti-Marxists in practice, focused on identitarian struggle and supportive of pretty much anything reactionary as long as it's done by a brown person. It's an inversion of Holla Forums thought.
Michael King
Yes. They're the same people who truly believe Nasser, Gaddafi, Mugabe, Hamas, the government of Eritrea, modern North Korea, Putin, and everyone else despised by the west was/is somehow a good communist.
John Davis
lel, one of my family members basically believes Putin can do no wrong because he's against America and is "anti-imperialist" and for "multi-polarity" along with Assad and the like. Basically, anyone who is against America is actually good, even if they are bad, and anything indicating otherwise is just American propaganda.
Angel Carter
I've even seen anarchists claim Putin isn't imperialist (many Syrians, Chechens, Ukrainians, and Georgians would beg to differ). "B-b-but he's NOT American so it's okay!!!"
William Cox
All just American agents trying to prevent people from seeing the light. Ukranians, in particular. Trust me, it was on RT and Sputnik, it must be true.
Justin Stewart
i barely speak english, how am i supposed to read all that 100 gazilion horseshit of marxist fundamentalism?
just point where my reasoning goes shitty:
it seem to be that maoism-third wordlism descrives and predict better the history than orthodox marxism, unless fascism is what marx actually predicted.
Jacob Lee
every one of the assertions you posted is at odds with Marxist theory and just empirically false. If you want to continue this debate, learn English and read the links OR debate with a real Marxist in your native language.
Nicholas Hall
this is how leftcoms debate ._.
just admit that every single attempt of revolution has taken place in the third world, because orthodox marxism is incomplete and marx licked my balls.
also:
wut
Adrian Edwards
you will get better the more you read
besides, you can always read a paragraph twice or three times, thats how I got better at english
Jaxson Bailey
de donde sos?
Wyatt Garcia
mexico, pero como sabias que era hispano?
Camden Thomas
por tu acento, duh.
Ethan Ortiz
pero que acento si todo es escrito
eres CIA???
Charles Moore
...
Brayden Price
Post more jason memes, pls
Jeremiah Campbell
Chico androide te estamos vigilando y vamos a desmadrar tu sistema operativo.
