The Economic Calculation Problem

What is Holla Forums's solution to the Economic Calculation Problem? Before anybody drops the decentralized planning or computer meme, I think it's necessary to explain the economic calculation problem.

The Economic Calculation Problem was a critique of Socialism made by Mises in his book Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth. In it he demonstrated that without market signals and pricing, rational production becomes incredibly difficult. This isn't a problem that can be solved with decentralized planning. We live in a world where there are trillions of goods and service interrelations. Using any type of planning to organize this is impossible, or at the very least near impossible. Decentralized planning and computers fail to meet the preference aggregation argument. Computational difficulty was never the main argument.

Now, my question is, how can economic calculation and rational production occur in a socialist society that lacks all price signals?

Other urls found in this thread:

ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
arxiv.org/pdf/1002.2284.pdf
ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/calculation_debate.pdf
geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/07/iq-is-mostly-inherited-new-research-suggests/
scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Nisbett-et-al.-2012.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Why isn't there "usual answers to dumb question" thread attached? With all the pdf's about State Capitalism and Calculation "Problem"?

Skip to Chapter 3:

ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/

What is capitalism's solution to the "economic calculation problem"?

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Computers are pretty fucking good fam. By the time Socialism comes about we can use quantum computers for this shit. Actually we could probably use them now.

This was a legitimate argument in the early 20th century, not anymore.

arxiv.org/pdf/1002.2284.pdf

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ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/calculation_debate.pdf

Capitalism deals with the economic calculation problem by directing blame away from industry and the capitalist class. So whenever mismanagement or economic crises caused by speculation or incompetence leave people impoverished or hungry, the population is tricked into blaming either themselves, or the interference of government in business.

How could a socialist planned economy do the same?

So let me get this straight. Under socialism we will use quantum computers to simulate a market? And this would be on a global scale? Sure would be useful for somebody looking to enrich themselves to get a shot of that computer.

Any power can be abused. There would be safeguards to prevent such a scenario.

Meh. I still don't see the point of using a computer to simulate markets. Once the essentials of life are met the market is driven by desire for stuffs. ie. an element of human nature.

this

Also, dont you realise that money is just a reflection of the desire for certain products with a given budget for a given person in a given society? Its just information.

Also, the calculation problem basically boils down to this:

If lots of decentralized companies, using computers, can plan an economy using ONLY prices then you can make a computer system to replicate that and make it better by simply sharing the information.

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We don't even need a fucking quantum computer. Its called modern computers and distributed computing.

Yea its totally not going to stick out if someone is getting paid ridiculous amounts of money. Do you honestly think people are just going to sit on their ass and be like "oh well what do you do about it just the way it is".

Also, you dont have the slightest grasp on computers fucking hell, there's plenty of ways to ensure people can't fuck with it such as checking against multiple logs or machines and see if its correct.

People like stuff. People enjoy novelty. People have built in survival mechanisms. Call it what you will but it's human fucking nature.

False.

Novelty is not a new slightly new flavour or candy

which is not wanting 5 cars.

I call it a meme

Like receiving the full value of their labor
Which is why socialism is necessary to provide people with the luxury time and opportunity to enjoy novelty
Which is why communism is necessary to ensure human survival
It's not an argument though

So many good points all over the place. How will I ever recover?


You're saying people don't like trinkets? Funny. Some of the earliest human creations are trinkets that serve on purpose other than looking a bit flash.


Novelty is anything new and unusual, unless you're working from a different dictionary than I am?


No but in-built survival mechanism IS an aspect of human nature,. the existence of what user above apparently disputes.


Well you have a good time with that.

Sure it is. Well at least as much so as saying 'not an argument'.

Its not an argument. You claim shit without anything to back it up, claiming all these things are intrinsic to the human dna, its nature.

You can't prove any of that.

And this is exactly the kind of grey area that that you PoMo neo-lefty faggots love so much. Do you realise how much you sound like global warming skeptics?

Honestly, you acknowledge all that I presented as evidence to be true so really all we're discussing here is what to call these aspects of humanity. Presumably you've a better term than human nature to explain human proclivities?

What? How is studying human behaviour in a non-controlled environment the same as doing hard science that proves that co2 and other greenhouse gasses absorb infra-red light that normally radiates back into space, thus heating up earth, which we can see the effects of in numerical data?

You wot m8? Such as?

This entire thing about MUH YUMAN NATJUR boils down to nurture vs nature. As any good marxist I think most of human behaviour is shaped by their material conditions (nurture), of which I see evidence in the world and history, including your "people liked to wear trinkets to show they had money" argument.

Because you ignore the bulk of evidence in favour of the interpretations that suit your favoured outcome. You claim victory because human nature is not falsifiably demonstrable. This is exactly how global warming 'skeptics' operate.


Yes it does. And current evidence is showing that a lot of the intellectual development in humans is genetic. Some of these genetic traits will manifest as preferences. When these preferences are near universal they can be considered natural.

Give me the evidence mate. Give me that sweet science that proves using the scientific methode of controlled environments that whatever you claim to be human nature is actually human nature.

No, they ignore rock-solid science done in controlled environments, call global warming "natural", to push their own views.


Such as?

Such as? Any proofs, papers, research?


See quote up above. The fact that lots of people do something does not mean its human nature. Lots of people used to rape and pillage, raping and pillaging was normal and war was just human nature. So was feudalism, that also was just human nature.

Yet here we are. We dont kill the neighbouring village's men and take their wives as slaves, we abhor slavery, we don't have feudalism anymore, we do not perform human sacrifices anymore. But hey, I guess if it happens a lot in similar circumstances that all humans find themselves in, that means its genetic and not how they are raised and use their brains to not die.

geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/01/07/iq-is-mostly-inherited-new-research-suggests/

From intellectual capacity AND upbringing comes personality.


Some people have defective brains. I'm considering human nature to be inherent to people who are neurotypical.

You're essentially arguing for the 'blank slate' model of human development. Last I heard this has been BTFO.

He's not arguing that. He's saying human nature isn't immutable like you're claming. You have not substantiated your claim, all you did was post an article about how IQ may be inheritable.

You completely skimmed over the part at the end where he listed a bunch of activities that we no longer engage in but were quite "natural" in the past. Human nature is ever changing and dependant on material conditions. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, fuck off.

so you're conceding the point?
If Upbringing does effect us this way then human nature isn't immutable dum dum

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some things never change…
Gensen fanboys will make sure that his legacy is still there, waiting…
can't wait to see new govenrment sterilization programs not on solid genetic (as in genetic diseases) grounds, but on the grounds of IQ tests
like in the good old days
bright future is so bright

isn't this sunglas-maymay supposed to make fun of the ideology displayed on the circle?
because this one is rather hilarious and i like it alot

That parenting does not affect intellectual ability has been known for a very long time. They are seriously contending that because this one specific non-biological factor in human development does not have an effect, the real cause is automatically genes. It's clickbait for normies, whom are obsessed with IQ because they want their magic societal-worth number to make them feel special.

The heritability of IQ is not a static percentage, it is statistically measured and changes based on circumstance. For poor children, it is only about 25% inherited, and a fair portion of that percentage is single-gene disorders like Down syndrome.

This explains it much better, and is written by the leading experts in human intelligence, including an ex-president of the APA:

scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Nisbett-et-al.-2012.pdf

Pretending markets are efficient and rational is like pretending Twitch Plays Pokemon is efficient and rational

Ah, the usual meme, where people with no knowdlege of complexity argue about the complexity of planning.
The economic calculation problem simply notes (its by no means an original discovery) that there are a lot of relationships on a economy, so it must be hard to process them. That's more or less the original Austrian version of this problem. Lets try and make it a bit less ambiguous.

In order to solve the constraints posed by an economy, a common method called linear programming is used. Every relationship (for example x < 23y + n) is written down, and a linear programming solver can be used (or if its a really simple case, you can solve it by hand). The method to solve general linear programming (actually, not just linear, but convex programming, a wider range of problems) is in what's called the polinomial complexity class (meaning that it scales with the dimensions of the problem with a polinomial factor). That doesn't mean it is simple, a problem might have a complexity of, for example, n^335(n=1, complexity = 355, n=2, complexity = over 700 googols. The actual figure is somewhere about n^3.5, which is still a tremendous cost), which is a factor that quickly leaves big problems out of the question, even if polinomially complex problems are considered "tractable", or feasible. Even in the modern era, it would take And since economies have millions of products and trillions of relationships, the problem of planning is deemed impossible, and they are quite right.

But then the Austrians stop. They don't continue to pursue the implications that this result implies. Because, as any free marketer will tell you, the calculation problem is nonetheless solved. The "magic" of the free market, they call it. Magic indeed. How can an unguided process solve a problem too complex for all computers ever built?

Simple. It doesn't. The calculation problem is impossible to solve given current technology, no matter whether you distribute it, or localize it, or get better computers and better algorithms. Yet still prices are made. Why? Because markets search local minima, I'll explain.
Imagine a plot of the resulting cost (in the eyes of the burgeoise) of a certain product being a certain price. We might imagine a very steep curve in the lowest prices, coming to a halt at a price, going up as demand decreases, and finally going down again as it becomes luxury. That's the idealized plot, one that the markets could very well solve. But reality is bumpy. Maybe customers don't like odd prices. Maybe changing the price too much in a row will cause people to distrust it. But every single burgeoise does the same: they guess a price, and perhaps try lowering it until the cost would start rising again. That's not an optimal solution, thats a partial solution. That's the ugly truth: if economy is intractable, then markets are inefficient. AND simulating this process would be extremely easy, probably better than a normal market, which has several limitations on information transmission that a computer does not.

Main source (a market socialist which isn't completely right in a couple points: bactra.org/weblog/918.html