Holla Forums's moderation

pol owns this board and all of 8 chan. I know you guys don't like bunkerchan but how much shit are you going to let pol put you through before you leave

how can we purge if none of the mods will do anything about it?

Probably not. This is why there is still a considerable amount to be planned. Alternatively, we could just make another board on Holla Forums.

I'm saying that we need to strip the current mods of their powers since half the time they're not using them when needed and the other half when using them are still inappropriate applications thereof.

what if it's the mods that need to purged?

I mean for gods sake this is a socialist board, how can there be a ruling class?

We do need janitors, just not the ones we have now. The problem with chans being anonymous is that only users of cancerous IRC circlejerks etc. are invited to be mods

I've been thinking about making a specifically libertarian socialist board for a while, I feel like we co-ordinate better without autistic covert Holla Forumsack tankies shitting everything up

Will I be called a tankie for being a democratic state socialist?

We should attempt to do a revolution on Holla Forums

I think think there are several ways this can be achieved for example we could ddos and dox the mods and reveal their information until they give into our demands

And that's exactly why I'm saying to purge, since right now they are absolutely useless.

The only problem will be that a lot of the present, honest leftists won't be directed there totally, and really I loathe the idea that we'd have to separate. But whatever must be done should be…

I know what you mean, I'm just saying none of us have the power to choose our mods, only mods have that power, so we can't do shit.

No, that's why I said libertarian socialist not specifically anarchist

How would that solve any of our problems?

I've been on a lot of boards and I've never seen mods be 'overthrown' ever. They have ultimate power. The only way to subvert them is through entryism, which is probably what happened to the current mod team. 100% of mods will just kill the site rather than be forced to do anything by the users

We could advertise here and tbh most of the best posters here are libertarian.

Also I think we can get more people into libertarian socialism than Leninism. None of the meme rebuttals work against libertarian socialism

It's more normie friendly. I've been thinking this for a while but now seems like a good time

Someone could socially engineer the BO to give her password up

You guys do know that we have /anarcho/ and /postleftypol/ right?

I may be a filthy anarkiddie but I make it a policy that I won't ban M-L's as long as they don't make shitposty threads trying to debate with anarchists. And non-anarchist libertarian socialists are chill

post left and enforced anarchism are total cancer though

Hey n1x,
May I have a (You), please?

WEW

/postleftypol/ is really a parody of Holla Forums. /anarcho/ is the semi-serious board for anarchists. But like I said I allow M-Ls to post there as well as long as they don't shitpost about how STALIN DID LITERALLY NOTHING WRONG or ANARCHISTS JUST WANT TO MAKE IT A STATE AND CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE LOLOLOLOLOL

Take it my fam it's all yours.

see

I don't want to be on an anarcho board because I'm not an anarchist. Also, even if I don't get banned it will be 'lol that's not anarchism get off my board tankie' etc etc.

=3 nya nya

anyone up for a /marksoc/ board

as cool as that would be I'm not sure we'd have enough posters to keep it going and splitting up leftypol would just reduce what little clout we already have

Why not a Situationist board while we're at it? Or an anarcho-nihilist board? Or a De Leonist board? Or a Posadist board?

Actually the last one would probably get more users than Holla Forums

Then enjoy the nonsense on Holla Forums :^)

Says the guy shilling /anarcho/

Well, at least I don't have to put up with as many nihilists over here

This is why the right fucking wins all the damn time. It seems to be a habit of the left to dis-integrate. Look at what the Tory party did with their leadership, they sorted it out in a couple of weeks. Being opposed to non-practicality is one of the ideological elements of conservatism that the left can really learn from. Splitting into separate ism-boards would be a total failure.

Leftists devolving into clout, cronyism, and corruption? SAY IT AIN'T SO JOE

I think most of us agree with this but when the mod team is fucked there's not much that can really be done to save some place

The left is so obsessed with its ethical subjectivism that it can't handle even the slightest dose of raw pragmatism anymore. Everyone needs their own little circlejerk commune and in the end it means you have no unity, you have no organization. Rule by consensus and committee strips away what little ingenuity that could've been achieved.

Maybe when Trump's in the White House the left will finally wake the fuck up.

I'm mostly down but I fear sectarianism. We already don't have many Lelinists and they certainly couldn't support their own board (though I guess most of them could go to Bunkerchan, which is pretty ML as it stands).

I think we should have it be "a libertarian socialist board, but leninists can post too as long as they're not straight-up tankies".

You know what, just don't even call it libertarian since you're already describing Holla Forums with less shitposting. Just call the board /left/, which isn't taken

p-pls no bulli

wewie
Also BO is a dyke.

Forgot to turn that damn thing off

It's still there

I don't strictly have an issue with Leninists, the people who are pure cancer are the actual Stalinists, the 'le economically liberal and social conservative' memers, the SJWs, and the post-left/edgelords.

They're the only people I think we should actively work against. Oh and pol of course.

You're an idiot you think the talk about separating from this board is about an ideology per se and not the atrocious moderation.

>Holla Forums shitposting in the thread LITERALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT MODS DOING NOTHING ABOUT Holla Forums SHITPOSTING
Amazing.

De Leonism is fine. My point was that having a market socialist board would be unnecessarily specific and would get no users.

Anarchism and Marxism are literally the two biggest tendencies in anti-capitalist politics, and the differences between the two are often very significant. It makes sense to have boards dedicated to those two tendencies.

bumping over the bait

Nowhere did what I said imply that. Only just now has someone mentioned simply making another /left/ board. I was complaining about separating into different ideologies and that's what all the suggestions were. I realise the reason to make any new board at all was because of the moderation, that is besides any of what I said anyway.

The better solution would be to remove the moderation here, and replace them, or nuke the board, and replace it with them.

Of course, but that's impossible.

Hey Comrades! Penis poster here! Don't dissent! The mods and I are Comrades! true Leftists! We will send you to the gulag if you dissent! True Leftist style!

...

All right how about:
Of course, but that's impossible unless you SE the BO, as someone has suggested, and the one/group who hacks, has to have some people they trust to install as the new moderators immediately.
Oh wait, that's pretty much the same as
Of course, but that's impossible.

It's terrible putting all of your faith in a small group of powerful government/moderator figures. Thy never seem to do the job right. Leftism! Comrades rejoice! We'll have everything fixed sometime next month!

Ah I see you're a Holla Forums poster, we'll all stop replying to you now, but before that can I try and point you clearly don't know what it is you're so against, that's a really fucking pathetic situation to be in. The left is not essentially about big government. Communism is totally stateless for fucks sake, did you even know that tidbit? (please don't bother replying)

Communism in theory works!

Stop posting in fucking bait threads.

Even saving a reply is reason enough for them to keep doing it.

If you reply to bait at all then you are the reason that this ahit happens; not mods.

wew

I know that, I can dream though, can't I?
I'm not even sure anarchists and Marxists should each have their own board. /marx/ is kill and /anarcho/ is small. I think having a unified board for now and maybe generals is best for now.

Definitely agree with you on all that.

Hello Comrade, we should spend time in Venezuela. It's a socialist stronghold! Heaven on earth for Comrades like us!

I would bet that there are at least 100 posters on Holla Forums who are Holla Forumsyps. This strategy of ignoring the bait doesn't fucking work when Holla Forums can keep false flagging and bumping their own bait threads until the newfags start to believe their shit. That, and other reactionaries can show up and start "Me too"ing until everyone who isn't really committed to the board has either fallen to the groupthink or has left because the whole community has been astroturfed.

This shit happens time and time again and Holla Forums is no exception to it. DIsavowing whatever power we have on our own space is just going to lead to the same thing happening.

would it kill you to use some more original shock images

i mean got used to these ones being spammed in 2009

Which is exactly what goreposter has been doing.

As if I'm going to do anything other than grab images off the top of my first search. I'm shit-posting on a stupid Holla Forums Holla Forums, give me credit for even coming back a third time…

The problem with having a unified board is that, no matter how good the moderators' intentions are, there's nothing you can do to stop the mods from making decisions that are bent towards their own political views. But the mods have to be able to do their fucking jobs too, otherwise the lowest common denominator on imageboards will start to creep in and annihilate all good discussion.

We've already seen on Holla Forums what happens when you try to be all-inclusive to "leftist" ideologies. "Leftism" is enough of a vague and catch-all term that it can be used in any manner by whoever has power.

He's not even trying. Not every Holla Forumsyp lacks tact.

Third one is CP, you dumb nigger.

But its not even that difficult to mod.
you just follow what its says in the FAQ

But they aren't deleting shit posts and they are deleting legit stuff.
Its simple, don't delete anything thats not shitposting or b8ing

I would like to point out that virtue signalling redditors from /r/The_Donald have been flooding the shit out of Holla Forums since the election started as well, driving away many of the original userbase. Hopefully all of this will end once the US elections do.

COME TO BUNKERCHAN

Bunkerchan can handle the traffic. The only thing that we need to do is increase the amount of mods.

You clearly never been to bunkerchan, quit sucking prickly's dick.

The rules that are set in the FAQ are subject to interpretation - and the rules originally set are determined by the ideology of the BO. There's no such thing as neutrality.

This sounds pretty glorious tbh. Mostly /lit/ and occasional news or question threads, none of those "DAE anarkiddies don't read theory" or "you guys are liberal cucks" threads. I'm kind of afraid of having a board with stricter mod policies, cuz then it might turn into leddit.

Wew I've never even associated with Prickly, I'm just repeating what I've heard.

If it's not ML dominated then what ideology dominates it?

Just be stricter about leftism being anti-hierarchy, so you could prune Nazbols and SJWs, as well as Stalinists (for endorsing abuse of authority).

Holla Forums really needs to have a bumplock-by-popular-vote and auto-hide-by-popular-vote systems, then we wouldn't even need mods. But since that's not going to happen I think all we need to do is to make sure the mods stick to a strict but minimal ruleset. Something like-

Basically no personal attacks.

Sounds ridiculous, lad. Banning b8 and shitposting is fine, but what you're talking about could easily be used as a justification for banning wrongthink.

Plus, if we had popular vote based anything, Holla Forums would immediately come in and use it to ruin the board for their own purposes.

you're a moron, Lares.

Hegelism

You won't change anything here because the BO is barely active and when he is here, he act like a liberal dipshit tolerating shitposting. Mark my words, the situation you see right now is the product of the BO being a fucking moron.

Our best bet is to move the fuck out of here, disregarding potential leftists, rather than stay in this Holla Forums infested shithole.

I think it is a quite appropriate moment to tell you to move back to reddit.

But I like the fact that we're hanging on in the den of right wing trolling (or whatever).

Can't we just get BO to hand over to someone else? Like Catgirlposter?

Moderators have lives too you know.
They don't have time to monitor the board 24/7.
Maybe having more moderators would help.

You already know that I offered to help and I explained to you what I would do, prickly.

So why do good topics and relatively inoffensive posts get removed though? I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to join the mod team but I bet you have to participate in some off-board clique right?

that's literally the definition tho

There is no off-board clique that I am aware of. Mods can send private messages to each other, but I think that feature is used pretty rarely.

It might appear like posts disappear out of the blue because as I mentioned earlier, there are not enough mods for 24/7 moderation. As evidenced by the banlist, bans and mod activity in general happen in bursts.

How does anyone get picked to be a mod then other than knowing someone?

I don't have a problem with removing obvious shitposts and bait but sometimes it seems like just fun topics are removed. And then other times gore and shit is up for hours. Obviously the mods can't be everywhere at once but… I don't know. Maybe there just needs to be more mods but with a strict policy: ie. if a mod deletes something the other mods think they shouldn't have, they get one warning or something then the next time they're out.

It appears to me that all the mods except for one guy were selected via an email application process when BO was looking for moderators. This was a year or two ago.

KEK is the BO even alive still?

Actually, BO is pretty active.

Well, clearly we need some more then. Why not do another appeal? I'd apply.

This. The board clearly is in need of mods, given the amount of shit that gets to slide entirely by.

Just to illustrate, these are the posts that can be removed from the board because they fall under these three categories:

I would remove all these posts if I were a mod and make a sticky/cyclethread for "Things that don't deserve their own thread".

Probably missed a few too.

too nofunallowed, imo we should allow topics that are fun. However I think we should fold 'liberals did X' and 'capitalism does X' into umbrella topics

People barely post on this board as is, taking down threads just because you don't like them is nigh autistic. It's not like they're preventing serious discussion by existing.

Ok ok, I promise I won't be too harsh on "fun" threads in the unlikely even I get chosen to be mod.

iirc NationShits mods could transfer threads from one board to another, is it possible to transfer these threads to /leftyb/? Can this site do that?

I dunno who to email, but I go on here pretty regularly so I could at the very least remove the Holla Forums shitposts a bit faster.

thx

wew

"No personal attacks" hardly means "disagreeing with me". More like "all anarchists are anarkiddies why do anarchists not understand theory" etc.

Holla Forums is doing the same thing to /christian/ as well. Nearly every day, without fail, someone makes a thread about reconciling Nazism with Christianity. The Holla Forumslution leaks over into other threads as well, and they all get filled up with we wuz knights n shiet. If Holla Forums can come up with some means of restraining them, most other boards would be delighted to hear about it.

I'll apply if the BO ever opens up positions again. I live on the other side of the world to burgers so I could clean things up a bit while they sleep. You know, spank n1x, bumplock A.W. and e-celeb threads, ban obvious Holla Forumsyps or ironic shitposters, and so on.

I would give you A+++ mod status.
BO pls mod this person immediately!

We need this.

discipline me senpai~~

implying I won't just use a VPN to get around you scapegoating me

Face it. Holla Forums is anti-Marxist.

Are retarded by definition.

Go >>/marx/

So, this thread went from "there isn't enough moderation and when there is it's selective", which is true. Don't know about how selective it is, but there isn't enough. We get filled with shitposting and bait everyday.
To "it's because of Tankies" and "go to bunker". It's not because tankies. It's because shitposting is rampant and reddit and pol are having a pest-fest.
To "mods have lives too". I know that. I knew that was the reason all along, but, if the vanguard cannot do it's job, the vanguard has to either change or more added. Plain Leninism.

So, this board needs more neets that want to do basic moddaration reguraly.

I totally agree with OP. Free speech IS NOT HATE SPEECH OR BIGGOTRY POSTED SOLELY TO MAKE SMART PEOPLE LIKE US MAD

.. you don't get it do you?

I'll get banned more often?

Get some actual rules, FFS. People aren't even aware it's SFW board. Purging some mods would also help.

It is also nigh unreadable white-on-black.

Well, what's the point then?

That's not even funny.

This tbqh. Even /marx/ managed to get the hint.

Man up, fag.

I remember that thread, what is your beef with Wolff exactly?

The place went to shit ever after BO became a fag during the Ferguson events, where he banned people for having different opinions than him, even if opinions on the matter were presented in a reasonable and not necessarily Holla Forumsack manner. Ever since then, people have been banned for really little shit, because the mods are on a power trip and believe they are above everything.

I left as soon as I saw the official statement on banning anyone who thought the Ferguson riots were maybe not ultimately correct, either in intentions or in execution. That was just way too much of a twisting to the "no Holla Forums shit" rule for me to take.

Someone please make /redpol/ or something. I will gladly return to this board if the mods there don't happen to be such enormous faggots.

The problem definitely isn't that the mods are too ban-happy. If they were remotely ban-happy there wouldn't be half as much shit on the catalog. They might ban people for stupid reasons, but we certainly do need them to ban some people.

I was one of those complaining about the mods being too ban happy back in the day… … and now it's like we have no mods at all!

Yep.
Except none of this happened.
There was a pinned thread about Fergunson on the first page where people could post whatever they want about it. Posts about it posted outside that thread were deleted to contain the huge amount of spam going on and that was pretty much just it.
Funny that has been like one or two years already but Holla Forumsyps still didn't got tired of lying about it. The autism is real.

Cut that shit out. Holla Forumsacks lie about lots of things, such as Holla Forums actually being created by them AFTER Ferguson to trap leftists in a board controlled by the, but that shit was 100% real and if Drybones hadn't decided to be a faggot about the archive, I would prove you wrong right now.

What you say about a Ferguson sticky was true. What you didn't see, is that inside that same sticky or in the old rule discussion thread (yeah, before mod decided to go full Kim Jong-un, rules were decided by committee), I don't know which one, the BO explicitly stated that being a leftist and being against Ferguson was an oxymoron and therefore all negative discussion of Ferguson was to be banned from the sticky because they were infiltrated Holla Forumsacks.

Maybe it's not Holla Forumsacks who are lying about this. Maybe it's oldfags who became disillusioned with this board.

I've repeatedly said I will do it, but BO is reluctant to accept applications.

That's terrible. Why can't we have nice things? What is it with mods and god complexes?

We're dead. This is hell.

;_;

You're quite new to leftism, aren't you?

I was just thinking the same thing about Stalinism et al myself actually. But it's strange to me that with the way the internet is there seems to be no expectation of democracy. We acknowledge it's basically a public resource now so why do we tolerate unaccountable figures with ultimate power having control over it? From the corporations to the moderators. Down with the tyrants, user war now!

Problem with that is that non-users are in the majority and are allowed to vote.

It would be like letting all the united states citizens vote in elections in germany.

Democratizing the Internet is sometihng we really should push for.
Starting with this board, i wonder how i can be done? More moderators? Moderator switching regularly? The board owner thing is also quite a limitation. You could have a part of the board sharing the password, but on the other hand it can make the board vulnerable. And hat about entryism? Or you make a website with registration but you lose the benefit of anonymity. Ain't simple.

I've actually got an idea for a new imageboard format to solve this problem.

The back-end of the system contains posts categorised by tags. Each post has exactly one tag associated with it. Tags roughly correspond to what we currently think of as boards. There might be an #a tag for anime, or a #u tag for yuri. Only illegal posts get deleted from the system.

The front end consists of boards. These boards are each associated with a single tag and provide a way to view and create posts with that tag. Boards have moderators who can filter posts by banning particular IPs or blocking particular posts. They could even implement a whitelist if they really wanted to. Many boards can be associated with a single tag. For example, you could have /a/ and /new_a/ both pointed at the #a tag. Posts made to /a/ would show up in /a_new/ and vice versa. If the /a/ mods wanted to ban a shitposter from /a_new/ they could, but the shitposter could still post on /a_new/. This would allow a seamless transition from one board to another. If you don't like the hotpockets on one board, just create a new one and point it at the same tag. It will function as an exact mirror, minus censorship. Importantly, there should not be an option to filter posts based on which board they originated from. All boards are equal in that regard.

Moderation will always be autocratic. He who owns the server can do what ever he wants.

To be fair, the admin usually isn't the problem. On Holla Forums it has been the shitty moderators and shitty users more than anything.

t. pro monarchist circa 1600

It's better moderation than Holla Forums gets. I was banned permanently from Holla Forums for politely asking about policy changes and changes to material conditions under a theoretically Not Socialist state. I asked simply what they were, not even mentioning anything about myself, and of course the squealing was immediate and shrill. Holla Forums is relatively free of moderation that shitty.

Holla Forums's moderation is ignorant and anti-intellectual but quite effective at achieving their goals. The same strictness of moderation with a better grounding in theory would go a long way to improving Holla Forums.

this post is wrong

ban shit threads
ban pol threads
ban shit posters

He pretends to be a Marxist. He isn't.
He also lies a lot to cover this up.

Do you have anything to back this up?

No, he's just not an ML. Fuck off tankie.

Cultural Marxism is not Marxism.

"Stalin was a gud boy, he dindu nuffin wrong"

Nobody likes you.

You're a shitposter, n1x.

FTFY

Wolff borrows a lot from Althusser, a structural marxist, which is the opposite of the "cultural" marxism of the frankfurt school.

Are you saying that Wolff is Marxist?

Because the question is if you can have "Marxism" that has nothing to do with with ML, but still be Marxist.

And don't drag in Althusser here, unless you are ready to prove that structuralism is inherently Marxist concept.

He's a Marxian.
The answer is obviously yes, Stalinist.
You should like Althusser since he considered Marxism a science examining objective structures in society. He didn't like the frankfurt school because of their humanism.

He either is a Marxist or he isn't.

Fancy names for post-Marxist (i.e. anti-Marxist) ideas notwithstanding.

Will there be arguments?

That is irrelevant to the question discussed. Most people don't like Cultural Marxism. That doesn't make every single right-wing jingoistic moron out there a Marxist.

Wolff's intellectual heritage is Marxian economics and Althusser's structural Marxism. Furthermore, it's entirely possible for people to disagree with Marxism-Leninism and remain Marxists. Shocking, I know, but true nonetheless.

How about you justify the claim that ML is the only legitimate Marxism?

I like him
he causes you ldealistic moralfaggots so much butthurt, it's is fucking beautiful

...

That was not my claim. My claim was that you have to have common elements with ML, if you are actually Marxist.

See:

>Wolff's intellectual heritage is Marxian economics and Althusser's structural Marxism.
You surely meant background.

Either way, not every element from post-Marxist ideology is inherently Marxist. If you add extraneous elements to Marxism, those elements do not become Marxist by themselves. If you take them and use them somewhere else for other purpose - they will not magically remain Marxist.

Much more importantly, Wolff's background is irrelevant. What is relevant is his actual works. His "heritage".

Are you trying to pull Snark on me?

Even if you repeat your opinion three times, it will not become truth. You still have to prove the existence of completely anti-ML ideology that remains Marxist.

Is this EU defending for Reich? The irony is palpable here.

...

Right, well, at least you're honest that you can't justify it.
Marxian economics comes from Marx's economics, and structural Marxism is based upon a close reading of Capital in particular, and Marx's later works in general from the German Ideology onwards. In that sense, it does have things in common with ML – without Marx's work, neither could exist.

The rest of your argument is incoherent. If we can't add "extraneous elements" to Marxism then we can't innovate. It becomes a dogmatic, closed system in whi- Oh, right, it basically becomes ML. Pardon me.
Is that what you said to the revisionist at your last show-trial?
No, I don't. I don't regard Marxian economics as anti-ML, same with structural Marxism. They aren't defined by their opposition to ML. Of course, a Stalinist considers anything but ML to be anti-ML ideology, so it's kinda self-fulling, don't you think?

Justify what? Some strawman you invented? Why should I?

Marxism is non-dogmatic. Obviously, you can have things that are different from ML. If you manage to grab power in First World, you don't need Weak Link theory. If you have developed industry of 21st century, you hardly need NEP.

This is not some discovery made by post-Trotskyist American academia. It was said by Lenin and repeated by Stalin numerous times.

And Satanism comes from Christianity.

We are not discussing Althusser here, are we? Why do you keep pretending that we do? You refer to him instead of Wolff all the time. That's two different people, in case there is any doubt.

What is Wolffism based on? Non-Marxist elements of Althusser theories?

See above. Being post-Marxist does not make you Marxist.

It is coherent. You just don't want to understand it.

I shall repeat myself: If you use some analysis method together with Marxism, this method does not become Marxist. And it does not magically transfer Marxism to another ideology it is used together with at later point.

Glorious argumentation here. You forgot to add "millions of innocent victims" and "Socialism doesn't work".

I.e. you intend to persuade people using rhetoric only?

"Stalinist" considers it necessary to have standards. Otherwise it'll be Nаtiоnаl "Socialism" and Cultural "Marxism" all over again.

Wolffist theories do not fit Marxist standards. You can call them Socialist, and I will accept them as Anarcho-Syndicalist, but don't drag in Marx and try to put your words in Lenin's mouth.

You're like that autistic leftcom. Write a few sentences and I get a page of buttpained nitpicking back.
The argumentation of a petulant child.
I'm glad we agree. Why are you arguing with me again?
I've laid it out on the table for you in clear language. If you want, go look it up on wiki. I can't understand it for you, so I won't bother doing it for you either.

Here's another thought: read Althusser, then read Wolff. Maybe then you'll understand, rather than trying to bait me into telling you something you'll pick apart and reject anyway. At least if you do it with the original writings something new might stick in that ideology-muddled brain of yours. Then you'll become a revisionist! Oh no!

See what I mean by incoherent? Rhetorical question, you obviously don't.

I don't even care about bait threads as long as I can talk about politics and don't get banned at random. its a sad day when Holla Forums becomes more spergtastic than Holla Forums

Don't flatter yourself. I'm being bored and slightly drunk.

That's getting increasingly boring.

I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why Wolff is not a Marxist, but a shill.

It is you who is trying to argue otherwise.

Clear language is this: "if Math was used to further Marxist ideas, it is Marxist Math now and anyone who uses a bit of Math now is also Marxist".

This logic is dumb.

I recommend the other approach: you read Marx, then you read Wolff. That way you'll be able to actually argue about Wolff being Marxist. Not about Wolff being influenced by Althusser.

The horrors of being wrong.

Read. Marx. Not someone's regurgitated thoughts about Wolff and Althusser.

Of course you fucking were, we've heard it all before.

wew lad

The irony is palpable.
I agree. Have fun in the other threads your drunken trolling has stirred up.

Stop projecting.

Really starting to hate this fucking picture/saying

It is and always has been a cop-out for people who do not understand their position well enough to argue for it

...