DF Shilling

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Yeah but did tweedle dee and tweedle dorf add mutli core processing yet?

I can't even run the shit on one core

You are a special type of retard. You post in every dwarf fortress thread.

Did the developer fuck your mom or something?

Oh fuck. You could make your own base inside a cave as a snakeman and carry your corpses inside the cave. The stench would probably drive adventurers away.

Just like real life, user!

The game is simple as hell. Just crash a few forts with no survivors until you understand what does what when and where so that the dorfs stop starving/dying/flipping out/etc.
Then go turn a mountain into a giant middle finger and flip off the elves.

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I bet you don't play classics like Deus Ex because they're too old

So now it's MineFortress.

Anything new for Fortress Mode?

Realistically speaking, how hard is it to feed yourself in Adventure Mode while spending your time building a fort? Can you plant crops?

who's this semen demon?

Tamaki Ako apparently

I always told you niggas adventure mode was better than fort mode. And that everything fort mode gave you would eventually be implemented in adventure mode. But you niggas didn't listen. You called me an idiot.
Well I told you so.

Go to bed Today

It'll be easier to control your fortress in fortress mode, though you'll never get to experience losing control after a moody Dwarf snapped and killed you to make a bone artifact.

The only thing that really bothers me about it is 2d top-down graphics on a 3d game. Good grief it takes these assholes fucking forever to create a 3d front-end for this game, at this point it's just a bunch of visualizers that are basically nothing but eye-candy and thus worth precisely dick.

Can you build in trees now or is the crash bug still there?

It'd be fine if the abstraction for viewing up/down wasn't so bad. Trying to figure out what's going on at a cliff, or a single tile up/down more around you is a nightmare and makes the game pretty close to unplayable.

The work order thing sounds cool, building a fortress in adventure mode would be the most tedious shit ever, but I wouldn't mind being able to build and run a house/shop/farm/inn/mercenary company in adventure mode.

Ideally it would look like Dungeon Keeper with characters being 2d sprites and everything else being low detail 3d models. I should probably make some kind of visual representation of what I'm talking about. Honestly if that Cuckold Toady were to provide support for something like this the community would easily supply all the assets.

It's not even that complicated once you get the ball rolling.
Just read the wiki when you're stuck and in a few hours you can play without trouble.

probably warrants a new thread but still

Glorious!

Finally.. a dream realized.

It took me seven fortresses to realize that dwarves drink booze instead of water.
I was spending ages trying to figure out a way to keep everyone hydrated during the winter.

great now they just need to make an interface that normal people can use.

I'm sure they drink water if there is no booze, I know they use the well for cleaning too.

dreams do come true

That's the big question. The game is near unplayable 10 years in now because of FPS death. In the earlier version you could have a 400 pop fort with a ton of animals last for a hundred years and still get 50 FPS. Nowdays you reach 50 fps 5 years in with 30 dwarves and an aggressive animal culling plan.

from my understanding, implementing multi-core processing is probably never going to happen. from how it sounds, it would require so much work that it would be easier to just start over and make an entirely new game.

Use DFHack, newfags.

DFhack isn't a magical solution that makes you gain hundreds of FPS. It helps a bit (or a ton depending on your level of competence), but in the end there's no denying the reality of DF: each update since .31.25 has come with a significant decrease in FPS when it comes to running an indentical fort with the same number of dwarves after the same number of years have passed in identical regions with identical world settings.

Starting with .40, it's pretty much impossible to create a decade-long megaproject without dipping below 20 FPS, no matter how powerful your rig is, no matter how great you are at fort design and no matter how good you are at minimizing FPS death.

I don't really see why DF needs to have everything imaginable.

I can built log cabins in other games but I can't make dorfs make forts in them.

It's easy enough to hunt. Bag a large animal, butcher it, and bring it back and you're good for at least a couple days.

Ability to make an SKS still pending, but the way throwing works you might as well just carry around a pouch full of pebbles.

Dwarves do drink water if there is no booze, but if it's murky water from murky pools they become unhappy, and if they go too long without booze they become slower and production lowers significantly.

A well is important for cleaning and in case the booze is all gone.

a shit character from a shit LN/Manga/Anime about turning a hiki/neet/user into a decent member of society

I haven't started playing in this new world, but it already looks quite interesting from the history.
I guess I should have expecteed it from a world called Lathonushul, "The Mythical Realms".

Whenever I gen a new world, I always take a minute or two to check out the legends. You can always find something interesting.

So.. uhh.. what's the best sprite pack to use?

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I get fucking fussy if it dips below 200. I want to keep my fort nice and small, 2x2 or so.

Here's a "high res" version of the classic tileset I made a while back

Thanks m80

Ya I run in 3x3 and do whatever I can to reduce FPS deaths through DFhack, good fort design, frequent clutter removal, minimal to no liquids, temperatures off, etc, etc. And .40/42 and presumably 43 all still have shitty FPS despite all of this. I can still have fun with my wereanimal forts in .34 though, so it's all good.

All I've ever wanted is to be able to create a fully functional fortress with a strong military, a booming economy, and a a few hundred square miles of traps surrounding it, and then retire it to AI control, go select a "Continue History Generation" option, and push the game another 100 years into the future, and then trace the history of my fortress and the descendents of its greatest heroes.
Would they be snuffed out by the next goblin or necromancer invasion? Would they be crushed by a double bronze colossus / forgotten beast invasion? Would they pierce the nine ring circus and cause their home biome to become "terrifying"? Or would they send out army after army, conquering the lands and purging filthy lower races like elfs, goblins and humans in an unstoppable wave of steel and blood?

That's what I want to see implemented eventually. Adventure mode is too small scale, fortress mode is nice and medium-scale but becomes boring after a while. I want the Grand Strategy layer, or even just Legends Mode on steroids.

I cant even figure out the most basic shit like giving orders. Every time I try to get into it im just messing with shit trying to figure out what to do, but I'm so fucking retarded it seems not even tutorials can help me.

You don't give orders, really. You designate work areas, and the dwarves do the work automatically based on their assigned broad job categories.

POST YFW

the worst part is, I go through a cycle

every time I think "alright this game looks awesome, if I could play it. I'll give it another go"

so I install the latest version and have to spend time looking up more tutorials learning the stuff and commands I forgot. And I eventually get bored and save and quit the game, thinking "I'll continue this next time."

And I don't. Until I see something that makes me want to try again. And the cycle continues.

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So we can now destroy blocks in adventure mode?

Can I finally tear through buildings with ridiculously long layouts?

Playing DF is doing a lot of simple things in a strict order to get the results you want. While it may appear complex, every process is basically a straight line. if tutorials aren't helping you can just ask more experienced players how to do things.

No and no.

You can't build on an established site, and you can't dig/destroy blocks period, aside from cutting down trees.

Well looks like the adventure mode shack was a failure. I figured out how to build walls, furniture, etc., but all my stuff is rotting. I make some wooden furniture and set it all up, then one day later it's XXwooden furnitureXX.

I'm not sure if it's a bug or if it's just because my carpentry skill is low.

What about a floor and ceiling?

I tried having stuff both on top of a floor and under a ceiling, but it still rots. Even placed it on a constructed table (which also rotted).

When I've already got sixty three dwarves, a third of them are idle, and only thirty one rooms, the last thing I need is more of the Mountainhome's refuse.

The fact that I was able to create a new squad of competent level warriors was nice, though.

Oh good, so I can make my orc fortress already and start breeding my harem?

the useful ones and some servants along with training pump racks and steel swords
Why don't you just flood your fort with water, delete the game, smash your computer and throw yourself in magma?

Work orders

Is it playable already?

it was a 5x5 embark in an entirely woodland area so im not really surprised

after reloading the next 80 pop guy was a venom sting forest titan that came just as fast as the last one but did zero damage after initially chasing one of my cats and running past my fort entrance and then getting ambushed by the 40 military dorfs waiting for orders there

It's a bug.

Cool beans.

I'd still be playing HellMOO or one of its kin if they hadn't gone to shit. Most of the others are either too freeform or too restrictive. That game just got the right balance of mechanics, pieces and the flexibility on how you abuse them.

I wish he fix but and left out variable to enable them again. Some of them act like cool features.

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It must have been like the people who try to feed their cats a vegan diet.

And have to dumb it all down so normalfags don't feel left out? Fuck that.

Compared to most rougelikes DF interface really userfriendly. Everything have a hotkey. On the other hand therapist is really must have to manage a lot of dwarfs.

The bugs really are the best part of Dorf Fort

Fuck Regular DF

Why aren't you playing DF with the Illithid mod?

It's like you don't want to be the literally best race.

Vanilla
Anyone who says otherwise is a tosser.

It's official, there need be no other games than Dwarf Fortress.

Fucking metal

And the update is out already. Say good bye to your hyperbolic time cabins, unless you choose not to update.

Is there a way to update adventure mode saves when a new version is released?

Probably but generally its not a good idea.

Usually saves are compatible between minor bug fix updates, unless Toady says otherwise. Could try just copying your world and saves over.

I'm waiting for a time when this game will let me recreate Berserk.

You could get pretty close with some modding.

Just create a Dragonslayer weapon in the raws and you're good to go.

The closest thing, i think, is dcss with axe. I am not sure you can slash more than one target per hit in df.

is Adventure mode any fun?

I tried it a bit but it seems like it's a mix of talking to NPCs with walls of dialog options and they tell you to go hunt down a random NPC and wade through his wall of dialog options before they'll give you a quest, and the world is largely empty.

So what's the point of books and libraries? Temples give happy thoughts and taverns attract interesting characters and mercenaries.

Libraries just seem to be a colossal waste of resources. Scholars are outright useless and books are timeconsuming to make.

Are you serious?

I'll probably build one anyways, but there just seems to be no net positive to it.

I see.

From what I hear it's purely a "Hey, look, we made a new book that details what a shit overseer you are".

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Is it not based on proximity, or did that change?

It's not, but it's funny because I had 25 steel bars, 63 iron bars, and 3 copper bars. At least he didn't go for the lead or silver.

Also, I got a Vile Force of Darkness comprised entirely of Dwarfs dressed like goblins.

Legends is still best mode
Randomly generated lore is a fucking amazing concept

So I'm in this region that happens to be a pretty even mix of human, elf and goblin settlements. And I'm in this forest retreat that happens to be a pretty diverse mix of elves, humans, dwarves and goblins. Are goblins still always at war with the other races?

What do you guys think the source code of DF looks like?

Good.

It's a sprawling decade-old megaproject, it has to be an absolute clusterfuck. If Toady ever retires and releases it nobody could maintain it

Did everyone miss this line?
>next up we'll be doing more bug fix releases to make sure we have a vaguely presentable DF before we disappear into a new compiler and 64 bits
PLAYABLE FRAMERATES NEXT YEAR?
Multithreading never ever

Is there a mod that lets you start a game with a site in your embarking area eg a lair or necromancer tower?

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64-bit won't improve performance at all.

Mutlithreading won't be the miracle solution everyone thinks it will be. He needs to take a look at exactly what is being updated every cycle and clean that shit up.

New compiler very well may mean improved performance, 64 bit can be a speed improvement depending on the type of program (DF might be a good candidate for that), and maybe when Toady is figuring out 64 bit programming he'll accidentally learn SIMD.

Apparently he doesn't use that software that manages all your different versions. He just does standard backups and keeps going like a bulldozer

DF is quite clean already. Its just impossible to speed up hundreds of units and other calculations.

CLA

Behold Geshud
firstborn child of the settlement of Unulenshal

playing makebelieve in a pit i had dug out to get the corpse of a dwarf who drowned while getting a drink after getting scared into the river by a kea

Goblins can be conquered by dwarves, elves, and humans in worldgen, so those goblins are from a conquered goblin civ or their descendants, and I'm pretty sure war is a civ based thing.

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This is Dodok Saberfrenzies all over again…

My man of darker complexion.

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Are there still no downsides in making your tavern an elaborated shooting range for your crossbow dwarfs?

Last time I tried there were no downsides whatsoever in killing every visitor in your fortress.

Who fuckin' knows, try it and find out. I'm tempted to do it myself.

How do you prevent marksdwarves shooting your own dwarves and not the visitors?

Its not really effective.

Train them properly. I usually just embark in a savage biome and employ some dorfs as hunters. The ones that survive lng enough to become Legendary get to join the army.

>Shift+A to fug

Truly, all other games would become pointless.

Evacuate the tavern of dorfs with burrow-zones. And even if some twat was left inside the tavern in the duration of bloodshed, and was injured, it would have been merely a bonus for it provides a good training for my medical team. By the time you have a tavern and a hospital, you're not exactly going to run out of dorfs any time soon.

Wereass attacks my fort.
Rips the dress off a dwarf as he kills her.
Starts beating the rest of my military with it.
Wereass finally dies after killing 5 dwarves with a dress.
Currently trying to scape together a half decent hospital for the survivors and a tomb for the fallen.

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You mean prison for contaminated?

I didn't know about wereass infections until it happened, it's my second fort.
Currently dealing with dwarves transforming and murdering civilians.

someone who is newer to DF here, is there any alternatives to DFhacks for 0.43 so I can actually navigate the godanm game without using a keyboard cursor?

Shift + direction.
Shift + H for binding hotkeys.

A walking set of asscheeks attacked your fort? How unfortunate.

no I mean as in the ability to click a tile instead of using the movement keys to move the cursor to that tile.

Just learn how to use proper way. Using mouse will require you to have 3 arms.

not really, I have that stupid mmo mouse that has 30 something buttons on it, I just need the ability to select a tile without using the directional keys, now is there a solution or am I going to have to keep playing 0.42?

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Are you autistic, retarded or just socially inept? I keep asking you a question and you keep dodging it with solutions that I didn't ask for.

I'm not playing a DF with its ancient unintuitive systems that my ancestors had to use, just like I refuse to use my OS without a proper window manager or shell.

I seriously hope you don't work in a field that requires customer relation skills.

No one denies your right to be wrong. Hell, you can play df with gamepad, no one cares.

this isn't a matter of right and wrong, this a matter of preference, the only objectively wrong way to play the game is to use something that intentionally limits your efficiency like a fully 3d tileset, which offers no benefits or challenge but adds many drawbacks.

I'm not going to respond you anymore though, since you're obviously not going to answer my original question pertaining to 0.43.

You want me to explain how to play game designed for keyboard on your mouse which I never seen? And instead of playing like everyone else you want to play in special way. And than I told you to play like everyone else because its the best way, you told me that I am retarded autistic and stupid.

I like the sound of that, usually get to a point with a fort where there isn't much left to do but stare at it or bring on the clowns.

Spaghetti so intense that it will be the bible of code obfuscation when it becomes open source

Toady himself said he's not a programmer and doesn't want open source contributions in case "he doesn't understand the code"

That's a bit silly, just have someone proficient manage the github, sure there'd be more than enough volunteers from bay12 alone.

He doesnt want to let anyone do it because he thinks that everyone will ruin it. And if world was filled with good coders than there will be a good DF clone instead of shitty ones.

but rimworld isn't that bad of a clone.

Just use the Lazy newb pack with mouse controls. and setup your mouse buttons in auto hot key or some other software. It is pretty inefficient though, you would be better off getting used to the keyboard controls since they are the fastest.

There's plenty of good open source stuff without retarded communities, there'd likely be some shitty forks of DF but if there were guidelines vanilla wouldn't get too fucked up.

It's not bad but it's also not nearly as complex.

I had a weresheep descend on my fort, which was dispatched easily enough, but it infected one of my sword dwarfs who I didn't get fully contained before his next transformation. The quickness at which a weresheep with an iron short sword can all but annihilate a fort of 17 dwarfs is pretty astounding. Drunkenabbey didn't even make it a year.

Good God, people like you would never have survived gaming in the 80s, such a bunch of precious little pansies too delicate to be navigating a game with a keyboard. Pushing multiple keys is just too much work for the kids today, why can't they just click a mouse button, I hate to think of the next generation of gamers who'll be too lazy to even click a mouse.

One of my forts was attacked by a werepanda. I had settled in a region that was pretty much Japan.

Killed a lot of the militia. I barricaded all the wounded dwarves in the hospital; a few transformed and killed the rest, leaving two werepandas in the ward. After some months, I had a plan to lock them in a chamber and drown them.

Instead I flooded the whole fort by mistake. That was pretty frustrating.

Good God, now he's too advanced to use a DOS prompt. Tsk, tsk, tsk, so sad. You little fuckers will really be in for a rude awakening when technological collapse comes and you have to actually pick berries and scrounge grubs instead of making your virtual dwarf slaves do it for you at the click of a mouse; you'd give a lifetime supply of free blowjobs to anyone who would provide you with an "ancient unintuitive" keyboard system in such a scenario.

I can't pray to my god because I am a gray squirrel man.
So he'll just keep becoming more and more unfocused.

nostalgia fags like you are the ones who hold back progress. I laugh my ass off when some faggot who just runs his entire OS without even a basic shell script and thinks he's top shit while he has to actually type out the paths to his directories or long commands just to execute an application while I blow him away in terms of work efficiency by just double clicking.

You are old and your tech is shit, get over it.

I've flooded several forts over the years, though I think I've mostly gotten water down.

Oh, I just discovered today (I just recently started playing again) that you can prioritize designation tasks now from 1 to 7, that's some really convenient shit.

The most annoying bug in the game right now for me is the one with bins, if shit is in a bin and someone picks it up, it's like all the items in it are nonexistent and I get all kinds of cancellation spam. So now I have to autistically micromanage my stockpiles even moreso than I already did. Also, didn't realize sometimes dwarfs can get stuck in trees and die even if they can path of the tree, but cutting a tree down with a dwarf on the lowest branches doesn't seem to be too fatal. And so far, for me at least, getting my dwarf to go pray or relax at the tavern is like pulling teeth, though other people seem to have the opposite problem.

No, your tech is shit, the only benefit it has is higher convenience and flash. Get off my lawn!

The bin bug has been around. It happens for barrels too, so I've gotten in the habit of forbidding barrels from my farms' seed stockpile, spreads it out a bit. Used to be an even worse bug regarding powders stored in barrels being rendered unusable, I couldn't use dyes or flour for the longest time.

As for dorfs getting stuck in trees, I started disabling that option in gathering zones just to prevent that. I was told it was fixed but I haven't tested it out yet and cutting the trees down tended to kill the dorfs anyway.

Taverns and temples and libraries have worked for me. Too well, in fact. I get too many damn guests and the already-bad FPS gets even worse.

Also none of my scholars can write books longer than 1 page for some reason.

They would. DF is his baby, you don't just hand that off to some fly-by night programmer volunteer on an internet forum, that's how good ideas and good software get ruined.

I've had it happen when the month changed and my archer squad militia commander went from off militia duty to on militia duty while he was in a tree, once had it happen when I got rid of a gathering zone while a dwarf was in a tree, and then once I'm not sure how it happened because the dwarf that got stuck didn't have herbalist labor enabled.

I have bags in my seed stockpile, but I usually embark with a shitton of the different types of seeds, so haven't had an issue with it there yet. Mainly it bothers me with gems, so I have a rough gem stockpile with no bins, but my cut gem stockpile has bins; finished goods is where it's most annoying, I have a few different types of those now: goblets only stockpiles near food/booze stockpiles, wearable items and tools and shit in one, and then shit that's only good for export has one with bins so shit's easier to move.

I've only gotten 3 or 4 guests at most at one time, but I haven't gotten too far into a fort yet.

I haven't even gotten to starting a library and book-making industry yet. Though looking at books in Legends mode is fun.

If your tavern is good, stocked with booze and instruments, eventually they will start flooding in. Gotta build that reputation first. I too keep a goblet stockpile in the tavern since putting them in the chests seems to accomplish fuck-all. I have seen tavern keepers serving patrons drinks and I don't know if it requires both booze barrels and goblets to be inside the tavern, or just near it.

Yes, the jewel stockpile has become incredibly aggravating, I can't get things cut and encrusted efficiently at all, and trying to make stockpile links just makes it more coplicated. Sorting finished goods is a pain in the ass.

that time is already here

Well, it's not a thing in my segregated gaming world of yesteryear.

Most of my gods have been in form of dwarves, sometimes a skeleton, a bobcat once, this is the first time I've had a mosquito god, but loving those associations.

One world I gen'd had a thrall as a dwarven god.

Another dwarven god was a god of death, murder, suicide, and fortresses. It was the dwarfiest god I had ever seen and I made a church in his honor that automatically named itself The Church of Blood. I only wish he appeared to a better player than I, one that could have constructed a better temple and given it the blood it rightly deserved.

Apparently the Pick of Clashing are vermin worshippers.

The best god I had was, ugh, I forget the whole name, it was Something Something the Lute of Pus a female dwarf skeleton associated with life, death, pregnancy, and deformity, but that was in a version before temples.

In a game like dwarf fort the keyboard controls are the fastest way to do things

But therapist is really improves management.

im talking about vanilla though, adding mods changes everything.

I mean, yes, df is best played with keyboard only, but its generally good to have separate tool to manage shit. But you use tools like once per season.

I used to use therapist but stopped because I became dependent on it and had to wait around before I could play a new release.

Also, on another note, my gray squirrel man doesnt have the option to pray to his god so he's becoming unfocused. Anyone know a way I can solve this?

I have an ancient fucking toaster and I still run 220 dorfs with temperature and get fantastic FPS. No idea why but it's one reason I want to keep this fucking PC even after I upgrade.

I always wait for a couple of bugfixes. 2 years without new release taught me patience.

DF uses one core and clock speed is most important. Probably something to do with cpu instruction set. Basically nothing released in past years is better than old cpu. And the rest of hardware is irrelevant, you just have to had enough ram.

Also I realized I don't really need it.

Anyone else here gotten an age of death before?

Oh, hell yes, I got a bit of necromantic fun in my spring migrant wave!

is this what being rich feels like

Holy fuck that Trump reference

I'm gonna make a fort with a square wall 2 tiles away from the border with a huge, fat door right in the middle that people can come in to, legally.

No murderous elves peddling tree-love to get high on.

fucking roleplayer

I miss masterwork…

I'm sitting here laughing at you
Thanks, user.

After a while for most people making efficient forts becomes so easy they have to start roleplaying to get any fun out of the game, but to be fair the whole history generation and continued world development should make it pretty clear that that's what Toady intended the game to be for anyway.

My Necromancer warrior-philospher is writing the fortress' first book about heliocentrism and the chief medical dwarf was taken by a secretive mood. Two weirdo gods, necromancer migrant, successfully defeating a weresquirrel with a war dog as the only casualty. This is my best fort so far. Now, if I can build a cistern without flooding everything out, I might be able to make this my first fort that's retired to fps death rather than abandoned to horrifying yet easily avoidable disasters.

Eh, my artifact turned out to be just a bed, which isn't so bad, I'll give it to my mayor when I get one of those.

ew

MEANWHILE: AT THE TOP OF A MOUNTAIN IN BUMFUCK NOWHERE

Finally, I can do something about all those shellfish.

What you expected from furfags?

I have an appraiser, the value is on a different page than the description. It's not worth very much, first artifact is always kinda lame, at least it wasn't a toy or amulet.

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My second artifact, a leather backpack, and I didn't even get a legendary leatherworker out of it, I got a legendary tanner, what a fucking gyp.

Werebeasts(or at least werepandas) can't drown even when they are in their dwarf state.
Best way to deal with infected is to group them up in a 3x3 room with Upright steel spears on the floor and order a dwarf to trigger them until it dies.

The Pick of Clashing have yet another badass god, I'll have to make a snazzy temple of death on my mausoleum level.

Charge attacks are so fun to do. I love imagining how it must look to charge someone with a thrust and get parried, only to follow through with a shoulder charge and knock them to the ground so I can crush their fucking skulls in with my shield.
Does your ability to attack with a shield go up with shield skill or hammer skill?

Since this thread is still up. Are homosexuals still a thing?

Yeah, luckily all you have to do is just dive into the creatures raw folder and rev up that multi-file Find+Replace. Keep a backup of the sentient creatures though, so you can restore the elves' rightful homolust

In my breeding and taming of countless animals I have never encountered homosexuals
What is this thing?

apparently you can trigger an age of death manually by killing everyone in adventure mode.

there's a small chance that any creature will be homosexual. There was also a bug related to that that made animals refuse to breed because they weren't married or something. I guess it was fixed.

Your shield's attack power goes up with your Misc Object Use skill.

Also if you're into combat maneuvers you should search up Kisat Dur. I never knew just how robust the dorf fort combat system was until I read it.

Damn you had to remind me.
I still have MUSHclient installed and I still check out Hellmoo once in a blue moon just to see if anything major happened…
And nothing did, it seems.

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I always had an inkling that there was some complexity to the direction you attacked from. But jesus I never knew you could dodge to someone's side and use it to punch them in the side of the rib. That's awesome user, thanks.

Why do these zombies only have upper bodies?

So that's where they went

Really please

el based frog man

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Reminds me of this.

I can't find that post when I check the site

lewd

I think if you kill EVERYONE you get an age of emptyness

I guess i forgot to say including yourself

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