What makes something "Fun"?

I often read in threads about things that Holla Forums likes is fun as well that cartoons and comics etc are lacking in today's age, replaced by SJWism and """quirky""" quipfests or SO RANDUMB humor. But as I look over old threads like the DC x Colonel Sanders comics or Gwenpool storytimes, I have to wonder: what makes a work fun to watch/read? Is it simply a matter of storytelling? Concept? Character interaction?

There was clearly something about old works that's recognized as done better than most of the shit today, but what is it about the current generation of Comics/Cartoons that prevents them from being Fun? Maybe if we can answer that, we can start to have good media again. Or take the "shit" out of Capeshit, at the very least.

i dont know about fun but what i miss from old comics its the adventure and the action

For something to be fun it has to be written from the get-go as a piece of entertainment, not as a political mouthpiece or a cash-grab or a model for real life which is usually boring and painful…
With entertainment and nothing else in mind, the show or comic would strive to be unique from the rest, to be the best at action/adventure/horror/etc so that people actually consume it. The creators' competency matters a lot here since you can't be the best when you can't draw or animate worth a cat's ass, know what you're doing and be good at it. Granted that sometimes the art is not very good but the show it's in is, but that's because it compensates with clever writing, engaging plots, expressive voice acting…etc. That's working on your strength points to deliver a show worth watching.

Fun is a buzzword.

Fucking this. Moreso than political shit, trying to make comics into "grounded" real life shit is fucking cancer to fun storytelling.

Really, nigger? It's not as if the art of comedy has been studied for as long as mankind can remember and it's only become haha dick joke in recent years?

If I'd have to express what makes something fun, it would be a mix of a few factors. Most importantly, not giving a fuck, whether it's about established preconceptions (look how many cookie cutter insecurity-porn comedies exist and look how all the trailers do the same damn cuts and jokes over and over again), political undertones (commie propaganda movies making fun about Americans can be hilarious, too), coherent visuals or lore. Just make something that makes you laugh and people'll laugh with you. If you make something that just makes you smile, then it means you're just forcing it. The latter is how I'm assuming Jim Davis has been making his shit and how all of tumblr's hilarious comics are made.

Don't respond to the mentally retarded, user. You're only giving him the attention he craves.

>>>Holla Forums

Comics used to take themselves somewhat seriously, in terms of continuity and characterization and so on – they took the "rules" of their universes seriously. They were largely free from irony. Comics contained jokes but weren't written as jokes.

At the same time, the people making comics weren't overly self-important. They didn't think they were making great art or literature, or that they had a big impact on the world.

Hello cuckchanner, at least you can actually discuss things on our Holla Forums.

I'm going to have to go with a Roger Ebert quote here.

>"There's a learning process that moviegoers go through. They begin in childhood without sophistication or much taste, and for example, like "Gamera more than "Air Force One" because flying turtles are obviously more entertaining than United States presidents. Then they grow older and develop "taste, and prefer "Air Force One," which is better made and has big stars and a more plausible plot. (Isn't it more believable, after all, that a president could single-handedly wipe out a planeload of terrorists than that a giant turtle could spit gobs of flame?) Then, if they continue to grow older and wiser, they complete the circle and return to "Gamera'' again, realizing that while both movies are preposterous, the turtle movie has the charm of utter goofiness–and, in an age of flawless special effects, it is somehow more fun to watch flawed one."

In my opinion, fun from a comic originates when the author embraces what the comic is instead of trying to fight against it.

That might be the best definition I've ever heard. While Punisher comics are usually dark and edgy, it's still clearly "fun" to see him chuck a human trafficker into a skyrise window until either the window gives out or she turns to paste.

We can agree on that.

Hey Holla Forums

I was reading HeroAca, and couldn't stop thinking about your quote after reading this page. Your definition of "fun" extends to the superhero genre as a whole, and I think that's the whole problem with capes nowadays. It's NEVER about rescuing some helpless little girl or stopping bad people, or inspiring people to do better, which is what capes were originally about. Now it's all meta-wankery, crossover events to see who would win in a fight. Even normalfags' favorite comics that get posted on Imgur are always the ones about heroes dropping everything thing stop one person from jumping off a building or bridge, or the one where Spider-man finds the dying homeless girl he can't save. In modern comics, even if some poor sick suicidal cancer survivor is in the comic and dies, it's never about how the hero tried their best to save that person, the victims exist one to be a guilt trip to put the protagonist through more mental anguish.
WHY THE FUCK ARE THE JAPS SO MUCH BETTER AT THIS NOW

It's because they haven't spent the last 30 years stuck in a nihilistic neckbeard hellhole that runs exclusively on exploitative gimmicks.

Heck, the entire story could be considered a "Fuck you" to western comics. The entire story is constantly referencing that the heroes have been around so long, most of them aren't even there to save people or make the world a better place. They're all just fighting for popularity, and it's Deku's existence that's reminding them what being a hero is actually about.

No, it really isn't.

Its the exact same story that has been perpetuated again and again, and is the same stock Shonen archetypical story that has been repeated again and again.
It just got lucky that this flavor of the reskin that these stories go through was "Superhero" when it plays out not at all like it in practice.
Its just Naruto again. If you think about what MHA actually does you will realize it follows the exact same formula stories like Naruto follow to a hard T.

In fact, its got its own perverse problems that's related to Japan. In the same way that Modern Comics are in a Rut, Japanese Manga, and that includes MHA (And OPM) are stuck in an increasingly calcified rut.

It superficially "Deconstructs" tropes, but then proceed to follow them exactly away, to the point that I feel like its become an Anime Cliche on its own alongside nosebleeds and accidental groping.

Nigger, are you really trying to say the HeroAca isn't a cape story? Because that might be the most idiotic statement I've seen on Holla Forums.

Is Naruto a Capes Story?
And I'm being serious. Is your argument "Setting or Character Design is what makes a superhero story". If so then yes MHA is a Superhero story. If "Plot, Story Structure, and Execution make a superhero story" then MHA is not it.

Character motivations is the most important part, and Deku is clearly motivated by the desire to save people above all. Deku does not want to become the #1 Hokage of Cape Village to prove he's great. He wants to save people. Yeah, there's plenty of the standard shounen "Be the best" stuff, but everyone has their own distinct motivations for that, and the main character wants to be the best because it means he will have the power to help people.

Then Naruto, Fate/Stay Night, Dragonball, Sailor Moon, are superhero shows.
Like I said, its pure coincidence.

It's like a Mad Libs story, where the flavor of the month was slotted in as "Superhero".

Sure Deku cares about saving people, but so did Naruto, and BOTH of them arbitrarily chase after a pointless rank that proves nothing. Heck Naruto had more of a POINT chasing after a rank since he could then cause change theoretically.
But Deku and all Might Stress the importance of the very same corrupt ranking system that only causes conflict and suffering, and indulge in it. Heck we already know right at the beginning of the story that Deku will not take down this corrupt system at the end of the story, and in a way its more of a tale about how Deku is corrupted by the very same system that he was a victim of. The only thing that changed was that he was let into the inner circle.

People mistake show embracing 100% stock shounen tropes in the show as a rejection of superhero norms that are currently happening.
But again it's just a coincidence. Make Deku a Ninja or a Samurai, or a Ghost Eater, or an Angel Excrocist and the story remains exactly the same:

__ is an average weakling at academy where young students train to become powerful . finds himself the subject of mockery despite his good heart. strives to become a great _ but feels limited by his base self. However, by pure coincidence __ has inside him (or is given) amazing powers and suddenly is tough shit. _Insert whatever amount of filler you want here.

becomes the best by the end of the story.

Naruto's motivation is clearly defined as becoming Hokage, because it means the village that tried to pretend he doesn't exist will be forced to recognize him. Naruto saving people is simply a by product of him A)Being in dangerous situations and B) Being a nice guy. You seem to be really fucking hung up on the fact that it's a shounen show, and refuse to see anything beyond the fact that, no shit, it's a Japanese show and has plenty of Japanese tropes. The basic plot structure is pretty much the same as many other "be the best" Shounen shit. But if you actually paid any sort of attention to the show outside of fight scenes, Deku's strength from the narrative perspective has always been how he's more dedicated to helping people. The important character don't jack off about how strong he is, they talk about how he shows people what being a real hero is. Mirio, All Might, Sir Nighteye, and Gran Torino have all talked about how meeting Deku reminded them of what a hero should be. Mirio and All-Might specifically had their world view changed by watching Deku's heroics, and in both situations Deku didn't even use/have powers.
And even ignoring everything about the show being narratively about being a hero, claiming it's not capeshit it absolutely retarded, because of the wide berth that capeshit covers in itself. What kind of fucked up definition do you have if a show about superpowered kids going to a school for being superheroes and fighting supervillains isn't cape shit, but Punisher can be capeshit when all he does is go shoot bad people?

I don't get your point. I agree that it's a Capeshit skin. But it's only skin deep. Is your point that as long as its skin deep then it counts?

Because The Punisher takes inspiration from one of the Origins of Superheroes which were the Vigilantes of the 30s. They where Brutal and often Black and White Moralistic.
Even Superman Started out this way.
Really Just replace "Ninja" in Naruto with "Superhero" and bam you got your skin deep capeshit. "Naruto really changed my worldview because of how devoted he was to his friends!"
Capeshit has a fuck ton more going on then Shonen. The problem is that it just burned away all that was going on until even shallow shonen match it.

Capeshit Draws its origins with the aforementioned Vigilantes, but also from allot of Pulp Comics and Fiction. In design, Cape Stories are much more like Mysteries where the audience knows part of the solution and is about to see the hero solve it.

Capeshit heroes pretty intentionally have pretty simple powers but have complicated villain plots, environments, and scenarios. The Hero doesn't just punch the villain until he falls down (I mean they do it bad Capeshit, but I thought you wanted a show that REJECTED modern Capeshit badness), the villain takes his powers away, or steals a component, or distracts him with a catastrophe as he gets away with his doomsday laser in the middle of the earth with dinosaurs in it or something.
So the hero has to figure out the plot as he deals with its problems and then has a confrontation with the villain at the end. The environment is just as much a part of the story as the Villain and the Hero.
The "Stock Plot" that people IMAGINE the Superhero story as IE: Superman Punches Lex Luthor in a giant robot is shit that's usually a sidenote or kicks off the plot.

MHA has none of that. The villains always attack the heroes directly with no real plot except abstract ideals of justice or something. The environment never matters and does not involve much change. MHA IS the stock plot that Most Superhero stories have as a sidenote.

Because MHA is a Stock Shonen Story. It has no superhero structure, story arc, progression, action, adventure or just about anything else.

EXCEPT its skin, and the heroes motivation if you don't think about it too hard. If your argument is that Skin is all that Matters, then he modern superhero industry is a fine fit.

You're a fucking nigger that has no idea what he's talking about.

Hardly. The Punisher's a 70's character. More Mack Bolan/Charles Bronson than The Shadow, really

Enjoy Naruto Annon.

Well fair enough, but you can really see the connections in at least some format.

...

Enjoy Naruto Annon.

Actually, you know what fuck it: MHA is capeshit. It's close enough, I don't feel the need to argue the point.
My argument is that it's then BAD capeshit.

Unless what is it that you want out of capeshit? When you lets say bust open the best possible capeshit you could ever imagine. Outside of character motives, what else could it possibly be?
Tournament Arcs? Power ups? Panty shots? Moralising with speech?

Is that what defines GOOD capeshit to you annon?

why do you keep doing that?

Sperg from Holla Forums

because like any diehard capeshit apologist he doesn't actually know how to read.

You know, even out of Shonenshit Capeshit, MHA isn't the only one that has done this idea?

I want superheroes doing superhero things, user. I'm sick and tired of hearing about politics and current events, I don't wanna read about them in my capeshit. I like MHA because it isn't "a super-insightful look into the state of our country today" or "a commentary on civil rights and what they mean in a modern society" or "an analogue of religious freedom and why muslims are persecuted".

I'm sick of all that shit. I'm sick of politics, I'm sick of diversity hires, I'm sick of minorities with their only defining trait being "I'm black" or "I'm gay" being pushed, I'm sick of heroes sitting around in coffee shops instead of doing hero shit, and I'm sick of the big two being too afraid to break from all the western trappings that have been in place for fucking decades.

I don't see any of that shit in MHA, at least in MHA it's just heroes doing hero things. At least superheroes and superpowers are something to be looked forward to instead of being seen as a fuck-huge burden. It's a different spin on what a superhero is, and that makes it fun. Don't you like fun?

Alright, I agree with that 100%. My problem with MHA is that the Supehero action I want is more complex. I'm not interested in just Hero Brawls. I like…well actual superhero stories.
Silver Age, Golden Age, Any Age really (Modern Age Discounted of course).
Like to me an Apex show is something like the Justice League in terms of classic heroism. But if you check out how it's structured, it's pretty interesting.

Morgan Lefay searches for the Philosophers stone. The Gang Travels around with the Element of the Martian Manhunter having to overcome his personal temptation after understanding Entrigain. There are twists, double-crosses, travel, a back and forth, and an epic climax as Morgan Temporarily turn, London into a Hellish Camelot. Every character has something to do (The ones present at least), motivations and discussed, heroes are tempted, interesting action happens, pulp goodness. No character "Powers Up". The Martian Manhunters strength of CHARACTER is reflected with him struggling with temptation.

Now compare this to MHA. The Plot is usually:
"We Villains want to kill the heroes as some grand gesture about society. We will take no hostages (And if we have any that's taken out of the picture in a minute), barely have plans outside of killing all might, or killing the Kids, and we will fight in an all out brawl until we are knocked out with brute force".
Characters Strengths are reflected with RAW POWER. Dekus force of personality is strong so he is literally strong. That's it. No temptation, no sacrifice. Maybe this has changed but I read 100 Issues and kinda stopped.
It's a Brawl Show with Superheroes, but not what I consider a superhero show in ANY measure.

What really got to me was that thing where we see All Might tested fighting All for One. There are tons of civilians in the debris around him, so he can't use much force. How will he get out of this? Save the Civilians or Takedown his nemesis?…Oh wait, all the heroes just suddenly bamph in and save all the Civilians in an almost handwaved fashion.
And then his dedication to justice is displayed with how much brute force he can summon. And thats it.

That's what I mean by it being Shonenshit more than it being Capeshit.

Confirmed for never actually paying ANY attention to the story

….Example please?

Deku protects kid, Deku goes 110%.

I mean sure there are scenarious where a character will say "I wont leave x behind despite given the opportunity to leave", but thats pretty much default for 99% of heroic fiction including shonenshit.

Im happy to debate snd be proven wrong. I only have shit to gain by having my mind open to more stuff to enjoy.

Justice League always had a good thing going in it's plots when it would show members of the team (even if they're on a mission) stopping to help out somewhere. Like that one episode where the group was looking for Grodd and his Secret Society but during the search Batman stopped to help a little girl who was trapped in a burning building.

Also those little moments of banter between them. Like how Superman tried to get Batman to come with him to a burger shop at Metropolis just to hang out. Or Flash guilt-tripping both Batman and Orion into attending a ceremony being held for him.

There's been a lot of instances where they've had unorthodox powers and had to find out ways to make them effective. For example, during the first run in with the villain league, when Deku, Tsu and Mineta were cornered on the boat, their strategy was for Mineta to throw all of his sticky hair things into the water and have Deku create a shockwave in it. The end result being that the water was momentarily displaced and rushed back together, forcing the villains and sticky balls into the center, which stuck them all together and incapacitated them.

The tournament arc (which I can kinda see your reasoning on it just by virtue of being a tournament arc) also had this. If I remember right, it had instances like Bakugo leaping off of the formation to grab headbands, with Froppy recovering him with her tongue (because if he hit the ground, it would've disqualified his team), or Deku creating a wind pressure to knock a competitor's arm away and snatch a headband.

There's tons more examples, and other anons that remember it in greater detail can provide them. Point is, even though MHA is a shonen, it's done a pretty good job of avoiding the DBZ power levels nonsense thus far.

Deku uses pure power
Deku uses power to create rubble for Uraraka use to defeat IIda in a separate fight to secure the objective
Deku thinks to use the tip of his finger rahter than blowing out his arm
Deku creates a whirlpool to suck in enemies, while Mineta uses his balls to stick them together, removing them from the fight
Deku tries to solve the problem with brute force, it fails miserably, and will cause him problems for the rest of the series because he has now draw a target on his back showing his potential to the group of supervillains
Deku takes down a robot utilizing shit lying around and observing the robot's movements, doesn't even use his powers
Deku goes batshit crazy and uses mines to launch himself forward to win the race, doesn't use powers
Deku uses OTHER people's powers in a clever manner to win
Deku brute forces his opponent, without the use of powers
Deku uses fingers as shotgun blasts to stay in the fight, would likely have won if he had not convinced Todoroki to go full ham
Brute Force fight, but would have lost if he hadn't thought to text his location to his friends

HeroAca is popular because it does exactly the opposite of what you're claiming it does. Does All Might brute force fights? Yeah, he does. But Deku is the protagonist, and he almost always does clever shit with his powers to win fights. And when he does "brute force" a fight, it's never treated as a good thing. In the fight with Todoroki, he was chatised for *permenenty fucking up his arm,* and was warned he could fight at that level 3 times more at the max. And then he used up one of those 3 times in the fight protecting the kid. Yes, Deku has Herculean strength as his superpower, but the show has never treated that as his true ability. It's always focused on his ability to analyze situations and think of clever solutions above all else.

Deku uses pure power
Deku uses power to create rubble for Uraraka use to defeat IIda in a separate fight to secure the objective
Deku thinks to use the tip of his finger rahter than blowing out his arm
Deku creates a whirlpool to suck in enemies, while Mineta uses his balls to stick them together, removing them from the fight
Deku tries to solve the problem with brute force, it fails miserably, and will cause him problems for the rest of the series because he has now draw a target on his back showing his potential to the group of supervillains
Deku takes down a robot utilizing shit lying around and observing the robot's movements, doesn't even use his powers
Deku goes batshit crazy and uses mines to launch himself forward to win the race, doesn't use powers
Deku uses OTHER people's powers in a clever manner to win
Deku brute forces his opponent, without the use of powers
Deku uses fingers as shotgun blasts to stay in the fight, would likely have won if he had not convinced Todoroki to go full ham
Brute Force fight, but would have lost if he hadn't thought to text his location to his friends

HeroAca is popular because it does exactly the opposite of what you're claiming it does. Does All Might brute force fights? Yeah, he does. But Deku is the protagonist, and he almost always does clever shit with his powers to win fights. And when he does "brute force" a fight, it's never treated as a good thing. In the fight with Todoroki, he was chatised for *permenenty fucking up his arm,* and was warned he could fight at that level 3 times more at the max. And then he used up one of those 3 times in the fight protecting the kid. Yes, Deku has Herculean strength as his superpower, but the show has never treated that as his true ability. It's always focused on his ability to analyze situations and think of clever solutions above all else.

...

No user, that wasn't your net. That was Holla Forums fuckin up again.

Sure? I don't mean "Use the power in an unorthodox manner", also this happens less and less as the plot goes on. Again another common element of shonenshit. But that's not what I was talking about.

I mean using Power Growth as a stand-in for character growth, or strength OF character.


See this guy doesn't get it^
I guess you're not interested in CAPEshit. You're interested in SHONENshit. That's all about the powers.
All this shit you listed is not much different than the Flash using Tornado arms or phasing through solid matter by vibrating his molecules. That's creative use of powers, but that's not what I think of when I think "Man the Justice League made Flash such a fucking amazing character"
It was his confrontation with the Trickster. The episodes are about testing the characters and seeing their fears, creative uses of superpowers are a segment, but thats only ONE segment.
Just about every episode of the JL that was fantastic to me. In terms of both character development, interesting scenarios and environments, and yes they used their powers creatively but that wasn't the FOCUS.

Your right, modern comics are about everything BUT superheroing. Its too gritty (And amazingly too light and insubstantial at the same time), its too self-aware, and too self-aggrandizing. Thats not to even mention the nonstop political agenda and crap reboots.

I get why the show is popular. It's like Naruto
Its near identical in story structure and world design and implementation.

I have nothing against shonenshit on its own and feel free to enjoy it. But its just not what I look for in Supers stories, and I don't think its anything to strive for as a story structure. We can do better then the tired cliches of Shonen.

This is, without a doubt, the most transparent effort of "moving the goalposts" I have ever seen in my fucking life. So remind me again, why is HeroAca not capeshit? Oh wait, no, you admited it was capeshit. It's just BAD capeshit. Because the hero only every uses brute force to solve problems. Oh, he doesn't use brute force? I'm sorry, I meant that the issue is that it's not about the characters in the show. How long until you remember that my original defense of why it's good capeshit is because of how is treats character motivations? What's your argument going to be then? Because your argument has been utterly annihilated on ever fucking point you bring up. If at any point you had said, "I just don't like it," I wouldn't have given half a shit. But you've decided for some reason that you're drawing the line in the sand here, and that it's UNACCEPTABLE that HeroAca be considered good capeshit. Why? I have no fucking clue, but you've proved to be an incompetent retard who has no idea what he's talking about the past 24 fucking hours we've discussed this.

It's got superheroes punching each other. Capes enough for you.

I said Character strengths are represented with power, my expected counter argument wasn't
No, I meant the fact that there is a much stronger focus on powers and utilization then characterization, plot, and environment!

OK your original motive I also pointed out. You just ignored it.
Deku exists in a corrupt (Also Nonsensical) society, but instead of trying to break it down he absorbs it and thrives in it when given the power. He talks about how "He Became the greatest hero" in the end as if that's a good goal. That its a competition. A competition that already created an insane Eugenics movement and an elitist society.
"Deku, how heroic you are without powers proved me wrong about heroism and power! So let me grant you powers!"

That's SHIT character motive. It's SHIT execution.

This is actually an interesting position, because I would also argue that MHA is more into using the superficial genre trappings of Western superhero comics than really capturing what makes them culturally significant. But I think the creators honestly were inspired by Western comics; they just filtered their stories through Japanese lenses (OPM, by contrast, is barely a superhero story at all; it's like calling The Tick capeshit)

Obviously, capeshit is a nebulous term. But IMHO, the reason that superhero media is popular is twofold; one, it provides moral catharsis; two, it provides vicarious agency. That is, in a superhero story, a conflict is established, a bad person appears, the hero prevails, the bad guy is punished. It's a simple morality tale that tickles the same part of your brain that gives you that rush of endorphins when the "bad" puppet gets hit with a stick (exists even in babies, by the way; we're hard-wired to enjoy that stuff). Obviously, there are comics without a well-defined villain, where the hero saves a suicide or aids in a natural disaster, but that usually serves as an aid to allow the audience to identify and sympathize more closely with what is otherwise an extremely violent and unrestrained force in the form of the hero. This also serves the point of making the hero seem more effective within the world, which gives the character agency. People have lost that sense in their own lives, as we learn more and more that social forces much larger than ourselves are the actual power that rule the world. There is nothing that the average reader can do to affect the economy or make the lives of others materially better. But reading about supers gives that same vicarious thrill that social media activism does; that same replacement of endorphins that used to come from accomplishment now comes from envisioning the heroics of another.

While earlier eras might have been okay with that (speaking specifically of the Greeks here, whose heroes were utter psychopaths), modern audiences usually balk at supporting someone whose role is purely vindictive. Even the Punisher's actions are framed as "saving people" more than "being a literal representation within the storie's world of karmic justice/God's wrath." But that moral component remains the core of most hero stories. Where a lot of modern capeshit goes wrong is over-complicating it. Hero punches thief who just loves stealing? Great! Fuzzy feelings all around. Hero punches thief who was stealing to feed his starving family, who are destitute because the corporation moved their operations out of this town, because otherwise they would not be able to compete with others and therefore go bankrupt? Uh oh! Moral complexity! Unclear outcome! Disagreement! The hero is not more powerful than the world! Unhappiness!

This can actually work if the writer is smart - they make the hero smart enough to solve a problem bigger than themselves. They can also play off the two elements of moral certainty and worldly agency against each other, something that Watchmen did very well. Rorschach is a pillar of moral righteousness, but is no more powerful than a crackhead with a lead pipe. Doctor Manhattan is so powerful he breaks the world that he exists within, but by that same measure normal human morality no longer exists to him.

Again, obviously, opinions can differ on what defines capeshit. This is just my idea of what the thematic underpinning of a superhero story is; a morality play that allows the audience vicarious agency. Then we add the aesthetic tropes (a modernish world, people with extraordinary abilities that differ greatly), otherwise, a lot of fantasy or transhumanist stories would also be capeshit. In general, it's also Noblebright, which is the primary reason I like it; it's basically the only part of Western media that treats the noblebright mentality with anything but scorn these days. The occasional "downer" story just helps flesh out what is generally an optimistic and improving universe.

(cont)
This is not what Japanese "superhero" stories are like.

I've actually been reading a bunch of them lately. BHA, OPM, Ratman, Zannen Jokanbu Black General-san, etc. And in general, reading/watching a bunch of Japanese media. I've come to the uncomfortable realization that the Japanese don't seem to want or enjoy moral catharsis in their stories in the same way that Westerners do. That is, their stories aren't about punishing the bad guy, and their heroes are rarely concerned with justice, with the exception of their main characters. The tropes of Japanese capeshit are different; their heroes are commercialized, made a part of the economy or culture and glossed over. There is no glory, no vicarious agency. "Hero" just becomes another type of salaryman or pop star, replete with office politics and jealously jockeying for position in the public consciousness. And the corporate or economic construct that the heroes are a part of is rarely actually heroic; the writers seem to be aware that the status quo that the heroes are defending is fundamentally flawed, and that it corrupts the initially pure intentions of those that enter it.

It is hard not to see projections about the state of Japanese society, which (memetically, at least; I haven't lived there) seems to want to deny individuality, and whose economic and social structures grind people down relentlessly. The worlds of Japanese capeshit are depressing places, where thousands can die for no good reason, and heroes (and the organizations that employ them, and the governments that fund them) don't really care. Like, under my definition, the To Aru no … series can be considered capeshit. In that show, a character kills ten thousand high school girls (painfully, relishing drawing out their pain) under the orders of basically a city council. The only people who care are the two protagonists who put a stop to it. In a Western superhero story, that guy would be a completely irredeemable villain; you don't show that kind of shit onscreen without the character getting some Biblical-level comeuppance. In Japan? He's treated sympathetically, and later becomes a third protagonist. The heroes aren't really treated as having changed much; the city council is still in power, still doing shit like that.

BHA is less depressing than that (note; I don't have access to most of the manga, so I'm only really caught up to where the anime is right now; don't know if it gets a lot darker later on, but being a Japanese work, I'd count on it), but you still get flashes of that underlying inhumanity and cruelty inherent in most Japanese fiction. For example, Todoroki's father basically forced his mother into marriage, and forced her to bear his children, out of his own pride and envy of All Might. Todoroki might hate him, sure, but (so far) he hasn't been given any comeuppance, and I doubt he will be, given that the story doesn't seem to be concerned with this… let's be honest, what was described is hard to treat as anything but decades-long rape and abuse. By a hero that continues to be well-regarded by the general public. In fact, the biggest "upsetting" thing that happened to him was being forced to take credit for the capture of Stain while knowing it wasn't actually his doing.

How fucking terrible for him.

After reading so much of it, and comparing it to Western stories with similar aesthetic elements but wildly differing thematic ones, I've come to the conclusion that Japanese capeshit and Western capeshit have differences similar to, say, JRPGs and CRPGs. They are tonally different in the same way that those two genres are mechanically different. BHA is a good example of Japanese capeshit. It's good for its genre; the powers are interesting, the characters are compelling, the main character does grow and change over the course of the series. But it's now good Western capeshit; the world is depressing as fuck and it's not getting better, and the majority of characters and society it shows are morally repugnant, more interested in selfishly hoarding power or protection of arbitrary rules than doing what is morally right. There is a sense that the story's universe is going downhill, and the characters have very little agency to stop it.

Amen user. This is exactly what I meant.
That's what I mean that Its "Rejection" of modern norms is Superficial.

Deku "Inspires" the rape child, but continues to work for and further the system that created and encouraged this kind of rape baby ensuring it will continue again.

>>>/a/

Sorry, I agree completely with your first post but your second one is totally off the mark.
What you're saying may be true for their superheroes, but not at all for their stories in general. Just using popular examples…

Hokuto no Ken is literally all about that: the protagonist Kenshiro travels from town to town in a post-apocalyptic world, killing every bad guy in his way because he's hurting innocents. Literally none of the villains survives.

A lot of japanese heroes "go against the grain" because they think society is being unjust and they seek out true justice. Bleach is an example, albeit the societies in that are not of this world. One Piece has elements of it too.


There are a lot of heroes who "act in the shadows" without getting famous: Jojo is basically all that, save the world from vampires and ancient gods but they don't get recognition at large.

I don't even know what anime you're basing that statement off, it's not true even for BNHA.

It's true that manga have a tendency to portray their society as shit, but that's because it's usually part of the hero's job to change it for the better.
Kinda like Gotham City, only things in manga actually change.

The other difference, that you kinda mentioned, is the concept of "villain redemption": in manga, villains can and do change for the better, and we see their progression during the story. This is why some mass-murders don't get punished, it's so that they can be set straight and transform into better people in the future. True, they don't really get punished which could be seen as a flaw, but once they change they completely abandon their evil ways and usually don't go back into "murder mode".
Contrast this with the promise of "Arkham inmates getting better", which mostly doesn't happen and when it does it reverts back. Yet that's basically a core principle of superheroes nowadays: "I won't kill this genocidal fuck because he might turn good in the future", but that moment never really comes, and so people start to ask "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?".
At that point, the manga way is the better way.
Or just make superheroes kill badguys again, like they used to do.

The truth is, there's more variation in "heroes stories" in japan than there are in american capecomics. So while one manga may have a superhero seeking fame and not justice, another may have one be content with helping people and letting others steal the glory.

That's pretty bull user. Unless whats the game your playing. Are you taking every anime over history and calling it a Hero story, whilst extremely limiting the subgenre of cape comics to make your point? Or are you comparing Cape comics as the ONLY comics whilst Japan gets to use every Genre ever?

Again: Deku becomes part of this society. He says that by the end he "Becomes the Greatest Hero". The cycle continues. This dickwaving contest continues and its corrupt morals are carried forwards completely undermining the story.

Is your argument that it would be better if the Joker became a regular on Batman having just realised to stop being a dick, and then the ULTRA Joker Appears, and then HE becomes an ally, and then the Super Joker God Super Joker appears and then he becomes an ally forever until the end of time?
I can't really say manga is in anyway better then what we have right now and what we have right now ain't that great.

Your arguments are incredibly disingenuous, because for half of them you focus on shit from Hero Academia and no other shounen is allowed to count, and the other half you project shit from other shounen and refuse to acknowledge that said things don't actually happen in Hero Academia.

Your post is rather retarded bullshit with lots of reality denial. Manga superhero comics do have more variety than repetitive american capeshit turdfests.

It's more "I won't kill this genocidal fuck because it's not my job to render judgment onto criminals (murderers or not)." because you can't really rationalize a superhero willing to kill without addressing the slippery slope that comes with it.

Plus, anyone with a brain already knows or will figure out the real reason for the deceit: you don't permanently bench potentially reusable characters, especially in sandboxes that writers and editors have their hands in. It's why characters like the Punisher are kind of ineffectual and hard to sustain in the long run: killing the bad guys gets old real quick without interesting variations and good writing.

Actually had to rewrite most of this because I'd glossed over the second sentence.

Which is why I'm only talking about their superhero stories, which most of the examples you've listed are not (Jojo comes closest, but I haven't read much of it, so I can't honestly comment). I thought it would be clear that I was simply comparing the two approaches to the genre of capeshit. If we included all of shonen manga, of course the comparison becomes unfair. You've given one side a much larger pool of stories of wildly varying origin and genres to choose from, especially given how a lot (most?) manga start out as light novels.

Hmm. I may be unclear here because "hero" means both protagonist and a general term for a certain group of people within these stories. The definition I'm using for capeshit is, I think, more narrow than yours, so I thought there wouldn't be confusion. Reread the sentence you quoted. The part immediately after you cut the quote off reads,
i.e. the main characters may see the underlying problems with their world or society, but the general profession of "heroes" don't. BHA obviously has Stain seeing this as a slight on the name of true heroes. OPM has its newbie busters, and people like Amai mask, and in general gives the impression that people like Saitama and Mumen Rider are the exception rather than the rule.

But here's an interesting thought exercise; what differentiates Ichiro from Bleach's definition of "true justice" from Luffy's conception? What about Deku and Mumen Rider? You keep saying that manga has more variations on hero stories, but 1) I think your definition of what a hero story is is too broad, and 2) you're too focused on implementation and context in these stories to notice that their heroes are philosophically nearly identical.

Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are each treated as heroes with their own perspectives, their own ideas of how justice should be done, and their own valid reasons for believing that. They can have actual interplay between those ideals. The Punisher and Daredevil is an even more extreme example. I've never seen that kind of interaction in manga; perhaps you can enlighten me as to where it is? Specifically, heroes who DIFFER in their opinions as to what is right and wrong, rather than one just being the golden voice of justice reaching out to the wrong-doer like a prophet.

I'll admit, I was getting a bit hyperbolic with that statement. Let me break it down a little. In Western capeshit, the heroes occupy the same position that demigods do in Greek myth. They are superhuman, and treated as such. They carry the world on their shoulders. They are treated like prime agents, and when a writer is allowed to do what he wants, they change the world (Watchmen, Injustice, anything under the Elseworlds imprint). By contrast, the superheroes in Japanese capeshit - and note that I'm not saying all shonen manga, but specifically capeshit - are salarymen or at best pop idols. They may be culturally influential, but they're not movers and shakers in the way that Superman or Iron Man are.

Okay, which Japanese capeshit has the society actually getting better? I would love to read this, as I thought this genre was too new to the manga market to show this kind of change.

The slippery slope starts at violent weirdos becoming vigilante celebrities, them killing people is just downhill of that.

Really it bugs me with what I call "New Super Universes"

They have the advantage of having a superhero universe where everything makes sense but they rarely do.

The opportunity to level power levels, have the government kill repeat offenders, exetera.

Personal opinion, obviously: Light-hearted stories, protagonists that enjoy themselves, consequences that are non-lethal and otherwise avoid certain traumatic things. I guess a certain attitude or tone in the story, ADVENTURE! over grimdark edgy bullshit. It shouldn't be too deep - it's too tempting to get into a symbolism circlejerk and put in "dark" background elements that just fuck up a perfectly good fun adventure. Comedy is usually a safe bet for a fun story, but few people still know how to do comedy, so the quality is a total crapshoot. Certain old comics are fun just because of how insane they are, but that's risky business; more often than not, trying to recreate that just results in cringe.

Due to certain limitations, I've been reading a bunch of superhero novels. If you're okay with YA fiction, then the "Please don't tell my parents…" series has fun superhero stories. I also enjoyed "Confessions of a D-List Supervillain" and "How I Became the God-Emperor of Rhode Island," both of which are more mature and quite a bit darker, but still fairly fun IMO. But I guess that's not really Holla Forums-related?

Who's job is it to judge Mongul? Ra's al Ghul? Darkseid?


Duh, that wasn't the point of the post, the point was to make it believable in-universe.

More than once you used the term "stories" without mentioning capeshit, so I thought you were talking in general.
If that's the case, then there's no point in replying to the rest of the post, since we're talking about different things.
Just a note though: OPM is not about western capeshit, it's a parody-subversion of Japanese Action Shonen/Sentai. There are some borrowed elements but it's not about western superheroes. Which makes me wonder what are you referring to when you say "japanese capeshit", aside from BNHA. Tiger & Bunny?


Uh no. It's certainly becoming a trend in recent years, but most IP still start out as manga.


Luffy is invested in anything only if it touches him personally in some way or the other. He isn't concerned at all with the "greater good".
Ichigo is, and it's why he go out and saves the day, he has no real personal stakes in the main plot of Bleach in the later arcs (apart from a generic "If bad guy wins, my friends get hurt too").


I don't think there's a real difference, but Deku is still a kid so he doesn't want to go out and fight for what he thinks is right yet.


Is not an hero, neither according to Marvel editorial or in-universe.

Naruto and Sasuke is your emo-teenager version of the Supes and Batman duo, just to cite an example. In Boruto both are considered heroes but have a much different approach to justice.


That is simply not true, not at all for Marvel and even in DC it's a case-by-case thing. Booster Gold or Black Canary aren't like Greek gods at all, not in or out of the universe, but they're still heroes.

This is a quality thread and I'm glad it exists

Wow, that's a fucking MASSIVE stretch user. As are both of your images.
Like such a level of massive stretch that it really shows your priorities. Compare a Sci-Fi Detective Mystery to modern capeshit whenever it suits you, but Naruto and Superman are pretty much the same right?

I'm not gonna defend Iron Man, but your comparisons always skew on the selective side. Picking and choosing what counts as shonnenshit, or capeshit and then comparing it to wider selective genres and then narrowing them down whenever that suits you the most.

Looks like it. I thought it was fairly clear that I was talking about Japanese analogues to Western cape comics, given that I started by directly quoting the statement about BHA being capeshit, but oh well.

Ratman (until it started veering straight for typical shonen edgelord wankery), Baito Saki wa "Aku no Soshiki"?!, Zannen Jokanbu Black General-san (though I'll admit that's barely a superhero story, and wants to spend a lot more focus on being a romantic comedy). And like I said in my post, none of them are about "western" superheroes, or about how western superhero stories are constructed. They look (to me) like superhero stories, because they take aesthetic cues and motifs from the works that I consider capeshit, but the translation to a different culture is a difficult one and some of the core thematic elements of the genre are lost or purposefully discarded in the process. Hence my original post.

(as an aside, Marvel editorial can choke on a cock and their universe can supply it. "Hero" is a character archetype, of which Anti-Hero is a sub-category which the Punisher damn near codifies)

Back to the topic of the thread, what makes a work enjoyable (not necessarily "fun," but I don't care about that as much) to me is its capacity to make me think. For example, my favorite part of Injustice was the chess matches between Flash and Superman. Both sides made valid points, and you actually understand the slippery slope that this kind of power and control grants. Seeing that slow, creeping corruption, under the guise of good intentions, made that story for me. (Then they fucked it up and made Supes LULSOEVUL, but what can you do?). Or the uncomfortable uncertainty between Rorschach's Deontology and Ozymandias's Utilitarianism. A juvenile example would be the defense of the Noble Lie in the Dark Knight Rises.

And, of course, comic writers being comic writers, bad examples abound. Civil War (and, to be frank, the general arc of the X-Men), for example, is cringe-inducing, because they wanted a story about basic freedom from oppression and wrote "We should be free to carry around untracked, unregistered nukes because FUCK THE GUBMINT." Any story that tries to generate narrative tension from two heroes with differing attitudes to killing tend to be this way as well, because they have the subtlety of a brick. "We can't kill Space-Hitler, because that makes us JUST AS BAD." It's a shame because that's potentially a great dialogue to have; why not show Jonah Hex hanging some cattle-rustlers, since that was the ACTUAL punishment for that crime in those days, and he's the closest thing to a lawman around? The morality of that is less of a retarded thing to debate than putting down some rabid animal that's just going to kill again.

...

Civil War was shit because it used superhuman legislation as a faulty premise for a contrived and dated post 9/11 allegory that was undermined by itself and its aftermath. It's hard to fault anybody for having the default attitude of Fuck The Goverment when the gov't and its associated agencies are often depicted as bureaucratically inept and easily co-opt'd by villains and rogue agents to the point that the world should be downright blessed to still have people willing and able to save it in spite of all that.


He probably falls within The Green Lantern's ballpark, since their supposed to be space cops and all. The Guardians aren't perfect though.
Nobody, since he's essentially Fu Manchu, and he's gone to some extreme lengths to maintain his immortality.
Probably his son Orion, who actually did kill him in Final Crisis. Didn't stop Darksied though.
In all seriousness though, I'll argue that it's really nobody's job to render outright executions, given that these settings pretty much operate on the principle that killing the big dogs would just breeds bigger and badder dogs. From that perspective alone, killing bad guys is more trouble than its worth.

That's not the fucking point at all. The point is at what point is the state allowed to shove the leash up your ass. The eventual compromise reached by the Registration act was that if you wanted to be a superhero and not treated as an outlaw or vigilante, then you had to register. If you had powers, but just wanted to live a private life and not do capeshit, you were left alone.

And guess what? Everyone was fucking FINE with that. The issue was forcing everyone with any metahuman ability to register, regardless of what they intended to do with it, despite the fact it's stated repeatedly in the Marvel universe that within a generation or two, the number of Metahumans will outnumber regular people, making registration fucking pointless.

While I agree that the government in most fictional works is completely useless and people are perfectly rational in not trusting them, I think both of you are failing to consider the facts on the ground; powers pose an outsized and potentially existential threat to human lives. There was that story about the mutant kid whose power basically killed everyone within half a mile of him autonomously. That kid didn't pick that power, and he certainly didn't want to kill those people, but that doesn't change the fact that he did. And how was that resolved? Well, his existence was politically inconvenient for the X-Men, so they murdered him extrajudiciously. Logically, the only reason the Marvel or DC universes remain stable, and not-absolute-nightmare-hellscapes, is editorial fiat. This is a world where some backyard tinkerer can start a grey-goo scenario, or just turn into a human nuke one day, or pick up a phone and mind-control the president into starting World War 3. And remember, there are more villains than heroes, by story necessity, and it's much harder to destroy society than build it up again.

(this is also where the idea of the X-men being a persecuted underclass also falls apart for me, because I cannot honestly imagine a sane group of people going, "That guy's eyes are portals to the LASER BEAM DIMENSION? What a fag! Let's go oppress him!")

The IDEA of the Civil War story is fine. Balancing personal freedoms and rights against an increasingly watchful and paranoid society and government, the tug-of-war between the good of society and that of the individual, and the fascist symbolism of forcing everyone with a particular genetic or phenotypical trait to identify themselves are all interesting and valuable discussions to have. But framing that as "government is inherently and necessarily incompetent, only idiots would want this, and why do you hate heroes so much anyway?" is insulting. Having one side co-opted by the insane, the violent, and the villainous does not result in productive or intellectually interesting conflict.

That's the job of the Gotham City Judicial System, as he's already been sentenced and incarcerated by that court of law.

Indeed. I think it would have made for a fantastic "What If?" story where the boundaries can be properly set and resolved.

"Supervillains Can Take Over" is also a super reasonable aspect of supers.
Let's say you trust a governing body to monitor supers, well what about some rando who just turns out to have mind reading abilities or such?
Even if Marvel wasn't such a hellhole, I still wouldn't trust its government because that just centralizes all the ways a supervillain or a bad guy could take over.


Really though it would have made for a "What If?" Story. Most "Heroes start killing/ hurting each other on mass!" stories benefit from this.

I miss the old days

>Having one side co-opted by the insane, the violent, and the villainous does not result in productive or intellectually interesting conflict.
True, but if you expect that from a comic book crossover event, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. A story where everything goes fine is pretty pointless thematically.
>I cannot honestly imagine a sane group of people going, "That guy's eyes are portals to the LASER BEAM DIMENSION? What a fag! Let's go oppress him!"
Marvel civvies being dumb sheep isn't new, but there's a reason why it's considered more realistic than idolatry.