Does the Legend of Zelda series need a serious overhaul?

Wind Waker had

Not to mention a lot of small island dungeons

SS had
In addition to the areas before them being more complex than most other 3D zelda areas

it needs an overhaul, especially in the combat department. make it more like Ys.

I liked wind waker, a lot. Why can't we have another wind waker, one with grown up link?

wind waker was terrible and over half of it was filler content

do you hate fun?

Change too much, people whine.

Change too little, people whine.

I'd personally prefer them to experiment more with everything from combat to overworld, however I still wouldn't buy it because fuck Nintendo.

fun is bit a buzzword

Also Darksiders is better

no, which is why I don't like windwaker

do you like staring at a screen, doing nothing for minutes at a time until you can play while you watch a boat boringly go up and down on water

you seem to, because you like a game where that's the majority of the content.

I haven't plated DS, I guess I'm gonna give it a shot now to see if you're right.

Don't be a nigger, you can teleport with one of the wind songs after a while, and it's not worth teleporting from the beginning because of the exploration aspect.

and its still a majority of the content. the rest of the content is piss easy and pitifully short.

Sounds like a Zelda game alright.

Thankfully I was beginning to go through puberty when Wind Waker came out. I spent most of the sailing time masturbating.

I have nothing but fond memories of that game.

...

The main issue with Zelda is the fucking overworld, hell it's not really an overworld, it's more like a hub with a string of seperate areas branching off of it.

Nintendo needs to go back to the old way of designing worlds and have everything interconnected to each other, with every grid-area being a unique landmark with something in it. Otherwise you end up with barren overworld with huge stretches of nothing.

my little user can't be strawmanning this hard, please eat my asshole thanks

and your game is shit too

These are the things I find myself enjoying tremendously when playing a zelda game. So if the game services these things, I find myself having fun, and anything that takes me away from it makes me get bored.

You sound salty, user.
Have fun with your unfinished game.

You should get some exercise.

It's not MY game, baby girl. I just liked it when I played it.

I never played Zelda except for Ocarina of Time, years ago and quit it half way. I found it kinda boring. The world felt dead and the camera and controls were wonky. And some of the quests felt like tedious "fetch quests" like you're being told what to do…blah

I just got Oracle of Seasons for 3DS though, and am loving the shit outta it. The world is charming, the controls are tight, the dungeons are clever and well made.

I'm not even a nostalgia faggot cause I never played zelda before.

anywaay to answer OPs question I dunno what zelda should do, probably go back to 2D?

You can like it, but don't pretend it was anything but unfinished. You can go 'BUT YOU CAN MOVE THROUGH THE FILLER FASTER AT THE END OF THE GAME' but it's still filler nonetheless. is right. We need better overworlds, rather than having shit where you spend so much time just waiting to go from one place to the other.

Which is why Minish Cap is my personal favorite.

The more I think about it, the more I am starting to think I am onto something, since looking at what each game does and how well it delivers on those fronts, is what people remember best.

That is, the complaints about each game can be seen as deviations from these activities. Or the new gimmick being something which removes the ability to do it all together. Such as the wolf form, or using the boat, or the stupid bird.

This reminds me, we really need to get a Zelda Classic thread going and possibly at some point try to make our own quest.

AW MAN I WISH ZELDA WAS LIKE DARK SOULS THAT WOULD REVIVE THE SERIES

I just want a Zelda game where I can use any jank weapon to enter a dungeon or multiple dungeon entry points

That beat shadow ganon with a empty bottle.

I agree.

Devs need to hire more geology mayors.

grim-dark towns/dungeons are always welcome, as long as they are a minority in the game, and the rest is colorful and lively

Drop 3d entirely unless they can manage to not fuck it up like WW and SS, and go back to being entirely 2d. I want a huge overworld to rival the oracle games. Make some new items and puzzles, go back to the design philosophy of minish cap. Thats really what i want in a zelda game.

I don't see anyone in the thread calling for a Dark Souls clone. Opinion noted, though.

what surprises me is that 3rd party companies don't just copy the 2D zelda theme and make games around it.

look at 2D turned based RPGs, there are tons of them, copies of copies, but there are so few action-adventure-rpgs that feel like zelda.

Literally no one even implied that in this thread.

You should check out Hyper Light Drifter. It's very close to what you're looking for, just with more emphasis on platforming and combat.

I think he was talking about some other zelda forum talking about how nintendo should make the game like dark souls and add voice acting.

Solarus > Zelda Classic

How about making actually good combat?

No really, that's all it really needs to be a stellar franchise. Apart from toning down on the gimmicks toning down on the linearity. All of the 'Zelduh in Speese' shit isn't necessary if you just rethink the games mechanics and level design.

Link doesn't even fucking move right.

Solarus is C++, faggot.

To make a passable Zelda game takes lots of of good level and general game design. To make a passable RPG you can just slap in a generic turn based battle system and super basic dungeon layouts.

My point on shit not moving right still stands, link and the enemies have absolutely no acceleration to them, they either move or dont. Also none of the animations are properly timed so link runs like he's underwater.

Not really. The biggest problem with the series now is that it's gotten so far away from what made people like it to begin with. They just need to stop being so concerned about shitty players, and go back to making games where it's actually possible to get lost or die.

It's open source and has more features than Zelda Classic.

Honestly, I think you're better just making a Zelda clone, though, because they're both shit.

Yeah it isn't that the game has to be hard or brutal. It just has to not be afraid to let the player fail. The whole point of Zelda in the first place was Miyamoto trying to make a game that was like him exploring the forest around him as kid. Having a little friend who pops up whenever you take a wrong turn goes completely against that spirit.

I'd be happy with a return to the difficulty of the N64 games. Though even they were quite a big step down from what came before, in terms of challenge.

I'd say make the combat in 3D Zeldas faster but more risky, with more aggressive enemies that don't get hitstunned or staggered nearly as often as they typically do in a 3D Zelda. Item use should still play a big part, but moreso for multi-tiered combat scenarios with enemies instead of totally disabling them or getting free supplies with one button.

Also, make Link move faster. Link moving comparatively slow without a mount in the overworld is understandable, since it's supposed to invoke the feeling of traversing an entire country or continent, but taking 30 seconds to a minute to traverse a large room in a dungeon makes playing the game a chore.

The dashing in skyward sword was one thing I actually liked in the game.

I know this is not exactly what you're looking for, but I'd like to see another 2D sidescrolling Zelda like AoL and Gamelon and Faces of Evil. Just every once in awhile or even just for one game.

But then they made it really limited and I felt like I was going slower than before

Dark Souls in many ways is like a modern take on the original Zelda. While I would never want Zelda to just straight up become a Dark Souls clone, there are elements I'd like to see the series reclaim.

No. For a long running series like Zelda it's a miracle it changes as much as it does between each game.

Besides, we all know that the minute Zelda tries to alter itself in any extreme manner every fan of the franchise would shit themselves in rage.

Remember how harsh the backlash was for fucking Wind Waker? That was just an art style change and a different setting.

And a bad game

I'm surprised there were more Zelda 2 clones back in the day or that there were not some indie games that tried to emulate it.

Yeah but fuck those people Zelda keeps selling less and less with every release. There are ways to evolve a series without shitting all over it.

Yeah like see this guy fuck him in the ass with the wand of gamelon.

Shante has kind of a Zelda 2 feel.

Yeah I can kind of see that Shantae's combat is really bad though for besides the most recent one. Even there though it isn't has involved or satisfying as Zelda 2 when it's at it's best.

In truth, I am hoping the new Zelda gaem ends up fixing a lot of problems newer titles in the series had.

Last I recall, wasn't one of the main points brought up so far "there's plenty of dungeons, scenery, events, landmarks and other shit to find in this BEEG world, and you start after obligitory intro antics free to explore the world however you want to"? I'm hoping that they let dungeon order be non-linear and allow for plenty of at least decent dungeons and other places to explore to ensure a shitload of ways to play this gaem.

Also, for once Epona is actually a smart hoers. But that's just the possible horseshit cherry on top of this thing.

It's hard to separate what Nintendo has actually said about the new Zelda and what people are inferring upon it because it is so obvious that they should do it.

????
It's basically the same thing as Pirate's Curse. Castlevania whipping.

What little they've shown of the new Zelda doesn't look appreciably different from the past games apart from the graphics and the focus on an open world.

I don't know if there is Z-targeting or whatever, but the slow-motion arrow shit [with what looks to be gyro aim on the gamepad] is not really doing it for me so far.

I'd want Zelda to try and go back to its roots, take out the fluff, and try to be challenging again.

What will probably happen is Skyward Sword 2. I'll laugh my ass off if it really is this and manages to sell less than SS, despite being on two systems.

Honestly, i think the open world is needed for 3d zeldas, just item lock a lot of areas at the start, and have the player make use of all their items all over the world. I just hope it doesnt do what LBW did with item renting. I really hated item renting.

Enemies take too many hits to die and aren't aggressive enough for the high hp to make it fun to fight. You're literally just standing there whipping until they die. The combat in pirate's curse wasn't really mechanically that different except for the items but enemies dies faster and the movement felt so much better. So the combat didn't feel like as much of a chore.

The open world is fine. Even going back to OoT they sort of had a precursor to open world. I'm saying that the fundamental gameplay doesn't look very different, just grafted onto an open world, and I'm not excited for it.

I think it's taking an interesting enough direction right now.
Too bad it's taking forever.

I see Aonuma was also checking out the marketing buzzwords as well.

Wouldn't surpise me, unless they can somehow recapture the Wii's popularity with NX.

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Even if it is the best open-world game of all time there is no way it's selling more than any of bethesda's garbage.

With the Zelda Wii U open world being as massive as it is, I do hope there are actually cool and unique things to do throughout it and not copy-paste encounters and senseless padding like collectibles.

If you want to destroy it, yes. Just turn it into a God of War clone so that the kids can enjoy it and you can kill it immediately.

Other than that, no.

If the game is bad, I don't think it matters how popular the console ends up. The enormous amount of people with a Wii still didn't save SS.

In a sick sort of way, I'd argue that Bethesda has managed to replace Zelda with Skyrim and Fallout.

I think it's this sort of mindset that has landed Nintendo where they are. It doesn't have to be a God of War clone – it's a simple examination as to whether the series, which has not changed a whole lot since the N64, needs to be revamped.

And a great game will still sell poorly, if no one buys the console it's on.

It seems that every game accused of being a better Zelda game than the LoZ series has little to no puzzles.

IMO, they need more functional items not situational bullshit like the spinner.

If they are going add voices, don't give Link a voice and make everyone speak in an alien language.

I thinm they did the best with midna. Jumbled unintelligeable language, and would make the game cheaper to make because they can use the same 'voice acting' in all regions. Although i would just prefer no voice acting.

It needs to be more subtle like Ocarina. Subtly encourages adventure tbh and gives a sense of wonder and mystery, all of this shit with characters spewing walls of slow moving text and signs that tell you exactly where to go are fakin ghey as hell. Also if the combat was harder it would be much appreciated for the older fans.

This is in the right direction, but I don't think it needs to be 2D. I think Zelda is at its best when there's lots to explore and uncover. I think it could almost do better with less linear gameplay, dungeons that have multiple ways to overcome them with different levels of challenge, allowing a new player to 'find' an easy way to beat the game with sufficient exploration, or allowing a clever-thinking player to finish the game quickly.

I liked upgrading items a lot in Skyward Sword and A Link Between Worlds, even if I didn't use it a lot. I'd like more of that, but definitely no addition of 'stats' like strength, dexterity etc. On the topic of items, make switching between them feel fluent. Support this by having enemies with different vulnerabilities and advantages that aren't immediately obvious. Items shouldn't just 1-dungeon, 1-boss + ending puzzle use, they should have varying usefulness throughout the game.

Otherwise, pacing in the series tends to be pretty good, and the ending fights of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were exceptional.

pic unrelated

thanks, this looks cool!

True, RE4 didn't start raking it in until it came out on the PS2 and Wii. I'm just pointing out that it has to stand on its own to make it.

Nintendo needs a serious overhaul in order to get rid of forcing gimmicks. Anyone who just wants to overhaul the whole Zelda franchise and change it completely JUST DOESNT WANT TO PLAY ZELDA

TP is still the best Zelda, GC version almost perfect gameplay-vise

tp is the perfect game to cut myself to

One thing i really liked from PH was that one huge dungeon you kept going back to. I think zelda needs more dungeons you have to return to to finish it, and it has multiple items to get from it. Just an idea.

Zelda: A Link Between Worlds is the closest to what the game series, in my opinion, should be getting back to. It also shows how Nintendo is constantly stepping on their own toes.

No more of the sequential dungeons.
In my opinion, dungeons should be able to be picked whenever or however you want to. There should be no order. However, that isn't to say that dungeons shouldn't become easier or harder depending on the items you own and/or lack. In all honesty, the items you gain from dungeons should help you explore more in the over world and maybe make some bosses easier. Every boss should be able to be killed by your sword but perhaps having the hammer might make things a little easier on one boss? that type of stuff.

Another thing I found interesting was the way the item system in Zelda worked all together. You didn't NEED the dungeons for the items and instead you rented them. As a consequence, you also had the ability to get like 9999 rupees right from the beginning. They also made the magic meter auto-refill which actually encouraged the use of items because now I didn't have to worry about ammo in any real form. I wasn't prone to saving things up.

However, this is where Nintendo steps on its own toes with that. See, there comes a point where you'll never need to really pay more than the rental and then the full buying fee for the item. That leaves you just collecting rupees for no reason very quickly.
What they should have done? Was make item usage tied to rupees. rupees are in abundance, yes, but perhaps shooting off an arrow costs 2 every time you use it?
If not, perhaps you should have only been allowed to rent the items for a set amount of time instead of just until death?

TP is so fucking boring and route like the art and characters are decent, I mean who doesn't love Midna. The game though is just so fucking routine and boring. Also it's jacked to shit with filler garbage like the tears of light. Also as someone who completes 100% on every playthrough it makes TP pretty much un-replayable. I only did it once years after, and I've replayed every other game besides SS at least 5 times.

Nice buzzwords

What buzzwords?

I don't see why the overworld can't serve that purpose.

"routine" and "boring"

Hating TP is a meme after all.

Its just an idea, zelda games need to have variety. Like how OOA had the time traveling to solve puzzles and minish cap had shrinking. TP never eally used the wolf form to do much besides combat. I think zelda is more about solving puzzles in dungeons. If they are going to make a gimmick, i want it to be used in puzzles.

See I really fucking hated that dungeon and it's a big reason why I PH is one of the least favorite Zelda games. I think though it had more to do with me just not liking that dungeon then being forced to play it over and over again made it way worse. Dungeons are all about exploring and solving puzzles putting a timer on a dungeon just seems antithetical to the entire purpose of the thing.

It's accurate though every dungeon goes through the exact same routine to get to it. You pick up a scent, follow the scent, tears of light (or other puzzle/collection event), action scene, dungeon start. The dungeons themselves were actually pretty nice once you get into them. However everything inbetween is following a painfully obvious formula that gets fucking boring.

Nothing they do will ever beat out OoT in terms of sales or scope anyway

Honestly between Zelda U looking even worse than usual and it being split apart across a dying system and one we don't know anything about I doubt it will even sell anywhere close to as much as Ninty wants it to

I'm not sure how I feel about letting players attempt all of the dungeons in whatever order, but maybe they could split the game into chunks. Say, three early game dungeons, three mid game dungeons, and three late game dungeons.

If you had actually played TP you'd know you only need to pick up Tears of Light 4 times.

The scent mechanic is used 5 times and only one of them is followed to a dungeon… through a completely linear path in the mountains.

There is only one action scene prior to entering a dungeon (required) when you have found the last tear of light and need to get to the water temple.

None of the entrances to the dungeons were formulaic in any desvribable way, at least not more than any other game.

Thanks for proving you only hate TP because of memes.

Is OOT the best selling one I never really looked into it, but yeah if Zelda ever becomes a giant sales success again it will take a few stellar games for that to happen. In terms of scope though of course it can be beaten in fact it already has been. Windwaker in terms of just shear size of the world is far far bigger though I know that isn't what you mean. Twilight Princess though is a much bigger game in every way. It's one of the reasons why it's so disappointing. They just looked at OOT and made decisions on how to make it bigger and better like how everyone else makes sequels. Then the few places they did experiment were just bad experiments. Like the wolf it looked and sounded really cool but in practice it just made for more boring combat and dumb areas where you just press the A button and watch your character auto-jump like in fucking sonic adventure.

Well, yeah you do run the risk of making every dungeon easy as eating pie because you need every one of them to be accessible and doable.

The one way out of that is to make further exploration of the dungeons more rewarding with rewards you WOULD want to get. Like heart containers or something like that.

I'm reminded of the phantom hourglass actually, where they attempted to make a game only go down a single dungeon but they made items you got have an effect on how quickly you could traverse the dungeon each time you needed to get down to the lower levels. Maybe something like that could be retooled?

Your idea seems like a good way to split up difficulty though. The first set are easy and introduce you to the concepts. The second set gels concepts together, the third set makes you really think?

Ok here is an outline of a walkthrough for TP

Chapter 1 – Ordon Village - town
Chapter 2 – The Twilight - action scene
Chapter 3 – Faron Woods: Twilight - tears of light (puzzle section)
Chapter 4 – Forest Temple - dungeon
Chapter 5 – Kakariko Village: Twilight - tears of light(puzzle section)
Chapter 6 – Death Mountain - village
Chapter 7 – Goron Mines - dungeon
Chapter 8 – Lanayru Province: Twilight - tears of light (puzzle section)
Chapter 9 – Lake Hylia - village
Chapter 10 – Lakebed Temple - dungeon
Chapter 11 – The Master Sword - puzzle section
Chapter 12 – Gerudo Desert - action scene
Chapter 13 – Arbiter’s Grounds - dungeon
Chapter 14 – Scaling Snowpeak - puzzle section
Chapter 15 – Snowpeak Ruins - dungeon
Chapter 16 – Sacred Grove: Round Two - puzzle section
Chapter 17 – Temple of Time - dungeon
Chapter 18 – Hidden Village - action scene
Chapter 19 – City in the Sky - dungeon
Chapter 20 – Palace of Twilight - puzzle section (also kind of a dungeon)
Chapter 22 – Hyrule Castle - dungeon

The game is just made out of parts that they recycle throughout the game. They just combine them in different ways leading up to each dungeon. The parts never interact with each other and so feel the same. It becomes very obvious when playing through the game oh this is one of these sections. I'm not saying TP is fucking garbage or overall boring, like I said I really like some of the dungeons and the plot. It is just incredibly unambitious and safe. I was actually really looking forward to replaying it right before SS came out because I remember really enjoying the first time through. However once I got around to the Master Sword I was just like man this is a bummer.

intuitive design plays well here.
when you die in zelda 1, you start over in the center of the map (unless you're already in a dungeon). This means the player will be more familar with dungeons nearby the map's center. Some of these are the easiest dungeons/require least amount of tools.
Dungeons farthest away from player are naturally seen as more difficult, because of the risks and tools needed to just to get there.
So the player will naturally encounter dungeons that are closest and most easily accessible first. These can be the easiest dungeons themselves, and get progressively more difficult.
A player could just go to the last dungeon and somehow beat it, getting the uber item that makes the rest a breeze. But this doesn't break the game, it rewards exploration. Which is exactly what the series should be about.

...

So…are you in favor of what I propose or not? Seems like you're in favor?

Or maybe a synthesis as this would imply? Difficulty gets more intense as you fan out from your starting point?
yeah, that could work pretty well.

Do another Hyrule Warriors, give it alternate ´´what if…?`` routes.

What if Ganondorf does kill/capture Link and Zelda, but is shown to be a capable if iron-fisted ruler? What if your servants are now jealous bitches and you have to be always on the defensive? What if you play as one of the conspirators?

What if Link dies but Darunia/Ruto/Medli/etc somehow are now able the bearers of the Triforce of Courage?

What if Cia does capture Link? What then?

wait a second, maybe this is what we need? A game from Ganondorf's side?

How would that work as a game?

RTS?

ALttP: 12

OoT: 11+1

MM:6+3

TP: 9+2

Face it, TWW & SS were tiny little games stretched out with filler.

Depends on how you do it. I can envision several different versions.

One of them would be more like a turn based strategy akin to advance wars.

Here's how you fix Zelda;
1.) Actually make it more open again, like Wind Wanker and not the hub-world bullshit that was Squidward Sword

2.) Put more emphasis on having unique dungeons, quality over quantity, remove all the redundant ones

3.) No more retarded gimmicks like waggle touch controls.etc

Zelda was a great game series the way it was back in the ALTTP/Ocarina of time/Wind Waker eras, they should basically just go back there,

Zelda needs to stop catering to casuals. I want to see some devious dungeons with difficult puzzles.

every zelda has had a gimmick

Skyward Sword sold 3.42 million copies, which was considered a commercial success

OoT sold 7.6 million worldwide

Wind Waker sold about 3.07 million, well below Skyward Sword

Twilight Princess sold 8.85 million, outselling OoT

ALTTP sold about 4 million

And the original sold about the same

So not quite sure what you're talking about when you say OoT was the series pinnacle sales wise, its the highest rated video game of all time, but its not the best selling in the series, and Zelda games tend to just sell around 5 mill with each iteration

Tp was truly the high point of the series.

It really doesn't get any better does it?

For sales, maybe. The game was just a worse OOT.

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Exactly, I think it can be done with a 3D game too. There just needs to be much more difficulty and just one objective: clear all the dungeons.

3D Souls-like remake of NES Zelda.

Most overrated game series on Holla Forums

There was more freedom and open world that felt bigger in the original Zelda than Dark Souls. The original zelda felt like pseudo dungeon crawler with action gameplay instead of RPG, Dark Souls felt more like Resident Evil 4 with interconnected levels and swords.

But Souls are for kids, just like Zelda.

Wind Waker is empirically the best Zelda game ever created. Anybody who says otherwise is an illogical fool.

what about all the people in this thread that say it's not?

I think its the best Zelda tbh

Try the Internet. The second Dark Souls attained normalfag memegame status the fanbase became unbearable.

And youre a faggot, everyone knows seasons is the best zelda.

If we're talking 2D Zelda its ALTTP > Minish Cap > Awakening > Ages > Seasons > Zelda 1 > Zelda II

What are you? 12?

Zelda 1 >>>>>> all

Actually on revision I'll bump Zelda 1 above Awakening, it felt more like an arcade-y top down action game for my taste and less like a traditional Zelda imo

Ages and Seasons are some of the worst Zeldas. Awakening was good simply for being an action-adventure game with good graphics that works flawlessly on the gameboy. Minish Cap gets boring on a second playtrough. Zelda II could be decent if it wasn't so hard.

IMHO, it's Zelda 1 > ALTTP >>>>>> Zelda 2= Minish Cap = Awakening >> Ages = Seasons

naw m8

Link is now a stronk womyn who don't need no man and has zero faults
Zelda is a transgender feminist in love with link who constantly gives her opinion on current events and has zero faults
Ganon is now an (evil) white male
Gerudo are his slaves that link is out to free from Ganon's oppressive rule.

Art is retro-pixel style top down (or side scrolling depending on how much the kickstarter makes) with voices done by Ashley burch.
Plugging in your amiibo would unlock motivational phrases like "Smash the patriarchy!" or "Donate to my patreon! [link]"

This is pretty much what an overhaul of the series would amount to today.

Okay, it's pretty bad. The combat was great but the level design and enemies were a clusterfuck. Put it along with Ages and Seasons.

Soo… Basically any game with open ended level design?

Naw, elder scrolls and fallout have much more freedom than dark souls.

I think there's something about 2D games that makes them better to design, as far as the world goes. It's been mentioned above that smaller, uniquely styled areas with very obvious points of interest keep the game lively and bustling. In this regard, I think that OoT does a fairly good job of transitioning to 3D, with the exception of Hyrule field. Everything is relatively compact with no more than maybe 3 strong points of interest per area. But it still seems a lot easier in 2D because you have one less dimension to worry about and you have a tighter control on the size of your world. More than anything, I'd like to see effort going into making a large number of small but unique areas to pass through on the way to save the day. Ages and Seasons are still some of my favorite games for this reason. I think that once that issue is addressed, other things will fall in line. For example, with more varied areas, you have more opportunities to put dungeons in, more potential to wiggle around with the story, more/longer sidequests, anything you could ask for. If Ninty somehow managed to pull of a 3D Seasons, it would be like the second coming of Christ for Zoldo.

At the expense of literally everything else maybe, but that wasn't the point.

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Roughly the same setup as a normal game save for where Link would use a tool or Zelda would use magic Ganondorf just stomps fucking heads in and bashes down doors

Past Ocarina of Time he's not much one for political subversion, he's a really hands-on villain

Yes

Mainly just make it straight foward dungeon crawling and puzzle solving, and make like the 2D games and remove all the condescending tutorials and hand holding.

And take out fucking Z targeting. I looked dumb 18 years ago and it serves no purpose when real time combat is just as effective.

Z-targeting's to make combat less of a pain in the ass and keep you centered towards the enemy you're trying to hack up, a lot of things become a total pain in the ass without an automatic camera-center a la Z-targeting in the overall 3D Zelda setup.

Except that it's Current Year, and game development of 3D games is far enough to not need something as shitty as Z-targeting.

...

Also, manual targeting only works well with mouse+keyboard, like in jedi knight.

Maybe if you're fucking terrible at action games.

3D vs 2D in a zelda game is a distraction.
there should be no distinction, honestly.

...

What alternative to Z-targeting do you suggest, then?

Yeah no.

On the N64 it made sense. Due to primitive 3D graphics, developers still unsure of how to give players fluid control in a 3D space, and the horse power of consoles, doing any sort of hectic and complicated combat required to simplify things by giving players total control of a combat situation, so Nintendo realized they give everyone a magic that focuses on one enemy at a time, cutting off of opposition around you, basically applying tunnel vision that makes combat look unconvincing but manageable.

That was almost 20 years ago. We have two analog sticks to control characters and positioning the camera. Zelda isn't above adopting this simple control method. And sure, gives a button to center the camera, but don't give us this condescending bullshit that I need a magic button to know what I'm hitting and that tells the enemies I must not be attacked right now.

Seriously, give the franchise Ninja Gaiden. It's time to man up.

You're the one that can't into other control peripherals.

Remove it altogether.

Fucking Ninja Gaiden esque combat would be a start.

But the character must always face the camera, and the enemies must be static because it's a console garbage.

The oracle games have the smallest zelda over worlds. And wa heavily padded by gating content to specific seasons or ages

This will never happen, because Zelda can make more money by having casual combat.

Fuck I left out so many words.

Oh well, point stands. Z targeting is old, outdated shit. The only people who need it are octogenarians and 5 year olds playing their first combat oriented game.

Or, you fucking use both sticks to control movement and the camera like a normal game.

Yeah yeah.

Seriously though, once stuff like Devil May Cry and NG came along, z-targeting became a joke.

Nintendo should've dropped it at Wind Waker.

I know, what I mean is it has to be like an FPS or TPS where your character always face the camera so your sword swinging doesn't go all over the place. And the enemies must be static because if they were as nimble as the ones in Jedi Outcast and Rune, the player no matter how good he is will never be able to handle it, since it's a console game.

The Wii U or NX can handle it. Like I keep saying, since the PS2 era we solved how to give fluid control to players in action games, Zelda can easily adopt it as well.

So if it's a dated, bloated concept that was never actually good why the hell do modern and near-modern action games use a center-on-enemy function similar or identical to Z-targeting? Shit, Devil May Cry 4 is one off the very top of my head that uses a focus-on-enemy lock on button, but it also uses a third-person camera view roughly similar to Zelda's. I don't think I've ever seen Ninja Gaiden gameplay (closest I've gotten was a DS game that used totally set camera angles which may or may not even be related) but I sincerely doubt it has a third-person system like Zelda's if it doesn't have any targeting mechanic.

I was going to bring in Prototype as another example of a high-action game with more than one enemy to keep track of at a time in most scenarios that still benefits from a lock-on/camera-center function but, lo and behold, it's also a third-person game so it's beginning to show to me that third-person games that show the character from the back in most scenarios benefit heavily from being able to lock onto a target or center your camera on a whim.

Focusing on one enemy in particular (especially if it's the only enemy around) for a quick camera-change and get your bearings is too handy a tool to give up either from a player standpoint or a developer standpoint.

But the good Devil May Cry games have a manual lock on system.

Again, current year, even Tomb Raider isn't this shitty.

Vast majority of people I know that played that game, played it on Xbox. Go be an uneducated mustard elsewhere.

DMC uses it because of the sheer amount of crazy shit that can happen in that game, and even then I hardly ever use it for anything but buster.

Z targeting in DMC4 doesn't automatically mean the enemies hide in the background because your preoccupied with the one enemy you targeted. In NG you can center your camera, which is fine, but that's it. You have to be the judge on who you attack and from where, making sure your ass won't be grass. Again, 3D gaming has progressed enough that we don't need ztargeting to hold our hands anymore. We haven't for 15 years.

This is what was going on in my mind when I started the thread. More than anything, I think the combat and even just general movement of the series is badly in need of updating.

Still doesn't coddle players like Zelda does.

How does it coddle the players?

The enemies hiding in the background and doing almost fuckall while you engage in a tunnel vision fight with one specific enemy.

See

I have never noticed this, but I'll take your word for it. Sounds like what you actually want is more aggressive enemies, and not for them to discard a perfectly functional targeting system.

just searched and its impossible to find a minish cap rom
are any of you guys bad enough dudes to upload one?

The problem is that when you have enemies that behave smartly and attack at any opportunity, the hard shift the Z targeting does to the camera becomes a hassle because now you're guaranteed to have enemies you won't see attack you.

Nintendo just needs to give us more camera and trust that we aren't all morons who can't use a second analog stick.

I've got one, but I'll only give it if you can convince e9e73a that z-targeting isn't useless

No it needs to die, I like the Zelda series but it's obviously a tired concept at this point.

Is there a major difference between Z-targeting, and the system Dark Souls uses?

You can't, sorry I've played games that have combat systems that aren't designed for 6 year olds.

emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gameboy_Advance_ROMs/The_Legend_of_Zelda_-_The_Minish_Cap_(U)(DCS)/45103

Wow that took….like 3 seconds on Google…

Impossible now that arguments are being outsourced to others.

First Google search man.
emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gameboy_Advance_ROMs/The_Legend_of_Zelda_-_The_Minish_Cap_(U)(DCS)/45103

What? Enemies just stopping what the hell they're doing so you can tunnel-vision on one in particular doesn't happen even in Ocarina of Time, that's something to be blamed on how non-aggressive the AI is in general. Those blue/red spider things on Death Mountain will still barge into you regardless of which one you're targeting or where they are relative to you, for instance.

Okay, but you can have manual lock on, and also have hard combat. I'm not getting why you think the two are mutually exclusive.

I barely play Souls, but I hate the delay in its combat, but that's all I can say as I haven't played it much.

I've played enough 3D Zelda to know it's design is infantile and outdated.

did you even fucking click it?

"404 - Oops! Page not found.

Unfortunately, the link you clicked on isn't currently valid. There could be many reasons for this:
» Maybe the link has changed since we constantly update our site.
» The site which linked you in made an error while typing in the link.
» Aliens have abducted the page you wanted! "

OK fine. Since the game features a lot more melee action and isn't a shooter a light manual lock would be kind of cool if we could chain some combos together and have to focus on other enemies in groups a-la DMC.

That's my compromise.

emuparadise.me/Nintendo_Gameboy_Advance_ROMs/The_Legend_of_Zelda_-_The_Minish_Cap_(U)(DCS)/45103-download
Works just fucking fine for me.

I literally just downloaded it, check your DNS settings you fucking retarded piece of shit the links fine you're just a dumbass with a shitty ISP

you don't even know. my ports have been blocked since february all i can play online is killing floor 1 and some yugioh flash game

...

...

Fucking expire you useless shit.

That looks like 8 faggot.

it's 8. not much better, but at least it's not 10.

...

Here, nigger, try downloading this
anonfiles.com/file/52f782cde727cf8fd218dd83951bf9dd
It's not dolphin porn I swear

7Ultimate you sperg, pirated. I know what the OS looks like though.

That's exactly what someone who uploaded dolphin porn would say!

doubt it, treehouse may be cancer but it's nowhere near malignant. No nip company would go that far, at least not in this decade.

please god tell me I'm right

Yaoi Dating Sim Zelda of course

The game was literally OoT but better.

>if you're a Hyrule Historia autist, the massive plothole of Ganondorf/Link/Zelda having their Triforce pieces even though by the "Link goes back and tattles" child timeline TP takes place in Link would have had no need to claim the Master Sword and thus open the Sacred Realm and thus have a Triforce claimer split it due to impurity of heart

Over OoT it has being able to swing your sword around while on your horse and jogging, Midna, the colossal amounts of porn of her still being produced, and a few good bosses

Honestly, I don't think Zelda itself can really be screwed up to the point I wouldn't play it. So long as Nintendo doesn't go out of genre like Zelda 2, the formula is essentially foolproof. About the only realistic but unexpected thing I'd really like out of Nintendo is an official level-editor and mod repo.

What I'd really like is for somebody, almost certainly someone other than Nintendo, to make a 3D Zelda game/knockoff that's actually challenging. I say this would probably have to be a non-Zelda game from outside Nintendo because making a Zelda game (unless it's a low-budget handheld spinoff title) as hard as the NES games or harder would probably be a commercial disaster for the audience that currently makes up most of the modern Zelda playerbase.

Unfortunately, every single Zelda clone, fun as they are, seems to be even more casual than actual Zelda games, in spite of often being darker and more "mature" in tone. What I want is something with essentially the same mechanics and structure, but combat as deep as Soul Calibur or Ninja Gaiden that's hard enough where the constant threat of injury and death are realistic possibilities for me, puzzles as hard and interconnected as RHEM or Talos Principle that would require contemplation from me, extensive interplay between the two elements, and maybe, just maybe a comfy mature, sophisticated atmosphere and story.

I was going to reply but jesus fuck, I got to your second point and you're so blinded by nostalgia it's ridiculous.

Then you bring up midna porn and you just go full retard.

No, I'm pretty sure there was nothing but an occasional patch of monsters in between several minutes of riding around on Epona.

Why did none of you fags mention Majora's Mask? MM is the best Zelda they made. The most lively world and the time mechanic makes it more challenging.

Shit nigger I still love that game to pieces and it's a shame the plot's pacing is fucked and it's so easy. Okamiden's an even further insult since it removes the ability to quickly get around the overworld by making your jump worthless and your speed negligible and even manages to dumb down combat by removing the ability to have a secondary weapon.

OoT was FAR worse in that respect by LITERALLY taking minutes to walk across hyrule field and locking Epona to adult link only.

TP had a much faster running speed and you get Epona nearly right off the bat, on top of giving you wolf link for sections you don't who is even faster than normal link. it only took "minutes" if you were taking the long way to everything.

The overworld was WAY more stuffed than OoT too.

Take your nostalgia goggles off.

If Majora's Mask had more to it in the way of actual content I'd shelve the whole series then and there, and even then I vastly prefer MM over OoT. A couple more dungeons and half the masks not being useful for only one sidequest/piece of heart and I'd be able to die happy.

Sure, but I think that has to do with the limitations of the N64. They should be able to make a MM style Zelda with more content for the Wii U or NX.

Compared to taking… shit, probably 45 minutes to an hour to walk across Hyrule Field in its entirety, totally on foot, in TP? Epona being locked to adult Link is because you don't need to venture anywhere close to Gerudo Desert (hell you only need to hit Castle Town, Kakariko/Death Mountain and Zora's Domain before getting the Master Sword and you're not allowed into the Gerudo Desert past the bridge anyways) and you're either very confused or took the warp in Zora's Domain to get Ruto's bottle to be in Lake Hylia as a kid.

Faster run-speed doesn't mean dick because of how much the world's expanded in comparison to OoT (it'd still take longer to get to Castle Town from Ordon village than it would to get to CT from Kokiri Forest on foot) and getting Epona from the get-go ties into both Link being a bumpkin farmer not even native to Hyrule and back into the world being huge all of a sudden because it'd be a slog to get anywhere without the horse. I went in a straight line towards my destination and it did indeed take a couple minutes dashing as frequently as possible so there must be a mystical shortcut I'm not aware of.

I recall the overworld being about as stuffed as OoT, honestly. The most landmarks I can recall are around Lake Hylia or major towns with maybe a small cliff or a fencepost dotting the landscape in between them.

My nostalgia goggles aren't even on, I think OoT is boring.

Nigger you're talking out your ass Hyrule Feild is tiny as fuck

It takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds in game from sunrise to sunset, you can cross the feild in less than that time, night time is 1 minute and 20 seconds

TP failing to fix a problem that was already present in OOT doesn't really do much for my opinion of the game.

Everyone must be a tranny.

...

So you're going from hyperbole to an even bigger hyperbole.

Where the fuck's the hyperbole? Round-trip from Ordon Village back to it, totally on foot across the entirety of Hyrule in TP, I can see it taking 45 minutes easy.

A game more like the first one and less like the other ones. Open, difficult, filled with riddles and not "helper" characters. But with at least some in-world cues to hidden elements to prevent the whole "bomb every wall/burn every bush counts as 'gameplay' problem".

Pic is my favourite Zelda wallpaper.

It did fix it though, or if it didn't in your obviously shit opinion,it at least lessened it a great deal.

And It takes about an in game TP day to go from north of Castle Town all the way around to the entrance to the Zora Domain without going through caslte town which significantly shortens the journey.

TP's overworld isn't NEARLY as bad as you're making it out to be. OoT's was far worse. I actually played the games one right after another. OoT is actually really bad in comparison.

Do they realise they're talking about a series that stars a boy in a skirt. They've had what they wanted from day one.

No, and anyone who says otherwise is a fucking kike trying to destroy gaming.

We already know the new game is returning to its NES roots, so theres nothing to worry about, any further outside influence turns it into shitty TES garbage.

even being drunk im 100% certain i know whats better for the fans than the actual fans.

God, no, they're basement-dwelling teenage girls constantly being contrarian for the attention and self-victimization. They got what they wanted and then cried they didn't really want it give us this other thing instead.

Speaking of boys in skirts that NES-era Link costume for Hyrule Warriors Legends has a black void when Link has a groin-shot so it seems like Koei agrees Link's been going commando all these years

I hate to say it, but someone's gotta do it

Dark Souls and Demon's Souls

To expand on my sentiments in I wonder exactly how advanced the "genre" as a whole is. Can someone who's played a wide range of the games in the following list comment on the state of Zelda (even if only the 2D ones) as a franchise?
retro-type.com/xyz/index2.htm

TP is polished to a high shine (melee techniques, item combinations like the bomb arrow, more elaborate items like the dual clawshots and spinner…), true, but it sort of feels empty. Hyrule field is huge and bleak (though mounted combat and stumbling into cramped, mysterious lantern caves was really cool, both felt like abortive starts toward a better version of TWW's naval combat/islands), many extra systems (magic, music, only one transformation, twilight is less different than ALttP's Dark World or OoT's time travel…) from past games were stripped out, items weren't used enough in subsequent dungeons after acquisition, and (especially in boss battles) too much QTE reliance.

TP at its core was mechanically a laudable swan song for OoT's analog stick-driven formula before the failed experiment of SS's Wiimote transition, but asset-wise, TP was markedly and intentionally underambitious.

Hmm. What about all the "persistent world" stuff Miyamoto was bragging about when OoT was supposed to be 64DD exclusive, relying heavily on rewritable storage? Remember the preview coverage hype? Footsteps leaving trails, breadcrumbs attracting monsters, planting trees, painting stuff, digging holes, knocking stuff down, etc…

PH isn't totally unique in that respect. Think of how you had to visit Hyrule Castle twice in ALttP, or The Forsaken Fortress twice in TWW.

If I were going to do an alternate perspective, it would be one with Zelda, doing puzzle solving with magic in an ethereal realm alongside Link, sort of like Spirit Walking in Prey or cyberspace in System Shock. No, having pretty pink Alphonse Elric at your side isn't very Zelda-like.

Wouldn't doing the original Zelda in 3D really just end up too much like Metroid Prime with melee combat?

Agreed on MM being the only 3D Zelda with an overworld that nails the "handcrafted screens packed full of enemies, obstacles, secrets, and tiny puzzles" feel of 2D Zeldas. If Nintendo could somehow hire an army of level designers or a few hyper-autists and have them crank out a massively enlarged version of what MM accomplished with its overworld, that would pretty much be the ideal Zelda game.

This. Anyone who thinks analog sticks without a lock-on feature are sufficient for over-the-shoulder combat camera control, no less game design that demands rapidly switching between fast melee orientation and precise ranged targeting is delusional. I haven't played any Motion+/PSMove games, so for all I know the hardware is good enough, but I haven't heard of any games that measure up completely to mouse/trackball control in this department.
>Jedi Knight
>Rune
My nigger

He's absolutely right, look at any Sta/Liza/Wolfos fight, all but one of them will simply stand around like extras in a Quentin Tarantino fight scene jerking off.

I've never found a source to back this up, but there are widespread rumors OoT had a dating sim feature early in development.

I haven't played any Soulsborne games, but don't those games pretty much entirely lack puzzles (though what I've heard of their traps would be a cool addition to the Zelda formula), thus pretty much being pure action RPGs, rather than action adventure games?

They just need to do more with what they have
Harder puzzles, combat that actually uses all of the combat mechanics they include in the game, and more content in general

It would be extremely painful

Personally, I haven't thoroughly liked the art direction of any Zelda games since they went 3D. I'd like to just once, play a 3D Zelda where I liked all the character designs.

I think I get what you're wanting, fam.

Thank you very much.
Your tumblrshit gave me cancer.

2d games>3d games

Neat art though. Too bad everyone's grumpy.

No, this is more than mere Tumblrshit. This is something special, like, in the chromosomal sense.

...

I like this pic a lot. Thank you for posting it user.

Bloody Hell, you do know that Cyborg's is a STR build and half of his strength is from his biological muscles right? Or what, you think that all jocks are idiots and all engineers are runts like that pseudo-intellectual hipster boyfriend of yours? Talk about prejudicial.
Oh but of course you would draw Flash as a nigger. Because a white american can't be faster than a negro even though whites are almost equal to negroes in Olympic running competitions and Flash's power transcends biology, physics and common sense. Since you are so much less prejudicial than the rest of us, right?

His version of Flash is actually indian.

Gotta be fast to get to your favorite designated street

I'm pretty sure all 2D zeldas are like that.
Skyward Sword tried that a little bit and everybody hated it, demonstrating it doesn't work in 3D.
(I'm not talking about the empty Sky, I'm talking about forests filled with crap, stupid volcanoes, mining stations but no realistic places anywhere as in Twilight Princess, where you could find quiet cozy places everywhere. Remember that area directly north of Hyrule Castle?

Ganon: King of the desert.
Reunite the Gerudo tribes and pirates under one rule.
Secure the help of Nabooru and the Witches in order to ensure victory in the land and the sea.
Through diplomacy, convince the Hyrule court that you're just controlling a little civil war, nothing to be afraid of, no need to get involved in this.
Be wary of a couple of pesky brats who may fuck up all your work by collecting some magic jewelry in some abandoned graveyards nobody cared about.

Overhaul in what way? Change in core mechanics? Change in genre? Change in formula? Change in style?

Because they've done all of these and it's always been met with mixed reactions, or treated just as a spin-off.

What they need to do is nail down what really worked with each game and see if they can bring that into the next game.

Swordplay and combat was really good in Twilight Princess. Overworld exploration was really good in WInd Waker. Dungeon sequencing and player freedom was good in Link between Worlds. Puzzles and time travel wonkiness was neat in Oracle of Ages.

Don't just copy these elements, but understand the design philosophy behind them, and apply that to the next game.

Which reminds me, I don't really care about a totally new game. Majora's Mask is widely rewarded as one of the best Zelda games, despite being the only sequel that reutilizes a previous engine.

Now compare Twilight Princess with Skyward Sword. SS brought in completely new wiimote-swinging mechanics and a sky city as a world hub.
TP instead was more of the same, a gritty realistic Ocarina world. Oh, and now you can play as a wolf and follow scents.
I'd still prefer TP over SS any day because TP was what I wanted in the first place. Regular fights were the natural evolution from Ocarina's through WW. Try to remember fighting a Dark Nut from those games and now apply it to TP. Now bring in a second Dark Nut and add some miniblins and a wizzrobe.
Also, riding through the world was a prize on its own. That music, that scenery…

I wouldn't mind them doing a "Return of the Twilight Princess" with Hyrule Legend's amount of fanservice.

That's wrong just for the fact that grappling tool was worse than the hook shot.
Cutscene every time you swing instead of just latching on instantly.
Can only latch onto specific points instead of a lot of stuff like wooden chests and other places that weren't specifically designed to be latched on.

It still baffles me that Hyrule Warriors somehow has a better story with more characterization than practically every other Zelda game. The lore is a clusterfuck, but it works..

Fucking sinestro has seen across the 4th wall and has realized he could have been that instead of this. For him, that drawing is his own personal berenstain universe.

I'm thinking of going out and blowing some money today, is it actually worth it to buy Hyrule Warriors and TPHD?

How about just go make a new game you massive faggot.

if it's going to be a brand new game, it has to be good.

same for rehashes

HOW ABOUT YOU MAKE A DIFFERENT FUCKING GAME OR SERIES

MAKE A NEW FUCKING IP.

They still do that with the handheld games.

...

Hyrule Warriors is a great Musou game. If you like Dynasty Warriors, you'll like Hyrule Warriors.

TPHD is just most Twilight Princess, so if you want to play it again, then go for it.. Or just load up the Wii or GC version.

There's also several fanmade graphics mods under development

Yes. This art style.

FOADIAF

A true innovation

and at least 4/5ths of them are dead. Including the one you posted.

It works better due to the limitations of the console honestly. I'm not complaining as long as we get plenty of art styles.