Okay, now that we've established all of these, and are in full agreement that the only solution for Palestine is a one-state solution called Palestine, what happens to all the Zionist colonials within that territory?
Should they be able to stay, or should they be compelled to return to the countries of their ancestors, or are they allowed to stay under certain conditions (i.e. they agree to learn Arabic)?
Also, here's what Palestinians have to say on the subject:
youtube.com
I don't believe the one-state solution would be the only thing required. A regime would be required that respects secularism and ends religious bullshittery. I don't tolerate fundamentalists, whether they're Jewish or Muslim. They should all be gulaged if they cannot live together with respect for one another.
Arab and Persian Jews can stay, Ashkenazis have to leave.
This.
Send them to australia, they got plenty of room there and its a dessert too.
Palestinians ARE racialists. I have never met a Palestinian who didn't equate Zionist with Ashkenazi.
Except their conception isn't based in racial understanding. The middle east has known Jews since forever; even pre-revival and settlement projects by the Israeli state, there were Jews in Palestine. These Jews had, and still have, a very similar ancestry to the rest of the Muslim population. This is why even the biggest fundamentalist will force a Jew to renounce Judaism and join Islam before screaming allahu akbar; it's at its most basic a religious fundamentalism, not an ethno-nationalist one.
No. Most of the Palestinians I know say they would be happy to share the land with Arab and Spanish Jews who have lived in the Middle East before Zionism was a thing (they also assume that, due to the history of anti-Mizrahi racism in Israel, Arab Jews have an interest in supporting pan-Arabism over Zionism). They specifically say Ashkenazim are the problem.
I think all Israelis should just go the the US since they're the ones that are behind all the problems. See how they like it.
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Well, I have a practicing Palestinian friend, and what he'll tell me is that the issue truly lies in a mistrust in contemporary settlers not by virtue of being European (Ashkenazim) Jews, but because it is generally assumed that they, as European Jews, all most likely follow Zionist ideology and would thus not coexist sincerely with Palestinians. Since they effectively stepped on the sovereignty of Palestine, they therefor no longer deserve to stay there unless it can be assured that they will drop their supremacist fundamentalism.
A second holocaust, obviously.
Forreals tho,
Possibly also adding some "EU jew quota".
nice try
as far as i know most arabs hate the palistinians.
Nothing should be done about it by an outside authority. Topple the Israeli government and put a Palestinian one in control (ideally a democratic socialist one). Then have the people decide democratically what to do.
Britain probably also has to take some I guess since we were originally responsible but to be fair we haven't been their willing puppet for the last 70 years and they used terrorism against us even when we gave them what they wanted unlike the US except for 9/11 amirite
50% of the people between the river and the sea would be Zionist colonials though. Do you really believe there can be anything close to democracy?
This. Every Arab country holds Death to Israel rallies yet no one really gives a shit about the Palestinians. Even Hezbollah wants them out of Lebanon once Israel dissolves.
This is why anarchists have always sucked at anti-colonialism. "Hey guize we hate colonialism but states are bad so let's just agree to be martyrs." What the fuck do you think the Palestinians are going to do without a full decolonization of their lands? They're suffering enough as it is right now, what are things going to be like for them in ten or fifteen years when the Zionist entity has effectively carved up nearly all of their ancestral territory?
You know, I wonder if the Palestinians of today have more Israelite blood than current Israeli Jews. Hear me out.
I mean, as an ethnonym, "Arab" is sort of a fluid thing. I mean, Berbers who speak Arabic are sort of considered to be Arabs, even by other Arabs. I would imagine that other Semitic people (Arameans, Syriac people, etc.) that converted to Islam at some point or other after the spread of Islam and took up the Arabic language are also considered Arabs. Additionally, a lot of the initial converts to Islam were Jewish. It wouldn't be too crazy to think that a lot of people in that area probably had a strong admixture of Israelite blood in them.
And, despite not being a religion that particularly want's converts, it's not unheard of for people to convert to Judaism. That sort of thing was probably pretty common where Judaism held sway, such as the Khazar Empire. And we know that Jewish people intermingled with the other people who they were around quite a bit. Just look at your average Ashkenazi. They don't look particularly Middle Eastern.
Just saying.
That's what I'm saying: Palestinians realize Ashkenazis are invaders and will never see their lands as officially decolonized until Ashkenazis are either gone or in a weakened state (i.e. their lands and houses are redistributed to Palestinians, preferably refugees).
They can all go to Brooklyn, Five Towns, or several cities in Florida.
sure but you gotta be prepared for the uzi wielding children backed by surgical strikes spreading out over more and more of the atlantic northeast
en.wikipedia.org
We have quite enough of that, thank you very much.
All of you people who are spouting "deport Ashkenazim" are fucking insane.
That shit would never fly in the 21st century. "B-b-but Israel is doing it right now!" - yes, and Israel is facing tremendous scrutiny from every country in the world except the USA for its crimes against the Palestinians.
Like it or not, large-scale Jewish immigration to Palestine began over 110 years ago when Russian Jews were fleeing the pogroms. Meaning, there are plenty of Ashkenazim in Israel whose great-great-grandparents were the ones who originally set foot there - why the FUCK would they just willingly leave? Not to mention most Mizrachim and Sephardim (Spanish Jews) were never Zionist until Arab nationalism began accusing them of being pro-Zionist and thus labeled them as enemies (this happened in Morocco, Egypt, Iraq and Syria during the 1940s), and effectively drove them out. Even today, a large number of the Jews migrating to Israel never wanted to migrate at all but were compelled to by growing Jew-hate.
Perhaps this is an appeal to emotion on my part but my point still stands: you're not going to simply send these people back to Russia, Germany, Morroco, or Yemen.
They have to go back to Europe.
No, they should land on the moon and run out of oxygen, tbh.
This, but they are fucking cancerous.
Don't try to form any new state, try to live pecafully with your neighbours, avoid nationalistic or tribalistic temptations(Zionism) and they should be A-OK.
Agreed, even though the basic sentiment is justified. If an American native tells me that he wishes White Man hadn't stolen all his tribe's land and that we should fuck off to Europe, it's a reasonable thing for him to say, but it's obviously not going to happen. I think a humane middle ground should be that we institute an Israeli "refugee" program, similar to how we do with Cuba. Any Israeli willing to move to America or Europe and renounce their Israeli citizenship can do so with no quota or limitations. This will drain educated people from Israel and shrink their population.
If Palestine did recover the entire area, I think they could fix it in a very simple way. Just cancel all dual citizenships, force the choice on them.
Giving Jews incentives to leave Palestine wouldn't work to help the Palestinians at all, because those hard-liners would chose to stay, leaving the Palestinian leadership with rabid Zio-nuts on their hands.
No, it would drain working-class people from Israel. Why would intellectuals leave when they're doing okay?
What if I'm Israeli and I'm mixed European-Yemenite: where do I go, Yemen or Poland?
wherever the fuck you want mate.
but you should go to Poland IMHO.
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That's why I sent him to Poland.
Anarchists are hilariously hypocritical.
Crown Heights.
So what are the Palestinians supposed to do? Form a coop or anarcho-syndicalist union?
How many Palestinian anarchists are there? Probably very few, and most of them probably live in the West anyway.
Would you have advocated the same thing for black South Africans or Zimbabweans?
Zionists paid a lot of Jews in Arab countries to leave, why can't American Jews just pay Israelis to move to America?
If There's anything Leftypol and Pol prime can agree on it's fuck the evil joos.
They were oppressed for literally a thousand years in Europe, but fuck them because these other people are not jews—, I mean they're brown.
I do believe Jews were living fine in America and the Arab countries before Zionism happened. Arab Jews would have all taken up pan-Arabism had Zionists not paid them to help colonize Palestine.
There are two acceptable forms of discrimination in America, Against Lower class whites (Red-necks and Italian New Yorkers) and discrimination against Jews.
The First is acceptable because they don't meet Bourgeois Moral standards, the second is acceptable because the powerful Jews control everything so why would they be mad.
What I'm trying to say is you're brainwashed against Jews because these two groups (poor whites and Jews) are safe targets that the powerful can direct their class aggression towards.
As for Pan-Arabism, it's impossible to say what the Middle East would have done outside of English and American Interference. They were Sunni and Shiite before the evil joos and they were manipulated by the English before Israel Existed.
Tl;dr the media taught you to redirect your aggression to Ashekanazi Jews just every other generation before yours to did centuries before.
*Just as they taught every other generation before yours to do for centuries before.
Fuck, that came out wrong.
Sunni vs. Shia wasn't even a thing before colonialism and the Western-backed Saudis began introducing Wahhabism (which is nothing close to the real Islam).
Also Zionists bombed Iraqi synagogues to get Iraqi Jews to move, true fact.
Let them stay but seize their property.
Good idea. Melbourne will no doubt take them in.
Arab + democracy = moar terrorism
Go back to >>>Holla Forums please
give the jews Wyoming. Nobody wants it, nobody needs it, and it's unimportant as a state.
This tbh.
I don't care about jews, I care about the Zionist state of Israel that is a bridge-head for imperialism in the region.
also
That's so fucking false. Say something mildly offensive about jews and their organizations will sue the shit out of you, and before you sperg out at me for being some Holla Forumsintelpro fuck I would like to say that I don't believe in jewish world conpiracies and generally don't care about jews.
Muslims are also literally permitted to lie to non-believers. It's called "taqqiya".
Look, I'm gonna lay this out, and no, it's not a troll. I am a genuine left-zionist. I believe that under capitalism, peoples have a certain right to self-determination, and the Jews in Israel have lived there long enough that to deport them would be no less than an act of ethnic cleansing.
That said, I oppose the oppression, eviction, apartheid, and genocide of the Palestinian people. If they decide that they do not wish to live under a majority Jewish government, and many of them have expressed that they don't, then they also have a right to form their own state to look after their interests. Otherwise, they should deserve a full right of return and total citizenship in the Israeli state.
Ultimately, we want to make this question moot by the abolition of nation-statehood altogether, but right now our immediate concern should be halting the advance of Judeo-fascism in Israel, which has for a long time been the driving force behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
How does this make you a zionist tho?
Because I believe in the fundamental tenant that Israel has a "right" to exist. That's all zionism is, or at least, all that it should be. That no one who has made a life for themselves deserves to be "pushed back into the sea". That, considering the continuing extent of anti-Semitism in large parts of Eastern Europe, that the need for a "Jewish sanctuary" is still relevant today. I do however wish for an Israel that may be free of the control of the United States so that it may come to a peaceful settlement with the Palestinian peoples without being used as a pawn of imperialist interests elsewhere. That's all I want.
So, have other nation states a "right" to exist?
What "large parts" are you talking about? I get Ukraine to some extent, but nowhere else to the point that a religious group needs it's own country. You're starting to sound like a liberal here.
I think what's gone on in Ukraine is just the most visible manifestation of what exists throughout the region. Some of the most rabid Holla Forumsacks I've seen were from Eastern Europe or, even moreso, the Balkans.
And by the way, it turns out that a lot of religious groups HAVE found themselves in need of the protection of a state. Witness the breakup of Yugoslavia (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Islam), Sudan (Christianity/animism vs Islam), Iraq (Sunni, Shiia, Kurds), and so on. Under capitalism, an independent state is the most effective vehicle to secure the interests of a minority group. Hence we supported the national liberation movements in the 1950s-1960s. Zionism came of age during the same era, and it invokes many of the same principles.
If you want to take a principled stance against all forms of nationalism under capitalism, that's fine, but make it principled. That means accepting that the Palestinians have no more of a right to a state of any kind than the Israelis do. Don't keep perpetuating the idpol double standards.
But still no major outbreaks of violence against them, no mass movements that preach their extermination.
You're twisting my words here, protection of a state is qualitatively different from getting it's own state and pushing away the native population and brutalizing them for decades.
What you say is equivalent to saying the displacement and extermination of native american tribes was A OK because the protestant settlers were oppressed in Catholic Europe.
You still didn't refute the central point, you don't need a state to organize a militia.
Should they? Yes. Will they? Probably not.
See above.
Are you going to pay for it with monopoly money too?
One state solution of any kind is national chauvinism.
Anything other than a two state solution is backwards and reactionary.
Antisemitism is still common in France. I've been to Jewish neighborhoods in certain French cities and saw security everywhere. During protests against Israel's 2014 massacre in Gaza, random French Jews were attacked on the basis that they were "Zionists".
Honestly, I'd rather be Muslim in the US than Jewish in France at this point.
So you must also be against Saudi Arabia, Turkey, modern Egypt, and nearly every other regime in the Middle East aside from Iran then, no?
Even post-Gaddafi Libya is getting a government sympathetic to Western interests in the region. Soon going after Israel merely for "imperialist enabling" will be moot as the US, UK, and France will have many more countries to support their interests.
Better: give them Vermont. Literally the poorest state in the northeast.
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Fuck you I live here.
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Start a new, artificial, secular country not founded on religious or ethnic lines and subject it to international scrutiny.
Pretty much, you fucking faggot. Not Lebanon, Tunisia, or Rojava though. Also, Iran and Syria aren't imperialist, but they're still bourgeois allies to the bourgeois Russian state, which only has its own interests at heart.
oh wow so shocking.
you can't be a leftist and not be 100% anti-zionism and anti-imperialism. you are literally a fucking retard if you don't support the palestinian struggle for liberation
so create a state not founded on religion? oh you mean what palestine was before jews declared a jewish caliphate and apartheid state where class denomination and rights are based simply on what religion you happened to be born into?
I'm pretty sure OP is pro-Palestine, idiot.
Plus some of the Palestinians in the video are living within Israel's pre-67 borders.
What should happen to the Jews living between the river and the sea? Should they be compelled to leave or can they stay?
of course jews stay, they destroy their apartheid jewish caliphate though and israel goes back to being called palestine. palestine becomes what it was literally before the state of israel was formed. aka a secular progressive nation not crippled by imperialists/ and not a fucking conservative pseudo-jisis apartheid state where palestinians don't even have the right to return to their own home land after being kicked out but some sectarian biggoted eastern europeans.
and of course once the apartheid state falls, true socialism is inevitable in time
It was literally part of the Ottoman Empire, you dolt, aka under Shariah.
Pipe dream. Both Israelis and Palestinians are more right-wing than they've ever been.
nice try jew, palestinians fought against the ottoman empire and christians and jews and muslims lived in peace, actual communism just never had the time to get to them and british imperialists jumped on it.
yeah tell me again how the victims of extreme imperialism are actually right wing conservatives. most palestinians are left wing, you will maybe find .00001 person who preaches actual islamic conservatism. why the fuck do you think fatah, plo, pflp, and pflp-gc exists retard?
I've actually been to Palestine, and I can tell you the only left-wingers there are the hipster youth. Most Palestinians are actually reactionary who would rather return to a small-scale capitalism than create socialism.
Palestinians don't associate "Zionism" with "capitalism". They do, however, associate "Zionism" with "Ashkenazi/European Jews".
I don't understand how one can be anti-Zionist without being entirely racialist. Of course the Palestinians are going to want a land reform done primarily according to race rather than class.
ITT: antisemitism
Casual reminder that the left stands for universal values and not cultural relatavist noble savage orientalist exoticising bullshit: solidarity with the workers of Israel and Palestine.
counterpunch.org
No such thing as an "Israeli working class" (or at least, an "Ashkenazi working class"). Even if they do shit jobs they're still benefiting from the colonial apparatus.
The moderate Islamist government which was elected into power after the Arab Spring began making deals with the French shortly afterwards.
My god you people don't read.
Kinda like how you can't be racist against a white person because they benefit from the system? Go back to Holla Forums you fucking sjw.
What about the Hareidim who study the Talmud all day and don't work?
this has to be the stupidest fucking thing i've ever read in my entire life
this.
as a leftist you have to be anti-israel. the palestinian cause is not anti-semetic it is anti-zionist, even hamas goes out of their way to correct others when they say kill jews to "kill zionist jews"
you literally cannot be for the worker/on the left without being anti-israel. it is a straight contradiction.
It's not you dipshit. Every Palestinian I know says they specifically view Ashkenazi/European Jews as the problem (compared to Arab, Spanish, Persian, and Ethiopian Jews) and won't consider Palestine to be fully decolonized until Ashkenazim are either given the boot or politically in a weakened state (i.e. their apartments and farm lands are seized and given to Palestinians).
It's identical to the situation in Latin America where "white" and "capitalist/bourgeois" are synonymous.
What we have to watch out for here is an excuse often used by stormcucks. They say they hate Zionists, not Jews, but essentially contend that all Jews are Zionists.
stormcucks hate all jews. they will say what they say but in the end they are guided by anti-semitism based on their just as bullshit religion.
us on the left who are truly secular, truly care about what is right and wrong and know all of mankind are brothers and the rights of the worker are more important than anything else. we understand apartheidist states and imperialism goes against our entire ideology so in the end we should should stay firm and adament in our anti-zionist views while being pro-jewish worker (just as we are pro-muslim worker), if we even slightly compromise with zionist right wing imperialist shills or think siding against the palestinians is rational because "both can be bad" then we are just as ideologically bankrupt as the right.
99% of the ones who are pro-israel in america are the republicans.
ITT: people who truly believe Palestinians care more about cleansing the souls of their colonizers than they do about obtaining their basic human rights.
they have to go back to russia
Even if the Ashkenazi Israel's family was originally from Germany?
Anybody against a 3 state solution is insane. It is christian holy land too. Palestine - Israel - Kingdom of Jerusalem. A final solution to the semite problem.
NO!! Keep those kikes outta here!!! We've got enough Jews trying to influence pedal in Canberra, let alone those dirty seppos from Washington.
The moral thing to have done in South Africa was to have deported or seized the lands of whites - Mandela didn't enact anything close, and today SA is trying to pimp its image as a "rainbow nation". Take into account whites in SA were never more than 20% of the population during the Apartheid Era.
Now take Palestine: half the people between the river and the sea are Jews, roughly a little more than half the Jews are Ashkenazi, a few more are mixed Ashkenazi-Mizrahi or Ashkenazi-Sephardi. So, if we're going to throw them out, we're talking about removal of anywhere from 25%-30% of the population. Why?
Every so often we see articles from Zimbabwe about the disaster their land reform caused, and how Mugabe has begged whites to return in some instances. What does that reveal to us?
Good luck removing this.
oh come on…
You don't have to remove them by force, you know. Once you take away the Zionist state apparatus you give the Jews NO incentive to live in Palestine, just like how most of the Pieds-Noirs fled Algeria on their own terms once decolonization began.
Thank you.