Is Identity Politics Really The Problem?

"If the Palestinians ever go mainstream, I'll stop supporting them."

- Jean Genet

Calling out identity politics & its many shortcomings has become something of a meme on here. I've been a committed communist (Marxist-Leninist, leaning towards Trotskyist, who's explored various tendencies) for the past seven years, & I've seen the rise of social-justice activism, which marched side by side with the labor & anti-imperialist, anti-war movements during the Bush years, its move towards the mainstream during & immediately following occupy, as well as the preeminence of academic social-justice, with its liberal & class conciliatory aims & prerogatives, including critical race theory, gender studies, the consolidation & symbiosis of the LGBT+ movement (with it the exclusive emphasis on gender transgression), etc.

"SJWs" & the more crude segments of the liberal left has become a favorite talking point of the alt-right, now on the rise in America & Europe. Much of the public has also grown tired of hearing about transgender people, apologetics for Islam, so-called "ghetto" (that is, déclassé) attitudes, mannerisms & behaviors among poor American blacks from the left, condescending anti-intellectualism in the name of the working class, reverting to simplistic slogans & piss poor rhetoric ("we have to dumb ourselves down so the stupid workers can understand what we're saying"), etc. To compensate for this, being that the left relies heavily on mass popularity, we've seen some segments of the left turn more towards the right in some areas in an attempt to maintain popularity, or at the very least tone it down on issues of race, sexism, gender & minority issues strictly in favor of class.

The question I want to pose is as follows: is identity politics really the problem, or is it assimilation? In the past, the radical segments of anti-racism & anti-sexism, as well as sexual + religious minorities were movements & groups existing on the fringes of society, deemed too unsavory or threatening to the status quo to be acclimated into the mainstream. Eventually, all of these groups went mainstream, one way or another, with the exception of some particularly unpopular groups deemed unassimilatable, like the severely "mentally ill," more extreme "perverts," "religious extremists," etc. This greater inclusivity in the west has been decried by the right as a deliberate perversion of European patriarchal civilization by "Cultural Marxists" in liberal academia, but all of this is actually a byproduct of late-capitalism.

Over time, with greater immigration into the advanced industrial countries, with their riches, from the poor, underdeveloped, "backwards" countries in the Third-World, beset with poverty, came a more lucrative reservoir for cheap labor, resulting in greater inclusivity in the workforce; once old sexual biases against women were overcome by capitalist modernity, the bourgeoisie came to perceive that women were more profitable in the workforce as opposed to unpaid (and therefore unappropriated) household labor, and so the care of the children was left to the schools & daycares, the care of the home left to housekeepers; homosexuals & other sexual minorities more productive working in the greater society out in the open rather than concealed homeless whores in alleyways or married in closets, etc.

Capitalism is always concerned with expanding profit, no matter what. It will (and has!) sow the seeds of "sin" & callously (or casually..) do away with tradition & the morality of old, if deemed socially necessary. The problem isn't divisive identities among the working class but their assimilation and mainstreaming into the capitalist superstructure. As Hakim Bey says, there ends up being a market for these people. That's the real issue we're facing, & not fringe identities.

Thus, capitalism has achieved a number of our longtime goals in our common fight against the continuation of certain cultural & ideological leftovers from feudalism & the traditions of old: the unification of humankind via immigration & the preference for financial identity over the national, cultural or racial identities; the destabilization of the family unit (an instrument of reproducing capitalist ideology among the children & the enslavement of women), etc. Huey P. Newton referred to this as "reactionary intercommunalism." It then becomes the job of communist internationalists to transform this reactionary intercommunalism into a revolutionary one.

In closing, identity politics could be a blessing in disguise. These movements are also particularly useful for us when they are on the fringes. It would be a grave mistake for left to attempt to undo the past few decades of the historic class-struggle & the fruits they've bore. It's not the popular masses but the revolutionary masses that we're concerned, being that we aren't populists: revolutionary minorities over contented majorities.

Just some food for thought.

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The "alt right" is equally identity politics.
From a commie perspective (and materialist perspective) the problem arises when you have the capitalist pigdogs, pardon me, the capitalist elite, using the identity demographics as just another way to market their policies. The basic economic inequality is ignored, the "left" that was supposed to care about that shit doesn't - is now neolib and all into capitalism, solely caring about equality to oppress those below them on the economic scale, and ignore all opinions to the contrary. This then via establishment narrative, as fucking planned (really no other way to put it) feeds the 'reactionary right' who also, ignore the economic structure and inequalities, and also solely focus the whole thing on identites and equality amongst who gets to oppress everyone else…

It's fucking bizarre, really. But there you go. Welcome to 2016.

Yes, identity politics is the problem.
Let's move one.

Precisely. Capitalism's adaptability has ensured its survival thus far, hence the assimilation of the economically viable minorities among the working class into the workforce & superstructure, which has the dual advantages of quelling a potentially revolutionary force & maximizing exploitation & therefore profit. The right then jumps in to demonize the minorities, further dividing the working class against itself. The job of the left should be to unify the revolutionary forces among the working class (including the lumpen proletariat, an especially revolutionary force ignored by many Marxists but often utilized by the post-left Anarchists), not in spite of the fringe but appealing to its anti-establishment tendencies.

Get fucked, Jew. We know about your scheming usurious ways, and we know how your "diversity" undermines healthy, high-trust societies.

Okay, why is identity politics "the problem"? My whole point was that capitalism assimilation of identity politics into the mainstream was & is the real dilemma.


lol

classagainstclass.wordpress.com/

Also, shameless self promotion, I've started a blog recently, going to post stuff on it relating to imperialism, Marxist economics & theory, left political strategy, etc. Currently working on something about imperialism in Latin-America. Follow it if you want.

I used to run a semi-popular blog called "Crimes of Colonialism" where I'd report on war crimes in the Third-World, mostly the middle east, but a lot of the material I posted there was sub-par. Going to edit those old articles & post them nonetheless. I'm currently studying history at university level and intend to become a historian. Eventually I'll probably polish the articles I'll post here & work them into academic essays or something.

And you're telling us something we already know.
Some of this shit was devised by capitalist to keep the working class divided.
The whole thing plays right into their hands.

Some didn't seem to get the memo. Anti-feminism, white working class centrism & other such sentiments are gradually becoming endemic on the left, especially among white male leftists who feel alienated by SJW monologues & the impulse for whites on the left to say mea culpa, no matter how well meaning or down with the cause they are.

"Inclusive capitalism" has become the new moral agenda since the 1990s. The identity politics you see today on tumblr and sites like EverydayFeminism merely reflect that: the end goal is to ensure that the market caters to otherwise "deviant" groups so 1. conflict between groups will be resolved without much effort and 2. the market can keep expanding into new territory.

Even Shillary has been appropriating (gasp!) SJW type language during her campaign. So, it's not that "SJWs are the future mainstream"; they already are the mainstream.

And you're acting as if the reaction to stacking and other garbage is their fault.
Social Justice groups are one thing and so are feminist. Not all of them are SJWs. muh privilege checkers deserve to be left out in the cold since they are inherently divisive. Also, I don't see how white working class centrism is any different than other identity politics. All that shit needs to fall by the wayside if we expect to get anywhere productive.

Is it their fault? Not necessarily, they're misguided, not enemies, but at the same time, as Marxists we need to be willing to criticize & self-criticize comrades & ourselves.
White working class centrism is distinct from the identity politics, good or bad, of minority groups because the white working class is in the majority, often tends to be middle-class & has certain social & economic advantages over the minority groups. Not to mention they benefit from the colonial relationship the federal government has with indigenous (including Chicano) & black people. Much like the Israeli working class who, despite being exploited by capitalism, benefit from & often support the colonization & displacement of the Palestinians & Lebanese, & are part of the obligatory colonial military apparatus.

The thing is, no one in either the First or Third World (assuming that distinction means all that much in the first place) identifies as a "worker" first and foremost. Nearly all the radical leftist movements and leaders in the world today are primarily race or religion focused. The Zapatistas, for example, aren't industrial proles but indigenous Maya people who fight not for "muh factories" but for their traditional way of life against neoliberal takeover. Similarly, most radical leftist movements throughout Latin America are lead by indigenous and/or Afro-Latinos (even Chavez won his election through pandering to indigenous and Afro Venezuelans). Likewise, conflicts which are clearly about class and inequality of wealth and natural resources take on the characteristics of a racial or religious struggle; Nigeria is a very good example where poor Muslims in the northern part of the country fight rich Christians in the southern regions NOT for communism but along religious lines. The same thing is true in places like Kashmir, the Caucus, etc.

And let's face it: for most people in the colonized world there is no separating capitalism from white people. Even the Palestinians openly associate "Zionism" with "Ashkenazi" and specifically state that their lands will never be fully decolonized until the Ashkenazi Israelis leave (they believe Mizrachi Jews from Morocco, Yemen, and Iraq can be "re-Arabized" after a one democratic state is achieved). But this is hardly unique to the Palis as most Latinos feel the same way about their countries: "white" and "bourgeoisie" are completely interchangeable in countries like Brazil and Peru.

How? All you did was list some arbitrary descriptors.

That's me, and I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

All you're basically saying is they're on top right now due to capitalism, so fuck them if they want to work toward stopping it.

and that's the problem

Nationalism out of necessity is much different than nationalism for its own sake.
The Sandinistas started the same way but became something else in the long run.

So they're fight the symptom and not the cause.
Great.

So let's wash our hands of it and let this identity politics circle jerk continue till the end of time?
What the fuck is even the point you're trying to make?

It's distinct in that the white working class is a majority group that benefits from systemic white supremacy.

You're indigenous/Chicano, but you don't know what I'm talking about, in terms of the colonial relationship the government has with indigenous people? Are you aware that the pigs kill Native-Americans at the same rate as they do blacks, despite Natives accounting for like 1% of the population? Or that Pine Ridge is basically Third-World? I could go on & on.

Alright, since we're sharing, I'm Native-American mixed with Arab/North-African, & have experienced profiling & the like from whites, despite coming from a lower middle-class background & not being Muslim, so I know triply of what I'm talking about. The cops don't see wealth, they see skin. Doesn't matter if you're a rich Arab or a poor Mexican, whether you grew up in the ghetto or in a residential neighborhood.


I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. I support the communist & revolutionary segments of the Israeli working class.

You're not getting my basic point. Colonized peoples think the symptoms (white supremacy, Islam being forced into modernity) ARE the cause. Hamas, Boko Haram, ISIS, etc. aren't anti-capitalist but anti-Western BECAUSE they see the takeover of the Muslim World by Western imperialism to be solely a product of religious war, hence they fight on a strictly religious basis.

The same is true of indigenous peoples throughout the world: there is no separating white and capitalist.

No, but speaking like white people are inherently direct beneficiaries of that is dumb.
You could remove white people from the equation and anyone could fill its place.

I'm not trying to share, I'm just saying I'm in the thick of it, and I still think you're just spouting nonsense.

Then who care who's on top when it comes to capitalism right now.


Again, all you're saying is that they're fighting the symptom and not the cause. I got your point the first time, I just didn't think it was a good one. In fact, it further illustrate my point that identity politics is the problem.

Except we somehow have and I know for a fact the Sandinistas did eventually.
So yeah, I don't see where you're trying to go with this.

Some of them might, but they're also trained to profile people and all of that is based on socioeconomic factors.

You're right OP, what people call "identity politics" on the left have always been a part of revolutionary communist movements. The problem is liberal assimilation. That's why, for example, there's a distinction between liberal feminism and proletarian feminism (e.g., Anuradha Ghandy.)

The Sandinistas may have, but other groups certainly won't. There is no way in hell that the Palestinians will ever separate "Zionist colonial" from "Ashkenazi", for example, because they explicitly see European Jews as "invaders" compared with Arab/Mizrachi Jews whom they view as potential allies in their struggle against Zionism. As soon as a one democratic state is established between the river and the sea, the first thing the Palestinians are going to demand is a large-scale land reform (which is perfectly understandable); however, they is no question in my mind that the land reform would be on an entirely racial basis with farm land, kibbutzim, and apartment buildings owned by Ashkenazim being handed over to Palestinians. It doesn't matter if those Ashkenazim in question are rich or poor, religious or secular, Zionist or anti-Zionist - the point is, your average Palestinian specifically sees Ashkenazim as the problem and wants them out.

Thread theme:
youtube.com/watch?v=TWrlbRdJsSE

The alt-right is bad, but so are many left factions. Anarcho-syndicalism, for example, is just idpol for white workers.

nigga what

See:

what is an idpol?

Because nothing says high-trust like your neighbor calling the police and accusing you of being a Jew/communist because your son was playing in their lawn.

Hi >>>Holla Forums would you like me to schedule an appointment for your head to meet Mr. Pavement?

As it is, identity in the Western world is just untouchable. The "social justice" people are literal psychopaths that will dedicate their lives to destroying any left wing political group or movement that disagrees with them. It is their idea of fun because they are the spoiled children of baby boomers; I'd even wager it's just the modern equivalent of hippie counterculture, some vapid outlet for college age kids to "rebel" before becoming boring hacks like everyone else.

I kind of agree. A lot of lefties completely ignore the political and economic side of things in favour of idpol and only idpol. I think you can have some idpol in your larger repertoire but if it's your only area of knowledge you're basically a status quo bootlicker, you just don't know it.

Giant corporations will gladly give you the representation that you want and cynically espouse liberal platitudes if it benefits their bottom line. End of fucking story. I think the idea that proper representation of oppressed classes will fix everything is misguided and narrow. Capitalism will commodify and assimilate that shit up while continuing to exploit people in other areas.

I don't think it's a fundamental flaw of idpol that makes it dangerous as much as the Western status quo does. "All people have rights and deserve dignity" has become "fuck white males" and "white males matter like everyone else" has become "kill the shitskins".

See this for a better explanation:
youtube.com/watch?v=51re3q1yQmk

Almost all the Palestinians interviewed in this video are pro-Mizrachim on that very basis: Mizrachim are "still Arab" and are oppressed by Ashkenazim, so logically they would have more to gain from pan-Arabism aka Arab fascism than Zionism aka Jewish fascism.

Anarcho-syndicalism has little to no relevance anymore. Green anarchy, indigenism, autonomism, insurrectionism, even "lifestyle anarchism" like neo-Situationism or Peter Lamborn Wilson's TAZ (which he appropriated from Deleuze and Guattari) are far more in-line with modern conditions than ansyns are. Not saying that anarcho-syndicalism wasn't revolutionary in the past, but take a look at what kinds of anarchism are practiced in places where anarchists are actually active. Greek anarchists, for instance, aren't rallying up the unions but engaging in small-scale urban warfare and squatting buildings to create autonomous zones and housing for Syrian refugees. Let's not forget either that the US has very little union culture left so the chances of organized labor overthrowing the system TODAY are highly unlikely.

Also this:
youtube.com/watch?v=cJkxOF9QqEk

Listen to the Palestinians.

The only reason why idpol’s “punch-up” tactics hurt your precious snowflake feelings is because idpol has been wedded to the neoliberal power structure.

P.S. lmao @ "white males matter"

Dat girl at 13 minutes tho.

The amount of reddit in here is just getting out of hand.

I don't really get your point. Yeah assimilation is the problem but thats why lots of people here are against idpol, it's so easily assimilated that it appears to have little revolutionary power.
The ease with which idpol is assimilated is the problem, but its a problem that is inherent in idpol, thats why people hate it.

Could you explain further how you get to the conclusion that this could be a blessing in disguise? Because the ease with which idpol is assimilated is the very problem, I'm not seeing how its a blessing…

Yes, the Palestinians want a one-state solution, but they're not going to get it.

How does this happen? Divorce causes drops in productivity.

Decaying base = decaying superstructure

I'm guessing the "problem" is inequitable distribution of wealth. However the real problem, to me, starts at failing to name the problem: devising a formal definition of "capitalism."

Give me the TL;DR version pls.

You've misinterpreted the base/superstructure thing a bit. They can't be in decay because there's no fixed standard for them to live up to. To claim there's one is idealism, is ahistorical, etc.

Stop namefagging you steaming pile of shit.
Almost as bad as unannounced tripcoding.
Go suck a turd through a straw, and come back once you're older 13 years old

noone cares
Holla Forums is not your blog

If proto-'wymyn' used to be oppressed because it made more money, but now you can make more money by un-oppressing them or even letting them oppress the descendants of the oppressors, then logic dictates that there will be a change.

Stop wasting words or make a nice Clorox cocktail.

idpol isn't a problem because the sjws themselves are awful, but because of the evil people who seem to hijack their language.

OP, you're pretty much right in your general analysis but I don't see how it leads to any conclusion other than identity politics not being a safe bet for the Left.

Here's how I see it: capitalism doesn't only passively benefit from social movements by appropriating them and incorporating new segments of society into its patterns of production and consumption. It is also a driving force behind them, because it develops the productive forces to a point where its political superstructure will inevitably be a dynamic, open, more or less progressive one. I'm talking about urbanization, mobility of labor and capital, the creation of a market for leisure activities, standardization of consumerism, mass communication, mass education, the changes in the family, the necessity of higher-learning institutions to create skilled labor that also tend to nurture and disseminate new social theories, etc.

Now, I'm sure you know all of this, but if we take this as a starting point we're left with the conclusion that yes, identity-oriented movements are necessary, but they also serve a historical purpose that they can easily outlive and become superfluous, if not downright reactionary. And I think (or hope) that our general contention here is not that identity politics is inherently useless, but that in the developed world it is already starting to reach this later stage.

Once the productive forces of a society evolve beyond what that society preaches in terms of values, a moment of rupture is needed to re-calibrate our ideas in harmony with our material means of life. And this can happen through explosive social movements, through rational, calculated transformation by the society's managers, or through a long process of adaptation that is usually taken as "moral decay" because no one dares articulate and plan it. But once it's done it's done, and to try to repeat would be tantamount to creating an artificial axis of struggle that will keep serving as a sponge for absorbing society's dissent with its material circumstances.

So to make it short, we can't put too much money and energy on the horse of identity politics because it will become conservative either by capitulation or by remaining nominally "progressive" and hindering the development of a political consciousness that attend the larger demands of class struggle.

TL;DR the problem is not identity politics but the ways capitalism misuses it

Did the OP abandon this thread? What's the deal with that.

youtube.com/watch?v=_qAUBLkhoI0

Anti-idpol BTFO.

This is absolutely brilliant

sage

Why is anarchopac so pretentious?

top kek, my friend

yes

Can we ban obvious white brocialists like this from now on? They literally serve no purpose here.

wew laddie

No. Terrible arguments. No.

what does it mean?