/mg/ - Software and Hardware Minimalism General

Gabriel Mitchell
Gabriel Mitchell

For discussing software and hardware minimalism and minimal computing lifestyle.

What is computing minimalism?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalism_(computing)

Why software minimalism?
- Fewer bugs
- Better performance
- Lower memory footprint
- Better maintainability
- Higher scalability
- Longer software lifetime
- Smaller attack surface

List of minimal OSes and distros
ix.io/ZE2

Minimal programs lists
Alternatives to Bloatware: github.com/mayfrost/guides/blob/master/ALTERNATIVES.md

Window Managers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_X_window_managers

Suckless: suckless.org/rocks

Cat-v.org: harmful.cat-v.org/software/

Minimalism is not a lack of something. It's simply the perfect amount of something.

Attached: change.png (352.09 KB, 500x2000)

Other urls found in this thread:

github.com/arsv/minibase
st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback/
specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/
github.com/martanne/vis.
aquest.com/emacs.htm
github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/uapi/asm-generic/posix_types.h
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
suckless.org/rocks
harmful.cat-v.org/software/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_X_window_managers
github.com/mayfrost/guides/blob/master/ALTERNATIVES.md

Aaron Nelson
Aaron Nelson

oh look its another distro thread

Jose Thompson
Jose Thompson

i believe in minimalism but people here take it too far

Wyatt Taylor
Wyatt Taylor

Rate my setup, reddit.
OS
OpenBSD and Gentoo
WM
Ratpoison
Browser
Links and NetSurf
shell
mksh/pdksh
terminal
urxvt on Gentoo, xterm on OpenBSD

Hudson Carter
Hudson Carter

OpenBSD
(6/10)
Gentoo
(10/10)
Ratpoison
(3/10)
links
(5/10)
netsurf
(?/10)
mksh
(?/10)
pdksh
(?/10)
urxvt
(0/10)
xterm
(0/10)

Joshua Walker
Joshua Walker

OpenBSD and Gentoo
Both excellent.
Ratpoison
dwm
mksh/pdksh
Great choice!
urxvt on Gentoo, xterm on OpenBSD
Both absolute garbage. urxvt is a dogshit. Vanilla st or patched st is the only way.

Landon Wilson
Landon Wilson

github.com/arsv/minibase
This project looks really interesting. Basically implementation of common used tools to build the base of Linux distro and ditch GNU, systemd and other shitware. Everything is implemented using Linux system calls, not even a specific libc dependency. But as far as I know it is not stable yet.

Another interesting alternative would be ubase & sbase (suckless) + hbase (Morphious project) + sinit. But it doesn't look that well maintained, most stuff stopped being developed in 2014.

Colton Howard
Colton Howard

I know xterm is bloated but it runs way faster than st. What is the point of minimalism if the minimal software is much slower?

Landon Phillips
Landon Phillips

I actually use st + dash for scripting, the lack of features makes it inferior for interactive use. The reason I use xterm on OpenBSD is that it's already in base. Is there any other terminal besides those 3 that is usable?

Zachary Cruz
Zachary Cruz

the lack of features makes it inferior for interactive use
Anything specific? I can't think of anything really important. But yea in general if you want/need those features than st just isn't good enough.
xterm on OpenBSD is that it's already in base
Good point. Makes sense in that case.
Is there any other terminal besides those 3 that is usable?
Not minimalistic.

Samuel Cooper
Samuel Cooper

lack of features
What features do you even need from st that urxvt doesn't have? A scroll bar widget?

Jeremiah Bailey
Jeremiah Bailey

Tab completion/scrolling not working was the big one for me (I don't know if fixing it is trivial, let me know if it is).

Daniel Lewis
Daniel Lewis

Personal preference.The performance penalty is minimal on modern hardware. In general I would gladly trade performance for simplicity and correctness. For example OpenBSD has worse performance than Linux in many areas, but still I wouldn't disregard it.

Juan Sanchez
Juan Sanchez

Currently I don't have minimalist setup (using xfce), so I can't remember if my st had a tab completion, but I think it has it by default no? I know you have to patch scrollback or just use tmux.
st.suckless.org/patches/scrollback/

Dylan Bennett
Dylan Bennett

tab completion
Fish's tab complete works fine
scrolling
There are patches on the website for it to add scrolling.

Lincoln Nguyen
Lincoln Nguyen

What is more minimalism?
having separate programs for editing text and for viewing text. They will share 80% of code, because you need to view text to edit it
having one program to do both. Text editor is text viewer by necessity anyway
Second option leads to less code in the system overall but more code being executed at the moment, and I am not sure what's more important.

Hudson Hall
Hudson Hall

minimal = smallest example, size, speed etc.
minimalism = ideological belief that you must reduce details and features
If people actually thought about whether they wanted a featureless program or a small/fast one the gnu/linux world would be way less retarded.
To give you a perfect example. Kolibri OS is tiny. It has a GUI. GUI = bloat. So it's not minimalist.

Cooper Murphy
Cooper Murphy

An even better example of how little these "minimalists" grasp the very concept they're toting, GNU Emacs is a shell, a window manager, a text editor, a desktop environment, a userland--basically bloat incarnate. But because of a technical limitation of elisp, it will only ever use one core. Relatively speaking, it's tiny. Emacs is small, minimal, and light on resources--moreso than even most window managers--despite the fact that it's the antithesis of so-called minimalism.

Nathan Harris
Nathan Harris

Both absolute garbage. urxvt is a dogshit. Vanilla st or patched st is the only way.
You think that only because Luke Smith show you st. St is retarded. Scrolling is slower than any other terminal, it don't stop on top, simple color change is a mess and it takes more ram than urxvt.

James Williams
James Williams

not him but
Luke Smith
literally who?
Scrolling is slower than any other terminal
It's faster than uxrvt for me. This is likely due to st running at a higher frame rate.
it don't stop on top
What does that even mean? Both top and htop work perfectly in st.
simple color change
What's that? If you are talking about 256 colors, they worked out of the box for me.
it takes more ram than urxvt
st's RAM usage for me is kind of weird. For example one of them it is only taking 332 KiB, but for another it is taking 14876 KiB. It's kind of weird that when I start a new instance of st is has more than 332 KiB allocated. It probably has something to do with the scrollback or something.

Jace Cox
Jace Cox

This section is for small, usable development libraries, which can be used for writing software that sucks less. These should preferably be under the MIT/X consortium or BSD licenses, WTFPL, or public domain, or alternatively LGPL, because it makes them legally compatible with other suckless projects.
Great more permissive cucks who likes to take corporate cocks up their asses.

Charles Gutierrez
Charles Gutierrez

Anyone tried using dash as /bin/sh in gentoo?, I hear that gentoo has a lot of bashisms, mainly in the init scripts.

Daniel Richardson
Daniel Richardson

not having scrollback by default
<discarded
What's the point?
If it's not usable by default, then I won't use it.
As much as they're cuck autists, mainly MIT/BSD software is minimalist and to some extent still usable.

Wyatt James
Wyatt James

And some "MIT/BSD software" isn't minimalist and bloated to hell. And even among the majority of said software that does fit the criteria, almost none of it is minimalist enough to warrant the titular True Unix category that Macbook-toting elitists will divvy out to anything vaguely Unix-looking that also happens to be convincingly non-GNU enough to let them covertly and conveniently dismiss the ethical dilemmas strong copyleft addresses by conflating them with the technical flaws of GNU bloat--enough to characterize a license with the technical merits of software that coincidentally happens to be distributed under that license in typical shill fashion.

Josiah White
Josiah White

tfw your obscure minimal distro is so obscure its not in any of OPs lists
Its going to stay that way since anyone who thinks that systemd should stay as far away as possible.
For example one of them it is only taking 332 KiB
Literally what, its using 31K for me. Let me guess, you are one of those retarded larps who claim minimalism but continue to use gbloatc.

Connor Long
Connor Long

*systemd is minimal

Jose Myers
Jose Myers

Why is there debian on the list?
It's like the whole infographic is a mean to shill for debian and against gentoo/bsd/alpine.

Luke Myers
Luke Myers

How is dwm compared to i3? Is it noticeably lighter? Any features an i3fag would miss with dwm?

Jacob Taylor
Jacob Taylor

Any features an i3fag would miss with dwm?
Screen tearing, disgusting config syntax, meme cred.
I don't think the tiling works the same in dwm though.
If you don't like way dwm does it I would recommend bspwm over i3, though bspwm still has retarded configuration compared to dwm.

Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones

muh eceleb
If you really think people here are now using st because their favorite YouTuber told them to, you are delusional. urxvt is basically just slightly cut down version of xterm with unicode support and shitload of anti-features bloat. I hope you enjoy your Perl shit in your terminal.
b-but it consumes 10 MiB less RAM
I am glad you can now load 1/10 of a new Chrome tab. I bet you use Chrome also because of superior performance, right?
b-but I can't rice it every 10 seconds
Literally just keep the source code and change the colors, takes less 30 seconds and compilation time takes 1 second.
Minimalism is about simplicity and correctness of code not muh RAM.

Robert Kelly
Robert Kelly

If it's not usable by default, then I won't use it.
I agree with you that suckless people are tok autistic, but there is not better alternative to st. Urxvt is shit, if you like bloat and complex codebase might as well use VTE based terminal emulator if you can't patch basic shit.

Oliver Davis
Oliver Davis

Attached: minimal-guide2.png (153.86 KB, 702x962)

Cooper Russell
Cooper Russell

retarded configuration
I'd agree, but the default config pretty much does all the work for you. It's weird how it uses hjkl instead of jkl; in that config.

Adrian Rogers
Adrian Rogers

if you can't patch basic shit
If it's unusable without teared off feature, then that's packagers work, if the dev himself is autistic fag.
I use st as well, but fuck, point is that it's literal autism, not including feature that is ==ESSENTIAL==.

Henry Baker
Henry Baker

This but add mg to editors and netsurf to browsers.

Isaiah Gomez
Isaiah Gomez

UNIX and C are the cause of bloat.

* In another article DB writes:
* > Unix programmers have a bizzare idea of
* > efficiency. Emacs misuses pointers to save a few bytes
* > (while being huge and bloated), XWindows is a pig, but
* > hey, we saved a JMP! :-)

* That's not UNIX, that's MITnix. This massive abuse of
* virtual memory seems to have come in with the MIT "free"
* software: X, the GNU stuff, and so on... --

First of all, memory for PCs (and soon for workstations)
runs for about $30/MB, and 8 additional MB take care of both
X and GNU Emacs.

In addition, I won't say much about X, which I dislike,
although if I'm not mistaken most of the bloat has occurred
because of vendor requests. X 10 was much leaner, and
provided more than sufficient functionality as far as I'm
concerned.

With respect to Emacs, may I remind you that the original
version ran on ITS on a PDP-10, whose address space was 1
moby, i.e. 256 thousand 36-bit words (that's a little over 1
Mbyte). It had plenty of space to contain many large files,
and the actual program was a not-too-large fraction of that
space.

There are many reasons why GNU Emacs is as big as it is
while its original ITS counterpart was much smaller:

- C is a horrible language in which to implement such things
as a Lisp interpreter and an interactive program. In
particular any program that wants to be careful not to crash
(and dump core) in the presence of errors has to become
bloated because it has to check everywhere. A reasonable
condition system would reduce the size of the code.

- Unix is a horrible operating system for which to write an
Emacs-like editor because it does not provide adequate
support for anything except trivial "Hello world" programs.
In particular, there is no standard good way (or even any in
many variants) to control your virtual memory sharing
properties.

- Unix presents such a poor interaction environment to users
(the various shells are pitiful) that GNU Emacs has had to
import a lot of the functionality that a minimally adequate
"shell" would provide. Many programmers at TLA never
directly interact with the shell, GNU Emacs IS their shell,
because it is the only adequate choice, and isolates them
from the various Unix (and even OS) variants.

Don't complain about TLA programs vs. Unix. The typical
workstation Unix requires 3 - 6 Mb just for the kernel, and
provides less functionality (at the OS level) than the OSs
of yesteryear. It is not surprising that programs that ran
on adequate amounts of memory under those OSs have to
reimplement some of the functionality that Unix has never
provided.

What is Unix doing with all that memory? No, don't answer,
I know, it is all those pre-allocated fixed-sized tables and
buffers in the kernel that I'm hardly ever using on my
workstation but must have allocated at ALL times for the
rare times when I actually need them. Any non-brain-damaged
OS would have a powerful internal memory manager, but who
ever said that Unix was an OS?

What is Unix doing with all that file space? No don't
answer. It is providing all sorts of accounting junk which
is excesive for personal machines, and inadequate for large
systems. After all, any important file in the system has
been written by root -- terribly informative. And all that
wonderfully descriptive information after lots of memory
consumed by accounting daemons and megabytes of disk taken
up by the various useless log files.

Just so you won't say that it is only TLA OSs and software
that has such problems, consider everyone's favorite text
formatter, TeX (I'm being sarchastic, although when compared
with troff and relatives...). The original version ran
under FLA on PDP-10s. It is also bloated under Unix, and it
also must go through contortions in order to dump a
pre-loaded version of itself, among other things.

Jaxson Hernandez
Jaxson Hernandez

minimalism is better than utilitarianism
you are all edgy redditors who know nothing about computers and think that less is better

Brody Flores
Brody Flores

t. brainlet who doesn't know how to weave larger tools via scripting

Oliver Hughes
Oliver Hughes

Unix is a horrible operating system for which to write an Emacs-like editor because it does not provide adequate support for anything except trivial "Hello world" programs.

You are absolutely retarded

Jacob Cooper
Jacob Cooper

OMG, YOU CAN PIPE IO from one bash script into another?
WOW, YOU'RE A GOD,CAN I SUCK YOUR DICK?

implying I want bloat
bloat no, having to install everything by yourself because idiot who made the distro likes minimalism is a no go for me

David Cooper
David Cooper

le magical shell scripting is neither a language nor a program and therefore doesn't count as bloat
interdasting

Tyler Roberts
Tyler Roberts

You are missing the point of minimalism. The point is to reduce vertical bloat. It's not just about less is better, but an idea on how it should be distributed.
An example of vertical bloat is when you have dependencies which have dependencies which have dependencies which have dependencies. Eg. webapp depends on electron which depends on chrome which depends on a bunch of other libraries which depends on other libraries ...
With horizontal bloat, which most people do not consider bloat, your programs and data are spread out horizontally. For example, you could have separate tools for image conversion and video conversion. Why should you load all the resources for converting video when you just want to work on images. In this case of having more programs, you aren't adding more code which is going to take up more memory to run, but rather having them just take up disk space.

Charles Butler
Charles Butler

Can't you keep your /g/ shit at /g/

Caleb Long
Caleb Long

having control is a no go for me
please rape my face with GNOME so I don't have to spend a day getting everything ready for a lifetime of use

Evan Adams
Evan Adams

Good sh scripting (meaning POSIX compliant and not relying on too much external tools) isn't bloat but it'll take you far.

Jeremiah Nelson
Jeremiah Nelson

Bloat is fine as long as it's modular and decentralized.

Ryan Taylor
Ryan Taylor

POSIX sh is ass cancer, literally worse than PHP

Evan Brooks
Evan Brooks

unix.haters are too busy crying on kazakhstani bas-relief forums to program a new LispOS to fix what's making them cry so hard

Kevin Bell
Kevin Bell

no pdksh
vis instead of vi instead of sam
systemd is minimal
webengine is minimal
python
You disgust me.

How is scrollback buffer essential? Its duplicated code. dvtm and tmux both implement that feature. Its is not the job of the _Terminal_ emulator. Terminals didn't have scrollback. Also you could just use less/more etc.

Ryan Lee
Ryan Lee

Seriously, if you want to know what kitchen-sink bloat and unnecessary abstractions look like, Lisps and family are the way to go.
Arc is a new Lisp dialect!
Arc is very minimalist and simple!
Arc is written in other Lisp dialect called Racket!
Arc has built-in http-server!

Noah Brooks
Noah Brooks

Remove Debian (I don't know what you would put in its place, maybe OpenBSD?) swap vis for nvi (nano? really?) change ranger to mc, and add ratpoison to the window managers. Also, switch qutebrowser with netsurf (the framebuffer version).

Landon White
Landon White

add ratpoison to the window managers
tilingwindowmanagersmemoryusage.png

Nathaniel Sanders
Nathaniel Sanders

It's the most usable of them all, while also having the easiest customization. It barely uses more ram than dwm, and it uses less than cwm -- which is also very minimal.

Attached: wm.png (22.13 KB, 290x319)

Jordan Gonzalez
Jordan Gonzalez

My bspwm is currently using 1.3 MiB. It's also very usable and is customized by a shell script.

Nathaniel Mitchell
Nathaniel Mitchell

Oddly enough, scrollback doesn't work on my OpenBSD text console when booted in UEFI mode. It only works if I enable the old "legacy" mode, and then the console is also 80x25 instead of some weird mode based on 1366x768.
Anyway, besides those there's screen, less, tee, and script.

Michael Gutierrez
Michael Gutierrez

Are you using it without sxhkd/xbindkeys? If I were being honest, I don't think I could use anything besides ratpoison at this point. The keybinds I've been using for years (and the way it synergizes with tmux) are invaluable. If you want to try it out, the most important thing to do would be to bind the escape key to the grave key.

Jose Jones
Jose Jones

I think if it were AntiX net instead of Debian it would work. AntiX is poettering-free and really good at keeping memory usage low since it's meant for old hardware.
I thought I remember ratpoison having really annoying keybinds though it's been a while so I might be misremembering. I didn't realize herbstluftwm was as light as it is. Anybody used it? How is it?

Aaron Stewart
Aaron Stewart

I won't deny that, but you can bind the modifier key (default is ctrl-t) to the grave key (only takes one line in the config file), and then everything feels fluid. Binding keys is easy as well.

Nolan Thomas
Nolan Thomas

pic
Has minimalism gone too far? I feel pretty satisfied with my i3 install, how can 5.5M possibly be considered bloat?

Jack Lopez
Jack Lopez

it's bloated if you want to avoid SMM or Spectre using hardware

Logan Wood
Logan Wood

bspwm
$XDG_CONFIG_HOME is set or your bspwmrc will not be found
XDG Base Directory Specification Cancer
specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/latest/
Lennart Poettering

Attached: 1520824839198.jpg (21.01 KB, 462x318)

Ryder Long
Ryder Long

Every fucking time someone brings up bspwm you make this same fucking point and every fucking time someone tells you that it doesn’t have to be that way but every single fucking time you still bother to type in the same retarded shit.

Attached: 79C17AC7-6B50-4C42-B5C9-C61B51BF99AA.png (297.1 KB, 1366x768)

Gabriel Murphy
Gabriel Murphy

You know there is a Wayland version called bspwc yeah? Get rid of that xorg cancer

Grayson Barnes
Grayson Barnes

Why are you using a compositor?
You should also ditch feh for sxiv, and use hsetroot to set your wallpaper.

Ethan James
Ethan James

Thanks for the tips guys, now can someone nicely tell me how use wpa_supplicant? I always get errors trying to get on the network and when I scan nothing comes up, yes I have WiFi.

Julian Ward
Julian Ward

hsetroot
bgs.c
You likely need firmware for your wifi-card. I think dmesg should confirm this, but you can just try installing the firmware and seeing if scans work afterwords. You shouldn't need wpa_supplicant unless you are on a university/corporate network with EAP.

Michael Hall
Michael Hall

Yes I do. If you are wondering about the memory usage of sxhkd it's 604 KiB.

Benjamin Walker
Benjamin Walker

Do SliTaz, antiX, and Tiny Core (especially Microcore) contain any bloat at all?

Angel Perry
Angel Perry

SliTaz, antiX
using GNU Software
Bloat.
Tiny Core
no gnu software
good.

Note I'm not talking about GCC, as terrible as it is, it is unavoidable.
Note2licensefag I'm not talking about the licenses. Clang is the same cancer as gcc, except it can't even compile the linux kernel.

Cooper James
Cooper James

tfw on a university/corporate network with EAP
or how I learned to stop worrying and love NetworkManager

Jeremiah Murphy
Jeremiah Murphy

The Rust coreutils project provided great deal of inspiration, specifically by showing how not to write coreutils.
kekt

Hunter Rogers
Hunter Rogers

"A list of operating systems and distributions that aren't bloat" and it has FUCKING SLACKWARE IN IT. And the "alternatives to bloatware" lists a bunch of shit that shouldn't be used at all, like fucking google drive.

OP's whole post sucks. Honestly it's looking like a troll thread. Well executed in that case.

Tyler Phillips
Tyler Phillips

Google Drive
Note that the line mentioning Google Drive is under the "File Server" category, featuring an arrow-separated list of progressively more minimalist implementations. Therefore one would note that Google Drive is listed leftmost in that category, and thus considered to be most bloated option.
kys

Parker Carter
Parker Carter

progressively more minimalist implementations
lol it's just some autistic ranking which means fucking nothing.

Nathan Martin
Nathan Martin

This sounds odd today, but my first PC was a 486 with 4 megs RAM. I installed Slackware on it, and it was very usable at the text console with programs like Lynx and such, or even some games that used svgalib. Normal X was too big, but there was a cut-down distribution called TinyX that came with rxvt and twm. That worked well enough to run a few rxvt's and rclock (smaller than xclock). Netscape was out of the question (it would send machine into swap hell), but Mosaic worked okay.
So yeah, things have gotten bloated these days.

Angel Hernandez
Angel Hernandez

Well, I guess it comes down to the flavor of minimalism. What people in this thread seem to be describing is minimal resource usage, as opposed to suckless minimal LOC.

Bentley Howard
Bentley Howard

no pdksh
mksh was forked from pdksh and is actively developed
vis instead of vi instead of sam
What is wrong with vis? It's small enough
systemd is minimal
It's not, but it's not entirely my pic. I use void
webengine is minimal
qutebrowser is the best fully-featured browser without too much bloat

swap vis for nvi
why not ed?
nano? really?
It was there before I edited it. Still smaller than vim
ranger to mc
Not really that smaller. I can remove ranger instead of this
add ratpoison to the window managers
There is no need for listing every wm

Parker King
Parker King

I think most of the memory being used by wms and terminal emulators nowadays goes towards font rendering.
It was not a big issue back in the day of low res monitors and ANSI bitmap fonts, but now if you want to put some letters on screen you have to keep several font faces implementing different (and overlapping) parts of Unicode space in your memory, rendered from vector representation in high resolution.

Austin Gomez
Austin Gomez

What are some other window managers that are less than 1,000 lines of code? I know that catwm is at around 600 but any other ones like that?

Brayden James
Brayden James

I just finished configuring my Thinkpad:
installed Gentoo
no Xorg
using GNU Screen + Vim
All I need. With Libreboot it boots at blazing speeds.
DWM is ~2000 SLOC

David Anderson
David Anderson

using GNU Screen + Vim
Try abduco + dvtm

Tyler Campbell
Tyler Campbell

Not him but aren't those abandoned?

Jacob Cox
Jacob Cox

This, I don't want to seclude myself to some "everything is a minimal C program" -utopia. That'd mean not having Nextcloud, public transport route planning, no participating in Uni courses which use Netbeans, no making demoscene productions as a one man army with convenient tools like Rocket (needs Qt for editor). Probably lots of more personal examples. I like to keep things reasonably simple, but I have a modern computer with plenty of resources and I'd really like to use it fully. LARPing is stupid.

Jaxon Bennett
Jaxon Bennett

Try abduco + dvtm
Ehy, thanks man, I'll definitely try them.
dvtm seems particularly interesting!
Check the git, they are both non-bloated piece of software, so if you encounter issues you could with some effort maintain them by yourself.

Angel Reed
Angel Reed

You mean finished?

Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey

Minimalism is a meme unless you only need computer to do one or few jobs which is okay though.

I prefer KDE and my RAM footprint floats around 470MiB with all of my required sticky notes, widgets, and custom icon pack, cursor, themes, vsync (no tearing) and all that bells and whistles animations or transparent blur wobbly windows and yes, the fonts MATTER a lot more before complaining about 'muh bloat'.

I'd say XFCE and others are "more" bloated in a sense not even sporting all the features I need or even don't need.

Minimalism is only useful if you have a UMPC/PDA or netbook tailored to lower standby consumption and performance bloat to maximize the already low-powered processor it sports.

performance convenience vs power efficiency
not both
I bet you fags like identity politics and meme pill.

Blake Martinez
Blake Martinez

Most people here have a dumb concept of minimalism. For me, it's having what I need and no more. Like having no trash around your house, you know?

Thomas Stewart
Thomas Stewart

To contribute more, I will list programs that I consider "minimal".

Distros: Salix mostly - one application per task philosophy. No really good ones exist though (might make one myself).
Desktop environment - Between having essential features, not being too hard to use or looking too ancient, and no bloat - Mate comes out in top, IMO.
Music players - Audacious.
Text editors - Leafpad for simple editing, Geany for programming.
PDF viewers - Atril.
Terminals? Not too important. LilyTerm I like the most.
Drawing - Pinta, I guess. Always felt GIMP has too much shit in it.
Torrents - generally prefer aMule than the usual torrent programs. qBittorrent would be good if not for its qt requirement. IMO, in-built search is just too handy to have.
Browsers - None currently exist that both have essential features (lynx and such fail this criteria) and no bloat (firefox, chrome and such fail this). Ideal browser would have HTTPS everywhere and uMatrix functionality built in, but no shit like firefox sync, pocket integration or other crap that keeps piling up. No PDF readers and probably no in-browser video playing (send it to video playing application). The situation with browsers is just terrible - because we need the main ones for the essential addons (uMatrix, HTTPS everywhere) but they are bloated in other ways. Adblock / uBlock is bloat by the way. They need fat lists to work, and uMatrix is just superior in every single way (though it can use lists too, but I disable them). Pale Moon is the least bad.

Jonathan Lewis
Jonathan Lewis

the anti GNU thread reached Holla Forums
It's all over now.

Anthony Thomas
Anthony Thomas

mksh was forked from pdksh and is actively developed
mksh is pretty bad once you use openbsd's pdksh which is also actively developed.
What is wrong with vis? It's small enough
Wrong mentality.
qutebrowser is the best fully-featured browser without too much bloat
Again, its not minimal. Its a semi decent browser but webengine is essentially the antithesis to minimal. That alone makes qutebrowser more bloated than furfox.

The larping in this thread is intense.

Aiden Nguyen
Aiden Nguyen

mksh is pretty bad once you use openbsd's pdksh which is also actively developed.
could you point out differences?
Wrong mentality.
Why? It's small and functional at the same time. I'd trade 500KB and 4 more dependencies for features that nvi doesn't have
Again, its (qutebrowser) not minimal.
Sites are not minimal too. It's good for what it does
webengine is essentially the antithesis to minimal
I agree, but that's why i said it's the best FULLY-FEATURED browser. There is no working alternative to gecko/blink/webkit and all of them are bloated as hell
firefox as a browser comes with a lot of garbage which qb doesn't have. Engine is not the only layer

Liam Hill
Liam Hill

Minimalism is dead.
Nobody bothers to actively work on building true minimalistic tools. Suckless people maintain few projects like dwm and st, but those are so autistic they are barely useful. Everything else is a one man's pet project to scratch an itch. Most of them are barely maintained, basically on life support. On other hand you have reddit "minimalisic" memes like urxvt and vim, which are not minimalistic at all (horrible codebases). Hacker culture is long gone.

Gabriel Myers
Gabriel Myers

Who could have guess that
everything sucks and is harmful
Wouldn't lead to
yeah we could do so much original shit let's make brand new and cool stuff
But instead
ugh life is terrible nobody understands my drive for minimalist perfection
ugh Nietzsche was right these cattle will never understand the true void of the urxvt code base
ugh let's make a terminal with no features to show how empty and barren the world is
ugh I've killed myself

Easton Turner
Easton Turner

could you point out differences?
There are a few usability differences, one that I like is that in OpenBSD's ksh you can define an array of command argument completions.
The other differences though are hard to find. Origanally the mksh dev tried to submit some patches to openbsd but they told him to go away since his patches were pajeet quality and full of what they deemed as terrible ideas. So he forked it and applied his patches. If you look at his website he doesn't actually say anywhere what those patches were and instead just whines about openbsd not using mksh, all while spewing fallacies about unamed security bugs that he claims to have fixed.
The main reason I started using openbsd's ksh was because it was in base and didn't require me to install an extra shell, after that I moved all my linux installs as well so that I could share configuration between machines. The fact that mksh dev refuses to have a feature comparison between mksh and openbsd's ksh makes me unlikely to go back in the future especially considering he still applies loads of patches directly from openbsd.

Jace Myers
Jace Myers

Yeah you really figured everyone out, even though you don't know anyone here or what they're running, or what their needs are, and how they're addressing them.

Thomas Sullivan
Thomas Sullivan

wholly shit i just gained some perspective.

Nicholas Kelly
Nicholas Kelly

I don't want to seclude myself to some "everything is a minimal C program" -utopia
I doesn't need to be. People jump to pure C because it is the obvious "solution" in the sea of complex alternatives. It is easiest path to take, to just write as least features as possible with least amount of lines on tools that are proven. There is no reason GUI applications could not be considered minimalistic. You could have all those things if we build our foundation and tools the right way. It is all about the right level of abstraction. It needs to be done right, but nobody is doing the research anymore. We all are just building on decades old computer science research and "improving" it. The technology is not driven by researchers, but by corporate interests and selling shit to the "lowest common denominator".

Zachary James
Zachary James

There is no reason GUI applications could not be considered minimalistic.
The reason is all available GUI toolkits are shit, and shipping your own is a bit too much of work for "one man's pet project to scratch an itch".

Hunter Nelson
Hunter Nelson

Why is screen listed as superior to tmux? I thought it was considered harmful.

Jaxson Hernandez
Jaxson Hernandez

ok

Attached: mini.png (85.41 KB, 700x900)

Eli Carter
Eli Carter

firefox as minimal

stop it

Levi Adams
Levi Adams

i3
feh
vim
nano
firefox
Delete this image.

Nathan Wilson
Nathan Wilson

This is honestly so good. My current setup is i3 (no gaps), mpv, ranger, ncdu, neovim with deoplete and a few lighter extensions, latest Firefox, bash and dash. I know these are great and minimal software compared to say gnome or Windows 10, no matter what delusional autismos who wanna neglect current exciting computer culture say. However, I don't bother switching shell from Bash as many base Gentoo packages depend on it anyway and it has great completion.

Noah Barnes
Noah Barnes

and it has great completion
If you think bash has good completion, then you haven't used fish yet.

Carson Brooks
Carson Brooks

I have used fish, I can't recall why I stopped.

Jonathan Wood
Jonathan Wood

It is slow, not POSIX compatible, no bash compatibility mode and majority of scripts can contain bashism so you need to have bash installed anyway. Something like that?

Adam Clark
Adam Clark

Fix “Minimal” to “Featureless”.

Dylan Wright
Dylan Wright

I mean why would you need anything better than bash.

Landon Smith
Landon Smith

Because bash is bloated, broken pile of shit. And despite claiming standards compliance it is nowhere near there.
statically linked ksh
313K
dynamically linked bash
838K

why would you need anything better than bash.
Why are you ok with mediocrity?

Isaiah Collins
Isaiah Collins

I was specifically talking about completion and why fish's is ever needed over bash's, jeez, show us in the doll where the bash touched you.

Jason Cox
Jason Cox

Option completion is better in zsh, honestly. You can cycle through them by TABing and you get the option description too. Other nice thing is that you have completion for option arguments (e.g. ls --quoting-style= TAB will help you complete the style).

Connor Fisher
Connor Fisher

here's a blogpost about meme tier garbage I've tried.

ranger
I never use this shit, 99.99% + 0.01% of the time using the shell is faster.
fzf
Absolute meme, never needed, not that it's usable anyways, at least not until I wait 2 hours for it to be done scanning my wine envs.
neovim
Placebo autism, 80% of people who use it don't even contribute to it which makes it pointless, and this might just be my imagination but vim feels a lot faster.

Speaking of vim, what do you all think of this github.com/martanne/vis. Looks very promising.

Jack Brown
Jack Brown

show us in the doll where the bash touched you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellshock_(software_bug)

Evan Bell
Evan Bell

shit, meant to (you) you here

Oliver Reyes
Oliver Reyes

AFAIK bash's completions only work on tab completing file paths.
Here're some things fish does:
-auto completes command line options (along with a description of what it does)
-auto completes file paths
-auto completes the last part of a path based off a substring (eg. anime/Yuru\ Camp\ 12 can be completed to anime/\[HorribleSubs\]\ Yuru\ Camp\ -\ 12\ \[1080p\].mkv
-auto completes packages for emerge (probably works for other package managers)
-auto completes hostnames for ssh
There's probably more, but that's what I've personally seen it do.

Aaron Edwards
Aaron Edwards

-auto completes command line options (along with a description of what it does)
bash-completion does this
-auto completes file paths
bash does this
-auto completes the last part of a path based off a substring (eg. anime/Yuru\ Camp\ 12 can be completed to anime/\[HorribleSubs\]\ Yuru\ Camp\ -\ 12\ \[1080p\].mkv
bash doesn't do exactly this, but you can just use the wildcard character (*)
-auto completes packages for emerge (probably works for other package managers)
bash-completion does this
-auto completes hostnames for ssh
bash-completion does this

Jaxon Cook
Jaxon Cook

fzf is not what you think it is and ranger is not comparable to the shell. Also weird to call neovim placebo, pretty sure it is fully functional.

Carter Watson
Carter Watson

They must not been built in, because none of those work for me.

Jason Kelly
Jason Kelly

Kek, this.
Fish and Zsh are the mark of newfags who don't know how to use their shell. I don't use bash, but I certainly don't use shells even more bloated then bash.

Sebastian Rogers
Sebastian Rogers

Does your shell support autocompleting from history based off your current directory?
It's very convenient that I can go to one of my projects and when I start typing the command for compiling and deploying, fish discovers what's the correct one to use.

Elijah Martin
Elijah Martin

Nope, nor would I want it to. Why would I need it to do such a thing when I can just type 'make install'. When something has become so tedious that you need have the shell autocomplete it rather then you typing it, its probably time to write a shell script/makefile/whatever to handle it for you.

Ethan Scott
Ethan Scott

Long time bash user, recently switched from vim to vis. Feel free to correct me if your thoughts differ, but I'm starting to think of shells as:
vi = sh
vim = bash
nvim = zsh
<vis = ?
Following this analogy, what is the vis of shells? I want to throw out the rigidity of POSIX-compatibility, introduce powerful and proven idioms (like vis does with sam), but get rid of the unnecessary and bloaty extensions. I would like fish if it wasn't so heavy.

Angel Brooks
Angel Brooks

vis = ?
rc but with readline wrapper and readline wrapper is written in lua

Nathaniel White
Nathaniel White

No file path completion?

Isaiah Diaz
Isaiah Diaz

Oh, just realized I can use rlwrap completion.

Jayden Jones
Jayden Jones

Sometimes you don't realize that things are tedious and don't bother making a script for them. Another benefit of having it autocomplete, is that you are able to tweak the command before using it. Sometimes I need to change what file I'm scp'ing over or where it is going.

Julian Rivera
Julian Rivera

emerge -av bash-completion
you also need to add bash-completion to your USE flags.
If you're not on gentoo it should probably just werk.

Daniel Scott
Daniel Scott

uhhh, well, I guess it's 50% correct.

Hudson Evans
Hudson Evans

Attached: minilo.png (173.08 KB, 700x2000)

Leo Scott
Leo Scott

shell heaviness is retarded. Go make a minimal shell it's like ~100 lines. It will be just as heavy as sh. Go add readline to it. And it will be pretty much bash.

Joshua Moore
Joshua Moore

Go add readline to it. And it will be pretty much bash.
bullshit, mksh/oksh is 12x smaller than bash

Alexander Allen
Alexander Allen

minimalism
craptons of gnu shitware running between programs and linux

Choose one.

Josiah Lee
Josiah Lee

I want to throw out the rigidity of POSIX-compatibility

You should.

Stop caring about shit like BSDs and other *nixes from the 80s nobody really cares about and start writing code for Linux directly. Stop worrying about undefined semantics the standards authors forgot about, regain your sanity by programming against stable and documented interfaces and use all the features that Linux has to offer.

Chase Jackson
Chase Jackson

Fuck off retard. You don't want to throw out PoSix because its a piece of shit, you want to throw it out because you are a contrarian edgelord. Have fun throwing away all your programs in the future when you decide to use something else because you locked yourself down like a retard to one particular subset of linux that will likely be machine dependent. Despite being full of terrible ideas the sole benefit of posix still exists. It allows you to switch computers and even architectures without having to rewrite all of your software.

Jace Perez
Jace Perez

I don't think either of them use readline.

Attached: some-shells.jpg (15.54 KB, 475x78)

Nathaniel Sullivan
Nathaniel Sullivan

Speaking of /mg/, does anyone actually use mg and prefer it to emacs (besides Torvalds)? I've been considering changing to a more lightweight text editor.

Michael Peterson
Michael Peterson

MicroEMACS came on the Amiga Workbench 1.3 "Extras" floppy. The Amiga binary is only 62 KB.
Here's a more recent version: aquest.com/emacs.htm

Attached: extras-85.jpg (78.35 KB, 561x591)

Alexander Davis
Alexander Davis

Linux
machine dependent

Don't reply to me brainlet.

Easton Jones
Easton Jones

Pretty sure they use libedit.

Dylan Davis
Dylan Davis

Don't see it.

Nathan Stewart
Nathan Stewart

Huh, you're right, only dash uses it.

Aiden Rogers
Aiden Rogers

You need to calm the fuck down, nobody's talking about changing syscalls or any other part of userspace. I'm literally only talking about POSIX-standardized sh syntax (unbalanced parentheses, case/esac, if/fi, while/do/done). Plan9 rc, as the other user suggested, throws all of that shit out.

Jaxson Williams
Jaxson Williams

Do whatever you want. I'm sure it will be better than whatever POSIX standard crap people insist on using. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is better off following Poettering's advice: read TLPI and ignore eveeything it says about POSIX.

Adrian Ward
Adrian Ward

Why is this /g/ thread in Holla Forums?

Sebastian Smith
Sebastian Smith

Pretty much all the shells do this. Even better all the programming languages you can use.
If you want the bizarre hybrid interactive shell vs scripting language then idk. Wrap rc in readline and call yourself a minimalist I guess.

Ian Anderson
Ian Anderson

You don't have any idea what your talking about. Unportable code can make assumptions about types that are inaccurate: example assuming integer (native c type) is 32 bits . This can vary from architecture to architecture. So, linux, unix, or any OS can have machine dependant code unless standards like posix are used.

Michael Cook
Michael Cook

implying POSIX has anything to do with physical architecture
If Linux made such assumptions, do you really think it would run on as many platforms as it does?

Charles Bennett
Charles Bennett

systemd
minimal
LOL
sourcemage
have to manually set use flags for every package
LOLx2
freebsd
HUE

Robert Carter
Robert Carter

why is this Holla Forums user in /g/

Nathan Diaz
Nathan Diaz

The kernel and the user space are written to be posix / SUS compliant which is why they don't make assumptions about hardware. If you outright gutted POSIX, linux would either still follow something like posix, or essentially recreate something else like it.

Jason Robinson
Jason Robinson

I don't have any perl or perl accessories in my urxvt but you don't have any choise because you are not Gentoo™ user. And chrome is bad because it use more ram and you cannot close tab with letter d.
Literally just keep the source code and change the colors
You can't because st use hex color names for normal 16 terminal colors and X11 color names for foreground and background. Is shit.
Minimalism is about simplicity and correctness
I don't feel any simplicity by adding patches only to have slow and broken terminal.
Dwm doesn't have tabs and you must apply patches to have better tiling.

Evan Ward
Evan Ward

Linux is bloat use openbsd

Jeremiah Stewart
Jeremiah Stewart

You can't because st use hex color names for normal 16 terminal colors and X11 color names for foreground and background. Is shit.
Wrong. You can either use a hex code for the color OR the X11 color name. This applies to pretty much every virtual terminal out there for X.

Isaac Watson
Isaac Watson

STFU kid. Linux supports what, 80 architectures? It's the most successful operating system in history. The userspace-kernel interface is inherently architecture specific. You put things in specific registers and issue a syscall instruction. That's it.

Linux provides headers for user space that define and export every single C type that could possibly be needed to interface with the kernel.

github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/uapi/asm-generic/posix_types.h

Look at that shit. It exports things things like __kernel_{long,ulong,size_t,ssize,pid}_t. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TYPE MISMATCH, EVER. They use __kernel_ prefix because they don't want to pollute the user space's namespace. User space libraries will typedef that shit for you into shorter versions like size_t, ssize_t and pid_t and it will just work.

Like every single Unix-like ever, Linux differentiates itself through its non-standard features. Linux does A WHOLE LOT MORE than just follow standards. It defines a LOT of stuff that wasn't standardized and offers a shitload more features unique to Linux itself. Trying to write software that's somehow portable to fucktons of incompatible is the reason we have to use shit like configure scripts, even though GNU itself taught us the virtues of using a portable make rather than writing portable makefiles.

Jonathan Bell
Jonathan Bell

github
ugh
No package manager / download tool yet
So I need to use another computer or dual boot to get software and then side-load it.
Other than that, it looks good.

Aaron Long
Aaron Long

This is really cool. Thanks for posting it.

Dylan Bennett
Dylan Bennett

For discussing software and hardware minimalism.

What is computing minimalism?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalism_(computing)

Why software minimalism?
- Fewer bugs
- Better performance
- Lower memory footprint
- Better maintainability
- Higher scalability
- Longer software lifetime
- Smaller attack surface

List of minimal OSes and distros
Most minimal
LFS

Obscure minimal
FreeDOS, Plan 9

Hipster minimal
Crux, Source Mage, GuixSD, Void, FreeBSD

Autistic/sane minimal
OpenBSD, Gentoo, Alpine

Most sane minimal
Debian (netinst)

Minimal programs lists
Suckless: suckless.org/rocks
Cat-v.org: harmful.cat-v.org/software/
Window Managers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_X_window_managers
Alternatives to Bloatware: github.com/mayfrost/guides/blob/master/ALTERNATIVES.md

Minimalism is not a lack of something. It's simply the perfect amount of something.

Blake Bailey
Blake Bailey

There's something I don't understand though. Why doesn't the library simply include the kernel user space headers? A LOT of them are reproduced in the repository for no apparent reason. Stuff like linux/input.h was broken down into several separate headers and included in the library. Why?

It'd be better to #include <linux/*.h>, they're part of any normal Linux install. That way it's trivial to stay in sync with kernel. The programs would still be freestanding.

I dunno why Linux doesn't offer a generic syscall wrapper function as part of its userspace API, but that's about the only thing that needs to be written from scratch and even then its only a bunch of inline assembly lines; I see minibase already has great support in that area.

James Lee
James Lee

Saying LFS is the most minimal distro just portrays how you've never read any further than the preface into LFS

John Gutierrez
John Gutierrez

You literally build everything yourself, how can a prepackaged distro be any more minimal than that

Aaron Reed
Aaron Reed

Because you don't know how to optimise the compile of every package, and LFS guides you through building every individual component of a fully-featured GNU/Linux system.

Adrian Gonzalez
Adrian Gonzalez

LFS is the most minimal iso. I'm pretty sure that's the criteria there.

Rest is just the hipster distro bait list faggots think is funny. Y'know the one where gentoo is not a meme and debian is somehow notable for having a net install.

Logan Lee
Logan Lee

It definitely isn't. What about tiny core for example?

Nolan Fisher
Nolan Fisher

Assuming by LFS you mean following the "book", it is not as minimal as you can get. There's still a number of software you do not need to install which LFS has you do anyways.

Grayson Brooks
Grayson Brooks

most minimal
LFS
hipster minimal
GuixSD
most sane minimal
Debian

suckless
cat -v

It's like you're 14 and this is your first time on /g/.

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