The Nu-52

Aiden Turner
Aiden Turner

I never really got into capeshit until a few months ago, but I've heard all about the New 52 and just how much everyone hates this shitshow of a publicity stunt. Can anyone give a rundown of just how badly they fucked everything up here? My knowledge goes as far as:
tearing down old continuity like no other reboot had done before, not even the first Crisis
making Clark Kent a blogger
removing the Golden Age heroes from main continuity and placing them in an alternate universe as successors to the that universe's Justice League as a way of referencing the old multiverse?
black Wally
that Wonder Woman mansplaining bullshit
Batwoman's a vampire or something
everything involving Shazam CAPTAIN FUCKING MARVEL GOD DAMN YOU
What'd they do to the J.L.I?

Jackson Davis
Jackson Davis

It's very unanimously agreed the New 52 was a failure with some ideas being okay every so often or full of wasted potential. All in all it was an absolutely terrible semi-reboot that clearly had no real quality control over it. Luckily Rebirth is shaping up to actually be competent for the most part. And fills in some holes with well placed retcons. Though I admittedly don't like the inclusion of Manhattan as the puppetmaster behind everything. It's not a terrible idea but I just rather have the Watchmen characters stay gone.

Parker Green
Parker Green

Though I admittedly don't like the inclusion of Manhattan as the puppetmaster behind everything. It's not a terrible idea but I just rather have the Watchmen characters stay gone.
I'm kind of with you there, but I'm waiting to see what the writers are gonna make his motivation out to be. If Doomsday Clock is super meta like Infinite Crisis then I think it could be really good, but if they're throwing Manhattan in there as an excuse for him to fight Supes, then I'll be right fucking angry.

James Baker
James Baker

Don't forget how they completely and totally ruined Tim Drake in one fell swoop, when he was a character with a lot of momentum just before New 52 hit. Seriously, I don't think anyone went from being as red hot to being on life support as fast as Tim Drake.

Anthony White
Anthony White

And now he's in inter dimensional "we don't know what to do with you yet" prison.

Grayson Jenkins
Grayson Jenkins

God that bugs me. Did they fuck up Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain? I've seen bits I didn't like so I'm not sure if they are ok or not.

Hunter Butler
Hunter Butler

Oh, Cassandra Cain got it just as bad as Tim. They acted like they were going to do some pay off for their complicated relationship, 'Are they adopted siblings who are really close, is Cass sweet on Tim because he's the only one she really opens up too',

Instead, they had her do a heel turn, then 'killed' her, blue balling readers hard. It was a fucking trainwreck.

Lucas Phillips
Lucas Phillips

This. They didn't just fuck Tim Drake though, they fucked up a LOT of Batman universe characters like Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown (though Stephanie was constantly being fucked pver since the '00.) Then they had ridiculous shit like faceless Joker and death of Alfred and all sorts of facepalm moves. It was like they hired people that didn't know what the fuck they were doing and had their heads up their asses.

Nathaniel Cox
Nathaniel Cox

If there was one thing that is salvageable it's this. Lot of character growth, lot of action, good writing, 10/10 art. I'd say the worst thing about it is that they decide to kill off a rather improtant character to the Batman and Robin story half way through it but save it for batman corp(which was awful), and the ending is a little jarring.

Ayden Gutierrez
Ayden Gutierrez

Oh, and there's no lead up to that character dying and the comic before it doesn't even mention which comic the story picks up on. The comic before the characters death everything is fine and dandy, and the next everything is messy… it'll be like you missed a whole arc by the time you hit it.

Ian Howard
Ian Howard

Not too familiar with Nu52, but there's a lot of stories from creators who worked on it during that critical 2011 period, and if you look around, you'll very quickly get a picture painted for you.

One thing comics have a problem with is getting new readers, so doing a big continuity reboot is a great idea and a good way to get new ones! Only problem is that DC kinda sorta didn't really commit to it, I guess? From my understanding, they basically fast tracked what originally took many decades to build up backstory of all the characters. Not to mention they felt the need to tie in the reboot to a storyline with The Flash, so they couldn't even cleanly cut the hand off, as it were. They wanted all the fun of having their named characters but not any of the legwork it took to build them up.

Aside from that, like said, Tim Drake, and a lot of other characters were ruined when the reboot started, mostly because DC hired shitty writers/were pushing their older, more talented ones away. It gets thrown around a lot, but apparently the atmosphere in DC was very toxic during 2011, so much so neither their women or older creators could really stand it. Say what you will, you've got to cultivate a positive work environment for everyone, it seems that just wasn't being done.

Then of course the messed up continuity which they've been retconning all over the place, with the worst of it probably going to The Titans.

That said, yeah, they seemed to have evened out somewhat. At the very least, they seem to be on average putting out better content than Marvel, which is all that really matters at the end of it all, isn't it? Not all of Marvel's problems would be solved if they did a reboot, but at least then they wouldn't be working with all these convoluted characters, universes, and stories with decades upon decades of backstory.

Wyatt Cox
Wyatt Cox

Aren't they hinting Golden Age Superman is the actual villain, not so much Manhattan.

Anthony Hall
Anthony Hall

Wait, what the shit? Not only have they flat-out shown Dr. Manhattan's hand, the Golden Age Superman died way back during Infinite Crisis.

Brody Sanchez
Brody Sanchez

That said, yeah, they seemed to have evened out somewhat. At the very least, they seem to be on average putting out better content than Marvel, which is all that really matters at the end of it all, isn't it? Not all of Marvel's problems would be solved if they did a reboot, but at least then they wouldn't be working with all these convoluted characters, universes, and stories with decades upon decades of backstory.

Marvel is juggling like 20 things they wanna get across the same time. They want to promote their female heroes. They want to rape Steve Rogers. They want to swap Spiderman for Danvers as their poster boy(She looks like an ugly jared leto in most covers). They want to swap the mutants for inhumans. They want to market squirrel girl to kids and have her be a break out character (disastrously turning her into Marvel's jar jar binks). They wanna reboot their cosmic and deities.

Hudson Rivera
Hudson Rivera

Well, then who is this guy pulling Manhattans strings? prime? it's gotta be golden age sups.

Easton Baker
Easton Baker

Well, then who is this guy pulling Manhattans strings?
Seriously, user? That whole thing he said about the strings is a quote from Watchmen, where he's contemplating meaninglessness, it's not supposed to imply someone is somehow controlling Dr. Fucking-blew-up-Rorschach. Besides, that's not Golden Age Superman's shield. His S is drawn differently than the modern one.

Jayden Jenkins
Jayden Jenkins

One thing comics have a problem with is getting new readers, so doing a big continuity reboot is a great idea and a good way to get new ones!
Also, it's a great idea if you want to alienate your established readership. They should have just started a new continuity, one where they actually can do shit with their characters like have Dick Grayson replace Bruce Wayne as Batman permanently. Isn't that what Marvel did with the Ultimate universe?

Isaiah Bell
Isaiah Bell

The extent is at least it seems to be stable that Bruce is gonna keep his son, and the 4 robins. It's not as bad Spiderman at least, who keeps going back to highschool.

Jordan Thomas
Jordan Thomas

How can you even have Manhattan as an antagonist? Who can fight him? He's basically GodMan.

James Davis
James Davis

mr mxyzptlk. Batmite.

Brandon Powell
Brandon Powell

Well, there's Earth-4's Captain Atom who's basically Doctor Manhattan.

Consider that Mxy got caught…and oddly enough Batmite did made an appearance in the Nu-52 in a comic series…or was it a one-shot?

Nolan Young
Nolan Young

Shit, almost forgot about Tangent's Superman.

Connor Rodriguez
Connor Rodriguez

There was nothing fundamentally that bad about the New 52 that wasn't just general DC fuckery that was also present before the New 52 and is also present now. Say what you want about Azzarello's Wonder Woman, but his run was the first time in years that Wonder Woman was actually fucking readable.

Same goes for Superman, the first several years were fucking fantastic until Geoff Johns and company got cold feet and started sabotaging the character with garbage like Doomed and Truth and trying to bring back Pre-Flashpoint stuff. Golden Age Superman with edge was a great idea.

Batman suffered from DC not going far enough, culling Stephanie Brown and moving Cassandra Cain the fuck away from the Bat-Family was a step in the right direction, but they for some reason kept Tim Drake around even though he's been dull as shit for years because there's only so far you can go with little Mr. Gary Stu.

Fuck, even Captain Marvel actually got a proper update. Faggots whine that Billy Batson wasn't a saint while conveniently forgetting that before DC got their hands on him, Billy was effectively what a little kid with superpowers would be, which is a sneaky little smartass defying authority at every turn.

Basically, haters gonna hate. It was really no worse in the end that any other fucking reboot DC ever did.

Anthony Morris
Anthony Morris

It's just another one of Geoff Johns' fucking retarded ideas. How the fuck he hasn't been fired already is beyond me.

Michael Lopez
Michael Lopez

One thing comics have a problem with is getting new readers, so doing a big continuity reboot is a great idea and a good way to get new ones! Only problem is that DC kinda sorta didn't really commit to it, I guess?

They never do. DC always wants to have it's cake and eat it too.

Honestly, DC's reboots would be far better if they were soft reboots: keep the current continuity, but never reference it. Nobody needs to start at square one with characters like Batman.

It gets thrown around a lot, but apparently the atmosphere in DC was very toxic during 2011, so much so neither their women or older creators could really stand it.

DC during the New 52 was fucking crazy. There were tons of walk-offs, creator complaints, and just general fuckery. I heard that DC hired a bunch of fresh, alternative talent for Pu52, only to fire them all. Then you had Rob Liefeld and Scott McDaniel saying the editorial was actively trying to ruin books. It was a complete meltdown.

It's because he's the only person working at DC that has any inkling of the IPs they're publishing. That's why he's chief creative officer now. All of the old guard were purged thanks to company politics.

John Flores
John Flores

Damian dying under Grant Morrison's pen shouldn't be a spoiler given how quickly he came back.

Hunter Perry
Hunter Perry

But how did they ruin him?

Luke Edwards
Luke Edwards

apparently the atmosphere in DC was very toxic during 2011, so much so neither their women or older creators could really stand it

Kayden Jackson
Kayden Jackson

If you remember, DC actually fired Simone from Batgirl during that time, but she threw a bitch fit on twitter and got rehired.

Cameron Watson
Cameron Watson

That pic will never not be funny

Adrian Ross
Adrian Ross

Gail Simone is a corporate whore. She talks big shit, but when push comes to shove she'll do whatever editorial tells her to do.

Bitch needs her cushy job to pay for her doughnuts and milkshakes.

Justin Reed
Justin Reed

From memory: a) he never was one of Batman's robins (he took the red robin name just because) and b) they gave him a retarded costume, complete with bird shaped domino mask.

Austin Campbell
Austin Campbell

Yeah, but if you go into the comic not knowing what to expect it's pretty shocking… or would be if they would have led up to it better.

I also wasn't certain he was going to come back.

Elijah Phillips
Elijah Phillips

I would have preferred if he stayed dead. Though a dad/son relationship is nice, Damian is such a shit son.

Kevin Hernandez
Kevin Hernandez

Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Apollo, Shazam, Captain Atom, etc.

Literally anyone Superman tier. The only reason why Manhattan seems so Godlike in Watchmen is the total absence of anyone above human-level.

Leo Hughes
Leo Hughes

Manhattan can literally restructure reality according to his whim on a molecular level. Anyone you just listed, including Captain Atom, is fucking dead since he can just explode them with a thought.

Brayden James
Brayden James

Dr. Manhattan has no free will so he literally can't do anything not pre-ordained.

Levi Smith
Levi Smith

She's still alive in some way, yes?

Angel Baker
Angel Baker

What about Dan Jurgens? Ain't he an old guard too?

Sebastian Bailey
Sebastian Bailey

I actually like it better when it was Dick and Damien. Dick has that quality that works with Damien.

Nicholas Green
Nicholas Green

The fuck. I thought she was actually skinny.

Lucas Moore
Lucas Moore

capeshit meme
fuck off

Isaiah Taylor
Isaiah Taylor

Batman suffered from DC not going far enough, culling Stephanie Brown and moving Cassandra Cain the fuck away from the Bat-Family was a step in the right direction, but they for some reason kept Tim Drake around even though he's been dull as shit for years because there's only so far you can go with little Mr. Gary Stu.

This would hold some validity if Arkahm City/Assylem didnt show how well the characters can be done with competent writers. The problem wasnt "far enough" the real problem was they were flat out inept people in charge making decisions. They dont make long term INTELLIGENT story plans for money making characters and they dont have an understanding of valuable IPs they are paid to manage that people are willing to pay to read.

You dont need to cull popular SUPPORTING characters either since comics are always making up new characters so it doesnt feel like Batman vs Joker round 900. What you are claiming can be completely dismissed because of how utterly stupid it is.

Jordan Parker
Jordan Parker

They dont make long term INTELLIGENT story plans for money making characters and they dont have an understanding of valuable IPs they are paid to manage that people are willing to pay to read.

Blame Dildo. When he came in as Vice President-Editorial, DC was successfully capitalizing on the fanbase they built in the nineties. By the time he became Vice President-Executive Editor, he was already well on his way to annihilating that fanbase by pandering to nostolgiafags and focusing everything on the short-term sale.

Adam Green
Adam Green

I think he was only shitty towards Bruce at the very beginning. There were several parts I found pretty redeeming about his character and as a son.

especially the part with the pearl

Christian Murphy
Christian Murphy

I do blame dildo. He created a bunch of problems within the editorial staff and get rid of such writers as Chuck Dixon who know how to make a Batman that could properly interact with his allies and subordinates instead of just flipping his shit like others who only knew how to make him edgelord.

Sebastian Jones
Sebastian Jones

Nuke his origin lore which was 15+ years of stories, supporting characters, and history. Imagine Captain America. Now imagine Captain America was a hydra agent all along and none of anything you knew about Captain America ever happened.

To add to the confusion of his discarded origin, DC also decided to fuck up even more and give him a CONFUSING origin. nu52 was a masterpiece of bad writing and stupidity. Suddenly long time fans didn't know if Drake was his real name, if he was adopted, by Wayne and how he was connected to Batman now, and other just completely random mismanaged facts. They wanted him to be completely different, but not different, but connected to Batman, but not connected to Batman, but responsible for Batman Inc, but not responsible for Batman Inc. Yes, my facts will be wrong with nu52, and I'm a LONG time Tim Drake fan since Cry of the Huntress, Knightfall, Final Night, his friendship in his Ivy league school with Ives and Cassie and Ariana, his car the Red Bird, Contagion, Legacy, the forming of Young Justice with Bart and then Kon, Red Robin, and I didn't know what the fuck happened or what was happening when it WAS happening. nu52 was one of the most pathetic products in comic book history for the Batman universe. I have FAR more respect for the "golly gee wiz" Batman show of the 70's with Adam West than nu52.

They also made his new introduction pants on head retarded. Suddenly he went from someone who over years, development, and experience and who only recently and rapidly turned into a mary sue over time and mishandling, to now innately being just a mary sue like "teh Rey, i'm da greatest jedi ever and don't need no man to train me" from the get go. Imagine all the grief Batman gets for being a prep-god by Batman bias writers. Now imagine all that for Tim but not because of bias, but lazy childish writing.

Stupid fucking outfit. Feathers because… "robin". Go with it even if its stupid.

Most things involving Teen Titans and Tim Drake were just not interesting or fun to read. It was probably more fun to read a fake untrue gossip rag.

Jacob Reed
Jacob Reed

is identity crisis still canon for Tim?

Easton Cox
Easton Cox

I stopped reading after nu52. I don't care about rebirth either. I don't see a reason to follow now and I hear he's now trapped in space incompetent writer prison. At this rate, unless they actually have a plan (doubtful) then Tim's is likely eventually fucked because DC mismanaged the Batfamily property to worse than Joe Schumacher levels and it seems they don't know how to unfuck the situation other than rely on the animated DC universe.

In truth now that I think about it, I think a solution DC should pursue is to merge the Tim and Damian characters as a retcon and long term plan.

Start with Damian Wayne, and his origin story as Bruce's wedlock son, raised by Ra's and Talia and the league. Then give him Tim Drake's personality, skills, adventures and history (going to the academy with Ives and Cassie, Contagion, Legacy, Teen Titans, Young Justice etc), and supporting characters (Raven, Bart, Kon, Cass Sandsmark, Spoiler, etc).

- Damian's great problem has always been the way the writers treat him and make him completely unlike the Al Ghuls behaved. He is always being made into a try hard edgy faggot even though he shines when he is confident, quick thinking/wit in roasting with smart ass remarks, an excellent combatant, and doesn't have to make excuses to hide that he is patrolling as Robin. He just does his thing and it works every fucking time because he may be small, but he has a sword and can fucking kill you if he wanted as that would make it easier for him.

- Tim's problem is essentially having a living father in Jack Drake and stepmother Dana which complicates his Robin gig and massive fucking handicap. DC as a result naturally always ends up looking for an excuse to off Jack Drake and Dana (your image) to eventually make him an orphan so they don't have to deal with keep making excuses for why he hasn't been caught and why he's always able to be Robin. That and Damian makes him a third wheel many times since it is easier to write Robin if he were a trained child assassin and his dad is Batman. Tim Drake however has a fantastic history of his time in the cape, able to interact and socialize with normal kids his age, has fantastic computer hacking skills, very high general intelligence, great detective skills that impress even Bruce, and good stand alone personality that goes great solo (comic bubble monlogues) or functions as a team member for his deduction and tactical skills.

Merging the two characters would eventually make a legitimate Batman replacement in the future if needed as he could take over Wayne Corp and have the name, have the Mansion, have a retired Bruce as the person handling the Batcave work. Right now unless DC gets their shit together, Tim Drake is fucked even though his book used to sell and was a critical success.

Jayden Moore
Jayden Moore

There was nothing fundamentally that bad about the New 52 that wasn't just general DC fuckery that was also present before the New 52 and is also present now.

The continuity thing was really fucking confusing at times beyond normal DC fuckery. You had a multi-versal reboot that was caused by some nebulous entity that we literally never heard of before Flashpoint that was supposed to be a reset for the DC Universe, but with the exceptions of Batman and Green Lantern, whose continuity was supposed to remain mostly in-tact, but severely condensed.

Problem 1: Batman is DC's most frequently crossed-over character. He appears in literally everyone's book at some point or another. Most of these crossovers don't matter, but Batman spends a lot of time with the Justice League and Robins tend to spend their time with the Teen Titans. Through the Batman family you end up with situations where characters who are supposed to not change (even though as explained Tim Drake ended up completely mangled) interact with characters that do get rebooted and you're left wondering if any of that shit was supposed to be implied to have happened.

Problem 2: Green Lantern books just got off of crossovers with literally everyone with Blackest Night and Brightest Day. Essentially the same issue again, but for literally the entire DC Universe.

Then they add more titles to the list of books that didn't totally reboot. It goes to being everything rebooted except Batman, Green Lantern, Superman (at least Death and Return was still canon), Swamp Thing, Jonah Hex, and probably some other shit I can't remember. What's canon, what's not? Fuck if I know. Seems like it's just up to the writer or editorial. No one seems to have given a shit about keeping any of it consistent.

Then, also falling in the category of general DC fuckery, you have the absolute disasters that would befall some of the titles. Everything involving Wildstorm characters ended up fucked up because editorial wanted to rush them to an event. Even though Grifter and Voodoo started out great, they would change creative teams right at the start of their runs and derail, getting cancelled instantly afterwards.

Other books weren't safe from DC fuckery. Static was fucked up right out of the gate because the editor jammed nonsensical bullshit in there to try to jack up sales. Green Arrow spent the first year and a half of the New 52 with its creative team being a revolving door. The entire "dark" and "edge" lines with the exceptions of I, Vampire, Justice League Dark (which was shit, but had "Justice League" in the title, so it sold), Swamp Thing (which would be locked into perpetual cross-overs with…), Animal Man, and Deathstroke (which was mediocre, then it got Liefelded) were pretty much where writers and artists would go to get their books meddled with and cancelled immediately.

It's a shame because DC put out a lot of legitimately good books, but most of them should have just been miniseries. The 8 issues they were guaranteed at first wouldn't be enough for most of them to wrap up satisfactorily and once they got rid of that allowance there was really no point.

Easton Ortiz
Easton Ortiz

Tim is stuck in a hard place, but DC can have their cake and eat it too. In which they want Robin to be with Batman, they want Robin in the titans, they want Nightwing, and obviously they want to give Jason Todd some spotlight. It's kind of odd they tried rewinding time with some characters and tried to push some further. Is Tim relegated to just a Titans support character because of this? not exactly. He is however completely capable of being a Titans lead.

Damian sticks with Batman

Tim leads a Titans incarnation

Simple as that, they're phenomenal as supporting characters for a while.

was supposed to be a reset for the DC Universe, but with the exceptions of Batman

Then why in the world did Jason get a hard reset? Seems kind off that Jason gets special treatment.

Noah Turner
Noah Turner

Jason technically gets TWO resets. In his first New 52 series and this current Rebirth series.

Now with Batman, they mostly kept in the continuity from Batman Incorporated. Barely. Just small pieces of Grant Morrison stuff carried over. This really goes to show how much of a not reboot New 52 really was. And how little the staff really cared. There were so many damn continuity problems alone. It was a mess. Luckily we can just alllll let that slide and put the blame on an omnipotent blue nudist.

John Wilson
John Wilson

Jason Todd got rebooted so he could be female eye candy, and "Dark Batman".

Nathan Bailey
Nathan Bailey

I wanted to see Dick and Damien as a new Nightwing/Flamebird team.

Benjamin Martinez
Benjamin Martinez

I didn't read all of The New 52, just the Justice League and Aquaman series mostly. I did also like the Court of Owls storyline, and besides Faceless Joker, Death of the Family wasn't so bad. Because of that limited selection I ended up liking the New 52 stuff I read, but I know that Convergence was awful and I will NEVER read anything that fell under the DCYou moniker.

Chase Davis
Chase Davis

Chuck Dixon who know how to make a Batman that could properly interact with his allies and subordinates instead of just flipping his shit like others who only knew how to make him edgelord.
Batman that could properly interact with his allies
Chuck Dixon

You clearly haven't read enough Dixon.

Brandon Powell
Brandon Powell

Contagion and Legacy event were solid. Can you provide examples?

Jack Thomas
Jack Thomas

any mage can fuck him up

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