Linux.com in its current state is an abomination

Debian calls it Debian GNU/Linux.

It uses GNU packages so it makes sense. They can call it whatever they want. Doesn't stop a program from using the operating system interface directly without invoking even a single line of GNU code.

Now I know you are just bating.
In computing, a system call is the programmatic way in which a computer program requests a service from the kernel of the operating system it is executed on.

Nobody is calling Linux as GNU Linux. Linus is making a strawman here.

Yes. The kernel is the operating system. Whenever we talk about systems programming, we're talking about using that interface as opposed to a bunch of wrapper programs in shell scripts. GNU provides the latter, and it's been failing to provide an actual operating system (which is actual tough work) for decades now. They're so mad about it they keep trying to redefine things based on POSIX definitions of an opersting system nobody really cares about. It's POSIX that defines an OS as "having a shell and utilities like cp and ls", nobody else cares.

You're wrong. GNU has had a working kernel program since 2001. GNU has had an operating system since 1983 when GNU was born.

What, Hurd? My sides.

Yeah, it's easy to convince yourself you have one when you can just decide what the meaning of an operating system is.

I use Arch because of the AUR, most up to date packages of any distro and speed of pacman, but the community is the absolute fucking worse.

Of course. Stallman has been writing operating systems since the beginning of operating systems!

PS. GNU Hurd is not an OS kernel and has never intended to be an OS kernel.

This entire thread is why Windows is still winning.

because criticizing a website = linuc fail rite?

No one cares arch fag. You are contributing to 1 of the many things that makes the arch community terrible.
You are literally the exact cancer you claim to dislike.

I'm not him but stop being autistic. The guy he quoted said people run Arch to "learn Linux" and he provided a counter-point by saying he uses Arch because of the packages. There's nothing wrong with what he said.

You're just a triggered faggot who feels the need to shitpost every time people mention Arch.

Ridiculous. It is irrelevant to mention that you use arch. Instead it could be stated that the """good""" thing about arch is the aur, but that he agrees that the community is cancer.

...

Have fun implementing all the binutils yourself.

I bet you call Legos (((LEGO® Brand Interlocking Building Toys™))). How far did you shove that stick into the gaping wound you try to call a vagina?

WHOEVER THOUGHT POPUPS WAS A GOOD IDEA WAS A NIGGER
Same with trackers and botnet
Same with retards who think xfce is anything worth existing
Linux confirmed nigger-tier

I actually do. Lego is the name of the brand while toy bricks is the product that they produce.

Linus Torvalds is a piece of shit.

How does it feel to suck corporate cock?

I'm enjoying myself, yeah. It's easier than you think. GNU source code is pure garbage because it has to support 15 million architectures and operating systems nobody cares about. When you start to actually use the Linux operating system, things become so much easier.

Also, there's no law that says Linux functionality must be exposed as some legacy coreutils package. You can just as easily build a graphical environment that uses the system calls directly -- no need to wrap shell scripts like an autist. You can also build a programming language on top of Linux and create your own user space on top of it.

See what I mean about Linux being the operating system? GNU can and will disappear someday while Linux will live on and will continue to power a ridiculous amount of applications.

Please. Linux needs no donations, it's the most successful open source project ever created. It's the FSF and it's pollitically charged projects that are dead outisde the GNU bubble precisely because they alienated everyone.

I'm not the one conflating a company to an everyday item. I don't call facial tissues as "Kleenex" and I don't call photocopy machines as "Xerox".

If you're not causing a trademark to become genericized, you're not using language correctly.

Linux, the kernel, is not an operating system, but rather a kernel. If you were to run Linux, the kernel, as an operating system you will be greeted by:

You can pass literally ANY program in place of the init system, including bash. Just because most programs don't know how to mount procfs/sysfs and spawn some services doesn''t mean they can't be programmed to.

That's right. It is also the case that in actual practice, when people use the Linux kernel program, they pair it with the GNU OS or the Android OS. If your system doesn't rely upon GNU to operate, then your system is not GNU/Linux system. This is actually the point: the GNU/Linux name is only intended for systems that rely on Linux and GNU as the fundamental system.

No, you are.

That's quite literally what Linux does.

Linux does that but it is incomplete as an operating system so it isn't an operating system by itself.

The point is Linux is the operating system while the GNU shit is just a bunch of utilities that make it look like Unix. It's useful because people are used to Unix. Obviously if people make a completely new user space it will cease to be Linux + GNU and become Linux + whatever. Therefore, Linux is the operating system while GNU is the user space libraries and shell utilities provided by a Linux distribution. Calling GNU an OS with Linux as its kernel is not just wrong, it's retarded.

How hard is this to accept?

Linux is one of the most complete operating systems in existence. It quite literally does anything and everything you can possibly want.

The point is Linux is the kernel program and one part of the operating system while GNU is the operating system which is made up of a bunch of utilities to make it look like Unix. Therefore Linux is a kernel program which is not an operating system by itself.

Kill yourself.

See this proves my point that Linux, the kernel, is not an operating system, but merely just a kernel.

but for it to be considered an operating system it must also expose functionality to the user for operating the system itself.

=It literally says the services are provided for programs you dense retard. The user can choose whatever programs he wants.=

What is the Unix operating system?

Provided for programs, but not the user. If you add a program to be able to operate your computer, it becomes part of your operating system.

Just because POSIX says kernel isn't an OS doesn't mean it's true. Learn computer science.

not an argument

Kill yourself brainlet.

Says the person with the inaccurate definition of what an operating system is.

This thread is proof of why we need plan 9.

Install a pure kernel on hardware and tell me how using that as your daily driver works out for you.

Literally no academic will call a kernel an operating system. They MAY call it a piece of an operating system though.

I easily can. Alpine Linux uses Busybox, or use OpenBSD.

...

I fell for the meme once too

t. brainlet

wiki.osdev.org/Linux

So when are you going to kill yourself?

A lot of embedded devices use extremely minimal Linux installations.

lol get a vm ya pleb

yolinux.com is dope amirite

A kernel is part of an operating system. I can guarantee the osdev wiki is not calling Linux an entire operating system in itself.

No embedded device uses the Linux kernel by itself, they'll have busybox or some minimal operating system

Obviously he meant GNU/Linux. You're the one making a strawman here.

Since when is xfce not lightweight?

This is pathetic.

Sure, but then it's not GNU. Also, whatever application they wrote could have performed the system calls itself. It has access to the full OS functionality.

It's different when your OS is tightly coupled with user space programs. Windows for example doesn't really work without its GUI stuff; there's UAC code coupled to the kernel; the NT interface is private and unstable and even changes between releases.

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Go back to sucking that corporate cock you illiterate retard.
Linux Kernel Development, by Robert Love - a very decent 'overview' book of the Linux kernel. It doesn't go into too much detail, but provides enough of a big picture and detail view to really get started on a Linux kernel project. Understanding the Linux Kernel, David Bovet - more detailed than Linux Kernel Development. If you want to do more work than browsing the kernel, this has more of the detail required.
These are their references.

Also nice strawman, nobody claims that there are no operating systems that use Linux for the kernel program that are not a GNU operating system. The most popular one being the Android OS, it is noteworthy that all GNU copyleft components where removed in order to allow for a proprietary userspace that spies on the user and denies him control of his computing.

For which they used BSD licenses of course, so they can use cuck's software in their proprietary products. Allowing proprietary forks is the sole purpose of permissive licenses.

...

Yeah, you're starting to understand.

Contrary to what you faggots believe, the 'operating' in operating system doesn't refer to you, it refers to the software. It's the operating system that operates the machine, not you. You just talk to it and ask it to do the shit.

That's exactly what Linux does, and all GNU, busybox or whatever userspace android uses does: talk to the operating system to get it to do things.

Don't turn this into a license war, retards.

A kernel is one piece of an operating system. Not the operating system. Look at almost literally anything and it will say this.

You can sell GPL software. You just can't violate your freedoms.

You are confused. You are thinking about what a kernel is. An operating system pairs a kernel with user facing software for him to operate his computer.

Good luck making any money off of it when its freely copy-able with no repercussions. Very cucked vs selling proprietary.

agreed dunno wtf that guy is talking about

So is any over computer application. If people really want something they can download it from someone else. Just in that case, they don't have the source nor the freedoms.

The difference is one is illegal

If you have access to the source DRM is useless. Proprietary code can have DRM.

DAADs are going to make the AUR less of a selling point in the near future. It'll be interesting to see if Arch will be able to stand on its own after that.

Explain yourself. How is that relevant to anything.

DAAD = "Distro Agnostic Application Distribution"

Basically, AppImage, Flatpak and/or Snap are going to end up making a distro agnostic AUR at some point.

A DAUR?

DOA tbh

If you mean the Krita flatpak, it has the same themes packed into it as the AppImage. It just defaults to the lighter one for some reason.

Cool does it work with musl? Alternatively does it require glibc. If it does it isn't 'distro' agnostic.

Does the AUR work with musl?

How many distros use musl though? As long as it's not tied to any Gnome or Canonical shit, that's good enough for me.

My favourite one. Along with void, Alpine, gentoo(optionally).

You tell me. I haven't used arch in ages but from what I remember the aur was horribly insecure.

So, boutique distros then. Should these things also support alternative kernels/userlands? Would you not be happy until they ran on the BSDs too?

Shouldn't suprise me considering they are solving a problem that was solved with static linking before some retards (ulrich drepper being one of them) decided that static linking is wrong.

Nigger, you're the one who decided to ditch the GNU in GNU/Linux. As long as these thing run on most 'standard' GNU+Kernel OSes, they live up to the name.

Society is the one conflating company names with the product, faggot. The only people who legitimately object to brand names being turned into the generic name for the items are trademark lawyers and corporate cucks like you.

So how is that going to work on all distros if half of them use different formats for their binaries? Are you just going to have to hope someone makes a compatibility package for your distro?

It's not going to work at all. The only reason distributions exist is to provide binary compatibility with packages. It boggles the mind how people think they can solve problems such as the presence or abscence of versioned symbols with a file format.

When I sell my GPL software, I always sell it for a profit. If it costs me $20000 to develop my software, then I will not sell it for anything less than $20000.

Thoughts on this?

ftp.funet.fi/pub/linux/historical/kernel/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01>

What about ditching the systemd in systemd/gnu.

I fucking hate anything GNU. Fuck you all calling it GNU/Linux.

The only DAAD with systemd as a dependency is Snap, ironically. Flatpak and AppImage don't need it.

glibc is the only GNU package I have a problem with. They break shit constantly in it.

These things already make life easier for sticking to LTS releases.

And then you get mad because they ask for equal credit - while Linux and Open Source activly destroy, lobby, shill blobbed "open source aka look but don't touch" software companies and divide the community.

Just sad.

Look at this:
linux.com/what-is-linux
Pic related. And then they shill crap like skype and ask people not to use the gpl
fossforce.com/2017/04/lin-desktop-linux-gpl-openness/

Why would Linux backstab like that? Look at the members:
techcrunch.com/2016/11/16/microsoft-joins-the-linux-foundation
open.microsoft.com/2017/09/26/microsoft-joins-open-source-initiative

And have some final words from Linus Torvalds.

Think again for which team you play and why you would exclude and hate people who fight for you, just because you're triggered by an interjection.

Come on, really?

Even then he still knew it was an operating system:

He also states the obvious:

The lernel will operate the machine and provide its functionality to you via system calls and other interfaces. Without a program to use that interface, it will just idle.

Even the part you quoted admits the posssibility that you may not actually run GNU on top of Linux, it just happens to be the most popular. He said "to get a working system" not "to get an operating system".

The fact is your system is made out of lots of software because it's a convenient design, but if you were to make a huge monolithic binary that ran as PID 1 and cloned itself for concurrency it'd also work because Linux is an operating system that supports whatever's thrown on top of it.

Nah, Linus is right. If RMS had gotten his way, companies would not have shpported Linux and it would have become a second Hurd. It's a good thing Linus isn't an autist like RMS.

lwn.net/Articles/421680/

No one will buy it when they could just get the source from someone else legally. Its a shit business model.

>linux.com/what-is-linux
that was a pain to read through

Not really. As the Linux kernel is GPL licensed it has no business having proprietary licensed software blobs in its "source" tree. But given the hatred for the GPL of the corporations seizing control over the kernel this is not likely to change. At least Debian removes these nonfree binaries from the linux kernel.

Why do you have to sell something you created once more than once? You are just rent-seeking parasite that wants to be paid for all eternity for doing nothing. But being a rent extractor is indeed a great "business model".

Explain that part of your bullshit license story.

The only way to "own" an idea is to keep it secret and hope no one else comes up with it.
You are free to keep your copy to yourself, but if you give a copy to a user that user is free to do with his copy what he desires, which includes sharing it with others (or not - HIS choice). You are trying to control what others do with their property, but I guess it's okay when developers/corporations do it.

Blatant lie.

The main tree doesn't have firmware binary blobs.

In your dreams B$D cuckboy. Corporate paid for laws that are harmful to society at large do not change this. Copying digital "goods" costs practically nothing. Artificial scarcity should be fought with all means.

The ramblings of a markov bot.

The problem is, software is easily and quickly duplicated with little cost. You kind of need to have legal restrictions on copying it if you want to make money on selling it. It's not like food or other physical goods where they actually have to be shipped and the value is in the physical item.

...

???
This is a great thing. If this was true for other goods nobody would have to lack anything.
The value lies in developing it, for which in practice 99% of developers get paid. It is mostly third party middlemen that extract an arbitrary amount of rent - I mean "licensing fees - for contributing nothing.

Did you fucking read my post?
I said selling software as a business model is not viable unless you can legally restrict it's duplication. It's not a problem as in it being bad you can do so, but a obstacle for those wishing to make money off software sales.

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He's just a GNUtard who thinks having messages like "kernel module failed: [proprietary firmware blob] not found" is inducing people to use non-free software. Ignore him.

Is so, what does Debian, Linux-libre remove from mainline Linux?

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You think malware actually makes money? lololololo. Only the 99.9th percentile makes anything.

His point was that the four freedoms are an FSF philosophy, not a Linux philosophy. Quite aside from the Linux vs GNU/Linux nomenclature debate (personally, I don't call Debian "GNU/Linux" the same way I don't call Android "Busybox/Linux"), it shows that he doesn't understand the relationship between Linux, GNU, and the FSF.

Well, Linux hackers have always had their own philosophy. Despite the use of the GPLv2, it's quite different to the lunatic ramblings of the FSF. Linus is not autistic like RMS, to begin with. He's open to literally anyone participating as long as they give him their source code back.

They removed error messages that said "firmware file not found" because they felt it was inducing people to use non-free software. They also wanted to delete those messages from git history. They are that autistic.

Windows is still winning because despite the big improvements to the various Linux distros over the last decade its still not as normie friendly nor works as smoothly as Windows. Also many developers are still too lazy to bother with Linux support.

This is all that ever mattered.

...

Yea, but for some reason its never a priority to fix the more glaring issues from the perspective of normies. Until normies can watch porn in 4K on Linux without screen tearing and everything being annoyingly small because most DEs aren't 4K ready they will stick to Windows.

I was just correcting you as they removed them last September.

Yes, exactly. And to clarify my previous post (>>878860), "His" refers to the earlier poster (>>877801), and "he" refers to the subject of the post (presumably Zemlin). Sorry about that.

GNU is wrong because their code iis often bloated as they care about their political cause then the means to achieve it

Linux is bloated because it is an attempt to make a User-Friendly FLOSS kernel while abandoning the UNIX philosophy. (Also due to being the first to adopt the "Bazzar" model, on accident.)

TL;DR You both suck in unique ways, but have some respect in what you're doing.

Its also bloated because its riddled with god awful object-orientated C because Linus is too autistic to let C++ into mainline.

There are both good and bad examples of both the Bazaar and Cathedral style of open source software, GCC is a prime example of a fucking awful Cathedral style FOSS program.

Considering the key people in the GNU community this should be of little surprise to anyone.

Nobody cares.

It's winning because it's got the applications people want to run.

I can sympathize with Linus here. C++ can obfuscate what's actually happening.
With C, you know what's happening.

Noboy cares because people have been conditioned not to care, just like they've been conditioned to think that having a mininimum age to buy a simple lighter is normal.

I have come across numerous XXX comments in the Linux kernel asking if sections of code are correct because of how unreadable the OO C code is.

Plebs who use the features of C++ as a crutch shit out code like this, not people who actually know what they are doing.

Unix philosophy doesn't make any sense that's why nobody cares.
The short version is dumb. First two ideas are
I guess you have to have a very high IQ to understand that. And the third is assuming text is a universal program interface for some unknown reason.

The original is little better.
aka. we need a program to read a file forward and one to read it backwards... otherwise bloat
Like bottom up design without the stultifying up part. They're keeping their options open.
Fail early fail often. The perma-alpha style of development. Gotta wonder what the hell they are throwing away considering they purposefully have no features.
oh they are throwing away the tools. yeah that makes sense.

We've debated this on kill unix thread.

Surly /g/ is in here.

The most popular Linux Distro is more popular than Windows. It's Android/Linux, or as I have come to calling it Android+Linux.
Strange that no one has a problem with calling this just Android though. Probably corporate bootlickers that fell for the OSI/LF marketing campaign.

Can someone people explain to me what the fuck is going on at GNOME? I just saw their income and expenditures and i am scared.

They were spending a shitload of money on things like womens outreach programs instead of fixing their bloated, buggy, dumpster fire of a DE. Add to that they have been acting like the linux world revolves around their project, claiming to be the offical linux DE, and are shit at collaborating with anyone outside of redhat. These factors combined to drive off donnors.

Red Hat and Poettering, fuck Gnome. Hard to believe, but you act like a pompous asshole, embrace "diversity", shit on white males, and force bullshit like systemd down everyone's throats, and money stops coming in. Who would have saw that coming?!

how is xfce not lightweight???

(((Zemlin)))

It probably runs on an overclocked Arduino emulating x86 with a class 4 SD card to swap RAM.

Can you guys clue me in what happened? It seems like they were getting money SPECIFICALLY for OPW so it doesn't look SO BAD, and didn't GNOME had legal issues where they needed donations back in 2015 which explains the donations surge and then retreat?
The lowering advisory board income is what seems most worrying, i've tried looking up stuff related to it but i can't find anything.
Also, wasn't one of the wymyn responsible for "almost bleeding GNOME dr"y kicked from the advisory board in 2014?

This is specially frustrating to me because the GNOME DE, regardless of how ugly some may find, and bloated it is, it is the only one that my pleb normie sensibilities let me to feel comfy with.

Just fuck my shit up.

Sorry can you explain this analogy? Is it like the "I fucking love science" crowd?

KDE has been making large strides in stability, reducing memory usage and working with the rest of the linux ecosystem to keep a sane system.

KDE should be your normie desktop.

They blew something like 600k on women outreach programs that failed to produce one programmer, I am going to guess that didn't help.

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The name of the operating system is Android, so you call it Android. It's not Android + Linux because Linux is already a part of Android.

What's LWN
no bully

You are right user, i have tried using it for a while but i couldn't tweak it well enough. I hope to use it in the future.

This is really telling and hilarious.

This is very depressing.

lwn.net/

The numbers would look a lot more reasonable if GNOME included the value of the vast amount of developer time spent on the project.

People say that Gnome lost a lot of money spending on the outreach program for women. This is a lie. The truth is that Gnome is actually the administrator of the program involving many kinds of organizations.What happened is that Gnome suffered from cashflow problems as the administrator of the OPW. The fix to this is to segregate the account for OPW to the Gnome account rather than to keep them on the same balance sheets. Gnome actually spent a couple of thousand out of their own money, not the hundreds of thousands shown on their sheet.

It's not wrong to call it Linux+Android. There's nothing wrong with increasing clarity with explicit language.

Yes it is. You could say though "Android, a Linux based operating system". When you say Linux + Android you are implying that Linux is not a component of Android.

It is completely feasible to modify Android so that it is based on a non-Linux OS kernel. Google is in the process developing a new kernel program for Android that isn't based on Linux.

Linux Weekly News. They write and publish ridiculously detailed articles on anything that has to do with Linux. It's not your typical omgubuntu luser stuff, these are knowledgeable people that track the lkml and other notable mailing lists and report on the stuff that's happening there. It's a treasure trove, well worth the subscription fee. Browsing the per-topic archive and reading those articles will give you a detailed understanding of linux and its history, and I don't mean that in an autistic arch linux way. These people have been describing in excruciating detail the evolution of the kernel and all its features for decades now. You can see recent news posts and track the links all the way back to the genesis of the feature, or browse the archive and see everything they have ever written about, say, device drivers.

It's like some kind of 3rd party high level commit logging service.

Since the operating is called just Android it doesn't matter what kernel the operating system makers choose for it to use. The difference is that Android is composed of different components.

Yeah, since Android provides all the essential services to applications, it definitely is an operating system on its own right even though it's sitting on top of Linux. It's just like the JVM, which is a complete platform for Java bytecode execution: in theory it doesn't matter what's underneath because programs are fully virtualized.

In practice, though... A LOT of applications ship with native ARM code and they very much do depend on Linux and its operating system features.

I'm not denying that Linux is an integral part to what is Android. We seem to agree on that point.

lwn.net/Articles/747919/
Shilling for proprietary SaaSS is true quality journalism.

Damn, if that's a shill article then it's a pretty good one.

Holy shit, it's even GPLv3. Didn't know this was possible for games. I guess it's the SaaS model that enabled it.

I don't think this article depicts LWN's strong points, though. It's not even about Linux. I hadn't even read it until you posted because of its sorta off-topic nature. I guess it's good to see them giving exposure to other open source software but I go there for the kernel articles.

Have you read the EULA and privacy policy?

Sorry you need 200iq to understand these jokes youtube.com/watch?v=szzVlQ653as youtube.com/watch?v=K91imfIWMV4

No. It's probably garbage like 99% of all EULAs out there. Who cares, though? It's free software. You can run your own version if you want.

Fucking hell I wish I could remember the password to delete this thread. It's turned into an absolute shithole, typical of Holla Forums

Your problem was solved child. We'll talk about whatever we want.

This. As someone who uses the three OSes regularly, it's actually kind of absurd how clunky and inconsistent Linux still is compared to even Windows. Not to mention macOS.

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Linux is not an operating system, nor does it have a standard userspace

kill yourself gnutard

A kernel is a part of an operating system. I for example run BSD+Linux.

He seems pretty handsome to me, why is his wife so strange looking?

If Linux is the operating system, then nothing that isn't Linux isn't the operating system. Linux cannot be clunky nor consistent because there is no Linux user space!