The lumpenproletariat are just the poorest of the petit bourgeois, right?

The lumpen is basically Marx's "the Big Other", next to the capitalists.

It`s just some middle-class larpers shitposting, don`t take them seriously comrade. Everyone who comes form the actual proletarian class should not be directly opposed to drug dealers( rather I find it amusing that most of those posters don`t have such contacts in their life, it only shows how shallow they are towards the poor).

Depends what drugs to be honest. But there is a pretty decent chance you are scum. If you get your weed from some cartel or taliban or the CIA, then you're kind of a pice of shit. If you sell harder drugs I recommend you kys.

A quick google tells that lumpen is are people who are scum, but because they are alienated from socially useful production.

Tell me, how is this concept even relevant to the modern american common people? How can you even judge such a thing? My sister works at wendy's, how is her providing aterety clogging food socially useful but me providing weed or molly not? Isn't my friend who works in a fucking yankee candle lumpen since what she is is not socially useful at all?

It seems like a divisive and useless classification to me, and probably only alienates people more

why are you so hostile? It seems you have some latent hatred for people you think are lower class

your sister has a relation to the means of production, and she is the political class that can change her rrlaton to the means of production, nobody else.

you selling crack however, holds no relation to the MoP.

I'm poor as fuck and have seen what drug addiction does to a person, I've buried comrades. What I have not seen are drug dealers making a positive contribution to anyone but themselves.
There might not be any ethnical consumption under capitalism, but when your money goes to violent gangs preying on the weakest in society, well that's worse than working for Wendy's a lot worse.
If you know where your weed comes from, then fine, but if that weed could come from slave labor or puts money in the pocket of some guy who kills radical student in Mexico, is that okey? *No*

my t-shirt, shoes, and laptop all come from slave labor and give money to capitalists. You said it yourself, literally no ethical consumption under capitalism. And in regards to "positive contributions to society"(lmao) I've made many, many people's lives livable by selling weed.

tbh all I'm hearing is moralizing and anecdotes

Yes, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but that's not to say all consumption is equally unethical. Try not buying your t-shirts from slave labor next time. Maybe even buy union made.
If you think selling weed is what a positive contribution to your community looks like, then you are probably better of joining the libertarians.

It's a more positive contribution than selling burgers. Which are my choices in life at the moment. Maybe I should scrape by at like 7 bucks an hour. Nah.

If buying goods from evil despots makes one scum, then every poster here is scum and so are 99% of humans on the planet.

I mean, I don't necessarily disagree - I just want you to be aware of what you're claiming.

FTFY

See

If avoidable then it should be avoided. It might sound like moralization, but some businesses are dirtier than others and should be treated extra carefully. If you buy Bob's home-grown weed, then your probably not supporting the murder of civilians. If you buy from someone affiliated with cartels, then you could easily be paying for the gun that kills someone who stood up against corruption. Exploitation is unavoidable, but we can do our best to not put money in the hands of our deadliest enemies.

Nothing wrong with that statement. Positive contributions are largely made outside capital transactions. Joining an political organization, voluntarily work, something that doesn't involve you appropriating surplus value.

If you buy from walmart you're literally supporting the murder of civilians. You're an idiot if you think otherwise. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that most drug dealers probably have at least as ethical business practices as any of the companies you regularly do business with. I'm sick of people here trying to use leftism as a front for their own authoritarian agenda.

Buy most of my shit from coops, but even if I didn't, that would be a pretty weak argument. Drug business isdirty as fuck. I dare you to find a similar pic from Walmart or Microsoft or who you think I do business with. The horrors of drug cartels are well documented and easily available. I'm not an authoritarian for not approving of drug cartels you fuckin idiot.

me on the left

Surely selling crack means he would have a relation to the means of crack production?
Unless you would argue that shop owners are also lumpenproletariat…

I'm glad you got better.

You think the chinese sweatshops manufacturing your products have never killed anyone? Cute.

Here's are a couple of examples from 30 seconds of googling:
killercoke.org/
commondreams.org/news/2016/06/03/families-death-squad-victims-allowed-sue-chiquita-executives

No, I don't. That's one of the reason I suggest buying union made products. You can't 100% avoid exploitation, but you can try to minimize it.

Good job. And now, what is your honest opinion on how these companies should be treated?
To be avoided, to be boycotted, attacked, or as you seem to suggest, ignored?
Make no mistake, drug trade is much more destructive than these companies.
ISIS owns the hashish route to Europa, using the founds to fight the socialists in Syria.
Taliban is founded by opium trade, targeting young girls that dare to hope for an education or just to not wear a burka.
The Mexican drug war has killed tens of thousands of people, including about a hundred journalists.

There can be no ethical consumption under capitalism. This is true, but it is not a cause to fall in to moral relativism, it is not the same as saying all consumption is equally unethical under capitalism.
If we aren't ready to take a stand, then things will never change for the better.

Read/watch zizek tbh

It's not that I want you to vote with your dollar, You are voting with your dollar. It alone will never defeat capitalism or create a better future but all actions have consequences, you can spenf your money to strenghten the unions and the coops, or to strengthen drug dealers and porkey.

The tankie is my nigga. I used to sell ex and there's dealers everywhere I've lived. Some were aspiring bourgeoisie pigs, but a lot of them were just guys trying to pay rent and have food. We don't all have the luxury of working at a coop or whatever, some of you need to pull the dicks out your ass.

Are NEETs petit bourgies? I doubt it.

low lumpen scum here. i hate myself for being too much of a scumbag to do anything but bitch on the internet, and too much of a coward to hold down a real job without being run out by thugs and whatnot.

THIS
sheesh the world has nuance. You're not going to save the world with lifestyleism but little changes add up to very real and material support for the most vulnerable proles

I'm the person who posted that. I am not "middle class". I have sold drugs before. The subculture within drug dealing circles is obviously toxic. I would know. Now shut the fuck up.

Also, there's a HUGE difference between selling drugs because you have to, and Hollywood-driven "hustla" culture glorifying it, and then us low income people having our cultures innundated WITH this Hollywood-driven glorification of selling drugs.

Yeah I sold drugs, but I did it because I had to, at no point did I glorify my own profession or see myself deserving of "respect" for living "the hood life" or some bullshit.

That's what I referred to as "upper lumpen" culture.

And honestly, if people on the internet keep doubting me while I'm pouring my heart out, I'll probably just become a mass killer one day because I've posted here before and I'm getting really god damn sick and tired of getting talked to like a SPOILED LITTLE BITCH just because I have disagreements with lumpen culture.

I've been treated like shit my entire life and I'm one step away from going Columbine. I'm serious. I'm sick of this fucking bullshit. Everybody else gets acceptance but me.

If I talk some shit about lumpen culture its because I get treated like shit BY MY OWN KIND but they're still my own kind and I am not "middle class".

You're not scum.

I'm the guy who's being accused of being "middle class" for critisizing lumpen culture. I literally want to kill myself as I type this because I've been talked to like a SPOILED LITTLE BITCH my entire life because I'm sick and tired of gangstas and thugs having their way with NORMAL lumpens.

Its not the fact that they sell drugs that bothers me. Its the way they TREAT people who AREN'T pimped out gangstas/drug dealers, but who are none the less, lumpens.

Like me. I'm a lumpen. You're a lumpen. Don't let these morons tell you you're not lumpen because you don't worship drug dealers or gangbangers.

I have the same experience. Since I don't fit into "thug" culture, even the guys who work at McDonalds or Walmart make my life HELL when I try working with them.

They give me a certain level of disrespect that they don't normally give to each other. We should talk with each other and we can set something up to make life easier for lumpens like ourselves.

Notice how they all shut the fuck up once I put them in their place. Maybe life is worth living.

If you're honestly this thin skinned maybe you should kill yourself faggot.

I've never worked at a "coop" you piece of shit. I'm more lumpen than you are, I've been homeless quite a few times…also I'm fucking autistic so I stand our like a sore thumb when I'm out on the streets trying to sell drugs…but for some reason YOUR struggle gets glorified and mine doesn't. That's bullshit.

Maybe drug dealers (other than myself, since I HAVE sold drugs a few times), are thin skinned/can't take cultural critisism, and should kill themselves.

If they start crying about it on the internet and say shit like "I literally want to kill myself as I type this" then they probably should.

Also, I consider you "middle lumpen", comrade. "Lower lumpens" only care about handing out Jesus pamphlets and smoking meth.

(You can be a drug addict and be a revolutionary, but def. not recommended)

Does THAT sound like I'm some spoiled upper middle class type? Because I just said that.

OK tough guy what is your advice for me other than "Kill urself"? What do I do when I'm a lumpen, other lumpens refuse community with me (Thus, I am shunned from my own culture)…

What is the revolutionary thing to do, in my circumstance? I need SOMEWHERE to fit in to life. Other lumpens have that…I don't. I'm told to "respect" drug dealers/gang members because they "live the struggle".

How am I not "living the struggle"? I've been jumped, I've been harassed by cops, I've sold drugs, what gives?

When do I get to critisize my OWN culture that treats me like shit irl without being accused of being "middle class"?

Again, no comments from the peanut gallery. So just shut the fuck up.

Why are you asking me faggot? I'm a prole who works 40+ hours a week and wallows in misery in my own little corner of the world. I don't know anything about you or your situation other than you whine on an image board about not fitting in. What sort of enlightenment to your situation are you expecting from a commisar cletus whose own life is a mess?

I've NEVER looked down on someone for selling drugs. But the "hustla" culture that dominates the inner city is DEFINITELY one which looks down on poorer lumpens (like myself) in favor of "upper lumpens" (successful drug dealers).

I don't see how stating that is wrong in ANY way. You're all just a bunch of morons.

Stay in touch with me man. I NEED to talk with you sometime. I hope you come back. I don't know anybody I can relate to and you sound exactly like me. I'm losing my sanity here. I can't do anything revolutionary when I'm getting shit on by my own people (other lumpens) who I would otherwise be defending because I don't fit in to the swagfag culture of my neighborhood.

Damn this thread is hostile as fuck. You guys seem really impassioned about this

My people are not alone. Thank you for adding.

And if I off myself, trust me, it won't be because of a few losers on leftypol saying mean things to me LOL. Even if you fuckers are the straw that breaks the camels back, there were other straws.

Not sure if you'd consider yourself "lumpen". I do but I'm considering changing my label. We need to stick together, find others, etc. Low income people need to make our neighborhoods OURS and not allow Hollywood or middle class anarkiddies decide who's "street" and who isn't based on weather or not we fit into their "gangsta" stereotype of what "real" low income people should be.

I'm the big shitposter on this thread.

And I hope you know…I have nothing against comrades in gangs or comrades who sell drugs. Its the culture that tells you you HAVE to do those things to get "respect" from lumpen culture. That's what I'm opposed to.

And I"m opposed to Cop-lovers and Christian conservatives acting as if THEIR values are the only substitute for the values of gang culture. You can be against the police and capitalism and ALSO be against gang culture, without necessarily hating all gang members.

Like I said I've sold drugs. Drug dealing culture is aristocratic (Against poorer, non-drug-dealing lumpens as well as addicts), and yeah, there's problems here.

And when I say "gang culture" i mean MAINSTREAM gang culture. Revolutionary gang cultures can and do exist, even in small amounts, even if they don't see themselves as "revolutionaries".

A LOT of gang members are actually revolutionaries, especially in newer gangs (before they get corrupted by apathetic drug dealers who don't GAF about their community…again, not all drug dealers).

Am I still sounding like a pretentious middle class snob? I don't think I am. Its other lumpens who look down on ME because I don't have "swag". I'm not the one looking down on them, I'm defending myself as well as all aspies by speaking against this culture.

I don't want to be "hostile" I just want a place in the revolution.

Thank you for being mature and making an honest statement. Yes, it is getting hostile in here. I can tell from your statement that you are considering what I have said as well as those who are in opposition to me. It means a lot.

Leftypol is actually helping my mental stability because this is the first time in my life I've ever had a chance to speak with other leftists who aren't SJWs.

I remember you user you've talked about this before. About the necessity of building a revolutionary culture in the lower class. I want to know a little bit about yourself.

It's a division that exists though. Lumpens don't go to work like proles do, if they work at all. Their work serves at best themselves and at worst organized crime. Cartel heads and mafiosi are basically porkies because they often utilize legitimate businesses as fronts. But instead of their workers being tax-paying proles they're lumpens paid under the table to do things like act as drug mules, smugglers, hustlers, enforcers etc. Their labor is, wait for it – not socially necessary. It's not how the majority of the worlds' population makes a living and produces things to keep society going.

What do have lumpens have in common with workers? Very little, hence why Marx and Engels warned against trusting or using lumpens as support during a revolutionary upheaval. Probably going to happen regardless of what they think, but whatever. Non gang/cartel/mafia-affiliated lumpens are probably okay, but how are you going to distinguish them from people engaged with organized crime? How many of them are there? We don't know these things. There's no time to vet people during a fucking revolution. Chances are lumpens are just going to be rioting, looting and burning shit while proles occupy businesses and the halls of power, so there's one way to tell.

Anyway, a Marxist analysis of the underworld is long overdue. We really need a proper materialist view to help us plan how to engage with the lumpens, or not.

Dunno, I don't think autists like me have a whole lot to contribute (formally diagnosed and all, life has been a living hell because of it, took me until mid-late 20s to start having anything like a life).

re: rest of thread - AFAIK drug culture is basically a part of the capitalist system, quasi-legal for those with means and an excuse to wage class war. also, porky is taking their cut of the action. i just get sick of drug culture being forgiven by mainstream society while i am condemned and humiliated for not being a part of the corruption, but by this point i don't think drug culture or dealers are lumpen by definition, since dealers exist in the working and middle-upper classes. it's basically a socially-accepted institution by now, and it's part of what keeps the class system in place.

i'm not really into marxian socialism yet so dunno about the whole marxist analysis of the present situation. my best guess is that we're fucked and past the point of no return.

OK I will tell about myself. Well, here's a tiny little snippet of my life.

I was jumped at age 14 and told I needed to "respect" the gangbangers who jumped me because "what they did to you was fucked up, but they protect this neighborhood so you still gotta respect them". And that's just ONE TINY EXAMPLE of what I call "thug privlege".

I never had many friends, or any at all…if any of these internet fuckers could see my life irl they would have a lot of respect for me just for surviving.

I've been jumped 6 times while staring straight ahead minding my own business. Yet I still get talked to like a middle class pussy and it makes me want to fucking kill people because I am literally the ONLY PERSON who has this problem.

They are morons. They can't critically analyze anything and let their own prejudices color so much of how they internalize their political ideology.

So many on leftypol can't get along with SJWs and other IDpol groups not because they're so different but because they're so much alike

It's really complicated because, as you say, dealing cuts across class lines. And it's a matter of record that porky big wigs like HSBC are involved in the drug trade through laundering at the very least.

It's absolutely a feature of capitalism because it's another way to expand capital and produce revenue. It's quasi-legal and illegal nature also serves class interests because there are huge industries revolving around prosecuting the drug war as well as circumventing the law. It's a virtuous circle where one subset of capitalist feeds off and competes with another. Lumpens and proles in this instance are just meat for the grinder. Clerks in HSBC facilitate the laundering of drug money while lumpens smuggle drugs. All part of the same chain.

THIS

I think the excuses and romantazation so many proles have for criminals come from a deep seated desire to be porky themselves

My heart goes out to you comrade. Don't compare yourself to others and don't let anyone tell that you haven't achieved a lot by sustaining your place in life and living a mostly ethical life despite all your disadvantages.

You really are better than the criminal sociopaths that throw proles under the bus everyday to get capital

I've decided I'm the official "lumpen cultural reformist" speicalist of leftypol.

I will dedicate my entire political career to answer this question.

How? Selling alcohol is socially necessary but selling weed is not? Porn is socially necessary but prostitution is not?

Again, it seems like you're applying Marxist theory willy nilly and not bothering to critique it.

Lumpens as a class is growing due to technological unemployment and outsourcing and all that shit and people are forced to work in the black market instead of the normal one.

You know, where I live is SIXTY PERCENT youth unemployment. I mean, think of what you're doing here. You're regarding a large and growing class of people as counter revolutionary just because they don't fit your paradigm of the gritty class conscious worker.

Also I agree with you about gangbanging culture being harmful so don't sperg out at me on that

Thank you. Your comment helps me to not go outside and mug random people. I feel like being just like them is the only way to show the world that I go through the same struggles they do, that I'm *not* some pussified middle class outsider.

But your comment lets me know there's hope, and maybe I can help others out some day, which is what I live for. Maybe I can meet others in my position and help them, and us, get somewhere.

I think there's a difference between someone that would take employment if it was available and someone that has embraced getting capital by criminal means with no intention of returning to the workforce

I really like Ralph Naders radio program. It gave me a lot of hope because he talks about concrete ways to make a dent in capitalism's exploitation. And he's had a ton of successes.

I just got his book civics for democracy which is like a handbook for political activism. I'm not going to just sit around. I may not be able to bring about the revolution but maybe I can make sure there isn't lead in drinking water of my comrades

Obviously. But lumpenproletariat as Marx describes them includes anyone alienated from the traditional means of production. And that means sixty percent of the youth hear are automatically lumpen

Now, if you want to redefine lumpen to mean a "black market capitalist" of sorts, than fine. Just define your terms before because I'm going to assume you're speaking about the lumpen in traditional Marxist theory

Also, i apologize English is not my first language

You're English is very good. I would not have guessed it was not your first language. Your point is well taken btw

Large-scale disassociation of the people from the means of production is the point - workers can't disrupt capitalism in America if everything is moved to China.

Normal people and bourgie yuppies might not know their theory, but the people in charge know exactly what they're doing.

Or people getting by on what government largesse still remains… which in many cases means a disability check, and with that legal restrictions on being able to work legitimately.
Or, people who are just mooching off of family, or the literally homeless who beg and dig through trash for food. Technically if you're homeless you're automatically a criminal under law, but it's clearly an unjust law; nor can you realistically expect someone who is homeless to ever land a job over a landed person. Employers openly favor those who have been outside of the workforce for the least, usually with connected people cycling through jobs while the disconnected are constantly rejected. I've been lied to so many times when looking for a job that it's ridiculous, it's a large reason why I'm leftypol after so long…

You're looking at this the wrong way. Weed is illegal, mostly; selling liquor is not. The latter is used to expand capital and produce revenue, the former is not. The production of pornography as an industry is, similarly, worlds apart from the individual prostitute. It's socially necessary if it is used to expand capital because that is the foundation of the capitalist system. Now, not all labor is productive in that sense, there are many proles engaged in unproductive labor – in industries which do not expand capital directly, but rather support its expansion. Think of banks, which give loans to productive businesses, or merchants who provide a means of selling goods – those utilize unproductive labor, without which the expansion of capital would grind to a halt.

I'm regarding a growing class of people as counter-revolutionary because they don't know what it means to work for a wage. I think most workers are only class conscious in the most basic sense – they hate their jobs and the injuries they suffer from it, but they put up with it because they have to. Workers are divided against themselves in myriad ways, but ultimately there's the potential for unity and collective action. What potential do lumpens posses? I'm genuinely curious.

If the youth in question have never held a job, due to being denied one, and/or have no intention of ever holding a job, then yes, and that's a sad thing indeed. It's a social crisis.

And no, lumpens aren't some kind of black market capitalist – as I argued those capitalists are often such because they utilize legitimate businesses as partners and fronts, so they're not lumpen by virtue of owning private property, even if most of their revenue is from the black market.

What kind of a question is this. I would fight capitalism because my life fucking sucks and I know capitalism caused it. If other lumpens realized this too why the fuck wouldn't be inspired for collective action.

Well we need to do a lot of thinking, with words, than.

Marx (PBUH) didn't live long enough to see how cultures work today.

It seems we might as well be arguing over semantics at this point.

Could we redefine lumpen, or come up with something to describe modern-day classes of people that have been formed?

Same feels here. The only problem I forsee is that in a revolution I'm one of the first thrown against the wall and shot regardless of which side does it. At least with the commies I get to let out some rage, while if I meekly try to live my life the rightists fed a steady diet of Limbaugh and Hannity will kill me because of their feefees.

Most proles and lumpens lives suck and have a general sense it's the system which causes it, but one has the means of doing something about it and the other does not. What unites lumpens? It isn't exploitation in the Marxist sense. Lumpens stand apart from the expansion of capital, the processes and injustice inherent in it. Would their lives improve under socialism? Arguably, if only because they'd finally have a means of supporting themselves legitimately rather than being denied it due to the structural feature of unemployment. But some would insist on attempting to reproduce the black markets which sustained them under capitalism, and they'll be what they are: counter-revolutionaries.

I'm not saying all individual lumpens are counter-revolutionary, just that the class as a whole will be. Bourgs can cross class lines to side with the proles, and lumpens can too – but the majority of either class will see the revolution as a threat, and will join hands to combat it.

You won't necessarily get shot, comrade. Join hands with the proles, seek out workers' councils and parties and I'm sure a place for you will be found during the upheaval. Like I said it'll probably happen regardless, revolutions are messy like that.

I can't believe for all the shit leftypol gives anacps they can't see gangsters are just in real life ancaps

Yeah, a majority of sixty percent of the youth will join hands with homeless people, prostitutes, and the capitalists to fight the awesome revolutionary vanguard

Holy shit man. Try to think logically instead of dogmatically following theory.

And by the time the revolution happens everyone will be out of work and it'll be like 1%.of the population vs everyone else, right?

Who knows under what conditions the revolution will occur. I'm not banking on it, right now I'm working and learning theory. If I'm dogmatic it's because I'm only a beginner, and this is how I reinforce what I've learned.

Maybe the youth will, en masse, side with workers in the streets. I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility. But they're not the lumpenproletariat in its entirety – which is what I was addressing. Also, some will, logically, be lured away by those harder elements you mentioned as well as capitalist promises of a better tomorrow (which never arrives). I think most are lumpen, as mentioned earlier by someone else, by circumstance rather than by choice, and I think most will choose a productive future than one on the margins of society, if its given to them. Only a revolution offers the possibility for something beyond what they already know, but fortunately youth are known for taking leaps their elders won't.

Anyway, i have to go to work. I'll address any further replies later.