I'm Left on virtually everything but immigration. I don't want masses of potentially class-unconscious and nationally spooked people joining the already writhing mass of class-unconscious and nationally spooked in my own country.
Am I a fake Socialist, comrades? De-spook me if necessary.
Internstionalist alternative to open borders:
Immigrants are great for porky. They exploit illegal immigrants 10 times as much as proles of a individual nation. That being said, I'm on the fence about it. I don't really care tbh cuz crapitalism still exists.
It depends on your reasoning, if you oppose it on the basis that it just creates more cheap labor that benefits the capitalist class thats perfectly within leftism even if its not the most popular leftist position on the subject. I don't think racialist opposition to migrants can be leftist though.
meh
OP is clearly the authority on who is and isn't class-conscious. And he clearly lives in a country brimming with people ready to fight for the class war.
The position itself of racialist opposition to immigration may not be leftist, but that doesn't make the person who has that opinion not a leftist. Not that that's my opinion. I just want to point out that a person doesn't have to agree with the Official Leftist Position™ on every issue to be a leftist. Thinking in terms of ideological purity is just going to cause you to ignore potential allies.
The position itself of racialist opposition to immigration may not be leftist, but that doesn't make the person who has that opinion not a leftist. Not that that's my opinion. I just want to point out that a person doesn't have to agree with the Official Leftist Position™ on every issue to be a leftist. Thinking in terms of ideological purity is just going to cause you to ignore potential allies.
There is nothing leftist about open borders. Importing handfull of people into the first world has no impact on the place where they are from, often being negative even since its mostly the better off people leaving (human traffickers are expensive). They drive down wages by taking the jobs that, according to porky "noone wants to do" AKA nobody wants to do them for minimum wage or less. So much for supply and demand. It also increases tension among the working class, dividing them into invaders and natives.
It suppresses the growth of the wage according to the growth of society in favour of money money for porky. It also breaks up unions due to language barriers and such. The absence of immediate decrease is not the absence of negative impact.
The only real argument for mass immigration is
Perhaps, but supporting racialism is pretty reactionary and is idpol which most of this board does dislike, though being opposed to mass migration on a more materialist basis isn't. That being said I am more or less on the fence on the issue as it is a complex topic.
my parents are immigrants here and I agree tbh
I don't know where this puts me, I don't want to get repatriated because of my family's origins but at the same time I don't really /like/ most migrants as we have almost nothing in common (which adds to why I would not like to be repatriated, as I would have nothing in common with those people)
You can agree with something being better even if it not "how you should think". Its not even against your own interests, you already live where you live. Done deeds are done.
see I have this opinion, but part of me also feels like reasonable restrictions to immigration is like the stormfag version of taqiyya, and it's like the overton window towards full-retard deport everyone that isnt muh aryan masterrace policies
Very reasonable fear but choosing a shit option because the other extreme is also shit is a shit idea in itself.
Slippery slope dont real and all that. If you argue for limiting migration for the right reasons you will get a larger support base away from the right wing anyway.
Are you Jewish? I'm only asking because they're pretty much the only group on Earth that can tie anything and everything into part of a slippery slope that ends with gas chambers operated by blue-eyed blonde-haired Nordics
there is nothing that can possibly safe you
except for suicide, maybe
OP here, I appreciate the replies. I would like to add that I oppose immigration, at least unrestricted, from a purely practical and pragmatic and materialist view. If I can't relate to you culturally or speak your language to even at least talk about the basic theories of class struggle then in all honestly you are of no help to me. Even if you're a fellow Socialist, if we can't communicate or there's cultural tension, not to sound like a Stormfag but I'd rather support you in building a working-class foundation in your own country. After all is said and done, sure, come on over, but not before we're ready.
my goodness how brave
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I'm a trot and I think muslims should be demuslimfied before being given a green card, simply because they are backwards barbarians that create conservative fascst ghettos wherever they go
This guy gets it. Multi-national corporations tricked so easily leftists into taking mass immigration as one of their tenets. WHat happened with I don't know, protecting the rights of the native workers against capitalist abuse? 3rd world immigration only undermines worker rights and any leverage worker unions have, while providing unlimited cheap labor to corporations.
Wew it's not like organizing the third worlders is an option or anything
Yeah organize 3rd worlders right in the middle of a 1st world country whose population doesn't even have its own workers' rights protected, it'll go great trust me.
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The problem is that they've managed to somehow merge IdPol with mass immigration, if you advocate border control you're basically also homophobic and racist according to the liberal media.
Immigrants tend to create counter cultures when migration isn't controlled, and those cultures tend to be mostly reactionary and traditionalist. The reason for that is that they perceive Western liberal cultural as massively socially "left" compared to their home culture, so in order to create a proper answer they enforce traditional values on themselves. Turkish migrants are a good example on that: While the first immirants were mostly secular, their children often find their identity within the traditional Islam.
So yeah, mass immigration is shit.
Organize both. It's not a mutually exclusive situation.
Why does such a radical shift in attitude between the first and second generations occur? It seems like they'd have the best of both worlds, the history of their own culture tempered with the one Thierry parents moved into.
It is the only way to expand market socialism with Chinese characteristics beyond peoples republic of China!.
Give me one example that isn't older than 1000 years where an ethnic or a religious minority managed to form the successful foundations of a revolution. Just one.
If you organize Third World migrants, you'll just receive a massive backlash from the host culture and you'll get more Trumps.
Why were the American immigrants of the 19th and 20th century different?
Failed integration m8. Most of them ended up in ghettos and had no access to proper language classes. Usually the younger generation would grow up with a romanticized picture of Turkey, to the point where they would feel alienated from actual Turks in Turkey as well.
Turkish migrants are a prime example of failed capitalist immigration because their only purpose was to fill out the low wage sector after so much men died in WWII.
Radical labor in the US was mostly made up of immigrants and 1st generation Americans. While it never became an all out revolution the underpinning was there.
You serious? Those immigrants were settlers, colonizers. There was no host culture with which they'd merge (just a bunch of tribal hunters and gatherers) - and even when they settled in already dense areas, their culture was not entirely foreign since they were all from Europe (and even then you got clashes sometimes, especially with the Irish that transported their religious conflict to the Americas).
Last but not least: They also weren't Lumpen on the lookout for easy money, they deliberately came to the US for political reasons, identifying with the values of it, entrepreneurial spirit, etc
There are so many reasons.
i dont get anarchists and the left in general's fascination for immigration because of "muh class unity". just because you put a bunch of people together wont make them friends, and putting a bunch of people who have completely different cultures and worldviews, and have historically conflicted is a totally shit idea. the only way immigration can be beneficial is if the capitalist government spread out evenly the population of immigrants, and that shit isnt happening because obviously the capitalists dont give 2 fucks about the people they take in. class consciousness will not rise with immigration, racial conflict will.
under socialism, when we've successfully establish a dictatorship of the proletariat, immigration between socialist countries should be encouraged to build solidarity. under capitalism immigration does nothing but cause conflict in the working class and benefit the capitalists.
It's usually accelerationism + knee-jerk support for anything that "fascists" oppose.
I oppose it for tactical reasons.
kys