After much reading and consideration I consider myself something of a market socialist/anarcho-feminist

I mean gradually, like start redpilling college students and shit. Feminism is going to be insalvageable as long as liberalism is as widespread as it is.

and post feet

I suspect you know this but leftypol hates feminism, you might as well ask theredpill, PUAhate and other MRA sites how to fix feminism

no shit, nobody here thinks that womens rights movements in the third world are pointless, but most of 1st world feminism is women wanting to be bourg.

Pic related is a great book on how Feminism essentially betrayed its core values from the lens of sex worker perspective.

First world feminism is toxic, particularly to third world feminism, but you make a valid point.

Yes, first world feminism is a fundamentally classist movement as far as I can tell.

anfem shitposter is a scort?

I don't normally post as anfem.

How do we fix feminism? Well, you can't really. It's a mess whose revolutionary potential has been lacking on the outside and been appropriated by the ruling class to further idpol ends, and liberal reform. Do you know the adage that goes "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest of us"? It's kinda like that now.

I can tell. there's another anfem who has the shittest posts in the realm

Im not talking about the third world but modern/third wave feminism cares nothing about the struggles of women in the third world.

In the Middle East where I'm originally from, Feminists under repressive regimes backed by Capitalists have been rounded up and put into camps for being Leftist in sympathy. A family friend was hung up by her breasts and had dogs set on her as a means of execution.

By contrast in America white, upper middle/upper class college girls get together to talk about #girlboss. It's… fucking unreal. Growing up with the transition was a culture shock.

where come do you from? i thought prostitution was banned in middle east

Do you know how diverse feminism is(you're a leftypol shitter so probably not)? Claiming feminist dont care about 3rd world women is really fucking stupid, and i have a feeling like Sargon and the rest of the alt-left youtubers you're not really familar with feminism and think obese pre teens on tumblr represent an entire movement

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Lebanon, family moved to the US when I was little.

Nope. Just kept behind closed doors.

Bullshit. Read any literature about the split between mainstream feminists in the early 80's and the sex worker rights movement and you will see exactly what I'm talking about in terms of most forms of feminism being classist and counterrevolutionary.

there IS an unintoxicated form of feminism, is called simple marxism and anarchism.
specifying the "feminism" part always ends in an idpolization.

Not in the least. Marxism and anarchism fail to address power dynamics outside of ownership of Capital and the existence of the state.

Okay, I'll pick up that book you posted an image of. Can you suggest any other books?

I'll read it if I have time, but I'm really busy with music, writing, and university at the moment so can you give me a summary?

As it is first world feminism, is going to need to be killed at the root(liberalism) and reborn if you want it to be anything but a club for rich girls working for rich girl issues. My ex ended up escorting for a year and she got shit on by some of the feminists for internalizing male power structures or some shit so I know they're not looking after lower class women or sex workers.

As a hick from a poor (formerly) rural part of Texas the upper class mostly white college girls mostly avoid me unless they want to get fucked so there's not a lot I can do to help kill it other than signal boost.

that's because the only struggle that matters is the class one, any other conflict besides it is just a river mouth of the main one.
killing capital leads to the destruction of state, patriarchy, racism, and imperialism.

Ancraps yes, but actual anarchists are opposed to all forms of social hierarchy. Opposition to the gender authority should be as much of a part of anarchism as anti-nationalism, anti-capitalism, and anti-racism.

It does seem that more than a few anarchists forget this, however…

That's tragic and I'm sorry it had to happen to someone close to you. Really, I'm just very pessimistic about how we can be received when the two responses we'd get is how we'd somehow upset the natural order between men and women or that the women's movement is redundant but nonetheless revolution will eliminate such needs, almost as if they both are already too late.

You should read Apo tbh.
freeocalan.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/liberating-Lifefinal.pdf

A few articles that related to it, particularly case studies of what happens when first world feminists start international campaigns to directly involve themselves in third world issues. It almost never ends well. Let me look for my flash drive.

Bourgie feminists fuck over minority, working class, and sex worker women because they don't want to dance to their tune.

No. Modern day social classes literally started with modern day capitalism. There are older problems and distinct problems.

I consider that a counter-revolutionary sentiment.

Yep.

Honestly I find it disingenuous to think that racism and sexism are such a long term issue that existed prior to highly hierarchal, modern day Capitalist society that somehow ending Capitalism will resolve the previously existing issues.

Well first of all, anarcho anything is just autism. Read Rousseau.

As for feminism I think the answer is to just ignore it and discredit the unreasonable/sjw factions while focusing on actual material demands from the ruling class. When you do notice reactionaries doing something particularly stupid to women call them out on it and do something about it. Just make sure you make it known the women's liberation isn't what liberals think it is.

As a market socialist that would probably mean making the government more inclined to help co-ops, giving workers the first right of refusal on the sale of the means of production by their firms, advocating for the federal,state and local govs to start establishing socialized capital funds, ect.

I mean the demands to the ruling class.

notanargument.jpg

Would you like me to lay out Rousseau's entire argument for you faggot?

yes

I'll check it out.

I read the Social Contract. If you believe in the Leviathan, then there is no obligation for anything from workers rights to human rights, and the idea of Leftism is essentially defunct.

I have no problem with people who fight for equality of genders, races, classes, etc. and identify as feminist. I just have a problem with people who divert attention from real problems (wealth inequality, homelessness, exploitation of the working class, etc.) and focuses on non-issues or made up ones (gender pay gap, micro-aggression, toxic masculinity, the pink tax, etc.) Also what the fuck is the >alt-left

sexual discrimination is just another form of alienation, destroying capital leads to the destruction of any form of alienation, including sexual discrimination.
you better fight the main economical structure (capitalism), than their products (the state, patriarchy).

i meant that the if class struggle ends, the same happen with sexual and state hierarchies.

We're on the same page, my take on Feminism is working class/prostitute/third world centric in many ways.

The only kind of legitimate state he envisions in the social contract is basically a horizontal law making structure among all citizens that gives its orders to a regular government to carry out. This is basically what anarchists want except he's not autistic enough to call it anarchy because to pretty much every normal person, its a state.

Well did you understand it? The social contract was a direct rebuke of Hobbes and his leviathan.

False. Patriarchal culture has been a thing since antiquity, Capitalism didn't bring it about. To state that it did in order to redirect feminist social effort to your own revolution is fundamentally counterrevolutionary to ours.

Again, false. Even in societies with relatively flat social hierarchies gender inequality was an issue.

…I think you have that backwards friend. Hobbes was the one writing the rebuke.

i know were on the same page i just find it easier to neglect/ attack the movement until it dies and then start a new because at the moment feminism is really a counter-revolutionary movment

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau

Wow I didn't know those anglo fucks had the power to travel through time and space!

In the west it certainly is. But ironically the people most aware of that are third world feminists because they typically fuck us over most directly when we interact.

That's something I've already got a good understanding of tbh. Do you have any more book suggestions?

And show butt.

Racialist socdems or tfw no gf nazi. Cancer at any rate.

Whoops. That'll teach me to post tipsy.

Unrelated to this, the book "Night as Frontier" is pretty damn good. It's a sociological study of night life as being a frontier state.

Hobbes Leviathan is what the state is in practice, not Rousseau's vision of a state. Can you argue against anarchism without arguing the semantics of what constitutes a state?

Does feminist socialism/anarchism have to be considered a distinct ideology? There's no such thing as anti-feminist socialism.

Well of course I'm critical of most states in their current rendition, but certainly there are examples in history of legitimate states, certainly there were certain city states during Europe's history, and even I'd say the administration of Rojava is legitimate.

Sure there are. There are a great many socialists who are in fact counterrevolutionary toward issues of non-class based emancipation.

Class struggle takes priority over other forms of oppression =/= other forms of oppression don't matter

You'd be amazed at how quickly some people become a moving target when you call them out on appearing to express the latter.

class struggle is not more important than sexual discrimination, but is primal.

Out of curiosity, could you give some examples of places that followed Rousseau's model of a state? Rojava for the most part follows an anarchist program, with a few exceptions. Authority still ultimately rests within communes, and in no way resembles the Leviathan. When anarchists are critical of states, they're critical of the Leviathan.

The Melbin book? I read that a few years back while recovering actually, thought it would be about clubbing but was pleasantly surprised. I'll flip through it again when I have the chance.

I believe so.

Yeah, it's got some interesting ideas in it. I interact with a lot of night life so I was fascinated.

Abdullah makes the argument that class society began with the slavery of women. You should read if you have the time

The problem is bourgeois feminism, pink washing is bullshit.

For instance:
Fucking Dove is not a feminist organization it's a soap company.

Taylor Swift is a multi-millionaire who takes advantage of tax loopholes despite being richer than God and has never had to worry about her work being concieved of as less valuable because it's considered "feminine"

This is a good article on the subject I read a few weeks ago:

inthesetimes.com/article/19272/marketplace-feminism-and-the-commodification-of-empowerment

I actually read something on VICE (I know) about Taylor Swift as an avatar for the muh privilege of upper class white women being able to enjoy power, muh privilege, and protected status simultaneously recently.

By abolishing age of consent.

Some parts of Switzerland, Athens to a small extent.

What the fuck is this. Why do people think "we" have any bearing on this? I get that this is a hypothetical in order to discuss these issues but still…

It feels like larping. We should come to terms with our powerlessness

Can we see some ass please?

so what? woman alienation was the first type of slavery.

communism isn't an "option" besides feminism or anarchism, anti-imperialism etc; communism includes every struggle focusing in the primary source of alienation, capital and class struggle.

couldn't agree more the bourgeois using identity politics to suppress the revolution

I've read enough about hypothetical Communist endgame to know that communalization of women is a goal of Communism as well as the dissolution of the nuclear family, but most Communist countries never actually get that far.

Why does it matter what someone refers to themselves as?

I knew it. Commies want to collectivize my vagina!

Not exactly, but it seemed a bit open to interpretation for my taste.

I remember being intrigued but it's been a while so I'm foggy on the details. Will look through it again when I have the time.

You have any more recommendations for reading?

state mandated gf when?!

It doesn't matter except to him, since he's a high priest in the religion of orthodox Marxism.

You're a fucking idiot

Last thing I started reading was The Devil's Chessboard. It's not bad.

I'm not wrong, but you may have misunderstood me.

Just watch the Democrats or surrogates like Trevor Noah's """""Daily Show"""" in the election with idpol.

They connect the social progress with economics so despite the fact that I'm well into 5 figures in debt with a shitty job I still must support the status quo for the progress in that now fags can get tax breaks from marriage too and there's a transwoman with a tv show.

If you think for a second to vote for Jill Stein on your morals or economic beliefs then you hate all LGBT people and want abortion to be criminalized in every "red state".

Disregard feminism
Bring on socialism.
The rest will follow.

Read Lukacs

kibutzs count?

Kind of, but Israel REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

this

this

gomrades pls

what does he have to say?

Hush, don't blame them for being fat neets.

Honestly, pre-1917 Zionism wasn't as bad and the Kibbutzim was in many ways a holdover of that. The problem is when the Brits came in and pitted them against each other, then the anti-gommies came in and decided that arbitrary borders and shit actually had importance

Look into Plan Dalet. The British were shitheads, but it wasn't their Mandate that was the problem.

Plan dalet was later… I'm talking the pre-Chaim Weizmann Zionists. Who just wanted to escape the pogroms and antisemitism of the era

My roommate has a copy of that and it's on my reading list after The Wolves That Live in Skin and Space and On the Modern Cult of the Factish Gods. It's about the CIA and Hulles I believe?

I know. Different stuff.

Dulles, yes.

Just that "establish socialism and everything else will follow " is a flawed statement that stems from a very simplistic understanding of the development of capitalism.

Alright I'll check it out asap.

If you're drunk atm you should watch The Last Time I Saw Richard. Brilliant short film you can only truly understand while a little fucked up.

Zionism rose out of the fear of being Jewish in much of Europe during the premodern era.

The early zionists weren't racists or at all what Israel is today, but instead people who faced levels of hatred that culminated in the worst genocide in recorded European history.

Modern Zionism, much like bourgeois feminism uses that past to gain support and silence critics under the guise of "look how bad it was then, support us because the current year meme"

I'm talking about feminism in particular though, not "everything".
Is there a page where he talks about that?

Except oppression under capitalism is possible only because of the economic disparities that exist. Take away the capitalism, the oppression behind it is meaningless and toothless.

You don't fight discrimination with feminism, black nationalism, white nationalism, or whatever. You fight it with socialism.

I mean, it never ends. Why do we need feminism or any other -ism besides socialism? If you meet the criteria of >non bourgoise< then socialism aims to solve most of your problems which inherently deal with the root: economic oppression.

No idea. I'm fixing it by moving to Eastern Europe an marrying a woman there.

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Overcoming other forms of oppression is to aid the overall class struggle.

Focusing solely on these other forms of oppression is what slows down the class struggle.

You arnt really up to date with contemporary anarchism are you? Anti Society and anti social relations are a huge thing lately. I think you dont hear about it mutch as its post left and radical individualistic theory instead of the usual IDPOL new left collectivist stuff or the old left marxian collectivist shit.

Thats called governance, not a state. State is structure of enforcement of power of those who controle that power in a system of governance.
State=/=Goverment

And yes most Anarchists support the idea of a Federation as Bakunin envisioned.

but that's really autistic user, probably why nobody takes you seriously

The common link is private property. Also market exchange and commodity production; the law of value in general. All of which predate capitalism and were essential to it developing. So to suggest that racism and sexism are some kind of essential feature of human nature is disingenuous. The abolition of the material basis of gendered and racial oppression will lead to the emancipation of all. Easy to say, of course, but harder to realize. It's only the greatest task facing humanity short of Anthropogenic Climate Disruption.

Well this is pretty much the book on the subject which should put all this idpol nonsense into perspective.

Although it highlights and focuses on gender differences, it almost entirely deals with the discrepancy where it matters: work and unfair division of labor and why this division exists.

She also made a documentary which is staunchly anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist. Even though she isn't a Marxist it should pretty much be required viewing for any feminist who doesn't quite get what the real issues are and what causes them.

CIA bls leave

So I spent the day with my ex and she thinks that with the shit the DNC pulled on Barnie Sandlers there's a lot of disaffected teenage to twenty-something people out there hostile in belief to liberal feminism but still calling themselves feminists. She thinks we could steer them away from liberal feminism and towards a more materialist mindset by going on about how liberals backed Shillary despite her baggage while stressing a need for a movement more oriented towards working women and marginalized groups. I'm not sure it would do any good, but despite believing in reformism my ex is smarter than me and probably has a better handle on these things. At worst it'd be another #resistcapitalism but we could use it to spread some radicalism.

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Feminism only can work if it only focuses on things that only effect women not something they think effects them more because all that other stuff should be left for egalitatrians. Also they have to stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming capitalism except for like Islamic countries.