Why do you guys have no regard for Natural Law, the Natural order, and human nature?

NO GOD'S NO MASTERS LMAO 😇😈 XD

Because the only natural law is Fuedalism and we need to accelerate the world into socialism so we can go back to monarchy obviously.

That goal is entirely possible if you want to get into Transhumanism and genetic modification but with humanity as it is now you will always have masters. Fucking deal with it and rationally work towards your goals without denying reality.

Not an argument

read a fucking book on evolution you clown, humans weren't "designed" by nature, it simply presented the conditions for our life to exist, and the rest took care of itself. This "natural" order is no more inherent then my existence on this planet.

I must be losing touch with technology, but how do shitpost emoji's?

Semantics, we weren't designed by a conscious will but we adapted and evolved to adapt to our environment. But just because you're a soulless nhilistic leftist who can't see any greater meaning or purpose to humanity or life doesn't mean that they don't exist.

The base of the human psyche is determined entirely by our genes and our genes were determined by our evolution. To think that our minds are some sort of separate entity from the rest of existence is just fucking stupid and delusional.

funny coming from the bootlicker who advocates that we be led by someone else who will have the best intentions for us.

wanna tell how I know you're a philistine
This is the most vague garbage I've read all day, I have no idea where you're going with this.

wallow in your own morbid self-pity and misdirection, I don't argue with pseduo-intellectuals

You make a lot of assumptions to assume that i'm a Fascist just because i'm arguing for natural law.

So you're going to arrogantly dismiss me like the ivory tower faggot that you are.

Fine, this is why Holla Forums actually influences real politics while you sit in your circlejerk doing jack shit.

Never seen it, no matter how hard I squint at the universe.

Not an argument.

We've had a form of primitive Communism since the dawn of modern humans until the rise of agriculture. That's about 180,000 years–much, much longer than any other mode of production we've had. If anything, class society runs contrary to human nature.

Why do you engage is a fruitless rebellion against nature?

What is this garbage? What, precisely, counts as natural law? Of course I know the answer will be "Things that I like".

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Gee, I dunno lol.

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Nigga….

if anything humans 'naturally' live in communes

Well humans and really any life form is incapable of understanding objective reality with 100% certainty but what matters is that we do our best to adhere and understand natures laws and then derived social systems from them.

Human nature isn't a single consistent state of being but rather a consistent set of systems that determine how we respond and adapt to the world around us.

Explain how ALL civilizations independently developed a hierarchical social system if it wasn't biologically inevitable.

Not an argument

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Everything follows the laws of physics. What is a social system not derived from nature's laws? inb4 "Communism"

They…didn't though?

And even if they did, the fact they happened under different times and conditions + creating different social arrangements kinda puts this idea that it's rooted in biology down the spookdumpster.

Communism

I agree. we need to get away from this unnatural democracy bullshit and back to having a king.

While the OP is comporting and substantiating poorly I think that it is important to point out that man in his natural state is predestined to greed.
This is why power unbalances itself and collects unto itself.
When charity is profitable to a man by way of social or personal gratification he will do thus.
When provided both power and the freedom to accrue a greater sum of it history shows us he will do exactly that.

Stop arguing with sarcastic false dichotomies.

Well one could argue that human cooperation is the natural order of things. Contrary to popular belief, hunter-gatherer societies weren't dog eat dog communities only the strong thrive and the weak tremble. That's just not how human beings and most other primates work. If anything life became more difficult when agriculture forced us to work eight hours a day just to eat. Then laws were created to divide property and the rest is Hegelian Dialectics baby.

But the personal issue I take with natural law and natural order is that despite the supposed consistency and safety of a natural constitution:
A) 99% of human history was built on or influenced by these ideas and 99% of human history sucks with no real protection provided by natural law. This is because;
B) everyone has their own interpretation about what is natural and what counts as the right thing to do. Even people who argee on the same definitions will attach completely different levels of weight to one concept over the other. Is reproduction in our nature? Should we make this an important part of our political lives? What is justice? Why do some people think justice applies in a certain situation, but others dont?

It doesn't appear that this is the case based on the core reasons why humanity came together to become a species that worked in groups and took care of the weak and young collectively, but were it the case the solution would be to fight against it and make a system where giving in to greed is given as little incentive as possible.

Of course nobody can objectively derive natural law but once you stop considering it of central importance you dun fucked up.

why don't you actually argue with it
democracy is unnatural
leaders take power by being the strongest and smartest, they don't wait for others
and groups of people don't naturally give a shit about other tribes. empire is natural, as humans will naturally use force to enslave others. slavery is natural too, it's in my best interest to enslave others, and it's the way pre-feudal societies organized
naturally, the weak should fear the strong

Exactly, so why place so much weight on muh nature?
Exactly, so why are you saying we disregard human nature entirely when we study politics, the science of human behaviour?

Why?

you're just avoiding points with every post

Do niggas just refuse to listen to leftists when they discuss how property shapes our human relations?

Or are they just retarded?

Because its a circular argument, similar to the idea of divine right of kings.

Because you become completely detached from reality and start to structure society based on your hopes and dreams rather than observation and cold logic.

Maybe instead of going down this route, explain how a hierarchy is biologically inevitable.

How?

A species that works in groups as described is essentially beneficial to every party, I.E profitable charity.
I do agree that this can theoretically be overcome.
One example that interests me is the movie I Robot (yes I know it's a shit movie), if we stop thinking of Will Smith as the protag and look at the robot overtake in an objective fashion it would actually benefit humanity if Smith had failed. Sure, some would die in ensuing attempts at revolution but overall it would end in a system where man and his greed is divorced from power and class entirely, being both governed and maintained by non humans who posses no greed, are literally programmed to serve and protect humans at all cost, and are vastly more intelligent.
It's essentially the perfect picture of a benevolent dictatorship, which is objectively the most efficient economic system.

So, engage in politics?

Hey remeber when the Greeks used the nature argument to explain how Athenians were born of gold and thus way smarter and betterer? Man, they sure understood reality alright

What about the hundreds of books on evolutionary psychology and race that established why women and inherently monstrous creatures and African are sub-human? Talk about cold hard logic based entirely on fact

My observation is that natural law doesn't exist.

Nothing I have seen this this thread changes that, and reinforces it.

Because Nature doesn't exist.

Or, more properly, everything is nature, what doesn't exist is the "Nature" that exists outside of the "artificial" world of humanity, mandating ideologies and social orders and otherwise acting as God's secular surrogate.

Thanks, I needed a good chuckle.

If you don't value reality than you obviously grow more distant from it over time.

Retard

More like it's your desire.

I do though, which is why I dont place too much weight on the idiosyncratic observations about how humans should act because muh nature.

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Well, time to drop the pill, if natural laws do not exist, neither do classes.

Your relation to the means of production is clearly observable.

Now you are on the right track

What, how?

Except 'natural law' is used as an a priori justification for the class system.

Do you sell your labor or buy others labor.

Show me a "law" atom, faggot.

And class warfare is a core tenet for Marxism.

No class, marxism is either useless or done.

Do you follow laws?

Show me a class atom.

Indeed, not naturally that is.

Spooky, mate.

Sure. Look outside and you will see Mass of Atoms A forcing Mass of Atoms B to work to survive.

Easily observable and non-imaginary, unlike natural law.

I thought that the left was supportive of science and trying to objectively understand the world.

I can see atom A following the laws, clearly observable.

The scientific method is merely one way to gain knowledge.

There's no such thing as pure objectivity, just different levels of subjectivity.

get the hell off of my board

So spooks are real.

You understand the laws of physics?

Nigga, even actual professional physicists don't understand those. And even the few things we dare call "Laws of Physics", what the fuck does that have to do with politics? Who is "against" those?

How can you not believe in science? I mean it's 2016

Are you asking me to prove that class is inherent to nature?

Because this is something that I obviously don't believe. It should be me asking you to find a class atom.

Yes we are, that's why we don't believe in mystical bullshit like "natural law".

Anarchism will break natural law.

77 posts in and OP still hasn't explain what "natural law" is.

It's like arguing against the Timecube.

to the extent that they have an effect on our daily lives and subconsciously influence our actions, yes

Natural law is not a thing, m8, but things. Natural Law directs human behavior. Because it is natural.

I believe op is referring to natural chain of command.

you mean the recent system that has led to humanities greatest strides in it's entire existence?
would you prefer everyone goes back to the stone age instead?

Then all human behavior and, by extension, all human social organization falls under "natural law".

so your argument is invalid then?

I have no clue why I quoted you, fam, sorry.

Naturally.

Then there's no point in talking about it.

Everything is "natural law".

There are systems and rules that govern reality and human behavior but not all of them are known to or completely understood by mankind as of yet.

However that's no reason to deny their existence.

And what are some of these "rules that govern reality"? And who is denying their existence?

Most people here believe in the laws of physics afaik

Well, no. See, if you observe here>>844095 I went 360º and wound up begging the question.

Naturally.

The fact that you have to say "most" and not "all" just reveals that Holla Forums is an utter shithole that's filled with people who are creationist tier delusional.

holy shit you're good

They're natural law.

That was a joke. Sarcasm. All people here believe in the laws of physics.

Ar you too afraid to tell us what one of your precious "natural laws" are in fear that we will demolish it using logic?

Fine then

Societal hierarchies are not arbitrary things externally imposed as a means of “oppressing” otherwise equal groups, but rather an organic expression of a healthy society organizing itself

I am saying you can see mass of atom A following natural laws.

If you do not believe in the existence of class, then there is no class struggle.

Class struggle is a spook.

I govern as a few things
"natural law"
as a natural forming chain of command.
A natural militant,social or community class

community class holds both state officials and rich,middle class and poor
it's not about money but about the power they hold over society.

the Natural forming classes/groups,etc
perhaps as social: alphas,betas,gammas,deltas and omegas

militant
leaders,followers

society
level of power one can gain in society

Indeed, following Stirner logic.

They are external in relation to the individual. This is obviously true, not even up for debate.

The happiest and healthiest countries are social democracies with relatively low social hierarchy. While countries with extreme political inequality (Saudi Arabia, DPRK) are utter shitholes. Objective observations of reality does not conform to your worldview.

There is no "natural law" to be gleaned from here, only your own biases you project onto reality.

stirner is just an asshole who breaks everything down until it's meaningless and disregards everything he disagrees with to justify his actions