Why wasn't Germany capable of winning on defense?

All of Germany's victories in WWII were from being on the attack, blitzkrieg, encirclements, etc

With the Battle of Kursk ending in mid-late 1943 with them losing, they couldn't attack anymore without being raped

Fine, why couldn't they just let the Soviets come to them and beat them?

Why not fall back, let the infantry fight them and slow them down, and pull back all armor/motorized/cavalry so they have no idea where they are, let the Soviets launch a big attack somewhere, let them push you back and gain some ground and create a salient, then swoop in on the flanks and cut them off and destroy them


It looks like Germany never once tried it or if they did they failed completely

cFnQ Hk

Other urls found in this thread:

heretical.com/miscella/14days.html
youtube.com/watch?v=TFYuz9yvyGU
youtube.com/watch?v=vQUp-yJMcm8
youtube.com/watch?v=cOGbvVP5DBc
youtube.com/watch?v=hk3xuqCIRns
youtube.com/watch?v=ryh3quE5X9w
media.8ch.net/pdfs/src/1427623988562-0.pdf
militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/index.html
heretical.com/miscella/14days.html
archives.chicagotribune.com/1941/12/04/page/1/article/f-d-r-s-war-plans
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks
gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=A97A4CB4A88C7F019C62BE3F7D15921A
holohoax.nu/videos/
holohoax.nu/category/videos/
forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=220340
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya
golibgen.io/view.php?id=1352866
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Honestly why did they even launch the battle of Kursk anyways? Did they think the Soviets didn't know it was coming? Didn't they know they had dug in hard and built bunkers and stuff?

I feel like it was too obvious that the attack was coming
I really don't know what they were thinking, unless they were working with the best intelligence they had at the time and actually thought it would work and its a hindsight is 20/20 type thing

Kursk could have been won if they didn't let up in Prokhorovka and that would have put a real wrench in Soviet operations.

Maybe, if they retreated to better defencife lines and cut the loses. But Hitler was idiot politician thinking he is good strategist. He should leave war to OKW.

Because they were extremely out numbered and had fewer resources than the Allies. It takes time to deploy massive armies, a strong offense is the only way to beat the numbers game.

pretty sure what you are describing is what Manstein/Guderian wanted to do in 1942 on the eastern front almost exactly. Hitler didn't understand modern war and was stuck in the WWI "hold on to every inch of ground" mentality. shame because his best generals were the only ones to tell him the truth and that Stalingrad would overextend their forces.

Germany has not enough resources, lots off countries they conquered have been targeted for their resources. Russia and Britain on the other hand have been supplied by the US.

Air superiority. Göring was a complete utter retard and absolutely unfit to lead the Luftwaffe.

Russians shat on the Germans from the air, same with the Allies. Oh you have tanks? Take some carpet bombs on your support routes, factories and civilian areas.
Göring even assured Hitler and the other generals the Luftwaffe is capable of supporting the german army in Stalingrad, subsequently leading to the loss of the entire army due to decision being made on the assumption of getting support by air.

The biggest mistake of WW2 was attacking the Jews in Russia. The Germans should have taken France and then concentrated their efforts on England. After the occupation of England the should have slowly reached outwards to eastern Europe solidifying their rule over the western territories and eventually spread out into the Middle East to teach the muslim shitskins about the benefits of national socialism. With unlimited supplies of oil and ressources they would have assraped Russia in weeks, because no one would have been willing to support them before the German army advanced on Russian soil. Assblasted burgers would have taken in massive number of jews and Israel would probably exist somewhere in the US today, with the entire East Coast being its Gaza strip, suffering from frequent invasions and air raids by the IDF.

Europe would probably be colonizing Mars now, a giant Eurasian Empire that dictates the term of any agreement.

Probably lack of resources and being surrounded from 3 sides.

Hitler wanted to win fast because he was dying from sclerosis of the heart.

If they had fallen back and taken a passive stance, the Soviets would have been free to take their time and put together a massive offensive that would have been the killing blow. You might respond that the Germans also would have had time to replenish manpower and supplies to prepare for this offensive, but keep in mind that Allied bombing raids on Germany were also reaching their full intensity at this time, which seriously curtailed their ability to resupply their forces and move troops around. The Soviets could have just played the waiting game and attacked with overwhelming force once the Germans had been whittled down enough through the air. The strategy of a fighting retreat that the Germans went with historically probably did give them the best chance to win; there was always the chance that the Soviets would overextend or make a huge blunder of some sort, which would give the Germans the initiative once again for a big counterattack. Really though, once the initial offensive stagnated at Stalingrad, they were more than likely fucked.

That wasn't an option because the Soviets were going to launch operation thunder in July 1941

heretical.com/miscella/14days.html

Wouldn't the Soviets just sitting there doing nothing have allowed Germany to put their industry into just air plane spam / research to knock out the strategic bombers?

Because Hitler wanted to bleed the Soviets for every inch they took and didn't stand for defense in depth. A lot of the generals told him it was madness because the Soviets couldn't literally drown him in bodies

OKH*

The OKW was basically the political body. The OKH was where the generals handled their business.

The war would have been won in 1942 if generals like Halder, von Brauchitsch and von Bock would have listen to Hitler's orders.

It's within the realm of possibility, but the Luftwaffe had been devastated at this point. The Germans would have had to retrofit enough factories to put out huge numbers of planes and find a way to train all the new pilots. Those both take time, and they would have to do it all without spies catching wind of what they were up to and directing the air raids to bomb the plane factories/airfields. And even had they succeeded, they would have to contend with the fact that the Soviets were now resupplied and ready to launch a huge offensive against the army they had just neglected in favor of the air force.

OP is a faggot
By the time the germans even got on the defense, their resources were depleted from fighting alone vs the rest of the world.

You cant win a defense if the enemy has more supplies.

Honestly I don't think Germany was 100% fucked until operation overlord and operation bagration had both succeeded

overlord destroyed a lot of stuff and opened up a third front (Italy was a thing), and unlike the tiny little mountainous bottleneck of Italy France was huge compared to it and the terrain wasn't that good for defense, and it would take a massive amount of general supplies and divisions to go from guarding the beaches to guarding an entire theater


And Bagration literally made the losses from Stalingrad and Kursk combined look like nothing

Germany literally lost 1/3 of its entire army and they were on the ropes before then anways

I think if they had beaten Overlord back into the ocean and had tactically withdrawn / reverse blitzkrieged / something to avoid destruction in response to Bagration, then they could still win

Afterwards it was over

Exactly how would it have been over when Hitler wanted to annihilate the Red Army instead of just capturing the strategic positions necessary to cripple them.
Hitler was fighting Napoleon's war. He believed taking Moscow was unimportant.

Except it was literally the opposite. The only thing Hitler was talking about that they couldn't win a war of nutrition ww1 style war vs russia, so they had to go for their natural resources.

They couldn't have won once they failed to break Soviet spirits. Soviets had twice the people Germany had and all their factories were relocated to the Urals, where they were safely putting out tank after tank, weapon after weapon. Germany was bombed to dust even without overlord, they'd have to disable English airports. If you are outnumbered 2:1 and your enemy has stuff that's significantly cheaper than yours and performs well enough, it's only a matter of time and skill before you lose. One way Germany could better chances of winning the war would be by encouraging Soviets to rebel on homefront. Russians hated the government after NKVD, ChK and other intelligence agencies wrought havoc on the population hardly 20 years ago. His lackluster efforts with armies like ROA came too late and were too uninspired.

At the beginning? No, the generals were the ones that wanted to rush the key industry positions.
After shit went south obviously they wanted to use defense in depth.

You are literally retarded. He even talked about it in 1928.

Just post your sources, faggots. Hearsay a shit

This was a very big part of it. Hitler's stubbornness on this may have been an outgrowth of his Parkinson's.

yes


One way of looking at it. Another is that if they were going to invade eastward, they should have gone in as liberators rather than alienate the locals like the Ukrainians. The Germans never turned it into a revolutionary war against Bolshevism, but instead the invasion of a foreign power, which the locals understandably resisted.

The Germans also had major problems with production due to bureaucracy. By the time that Albert Speer had sorted that out, it was already too late. Hitler should have put Speer on the problem in 39.

To add to the list:

I am 100% sure that at least von Bock wanted a drive for Moscow fast and Hitler overruled his plan in favor of creating encirclements on Soviet armies at Minsk and Vitebsk.

Nazi Germany was facing the three greatest powers of the day: The British Empire, the USSR, and the USA and they still almost won. That's a remarkable feat no matter what but it doesn't change the fact that they were up against impossible odds and that's why they didn't make it. At least they could hold the claim of being the most scientifically advanced nation the lifetime of their existence. Truly remarkable.

The only thing left to lament now is for the greatest generation to realise they fought on the wrong side when they see how modern society has turned out and that Hitler was right about everything.

Not true, Walter Model won countless victories in defense posture, but you can't win a war of annihilation by being on the defensive.

Because they were desperate for victory to boost morale and the Kursk salient was a good option.

KEK, the OKH assured Hitler of an easy victory in the east by Christmas and had to come back with their tail behind their legs.

Without digging in during the 41/42 winter the infantry and panzer corps with their divisions would have had no defensive line to fallback to, and many would have to leave their artillery and tanks behind.

Germany didn't allocate resources for total war until 1942/3. While in America and the Soviet Union most factories were converted into wartime manufactures the 3rd Reich was still selling Volkswagens.

Why wouldn't you

Operation Barbarossa was a fiasco because the most efficient organizational elements which make any campaign successful were absent from this plan. Many different heads pulling the cart in their own direction instead of a comprehensive goal which everybody agrees upon. It's a lesson in management.

NO RESOURCES
they didn't have
If they stay put, they would be starved to death. You think Hitler learned nothing form the first WW?
You can figure this shit out from one game of HoI 2.

Germany itself was a great power. People forget that the entire reason the German Empire ended up how it did in WWI was precisely because everyone else knew they HAD to unite to fight them.

Up until they dismantled the Prussian leadership, the land army of the Germans could not be beat in a one on one encounter. The doctrines behind it, the officers, the entire culture of it, could not be beaten. That's why the efforts of "denazification" were more an assault on the junker officers that rulled the Heer than anything else.

It's not about the fact that they should never do it, but they almost always did it. Not only can that be a mistake, but it makes them predictable.


Germany spent a great deal on warfare, but their production was limited because of bureaucracy and because military demands were put before the realities of production. Read the excerpt from image.

Because you can't bleed Russia dry. That's the rules of 19th and 20th century warfare. You will NEVER bleed Russia dry. The only way to defeat a Russian state, Soviet, Imperial, or otherwise, is to strike at key positions and demoralize them while also robbing them of their ability to wage war.

Hitler wanted to break the Red Army because he believed that taking positions like Moscow wouldn't matter, because it didn't matter to Napoleon. So he insisted on encirclement battles as often as could be done instead of rushing to the key cities.

Is this what Hitler meant he said that it wasn't his fault he lost and that other people fucked up/ didn't listen to him/ whatever?

Yes, and thats the kind of shit that lost the war. Moscow literally means nothing. Even the Soviet generals knew that.
"If Germany succeds in taking Moscow, that is obviously a grave disappointment for us, but it by no means disrupts our grand strategy… The only thing that matters is oil. As we remember, Germany kept harping on her own urgent oil problem in her economic bargaining with us from 1939 to 1941. So we have to do all we can a) to make Germany increse her oil consumption, and b) to keep the German armies out of the Caucaus" - Timoshenko
Quess what Hitler wanted to attack. Guess what happen to von Bock's panzer division in november when he ignored Hitler's orders.

Guess who was sick the day when the final detailing of Barbarossa was made.

I need more sauce on Hitler knowing what to do but people disobeying him or trying to do it but being incompetent

It makes this scene hit so hard if he was right about that too (aside from the ideology and being red pilled and such)

Hitler caught Typhoid and his generals disobeyed his containment strategy and invaded Russia

/thread/

Not sure which point you are responding to, but I know there was at least one case of someone surrendering when Hitler told him not to. Probably some others can fill in the gap on this, as I don't know a lot about battles and tactics. My main observation was that the Third Reich fucked up in terms of alliances and production/economic realities. There was also bad people and planning, but that will occur in every war and government.

To get to the other point, the military bureaucracy was so entrenched that Speer only brought up production after facing great resistance, and that was even with Speer having Hitler's total support. If the Third Reich ever needed to fulfill popular stereotypes about their strictness, they should have done a little more here. Maybe a night in jail for some of the army guys who obstructed what Speer was doing, as it was absolutely vital if Germany were to have any chance at all.

A general sentiment by Irving and others is that Hitler was a very smart and creative man, but he lacked extensive training in military tactics. Hitler's early decisions were brilliant and paid off well, and were made over the objections of many of his generals, but this tended to confirm his own view that his generals really didn't know what to do, so Hitler continued to intervene in military decisions throughout the war. This did not work out well as the war progressed.

Again, Hitler had Parkinson's. He was not only losing his sharpness over time, but his mental state was becoming more rigid.

Except Moscow was the central point of Soviet logistics. It very much did matter. Everything produced in the Urals passed by Moscow. To say Moscow doesn't matter is absolutely asinine.

As well, von Bock's army group was not responsible for the push south to the Caucasus. To take Moscow does not invalidate taking the Caucasus.

And guess what doesn't contribute to either of those goals? Stopping an armored spearhead to pick off Russians that'll get replaced the next day by another 3, because that's what Russia does. It drowns you in manpower.

funny how one retarded decision by few can shape the history and future of humanity.

Gives me goose bumps when thinking how we would have colonized mars by now while having almost 0% crime and all our lifes being focused on doing important things instead of having to shitpost on a fucking image board and pray for the day of the rope.

At this point I'm just hoping there are some based aliens around our solar system who will come to our help.

Berlin to Moscow is mostly flatlands with few real terrain obstacles. To offset numerical inferiority against almost every other nation in Europe, quick victories are needed. Coupled with a lack of strategic resources, an offensive strategy is necessary. They just couldn't achieve the multitude objectives necessary for absolute victory. It's why the poles always fielded extremely mobile forces as well and why cavalry stayed relevant for longer in the east.

after Moscow and Stalingrad it really didn't make any difference anymore
the war was lost

So you are claiming to know more than the Marshal of the Soviet Union?
Yeah if you don't take time or manpower into account
Look up what happen to von Bock's division.

What do you think they were trying to do? Also effectiveness of the German army was highest of any other all the way till the last days of war (best K/D).

To keep a long story short, they lost due to the combination of being pounded into the dust by allied bombings, nearly endless cannon fodder (both man and vehicles) the Russians could field and of course the industrial capacity of the USA. Those are the major reasons why, then you have shit like battle of Britain, Stalingrad, Africa that were quite significant blows on manpower and materiel.


Shouldn't this be in some sort of a history board, if there is one?

While only somewhat related, looking into Hitler I'm not even remotely sure how he got this ultimate evil moniker. He was actually a pretty damn good person, he didn't go and kick puppies or fun but the opposite. He didn't suck on babies penises and eat their foreskins either. He punished people who were too rough with prisoners. He didn't go and shoot kids personally for fun while laughing like a maniac. Oh and how he acted in his home movies, an image of him he himself hid from the public for fear of being perceived as weak so we know what he was really like
youtube.com/watch?v=TFYuz9yvyGU
youtube.com/watch?v=vQUp-yJMcm8
youtube.com/watch?v=cOGbvVP5DBc
youtube.com/watch?v=hk3xuqCIRns
youtube.com/watch?v=ryh3quE5X9w

One of the most interesting quotes of Hitler when being filmed in private was when he said "What are you filming an old man for? I should be filming you.". His actions showed he truly cared.

This is not even including his own hard childhood. The guy is a real war hero (WWI) and he wasn't a coward either as his contemporaries described him and his actions. People who didn't agree with him but were around him personally described him well. He wasn't this ruthless bad guy like so many others in history yet they keep talking about the guy like he was the most evil guy ever but he wasn't anywhere close. What's the deal?

Yes. Soviet generals were fucking shit. Even if they weren't, why would they tell the truth?

Before or after he had to stop at Minsk to finish an encirclement he didn't agree was productive to taking Moscow, which was what Hitler told his army group to do.

They should have just finished off Britain when they had the chance after capturing France. But unfortunately Hitler had a soft spot for the British Empire and let them regroup. If not for that, he would have been able to focus solely on the USSR and push through to Moscow. Honestly, if not for Churchill, Ribbentrop would have been able to negotiate a neutrality pact with Chamberlain and avoid fighting Britain altogether.
They had the European continent under their fucking thumb, but due to foreign negotiations breaking down and incompetent/resistant generals, they weren't able to hold onto the territory they gained by the time the Reds stepped in.

war of nutrition

meine seiten!

There's >>>/his/ but it's not terribly active these days. I think once Hiroshima made a /his/ board, most went back there.

WHEN BREAKFAST STRIKES BACK, IT AIN'T PRETTY

That's undiluted bullshit.

1. The Northern group was dismayed at Citadel's cancellation (they actually made close to the necessary gains near on schedule.)
2. Manstein was incensed at its repeated delays (waiting to combat trial muh Panthers cucked any advantage to assaulting the pocket at all.)

3. Like with most of the strategic game ending gambits for Germany, doctrinal half-measures defeated their purpose.

A feigned Citadel as OP queried would have played to their (Manstein's) strengths (rope-a-dope, limited counter offensives, kiting, defense in depth); the Center and South would have had a fighting chance at stabilizing. In the end, the decisive confrontation wasn't given the all-or-nothing credence its planning was conceived by, and the compromised forced the positional death spiral that reinforced AH's fortress mentality – with options limited to Model's firebrigade methods against Operation Mars. If a decision was required before a Atlantic Wall breach, delaying for new panzer toys and pulling out as though it weren't Stalingrad redux were the two best options to execute, only to achieve nothing.

...

Literally read the article and watch the greatest story never told

...

media.8ch.net/pdfs/src/1427623988562-0.pdf

WWII military tactics/strategy threads always throw me for a loop. I'm never really sure what the Axis should have done. There's a solid argument for and against every maneuver.

The more I research this stuff, the more I realize how bad things were. War with the USSR was pretty much unavoidable, and war with the Anglo coalition was also pretty much unavoidable in the long run. Germany and Japan were severely short on resources from the get-go, and most of the countries in the alliance were either largely irrelevant due to size or development (Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.) or just completely disappointing (Italy). China and the USSR could use human-wave tactics until the heat death of the universe, Britain had its massive empire to conscript and draw resources from, and the USA was a huge superpower in its own right that had a large industrial capacity that could churn out weapons and vehicles ad infinitum, without its infrastructure or population being threatened by the war. Then there were all the resistance movements in Europe, effectively preventing Germany from easily administering conquered territories.

Even in hindsight, being able to look back at all the information we have now, and knowing what worked and didn't work, putting together a strategy for Axis victory seems like a daunting task. I'm sure they could have won, but it seems like it would have required nigh perfection in almost every field of operation, from start to finish. This is far more than you could expect of any leadership or military.

Comparatively speaking, the Allies had it easy. Let the Russians and Chinks flood the battlefield while the British and Americans lock down the seas and carpetbomb everything.

Well, to be honest we like to shit on cuckchan a lot but everything except Holla Forums and Holla Forums is still bretty gud there imo

sage your off-topic posts nigger

Another reading of Suvorov. Very recommended, and its says somethings about WW2 and why soviets won/Germany lost.

militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov12/index.html

Because their crucial resources were directly exposed as soon as someone stepped onto their territory. If they were not, they were within bomber range.

These same resources were partly why they expanded the way they did in the first place. Going back was losing.

Eastern front Aces on the Axis side had stupendous victory counts; the inability to exercise that dominance operationally over the entire contiguous front, or even sustain it locally in the second half of the conflict seriously limited their options for more expansive counter offensives.
Goering could be forgiven if only the same resources were dedicated to forcing a route to the city (or at least Malinovka). In the absence of AH strategic bomber fetish, their air force could have achieved much more. The guy was bright, even though an opiate fiend.

Ya' said it yourself, the inability to replicate that on an operational level fucked them over. The German military was some of the best in the world - if not the best - through the entirety of the 20th and 19th century. But even that won't stop ya' from getting shot at by 40 times more enemy planes than allied planes plus the countless anti-air placements littering the ground. Basically, kissing up to the Krauts effectiveness in a void means jack shit.

1) Centralize economy and purge the bankers/landowners/capitalists. Do not privatize shit again. That's half of the won war right there.
2) Wage war on the West and do not stop until England - and everything on the east of Atlantic - is fully occupied. End the war.
3) Do not invade Soviets. They don't have a single ally and it's government doesn't trust the army - they will never invade alone.
4) Leave Japan to be slaughtered by US. They cannot be saved.

That's it. World divided into three centres: Capitalist Americas, Fascist Europe and Africa, Communist Asia. Jedem das seine.

That clown is not a serious source.

War with the Soviet Union, the British empire, and the United States was innevitable for all of them because they all wanted to destroy not just Germany but every single country that went against globalism and their plans for their new world order, the greatest story never told explains this

They were never interested in peace, Churchill would never make peace even if losing because the Jews literally went all in with the war and were basically prepared to have the goys fight to the death for them over making peace, screen cap related explains why

That's why even after getting fucked by having their plan to invade Norway and Sweden failed (R-4 plan, that's why Germany invaded Denmark and Norway to pre-empt it), and after having their plan to invade Germany from France failed (because of case yellow), they still refused to make peace, they didn't care they wanted to go all out to destroy Germany and all the others too

The Soviets were planning on attacking in July 1941

heretical.com/miscella/14days.html

And the US was planning on attacking sometime in spring or summer 1943, they were gonna call it operation sledgehammer

archives.chicagotribune.com/1941/12/04/page/1/article/f-d-r-s-war-plans


They even said that even if BOTH the Soviets AND Britain went down they would STILL wage war against the Axis

Imagine how insane that sounds from some civilian living in the US' point of view

That was what the government and military were planning on doing

That's because Luftwaffe wasn't doing anything else and couldn't even rotate pilots.

Thanks to their awesome general staff the Germans were able to excercise tactical dominance despite strategic inferiority. Aerial failures were due to production and resource issues. The us and Russia were able to bring forward operational superiority later in the war and French armor technology was better than German armor in the very beginning, they just did better with what they had. It's the same story in both world wars. German were strategically and tactically brilliant but made poor alliances and couldn't match allied political capital. The allies got rekt on the field but learned and turned their massive advantage in production, population, and varied skills into victory.

Just imagine if they took Britain and installed Mosley as their vassal. They probably could have taken on the US full force. Maybe then we wouldn't live in this globalist nightmare today.

Literally impossible because the Soviets were going to attack no matter what

No, they weren't. There is literally no shred of evidence of it.

Seriously, what the fuck are you even posting?
Even Ukrainian Nazi don't put numbers that high.

1930 — 4.76 mil tonnes of grain
1931 — 5.06 mil tonnes of grain
1932 — 1.73 mil tonnes of grain

...

Read the fucking article faggot

heretical.com/miscella/14days.html
heretical.com/miscella/14days.html
heretical.com/miscella/14days.html

And listen to Hitler and friends literally talk about how stunned they were once they realized just how much the Soviets prepared for it, they knew about it in advance so they pre-empted it with Barborssa, but they didn't fully understand just what they pre empted until after they got into the country


And watch the greatest story never told

Your article is provably bullshit, you autistic sperglord.

I literally posted you numbers of Soviet grain exports - which do not correlate to your bullshit article.

At least 8 hours before the Germany launched attack, Soviet command was already making preparations and giving orders to the troops (except many orders were simply ignored).

Did this guy even attempt to read anything?

Yes. The fact that he falsifies evidence and even then is forced to rely on suggestions and possibilities, rather than actual evidence.

It's called political smear, user. Most of history is upside down and people hardly realize it.

Take a look at some historical figures and what they did IN CONTEXT instead of believing ((historians)) wich were state-sponsored. It also has a lot to do with locality and religion. Christians are the most disgusting at rewriting history to suit their goals, but other parts of the world did it too, the jews foremost amongst them, as i'am sure you are very well aware. Sulla for example, the first roman dictator, was actualy a conservative hero, but caesar shat all over his legacy of public duty and restoring order to a degenerate rome wich was being ruled by criminals. Another good example is Genghis Khan, wich did nothing out of the ordinary for his time period, the problem was the quadrillion chinese scholars writing about he "had 3 testicles and was satan" to please the chinese emperos afterwards. Christians outright stole lore from many religions, not just pagan europeans, more than half of what christians think are saints were actualy local pagan warlords who simply took gold to kill people the church disliked (if thou shall not kill, at least pay someone to do it :^) ). Christians also often stole inventions and research from "witches" like burning a witch, taking over all his writings and findings and trying to pass them as your own to the pope, much of medieval effective medicine was "developed" this way, priest moves to pagan lands, steals everything and gets rid of the person who did in a fire, rinse, repeat, the pope then proceeded to proclaim they were godly, curiously, this behavior was mostly found amongst catholics and very rare in orthodox, arian or coptic places. Charlemagne was a crazy psycopath who both mocked the church and, ironicaly, won the battle that saved europe because hhe was reinforced by a germanic pagan warlord, wich he then preceded to betray and murder after the battle (typical saint, eh).

All in all, to really understand history i highly recommend you read upon character from at least 3 different perspectives. The people who benefited by his/her actions, the people harmed, and the neutral observers (wich are a bit rare, since the religious authorities went out of their way to destroy writings wich tarnished its less than stellar reputation).

Oriental history is much more convoluted due to the fact the only peope who really gave a shit about writing stuff down were the chinese, and the chinese were as imperialistic and lying as fug. Japan on the other hand made a point of being respectful to the memory of eachother, regardless of sides, a quite unique historical cultural trait.

Hope this post helps you understand the world a bit better.

And remember, Hitler had three testicles, was homosexual, crossdressing, an alien, insane, a monster, had no dick, had two dicks, loved men secretly, loved jewish girls secretly, was actualy posses by satan, was satan himself, was an atheist, was a religious fanatic, and finaly, was not even real.

[/spoiler] Its all true, it says so here in my ((history)) book aproved by the ((church)) and the ((government)) [/spoiler]

Check out the Stalin IDF

...

Fine read Irving then.

Welcome over, faggot.

I'd prefer being Stalin IDF to this pitiful wreck of excuses.

Read this again:

Hitler is not a fucking source, you moron. He can only point out that Red Army was better supplied than he imagined it to be - which was true. Everybody thought that Bolsheviks were poorly armed and that they will run for the hills, once Europeans show up on battlefield.

Maybe Hitler reported finding infamous "assault tanks" that could not move cross-road? Or maps of invasion? Or did prisoners tell him that preparations were underway? No. None of this happened.

The Germans are very good at trying to destroy Europe.
That's why my country voted to leave the EU. And continually fights against German hegemony.
The Germans control the EU. My country is a group of isands, so we don't have land borders.The sea is the border.
I love Europe - but the Krauts have a weird collective mentality. They will vote Merkel in again.

I honestly don't understand the Germans. They must be stopped. They have a tendency for destruction.
Merkel is a lunatic. (ex stasi East German secret police) Really. The Germans need another kicking.
UK has the strongest military in Europe. We could sort the Krauts out with ease.

I like Germany. Ilived and worked there for 4 years. I am fluent in the language. And try to understand the culture.
It is very different to British culture.

How does it feels having jewish-american cock in your anus, Brits?

Catholics.
You'd probably have to replace it 20 times more in your text.

Ukrainians actually did view the National Socialists as liberators. They won't tell you this when they first meet you, for obvious reasons, but I know several people who saw both the Soviet and the National Socialist invasions.


Seriously though, you are such an obvious Soviet shill. And yes, the NKVD were a bunch of absolutely bloodthirsty murderers. When they were sending my wife's grandmother to Siberia they made her and the people in her choir, at 12 years old, sing a song about how the Kulaks "shouldn't fear because it will all be over soon" and taunted her before murdering her entire family.

(With the pictures, I am not 100% sure whether they are from Western Ukraine or Eastern Poland.)

Yeah, i tried to make that a bit more clear later on. The other forms of chreistianity were much more tame in comparison to cathoolicism.Granted, mpart of it was because the other branches were not nearly as powerful or as rich as the catholics, therefore its only logical they were less corrupted.

I should stop drinking before shitposting

WW2 was all about mobility warfare, the effectiveness of static defenses and "trench warfare" were largely negated by the rapid movements of modern tanks, airplanes and mechanized infantry. It was far better to be on the offensive.

France depended on their Maginot line, one of the most intricate and expensive defensive lines, to defend their border from Germany. Germany hit it as hard as they could through an unfinished portion from an area France did not expect. The rest of the line was then rendered useless as German troops poured into their country.

The USSR had their Stalin line, which was far shittier but about as effective at holding up the Germans.

Then when Hitler started losing and playing defensively, he invested considerable resources into building up the Altantic wall and the Siegfried line. He made the same mistakes. The allies basically blitzkrieged the Germans on D-Day. They gave the Germans false intel that they were going to attack somewhere else, even as Hitler learned of the Normandy invasion he refused to move his forces to counter it believing it was a decoy for the real attack.

That's a penetration that hasn't quite reached my anal sphincter yet.
Why do Americans love my accent? It's just normal Bong.
Not cut glass James Bond stuff; just northern English.

Go read about German economy during WWII - how companies were literally stealing trains from another companies, what corrupt clusterfuck that was, and how this fucked everyone over.

Hitler lost his war in 1936. It was blind luck he managed to hold out until 1945.

Now that's just adorable.

By your retarded commie logic the Irish potato famine couldn't have happened either.

Paul Ballard claimed that Soviets were exporting 5 mil tonnes of grain every year. That is provably false.

How is this "retarded commie logic"?

They actually defended as good as they could. A war in the east was never something that Germany planned on it was more a reaction when they understood what Stalin was planning.

To think that the territory that Germany took in about 1 year from the soviets had to be taken back by them in 3 years even after the 6th army had perished in Stalingrad and with the casualties the russians had in that campaign was quite impressive work by the german defenders actually! Considering the lack of resources they had to deal with. It's incredible how long it stood against it's enemies on the several fronts it had to fight.

Hey girls, who want a ride on the nazi-mobile?

I've read several times that Stalin asked Hitler for the right to influence Finland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Iran, and Iraq. Hitler understandably didn't care too much for this proposal, and Operation Barbarossa began shortly after.
Kikepedia has a summary: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks

I can't help but think Stalin was playing a game here, trying to get as many concessions from Germany as possible, only to declare war from a better position granted by those concessions. On the other hand, maybe the Soviets were legitimately intimidated by the Tripartite, and sought to delay conflict by cooperating in the short term. Hitler assumed that the British were continuing to fight an apparently pointless war because they thought the Soviets or Americans would join in sooner or later, so he hoped knocking out the Soviets might compel them to accept peace. I guess what I'm wondering is, would creating the appearance of of a 4-nation Axis accomplish this without the risk attendant to invading Russia?

Perhaps the Soviets could have been lured into a war with Britain in Iran or somewhere thereabouts long enough to allow Germany some time to pursue technological developments make things like the Me262 and Stg44 standard.

Another possibility I've heard of was Germany somehow bringing Turkey into the Axis, or at least baiting them into a war with the Soviets or British. Basically, another Winter War scenario for the USSR, or another Ottoman Empire for the British to deal with. Was this ever a possibility? Then, there's Spain and Portugal… perhaps they could have helped secure Gibraltar from the British.

Did you even read Mein Kampf?

One word: Lebensraum.

do people larp as cucked brits now

Brits are cucked by definition.

The war in the East was definitely in the plans. They just didn't expect it to happen in 1941.

During 1940 German intelligence found out that the Soviets were building airfields near the German border in Poland. The Soviets also annexed the Baltic countries and were supporting the Yugoslavian government which opposed Germany. Hitler saw this and the plans for Barbarossa were made.

The "Germany vs. Europe" meme is a favorite tactic of a "certain group" of shills who for "SOME reason" want to turn Holla Forums opinion against all Germans (and are succeeding somewhat, since you can barely post any thread on half/pol/ discussing any German issue without multiple posters calling for German genocide).

I love how Holla Forums types respond to Holla Forums debunking the Holocaust by saying "I can do it too!" and simply ignoring the Soviet crimes of which there is far more real evidence.

Back in your hole. No-one who has ever dealt with communism wants anything to do with it.

pot calling the kettle black unless you're a slav m8

extremely insecure and uninformed user: leave.

Hitler was backstabbed on Barbarossa, the crux of everything falling apart in the end.

No man can rule alone…and Hitler was born into a world that had Anglos that love jews a bit too much.

I kinda agree with one part of the candians plan
a united Germany is a fucking mistake
I'm all for a seperate divided Germany though
like Bavaria or Prussia
failing that? divide it back into its original 16 federal states but make every state a seperate nation
Whenever Germany is united war comes to Europe it doesnt matter how
A united Germany is a precursor to a massive shitfest every time

There's something awfully suspicious about you…

Spain came close to joining the Axis, but Hitler wouldn't support Franco's pursuits in Morocco since he didn't wanna piss off Petain and push him back to British arms.

This whole thread is a leftypol raid

Prussia is dead. The World Wars destroyed what was once Prussia.

...

handled is a little different from are either economically or territorially threatened every time a united Germany is a thing
hell look before modern Germany founded in the 19th century the last time Germany was properly united was under Barbarossa
and he invaded France, Italy and the slavic territories under 'lebensbraum' again
a united Germany always means war in Europe


the culture is still there isnt it?

Daily reminder that Ostfriesland and Schleswig-Holstein are rightful Saxon clay and should be given back to the Low Saxon peoples, along with the entirety of the Wadden Sea Coast

cant have the goyim having their independence

my god are you all American?
Germany being unified or even being a thing is an artificial construct pushed on the people and on the land so they can get all the people to rally behind their flag/banner and wage war on everyone else
theres having independence and then theres united because a man in a sword tells you too and then spending the better part of a century standardizing your language, eliminating regional dialects and cultures to conform to a standard culture popularized by the elites that unified your new 'nation'


Dont know of that claim but defend it if you want

No, it isn't
Prussia's culture was war first and foremost. When the Werhmarcht was "denazified", it was purged of its Prussia roots and elements, because that was always the goal in that process. They didn't give two shits about the NatSocs themselves, not as it relates to the army anyway. They purged the field marshals and the officers because they knew it'd utterly destroy the fabric of the Reich. The army was where the Reich had survived WWI, and they wanted to finish the job.

...

The people of northern Netherlands, southern Denmark and Northern Germany once belonged to the same tribe. We need to restore the Low Saxon lands

does modern 'Germany' allow Prussian culture to exist or even undergo a revival?


I'd say they are proper if they've existed for longer than 200 years in a region
Germany hasnt existed for longer than 150 years in Europe, the Holy Roman Empire and all its petty states have been around for a lot longer and probably correspond better with regional German culture and heritage better than a modern construct de-nazified and pseudo-communist


restore Saxony as a land/nation? exactly

That is a huge misconstruing of how the unification of Germany happened.
Germany was united by jacobin nationalists, filthy scum of the Earth. But unlike France or the US that either fell or were birthed from that ignoble Enlightenment ideology of the "nation state", Germany was united by the will of Bismarck.

He knew he couldn't avoid a united Germany, so he created an empire of equals of the various German kingdoms, city states and duchies with the Prussian king as the ruler. He did this to both maintain the old order, as well as make Prussia the great power of continental Europe.

The united Germany as it first came to be was basically Prussia and friends. To say it was Prussia kicking everyone's ass during WWI and WWII is not entirely incorrect.

Sure, lets ignore 2 millennia worth of history and cultural and linguistic developments

you forgot

Sounds pretty good to me, anyone who disagrees is a self hating cuck

Germany wasn't united by jacobin nationalists*

This. Germany was essentially cut off from its usual sources of raw materials.
Turns out that you can't field a massive army equipped with cutting edge technology if you don't have any oil, steel or tires.

I would even go as far as to argue that they would've won if they had had enough resources.
From a purely technological standpoint, they were lightyears ahead.

that last parts similar to what Merkels after you thick headed yank
you pan-Europhiles will be the death of the continent


Yeah but without Bismarck at the helm it all went to shit pretty quick didnt it

Dutch is very close to German and the people in Ostfriesland speak Frisian

Special kind of retard, aren't you?


Neuken in de Keuken :DDD
But I have been wondering, how close is Dutch to Plattdeutsch?

I agree germany should be divided and weak like the tribes of old so we can more esily destroy them, my fellow(( Holla Forumsack))

It went to shit because there was no Prussian like Bismarck.

Internally, the German Empire thrived. The foreign policy is what did it in. But the inner workings where fine, it was united and yet allowed for regional differences.

This is just as fucking retarded as cuckservatives calling communists fascists because


Hitler liked Germany and the SS promoted European nationalism.
Merkel hates Germany and the EU wants to destroy Europe.

Not the same in the slightest.

Bismarck was a genius, but he wasn't infallible.
His disastrous internal policies, like the "Kulturkampf" and crackdown on the socialists is why Willy 2 axed him

Ultimately, it's the same thing. People don't like being ruled by those not their kin.
Hitler was a German. He put Germans first. As well he should, no harm in doing that, it's his job and duty. But any sort of union led by him and his Germany means Germans get put first.

Nederduits/Plattdeutsch is very close to Diets IIRC, which is the ancestor of modern Dutch. Frisian is also very close to Dutch, and spoken in German Friesland

Pic related is rightful Saxon clay

...

You may also include Gelderland or Utrecht in that map, but their ethnicities are not nearly as Saxon/Frisian as the rest
sage for double post

Cool, nice to know.

So why did Karl der Große aka Karl de Grote aka ""Charlemagne"" fight against Widukind?

He might as well have been.
His "crackdown" was absolutely necessary and perfectly executed. By establishing a social safety net that was robust and provided for the average German, he robbed the socialists of their base to ferment revolution. He essentially neutered them.

As for the kulturekampf, that was just him trying to fuck with the Poles as per usual.
Poles = Catholics
Hence, Catholics bad.

Subordinates under Berlin. Lets not be coy here.

Look, he's doing it again!

About half of Germany was catholic (especially Bavaria, Baden and the Rhinelands).
So yeah, fucking with them just because wasn't the smartest idea

Because Franks were christcucks who wanted to turn the Frisian and Saxon people to christianity. The southern states of Europe ( France, Burgundy and Spain ) have long tried to rule the more northern of the dutch and german lands due to our trade advantages ( for example the Hanse league ). Bitter wars have also been fought over religion, but eventually the Saxons and Frisians became "christian" as they kings converted. The same thing happened in pagan Norway. Many pagan folk traditions have however been retained here

More like one third. In population they weren't even 40% of the total, and that's counting the Poles.

Germany is Europe
Europe is Germany

They did and were continually astounded that they still had more tanks and men. The Russians still cover up the existence of failed counter offensives that costed them hundreds of thousands of men.

Operation Sealion, the invasion of Britain, would likely have failed (as it did in the wargames played between German and British military commanders after the war) even if the Germans won the Battle of Britain, which they didn't.

The British Isles are a natural defensive fortress and the Royal Navy was still too strong at this point for the Germans to have secured victory.

I agree that total victory was no longer really possible without some stunning victory, but they could have had a better end. A ceasefire with the Soviets would have ended the war in Europe. GB and US could have never hoped to invade without the war in the east raging.

This was unlikely to ever happen after what the Nazis did to the people in Eastern Europe, they could smell blood and were out for revenge by this point.

A ceasefire wouldn't have ended the war with US/UK either but it might have allowed Germany to negotiate better terms for surrender.


Not true at all, it would have increased their casualities significantly, but allied production and military capability far exceeded the Germans by this point. When you see what they did to places like Dresden, they could have done this potentially to every German city one by one.

After many years in Germany, I've determined that Germans believe the following things:

1. A diploma is necessary, and sufficient, to do any job.
2. As long as you can find someone to blame, the problem is solved.
3. If it isn't finished, it can't be wrong.
4. If you wait long enough, someone will do your job for you.
5. If you shit all over the things you love, nobody will steal them from you.
6. Never give 100%, or you'll never know how much you could have gotten away with.

Blame the Potsdam Agreement all you want, but this is really the rotten core of their culture that ensures they'll never be better than #2 at anything.

Yeah there was a lot of fraud along the chain of command that allowed Hitler to believe that things were going better that they were. Looking at individual engagements the Germans would think they killed 100 men, but the Russian records would show the killed like 12. They would also count knocked out tanks as being destroyed, which would be recovered are repaired later.

I like to read pic related to bluepills as a 'call your Mom, tell her you love her' thing. Don't tell them who said it.

I think this was perhaps more likely than we can imagine. Much of what we think of as "Russian Losses" weren't actually Russian. Russia itself hadn't lost much territory by the time of the battle of Kursk. Maybe if the Nazi's had agreed to withdraw back to eastern Poland the Russians would have leaped at the opportunity to walk away from the whole thing only missing some Armies.

*lept

everything and nothing means war in europe. the french are far more warlike than the germans. the scandis, especially denmark and sweden were basically constantly at war, the english warred with the scots and irish, the slavs warred among themselves and so on and on.
europe means war, germany is just one participant that gets shit on due to living in the middle of it all

Interesting, could you make a few examples?

Four words: traitors in the reich
These bastards of the old German aristocracy short sightedly betrayed their homeland. So when war plans and strategies were sent from the German Command, it was always leaked into the hands of the allies and the soviets, allowing no element of surprise. When materials needed to be sent by rail, should take a week or what ever normal amount of time, took months to reach the front lines. Which is why German men froze on the battle field in the first campaign, not because of Itlers ineptitude, but from subversion from within. These people where never caught and live to see Germany after the war, even though they were never promised by the allies since the allies didn't want to stop Hitler they wanted to stop GERMANY. WW2 was the systematic destruction of an entire civilization, from within and without. This is why I'm never in favor of the "ALL JEWS" policy because these short lived cucks were as German as ever and they abused that status and caused more harm than any kike could've.

Look the bastards up: Carl Goerdeler, Baron Von weizsacker, and Wilhelm Canaris.

Lebensraum was misappropriated allied propaganda to rile up the various Slavs in the East. Lebenraum was originally used to advocate for the return of the German African colonies which had been theirs for decades.

I'd seriously recommend you all read Richard Tedor's "Hitlers Revolution" it goes over German policy , the ideology and evolution of the SS, and the theatre show that was European politics at the time. It's sad to so much of Holla Forums rehashing the allied propoganda that Hitler didn't know what he was doing or what should of been done. Germany wasn't mislead, she was stabbed in the back.

The so-called "torch-men order" (Fackelmännerbefehl) is the command No. 0428, issued November 17th, 1941 by Stalin. It declares that Russian partisans in German uniforms, particularly those of the Waffen-SS, were to destroy all settlements within a swathe of about 40 - 60 km depth from the main battle lines and to ruthlessly kill the civilian population. With these tactics it was important to leave a few survivors, which would report the supposed German terror attacks. This method of warfare was also confirmed by German soldiers who captured many Russian partisans wearing German uniforms.

Fucking gommies man.

wow

OP, after the German offensives reached their furthest points, the war strategically devolved into material warfare. The allies combined force/supplies was simply greater, and for the remainder of the war it was a simple (and costly) matter of wearing the Germans down mile by mile.

This is laboring under the idea that the Soviets had any concern for the Russian people, or any of the peoples under the Soviet Union. The Soviet government, and especially the NKVD and state security apparatus, were almost entirely Jewish. 85% or so, according to my research, and to Putin's statement (ht tp://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.530857) The entire purpose of the Soviet Union and the Red Army were to conquer Europe in totality and create a Soviet super-state lead by the Jews. I can offer further reading on the topic if you would like, though much of it has (((never been translated to English))).


It's disheartening to have to rehash old ground, but only by constant struggle can the newfag be reforged into iron. For the rest of you, Hitler's Revolution is an excellent book and very worth reading. Here's a link. gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=A97A4CB4A88C7F019C62BE3F7D15921A

Because Churchill was bombing the fuck out of population centers and supply lines while ignoring every call to peace given to him. The only way to win would have been total destruction of the allies.

As I understand, the point of Blitzkrieging the USSR was to knock them out before they could prepare and unleash a massive invasion. I've never heard the of the sentiment that Germany could have successfully defended a full USSR attack.

not what I mean you insufferable white knighting cunts
if you want to see what Germany can do to strong arm Europe economically look no further than the Hanseatic League


It promoted German nationalism there is no European nationalism its a made up thing
pan-Europa is made up bullshit


what part of nationalism entails a French, British, Polish and Danish military forces subservient to a German one?


it gets shit on for good reason
when you describe the wars in England, Ireland and Scotland they're very much internal almost civil wars
same with Scandinavia and to a lesser degree the slavs
You're right about France though but they havent been much of a threat to anybody since Napoleon III declared war on the German states and lost in 2 weeks

...

where have I said that?
apart from kike/italian half-breed Lombards in Venice I've never seen merchants wage wars and destroy kingdoms for profit margins besides the hansa
when they gain the slightest hint of power they monopolise it

except you said yourself further up how europe felt economically "threatened" by germany and thus had to destroy it

Also Genoa.

As they should
You know the Hanseatic League once destroyed half of Denmark in a war where the Hansa wanted 15% of all the profits of Danish trade?


forgot about them I'm always getting them mixed up with Savoy

...

I meant 'they should feel economically threatened'

What do you guys think about 2nd pic photos? I read somewhere that people (holocaust deniers) made the shops just to claim it was soviet psyops. And basically just said "hey look here at what the soviets are covering up" when they altered the picture themselves.

These threars just depress me. Theres so many little what ifs, that if things were done just a little differently, the reich would have won or been able to armistice.

I know I'm late to the thread, but what could have Germany done differently in terms of war technology? They were ages ahead of everyone else; their tanks were stronger, they had developed jet-powered planes, assault rifles, and wonders like the Schwerer Gustav.

Would it have been better for Germany to mass-produce smaller war machines on a larger scale? Instead of going for wonder-weapons like they did at the end of the war, would it have been more efficient to build worse tanks, worse planes, and worse guns- but on a significantly larger scale?

On the contrary, would things have been better on the German behalf if all resources were allocated to these wonder weapons?

The thing to keep in mind with this is: why would someone deny the Holocaust unless they believe it to be untrue? There is no social, financial, or other advantage to be held by denying the holocaust. It is a poor means of gaining political power. Nobody will pay you to deny the Holocaust. We're about the most hated part of society down here.

The Soviets, on the other hand, had a massive, totalitarian government with a very active psychological warfare branch. They had the means, and they also had the motive. We know that they blamed the Katynn massacre on Hitler, but after the wall fell the truth of this came out. It is also less well known but essentially proven that the mass grave at Baba Yar is not filled with Jews but with victims of NKVD purges, and the same is true of other "Massacres of Jews" around Ukraine.

In short, one group has a motive to lie for power, and the other group's only possible motive is sincere belief in their position. The group that has motive to lie for power has already been caught lying many times.

P.S. My ID may have changed because my VPN screwed up, I'm 058b6b

Holla Forums purged all of the pictures on that last post.

Although there may not be any financial or social benefits to photoshopping these pictures to make the Soviets seem like they made it all up, there is still the ideological motivation. What I would be interested in seeing is whether the photoshopped variant of the photos have ever been published

Did they put Dumb in the water?

He didn't need to see anything in 1940. Hitler had signed a NAP with Soviets in 1939 that specifically put Baltics into Soviet sphere of influence.

Yes. I know what I'm talking about, unlike the majority of morons here who might've read a few articles by some nutjobs.

I can understand people claiming that USSR would've attacked in 1944 or 1943, maybe even 1942. But not in 1941, two weeks before Hitler! The army is unprepared, undersupplied, and untrained army. It doesn't have any logistics: Soviets will be buying hundreds of thousands of HORSES from Mongolia come winter of 1941, just to haul stuff from point A to point B within their own territory.

What invasion are we even talking about here? What preparations? Even T-34 numbers are within a few hundred. Red Army only begun modernizing in 1941. It was caught with pants down.

The whole WWII is a Holla Forums raid, you dumbfuck.

Even Hitler tried to go Planned by the middle of war, but it was too little, too late. What kind of moron would pretend that it was not the economy that won the war?

holohoax.nu/videos/

Correction… holohoax.nu/category/videos/

Generally, fighting everyone at the same time is a bad idea.

what kind of idiot wrote this shit?


[citation needed]
;^)

They should've fixed their shit production system, doesn't matter how tacticool and advanced your shit is if you can't make enough of it.

The magnificent success of the USSR is why the US sent them 11.3 billion of lend-lease, or about $150 billion in modern dollars. This is more than the US has even given to Israel. You could make the case that the American economy won the war, though conveniently the Americans weren't being bombed. Trying to claim that the Soviet economy was more efficient than the National Socialist economy is tautologically stupid. The Soviets won by sheer brutalization of their population, nothing more.

Funny, little shill, how you don't try to address the torchman order I posted above, of how your beloved soviets were burning down Ukrainian villages to try to make the people hate the Germans.

Just google it, retard.There are hundreds of cases

Ceasefire could've been possible after defeat under Moscow. By the time Stalingrad ended, Russia would stop at nothing short of hanging Hitler by the balls.

That's not how it works. Soviet Nationalism was a thing. Moreover, both Belarus and Ukraine separated from Russia relatively recently. They are like Austria and Germany, if not closer.

>The so-called "torch-men order" (Fackelmännerbefehl) is the command No. 0428, issued November 17th, 1941 by Stalin. It declares that Russian partisans in German uniforms, particularly those of the Waffen-SS, were to destroy all settlements within a swathe of about 40 - 60 km depth from the main battle lines and to ruthlessly kill the civilian population.
No, it doesn't.

Original doesn't mention German uniforms, nor killing civilian population - the order is to protect population from Germans and to burn down houses Germans use.

I think he is talking about Dunkirk. Some nice carpet bombing and more than 300.000 British soldiers would have died, way before the invasion of Britain

On the subject of tanks, I'd say they should have arrived at a fast, big-gun sloped-armoured tank like the Panther earlier or even better the easier to produce E-50, and have focused less on -if not scrapped- the Tiger I & II. Furthermore they shouldn't have used time or resources on the Maus or other "superheavy" pipedreams.

In terms of airplanes, if they had focused more on naval and port bombing (to smash convoy ships and starve the Brits of resources) in the battle of England, they wouldn't have needed to change a single thing about their arsenal because they were superior as fuck their tactics and strategy just sucked balls.

Wonder weapons is a much broader concept. Things like the V rockets were both effective and provided insights in tech that was used in other fields and thus were indispensable, while oversized stupidity like the Schwerer Gustav was just plain silly and a waste of effort. It is so much a case-by-case evaluation that its impossible to say wonder weapons was a good or a bad idea.

But no matter what, they should have been better at streamlining production of equipment as so tastefully pointed out.

The biggest mistake of WW2 was some white wetern countries not wanting to be axis.

No matter what Hitler had done, unless not fucking with jews at all, defeating the entire purpose of combating marxism, he could not have won fighting against continent sized countries.

And three times more to UK. Why didn't England win the war then?

Not to mention, Soviets were sending supplies to both UK and US themselves. For example, how much did 100 thousand Soviet rifles for England in 1941 cost? Nobody knows. Never happened. 1984-style non-event.

Israel did not wipe out Kwantung army, saving US billions of dollars for waging war all across China. Israel did not have tanks out of wazoo all across Europe in 1945 with possible intent of not stopping at Berlin but going all the way to Lisbon.

I thought I did. And it is you, who is shilling neo-liberal economics as the panacea of world ills. But everyone started using Planned economy during war, even if you claim that only USSR did.

Are you from Ukraine or what? I'm not sure where this butthurt comes from.

except the ukrainians hate the russians despite how close they are connected. understandably so

The reason Germans could not defend is because they expended their best forces by Stalingrad. Kursk shouldn't have happened, and those divisions needed to be pulled back to Berlin.

Hitler was exceptional at a lot of things, but military command wasn't one of them.


Stalin had several of his hardiest, toughest armies in eastern Siberia, awaiting an offensive by the Japs that never came. When he knew this, Stalin relocated those forces to Stalingrad, turning the tide against Germany.

The order specifically speaks about using "highly politically sensitive" individuals to burn down villages "with aircraft, artillery, molotovs, grenades, and ammunition". Meanwhile, you have stories of the "Evil Nazis" burning down all of these villages, bombing them, etc and murdering and raping civilians. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to put 1+1 together.

No, I was saying if you are going to claim that economics won the war, that the American economy is the one that did it. Quit being disingenuous.

I have family from Ukraine and have spent time there. That is why I know so much about the Soviet crimes, because I have spoken to eyewitnesses, who had much less to gain by lying than the "holocaust survivors" do. I also can read the source material myself in Russian.


Blaming Russians for the Soviets is like blaming Americans for their foreign policy. Jews ran the USSR, not Russians, and the Russians stuck under it didn't have much choice but to go along or get sent off to die.

just the state of technology at the time, similar to how ww1 defenses were extremely hard to break, ww2 assaults were extremely hard to defend against. it was just a serious of massive offensives

short answer: because hitler was retarded. he only knew forward. damn shame.
if wouldn't have been so deluded to use "un-german" tactics, things would never gotten that bad.
in the end he fell for the propaganda of his ilk and believed itself.
pity. no armageddon and no jews. way better.
too late now….

Is that why the Soviets knew about Citadel?

And there we have a confirmation of you being a liar.

Either you can't read Russian and lie about being able to, or you deliberately lie to people, while knowing your words to be false.

The scans of the order you posted are the scans of the original order and it explicitly contradicts your English "translation". If you could read Russian, you'd knew it.

For example, here: forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=220340


No. It takes a moron.

First and foremost, you were quoting an explicit fake order (IIRC popularized by Batshev) that got notoriety some time ago (see above).
Secondly, we have witnesses of the process of "burning down" by Soviet partisans.

For example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Kosmodemyanskaya
At no point does anyone mention use of German uniforms.

It is you who is disingenuous. Impact of American Lend-Lease not being deciding factor does not make economies of the nations irrelevant.

Because nobody wins on defense?


These discussions boil down to 2 things. The idea that Germany needed huge bombers and no remorse.

And Germany went long strategic defense and has now usurped their enemies by 4th Reich chess.

It's pretty much why the German lost as a whole. Those aristocraticucks throwed millions of Germans soldiers under the bus in the hope of keeping their places instead of earning them.

The funniest thing is when they tried to take but power after they thought Hitler was dead.Most of the soldiers simply told them to fuck off and only managed to get a few to follow them with lies.

Holy shit the level of this board sometimes.

Сначала ты признал, что коммунисты сжигали свои же деревни и убивали своих же людей, и даже нашел какого-то свидетеля, а сразу после (следуя какой-то особенной советской логике) ты начал снова отнекиваться и говорить, что все ложь, всего этого не было. М-да, уровень чисто коммунистического аутизма у тебя просто зашкаливает, товарищ Пидор. Да, и еще - как бы тебе и остальным уебкам этого не хотелось, СССР уже никогда не возвратится.

To the rest of you, yes, the order does not specify "Wear German uniforms lol", just "Go burn down villages and kill people, P.S. it's helpful if you only use highly political people." As you'll notice, this communist faggot completely agrees that the Soviets were burning their own villages and massacring their own people, and that the Germans were trying to stop them, he's just trying to contend whether or not they were doing it in captured German uniforms. He even proves for me that their partizans were burning down the villages by linking to said partizan. Here's a kike talking about his Grandpa pretending to be a Nazi so he could carry out partizan war. ht tp://972mag.com/jabob-ingerman-and-the-reich-army/97011/ Here's another Jewish source talking about how highly prized a German uniform was: ht tp://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/partisan1.html

Precisely, the whole plan was to drag out the war as long as possible so the German people would then turn against the NSDAP, which of course never happened.

TRS detected.

And I'm guessing Adolf figured the plan would work (and it would have) IF the Soviets didn't know it was coming, and he didn't know that they knew that it was coming

> just "Go burn down villages and kill people,
Russian Liar, stop lying.

There is nothing about killing people.
There is nothing about wearing German uniform.
It's about burning down places where Germans were staying. Nothing more, nothing less.

The goddamn thing was translated from Russian and analysed long ago.

P.s. I assume you are experiencing some sort of delusion that your non-English text is imbued by some great magic power. It isn't.

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Anons, answer me this

Why did Hitler Invade Russia if he knew the Russian Winter would probably catch up with his troops just like they did with Napoleons a hundred years prior?

In video related
, the only approved source of Hitler speaking in a non-formal setting he discuses this, so he knew that was likely to happen and he still ordered it anyway, why?

he had to delay the assault into russia to help mussolini in yugoslavia.

if it werent for italian incompetence we would all be speaking german

Because Russia was preparing for the invasion of Europe with an absolute mad war industry. So the idea was to strike first and fast (blitzkrieg) and defeat them before they have formed to their full strength.

Thank you user, could you please provide a non pozzed source I'll very matter like to read into the matter.

Also, why the hell didn't he just consolidate his lines and wait out the winter, wouldn't this allow his logistics supply lines to thicken? Because during Operation Barbarossa his supply lines were thin as fuck and where eventually cut off as a result latter on in the war, why didn't he just wait out the winter and then attack?

why couldn't Italians get stronk again?

unfortunately i learned everything i know about hitler from Holla Forums, but its even on the wikipedia page

Ok I get this but as History has taught us, they advanced too far into the interior of Russia and were fucked by mother nature. Couldn't they plan a strategic retreat and let their supply lines thicken?
Then afterwards let say the motherfucking Russians attack they could hold the line and would be properly reinforced and supplied.

War is all about logistics, speed means nothing if you have no stamina, the Blitz failed

"Для уничтожения населенных пунктов в указанном радиусе действия бросить немедленно авиацию, широко использовать артиллерийский и минометный огонь, команды разведчиков, лижников и партазанские диверсионные группы, снабженние бутилками с зажигательной смесъю, гранатами и подрывными средствами. "
In order to destroy the settlements in the specified range, immediately employ aviation, make an extensive use of artillery and mortar fire, team scouts, skiers, and partisan sabotage groups, equipped with Molotov cocktails, grenades, and ammunition.

Yeah, using artillery and mortar fire against civilians isn't trying to kill anyone.

Probably because in WW1 the German Empire invaded Russia and absolutely destroyed it.

Hitler probably figured they could do it again, and arguably they would have succeeded if America wasn't propping up their Communist tools with all those supplies.


Mussolini failed to purge the monarchist/aristocratic elements from Italian society and they did everything they could to lose. The vast majority if not the entirety of a nation's nobility need to be purged from power or altogether killed if the nation is to prosper; with rare exceptions - such as Edward VIII - they will oppose fascism wholeheartedly and use their position to sabotage it in the hopes of regaining their power.

Reactionaries/tradcons/etc are not our friends, and they are not our allies. They are an enemy within.

Fascism looks to the future, not the past.

I'm not the one using jewishlibrary as a source.

Hitler's master plan was to defeat Bolshevik hordes by November, before winter begins. Which he did, btw. I'm annoyed people always ignore this bit.

He got stuck fighting Russians during winter only because Soviets managed to crank out second Red Army that didn't even exist when the war begun.

I assume planes were ordered to wear German uniform and rape population.

Go away, Russian Liar (or are you Jewish?).

German soldiers raping civilians where punished pretty fucking hard, maybe even shot to death.
Where the soviet 2nd line troops (untermenschen and asian pieces of shit where pumped up by the jewish commissars to rape every living thing) the Russian 1st line troops where white slavic Christian Russians and other European peoples.
Russian soldiers warned the German civilians lots of times to run and hide away as fast as they could.

wut

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No-one left for the planes to rape once your Heroes of the Soviet Union got done murdering everyone.

*in the history of the world

According to David Irwing the Germans found that the conditions in Russia didn't permit an invasion until mid June anyways, because of the wet ground from the spring-thaw.

The traitors also gave the High German command bogus info on the capabilities of the Red Army, incompetently shipped useless supplies, disobeyed orders and then blamed Hitler for the blunder, the list goes on and on.

Getting rid of the Jewish commissars in the East means a complete German hegemony (or a union of free European states as Himmler and the SS had hoped for) in Eastern Europe, consolidating the Third Reich and ending the war.

The plan would have worked if the soldiers had had their necessities delivered on time. A better plan would've been devised if the statistics of the Red Army's strength wasn't intentionally underestimated. The Soviets would have trembled with fear at the invading forces if they weren't leaked the fucking war plans weeks in advanced. All this could’ve been if Hitler had purged the old German aristocracy from holding High levels of command. But no, the man was too good to his people, even the worst of them.
Here are a ton of quotes from Tedor’s book describing the many accounts of this bullshit. If you aren’t fucking seething with rage over the actions of these TRAITORS, then you’re a spook.

Here are the rest

Look at the size of Germany on a map, and compare that to the United States, the Soviet Union, and the British Empire (at the time). They did remarkably well for having not even a 10th of those other country's resources.

At no point during WWII did the Axis have a larger industrial output than either the Communists or the Allies.

Artillery. Both the Americans and Russians were artillery whores. Every time the Germans set up a defensive position they'd just get artillery rained on them. German strength was armor, and they needed to be on the offensive to use it effectively.

Comparisons to 1812 are incorrect, the nature of the fighting was very different and Napoleon sacked Moscow anyway.

They knew about it from double agents. That information was what allowed them to build up their defence-in-depth lines and it would have surely went differently without them.
Manstein is right on many points in retrospect (a breakthrough into the Russian rear was just one defensive line away in a few cases) but he didn't know just how massive their reserves were.

Dude live and let live lmao
t. Stalin

Yes it's called rasputitsa.

This thread was solved with this post

Now it's a Russian shit talking fest. Russians are traitors to themselves and can't get over it.

Ever read Hitler's Revolution? It seems to be the account that makes more sense then most others as to why Germany lost.
Basically-
Most of Hitlers actual strategies would have worked had it not been for monarchists.

Where did you get this? I am not seeing these in my book at all. None of these are right, at all. Unless I have a different edition, but I do not think the book has different editions.

Proper page numbers would be much appreciated, if you know them.

The pages are not labelled in my pdf explicitly so i used the page number of the acrobat file. Here, is the pdf i used golibgen.io/view.php?id=1352866

Germany had to keep the offensive going. The Allies were massing forces in Britain in preparation of an invasion into Europe. A two front war couldn't be won.

It was over as soon as Germany and the USSR were at war. Germany just didn't have the numbers or logistical capability to win an invasion into Russia. Germany's only chance of winning that war was Operation Sea Lion immediately after the Battle of France in an all or nothing invasion.

Dunkirk was a mistake, Hitler ordered a halt on the britcuck butchering, hoping the eternal anglo would hear a superior call of europa and how did the eternal anglo face it?

they lie and slobber jewish hands. Dunkirk was a mistake.

Because their objective was never to win for Germany, it was to create Israel and ensure the "muh holocaust" meme would live on while simultaneously killing the concept of eugenics in the public mind at its peak. They won.

I think you're confusing amusement with love. The laughter is at you, not with you. Stupid worthless Brit, you were our original enemy and you will be our enemy again.

The whole Eastern Front was a horrid idea from the very start. (Yes, I'm aware of all that Suvorov-type shit, I don't buy it: if the Russians wanted to invade Germany they would've been doing so alone, so if anything by declaring first Hitler was playing right into Stalin's hands).

That said, if they'd seized Moscow instead of fucking about when they were barely 10km away from the city centre things might have still went very differently.

A much over looked aspect about the Eastern Theatre is that the German war machine lost to much manpower during the otherwise succesfull Blitzkrieg, to really have the chance to later change tactic effectively.

Most of the German deaths where not disclosed to the families before the battle of Stalingrad had passed, but later recounts of these deaths showed that the bulge of them had happenned during the offensives of 41 and 42. Around 1 - 1.5 million German servicemen where killed during the initial year of advance. For scale only 300.000 where killed, mamed or captured at Stalingraf. Why where there so many deaths during the military success? Because of the sumeric executions of all ranking soviet party officials and most of their officers. In the Western theatre the Germans faced opponents who knew that they had the possibility of surrender without the loss of life. On the Eastern front, only privates in the Soviet army had that opportunity, and only if the sircumstances where favorable. After the first 100.000s of Soviet POVs died of starvation in camps, not many privates believed in surrendering either. This in tern let to fierce resistanse in all encounters, and levels of insurgency which the Germans didn't find anywhere else. If your sector was run over, partisan activity was the only option left for most soviet soldiers. Leaving the Germans with the most volatile land in the whole Reich.

During the German advance, the Germans experienced Soviet suicide tanks, filled with heavy artillery grenades, ramming into troup formations en-route. Stuff you simply didn't see on the Western front, officers could just surrender instead. Ypu might be succesfull with your inserclement, but if you leave your enemy no alternative to fighting to the last drop of blood, the last km2s are gonna be really expensive.

Why where the deaths not dislosed? During 41 & 42, the Werhmacht still hoped that it could be postphoned to after the final victory. Thus avoiding the deaths impacting on morale and the general war effort. After Stalingrad that became futile and the deaths where disclosed. But in the secondarily most meaningfull manner, as having happenned around the turning points of either Stalingrad, Kursk or the general retreat. It would simply have been to demotivational for the general pubilc to know that most of their lost sons where killed optaining clay which where in the process of being lost again. Better to leave the impression that they died in a final heroic act to prevent the tides from turning.


Hitler asserted dirrect command over the German war machine after the turning point in the east. Hitler was a politician, not a general. He simply refused to switch to large scale defensive warfare and instead tried feverisly to apply offensive strategies where it wasnt possible. The logical conclussion to a failed offensive strategy is always retreat. As such, not much else happenned after Stalingrad. Kursk was no less an attempt at German offense than the original thrust into the Soviet Union. Hitler still insisted on producing heavy offensive armour after the original German borders where breached. The production cost of each of the German super-tanks, of the late war, could instead have produced large quanteties of artillery and anti-air defense which could have halted advances on all fronts. Instead Hitler chose extremely pricy offensive armour, which could only stall the enemy advances for short periods of time, as they lacked all the necessary air and ground support to render them effective as the offensive weapons they really where.

The generals of the Wehrmacht where in no position to mend this, as Hitlers initial victories had enabled him to purge potential critics from the state.

Ah, that makes much more sense now, thank you user.

That sounds so absurd, I don't understand it at all.

Many previously said that Fascism was inevitably monarchic on nature, as you are going to need some hereditary power to rise as reich, unless you dissolute the whole reich into democracy. Not to mention the 3rd reich was particular to previous aristocrats, Hitler's second in power was a blue blood hiimself.

The brilliant Wittman, the most commended tank ace, is accused of overshadowing his [also good] gunner and receiving a medal for having blue blood.

seeing the Reich as monarchic in nature, makes it really hard to understand where are you coming from.


The Habsburgs were jewish puppets, the aristocracy sold germany back on the weimar republic.So again I see as jews the ultimate problem. NatSocs can't become enemies to monarchists more than they can start making enemies of fascists.

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Because sauron is a hell of a beast.

(((Monarchists)))

As if that wasn't enough:

War and Germany were forever lost right there.
They could have at least waited with mass Slavicide until USSR was done for by the very hands of USSR people. Oh well, got dizzy with success and only won reverse-genocide for Germans.
Seriously, millions of POWs murdered or enslaved to death, instead of, you know, arming them against Stalin they so urged to protect in first months of the war.

Low production, they were too autistic about the quality of their workmanship and lost to the high output of their enemies. Allies would stop and collect German rifles because they were worth more than 10 m1's or mosins.

The obvious answer to your question is manpower, you spend all your time turtling and teching with protoss and you get zerged or terran bunkered in. You have once chance, and that is to spread quickly and overpower your enemy before their brute numbers crush your superior arms.

I repeat.

Hitler could have done anything short of inventing an orbital station that targeted allied troops all over the world and he wouldn't have won.

There is NOTHING he could have done to win with the good goy golems fighting against Germany.

The problem is not Germany, it's all western countries that didn't go axis that were the problem.
It's as simple as that.

It really is.

Which makes me worry about germany and sweden.

Quality D&C post.

No i agree, that's probably partially why german jews are asshats.

It's all or nothing. Sado or maso.
No room to breathe and be reasonable.

Ignorant. Step your game up, that is common knowledge among WW2 buffs nowadays.


Bullshit. That mentality weas already outdated in 1916/17. Hutier/storm trooper tractics and flexible defense was a thing then already.


This. "De-nazification" was in fact de-prussification. The old Prussian spirit survived for a long time in the GDR, though, that's why the NVA (the East Germans) would have wiped the floor 1:1 with the Bundeswehr.


Wrong, they lost 30 million people, which has huge repercussions until today. Russia was bled dry, and never fully recovered.

(check)
This, 100%. Russia was and is hyper-centralized, then and also today. That's why the Ruskies are so paranoid of nukes - losing Moscow basically means losing the European part of the empire.

You always have to differentiate between what a person says publicly (especially in the military, and especially in the SU) and what he thinks privately.

You can shove your "common knowledge" where the sun doesn't shine. It's a fact that Soviets were not capable of invading Germany in July of 1941 and there is no evidence of invasion being in the works.

As I had already said:
1943 or 1944 are reasonable (even if retarded) estimates
1942 is too early.
1941 is bullshit.

that is fanfic. I like reading on Hitler as a human average joe character and all but he has his own book for that y'know.

.

resources

Because he wasted untold amounts of resources on russia like a fucking noob.

Do you have proof? Genuinely curious as I know very little about the East German army during commie times.
I know the Bundeswehr is a completely artificial entity that does not allow any Prussian doctrines or culture, and hence is fundamentally doomed to fail in any real encounter. The most they did was allow guys like Guderian and Manstein to provide input, and even then the west German government heavily restricted what they could do for them.

But as far as the NVA, I am not aware. I would figure the commies would crush any kind of Prussian mentality, as it is inherently monarchic and traditionalist. But then again Stalin was a crazy cunt with weird bedfellows.