Isn't class just a Spook? Isn't looking at the world and the entire human race solely from a materialist perspective shallow and intellectual dishonest?
Why should be people be divided by wealth rather than real genetic ties that exist outside of human perception and bias?
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Pants on head retarded
Not an argument
What in Stirnerite egoism can justify racism as an ideology?
funposting is fun
It takes thoughts and actions to divide them by that concept of reason for division. People are not naturally divided in a shared world and dimensional plane so that is a spook..
Spook is just a funposting word for when an idea has subjected you to itself, it basically means fixed idea, to *be* spooked. The object of what is a spook isn't so important as the matter of fact of *being* spooked.
But to answer your question, no. How can class, which is defined by material relations, be a a fixed *idea*? You may as well say the computer I am typing this on is a spook.
Yes, become a dialectical idealist today!
How is arbitrarty genetic ties that are impossible to measure accurately and rely entierly on your perception on the issue more real and free from perceptive bias than your relation to the things you produce?
How is arbitrarty genetic ties that are impossible to measure accurately and rely entierly on your perception on the issue more real and free from perceptive bias than your relation to the things you produce?
Isn't it intellectually dishonest to propose a higher form of logic or understanding outside of classical German materialism, particularly when you don't even attempt to offer genuine criticism?
People are divided by wealth because social relations are divided by man's relationship to his own labour. It's the historical process which exists outside of perception and bias, the cold and long march human, spurred by resources and societal contradictions.
What's a class? Show me a class, I don't want to be killed by things that cannot be shown.
Doing racist things please the egoist?
You can interact with your computer.
Now show me how you interact with the class.
Class is based on your relation to the means of production, not how much money you have.
A Capitalist owns the means, a proletariat works with the means. You can move from one class to the other by shifting your relations. You can have rich workers and poor owners.
This is part of why Holla Forums doesn't understand communism, why they equate it to liberalism and wealth distribution, and why they also don't understand capitalism or fascism.
Methodological individualism is a spook. Classes are concepts that correspond to real life-things. The former basically can't explain how groups act or that groups exist at all.
Explain how it's a fixed idea.
you can't
It stops being real when people stop believing in it.
That misinterprets Stirner as some kind of hedonist or Epicurean, aka following pleasure as a guide, "good" as pleasure. His critique of spooks is that you give yourself to a fixed idea and forget yourself, aka being a racist and being obsessed with genetics.
How?
Do my relations to production suddenly change if I stop believing it?
It would stop existing altogether if you stop believing in it.
Relationship is the immaterial.
So basically, an egoist can't even do things to please himself.
And an egoist cannot be a racist?
Okay, if you leave a room and don't look at it anymore, is it still there when you aren't looking? Serious question.
The room exists.
Your relationship to anything is literally the immaterial.
If people stop believing in it, it wouldn't exist.
So the capitalist would simply vanish from the material plane?
Great, let's all close our eyes and maybe communism will show up.
Indeed, if no one believe them to be capitalists.
Capitalists are after all, a social construct.
youre not making any sense. If you dont own a business but you believe that you do, that doesn't actually change your social class. You're just deluded.
How many people do you need to deny the room exists for it not to exist? All of humanity or just one person? Did gravity exist before humanity called it gravity
He can do things to please himself but not because pleasure is a good but because he affirms himself. He can't be a racist because that places the idea of race before himself.
The fact you think you own a business is literally an immaterial feeling.
If the people stop believing that you own a business and you would stop owning that business for real.
You are not entitled to jackshit if people stop believing in you having any right to be entitled to jackshit.
The concept of classes are obviously not physically real, but they correspond to an actually existing phenomenon. It's like saying different fruits or types of cars are a social construct.
You can't deny that the room exists because it exists.
People can deny your relationship to anything.
There's nothing good or bad about it, being racist pleases the egoist.
What? Or he is just a racist.
Apparently, you can't be racist egoist.
No, cars and fruits exist on themselves.
Classes rely on beliefs in order for people to acknowledge them.
If people stop believing in classes, it wouldn't exist.
In the Marxian sense "social constructs" can be real in reality. Marxists think reality exists.
It doesn't matter.
They still exist whether you call them something else.
Actually existing social constructs are not the same as a fixed idea, bucko.
So Marxist shit doesn't fit with Stirnerite.
Because if social constructs are real, so are spooks.
Not really, they would stop existing altogether if you stop believing in them.
Social constructs do not exist, people just believe in them.
Send me a capitalist by mail.
Yeah you could, but you'd be subjectively wrong. Objectively the room exists.
Stirner is not a modern Randian egoist and doesn't focus on pleasure.
It's impossible to take the Stirnerite position and be a racist, yes.
Marx wrote a gigantic book called the German Ideology debunking Stirner. Marxists (including me) dislike Stirner but we don't think he's a racist. Yeah, in the Marxian view a class can exist in reality because they are not trapped in their mind like Stirnerite egoists are.
The room objectively exists because you can touch it, sense, interact with it.
Stirner only consists of doing things to please the egoist, nothing else matters.
Why? An egoist does thing to please himself, if doing racist can please the ego, one can be a racist egoist.
Then you are better discussing Marxist feel real in a Marxist thread?
So where would all the people who own the means of production go?
Implemented social constructs do exist.
The fixed idea they cling to is an entirely different matter.
Nowhere, they would just be humans.
No, they do not, people just believe them to exist.
Like class?
I must wonder if anyone on Holla Forums actually understands what a spook is (let alone the rest of what Stirner talks about) because, while Holla Forums of course doesn't, this thread isn't a good indication that Holla Forums is capable of defending the concept, much less advocating its use.
A 'spook' is not whatever you don't want to believe in. It's a societal conceptualization that people surrender their mental faculties to, instead of engaging in critical philosophical thought. That's all it is and will ever be.
Exactly what's wrong with Marxism in two sentences. Calling an overly long collection of neo-Feuerbachian shitposts against Stirner a 'debunking' is a joke that will never tire in its humor.
Consult Descartes and Berkeley and tell me if you still believe this view of yours to be tenable.
Yeah, so a class exists because that's the way they touch, sense, and interact with production.
Read Stirner.
Giving yourself up to a fake idea and deriving pleasure from it makes you fall into the "fake egoist" or whatever Stirner calls it. Read Stirner.
You have such a basic misconception of Stirner that even silly Marxists like me can debunk your point. See and my posts for our sectarianism over Stirner.
Goddamn fucking Marx-cucks and their religious hero-worshipping. Fucking end yourselves you cockroaches.
So I must get some books in order to believe things that you can't interact with exist.
Nah, I can just get the bible.
Racism implies subjecting yourself to a race simply because it is one you identify as.
It's "the bending of the knee" as Stirner calls it; It's something based forehead man was completely against.
I have read Stirner. Just because I don't agree with your philosophy doesn't mean I don't have the capacity to read or form thought bro.
You're missing the point. There's a diffirence between not respecting the legitimacy of social classes and saying they don't exist. The emprirical reality is that there is a number of people that own private property as a legal right and a number of people that don't. This is actually true whether or not you think it's a legitimate right to property, or justified, or that you can actually "own" anything in the strict sense.
Other theories of classes are maybe more easier to grasp. Like if you make between 45k and 200k (or around there), we can label that as middle class; if you make more than that, upper class. This concept corresponds to a real life phenomenon of making a certain amount of money and there might be a lot of reasons why people would choose specific amounts of incomes for labeling classes; it's also a concept that people chose to attach to a real world thing. But to say that the group itself doesn't exist seems obviously wrong.
So you can touch, sense and interact with class?
What? Fake idea? Fake egoist? So basically to be an egoist, I must submit myself to "true ideas" as defined by yours truly? Very spooky.
You haven't debunked shit.
Al you are saying is that if you are racist, you are a fake egoist, which makes no fucking sense.
...
I bend the knees because I'm a racist.
No, this does not make sense, you do not bend the knees when you are a racist, you literally derive pleasures in shitting on other races.
Class is the way you interact with production, so you touch and interact in a way that identifies you as a member of one class or another.
Stirner calls people who give up themselves to spooks as fake egoists. Read Stirner before outing yourself.
Read Stirner.
I do not miss any points.
Laws, legal rights, all of these are social constructs, and they would be real as soon as people stop believing in them.
The lower class and upper class only exist because you believe having more money means you are different than someone having lesser money, you are just humans, dude.
They gave up the means of production then?
If I believe you don't exist, will you disappear?
Better yet, if I believe death doesn't exist, can I riddle your body with bullets please?
Still waiting for you to explain how it's a fixed idea, so no.
Eat my penis matey
matey
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MATE
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Post a video where you touch a class, please do.
Myself is a racist, if I deny my racist ego, then I'm not an egoist.
What?
Ever exchanged your labor for money or seen someone work at a fast food joint?
That's not what Stirner means by ego.
Read Stirner, he doesn't give a fuck about pleasure in the hedonist sense.
Empiricism is a dogma.
What is the means of production? A social construct, that stops exist as soon as you stop believe in them.
No because I exist and you can touch and interact with me.
You certainly can, and I would too riddle your body with bullets, cuz you actually exist and I can kill you.
It's a social construct that exists in an arbitrary way?
So you the spook owns you then.
Thanks for confirming
That's still not the same as egoism, fam.
I'm starting to doubt you've read the book.
That's just someone working on a fast food joint, that's not interacting with your class.
I define my own ego.
So basically, I have to do the things you approve of to be a true egoist.
I don't give a shit about what you say.
It doesn't own me since more than I own it, it's my ego, and it's racist.
An egoist only does thing because it pleases his ego. Nothing else matters.
And?
Get back to me until you can show me your God.
That's acting in a certain way to produce a product in a certain way that gets distributed a certain way. "Class" just refers to that, we don't think that that a gigantic statue called "class" exists and we have to see it to believe it exists.
Not if you give yourself over to spooks like a false egoist.
You have to do things Stirner agrees with to be a Stirnerite egoist.
Well that's good because Stirner is the one who disagrees with you, not me. Read Stirner.
So tools and factories don't exist then?
No you don't. "You" is just a social construct :^)
No I don't. I don't believe I exist.
We've been through why that's not what a spook is.
seems pretty specific to me.
define "interact" and why it has any bearing on whether something is a spook
Youre not making any sense.
If everybody stopped believing in the capitalist class – as in, they view it in the same way we view Santa Claus.
Does that mean that capitalists themselves don't believe in their own legal ownership of property?
Oh, you're retarted.
Not really, it's just a man working in a burger joint. You are attaching your values into it.
I don't give in to racism, because I am racist.
So basically, Stirner is my master. No fuck that, an egoist has his own ego. I can think for myself.
Stirner can disagree with me, and I don't give a shit because my ego matters more than him.
You are silly.
Tools and factories exist, means of productions don't. Can you show me a mean of production?
Nah, my flesh and bone exist independently if people believe in them or not.
Then I shall destroy your body.
A spook is a fixed idea that people puts it before their own ego.
So this dude owns something, and he's something, this other dude doesn't own something, he's something else. Nah, they are both just humans.
You can touch it, see it and hear it.
You don't seem to believe that groups or categories of things exist. This may be a sign of severe autism.
No, because there wouldn't be "legal ownership" in the first place, people would just be humans, flesh and bones.
Show me a mean of production.
...
If you can't interact with it, nah, it doesn't exist.
A group of people exist, a group of workers, capitalists, soldiers don't actually exist.
Logic doesn't actually exist and it's actually a social construct.
That's your comeback?
Well, nice to know.
Spook doesn't mean something immaterial. It means a fixed idea.
you are very very silly.
You are not intellectually honest and don't know anything about Stirner, so yeah that's my comeback.
Which is class.
You realise the next logical step in that is "all language is kill" right and therefore "group" and "people are both not real either.
We have language for a reason m80
Pedantic point: you can empirically sense radiation. Cherenkov radiation is visible. Radioactive sources cause a prickling sensation on the skin amongst other things (read the Chernobyl disaster testimony) and the charged particles in the van Allen belts are believed to be responsible for the flashes of light astronauts see in space.
I'm actually honest and my ego triumphs Stirner.
What's the point of being an egoist, where you have to limit yourself under Stirner's rules?
No, I refuse to place my ego below Stirner.
You're a sophist and that's it.
Languages are also social constructs, so yes, they don't real son.
you're also definitely autistic.
so do everyone a favour and stop speaking
No, I'm an egoist.
A true egoist who refuses to let Stirner spooks me with his own ideas.
Read Stirner.
Yes.
Open just about any garage in the U.S. and I'm sure you can find some power tools.
Flesh and bone exist, "You" don't though. Imma gonna shoot you >:D
It's more like "this dude owns something, so let's assign him a label as shorthand."
Humans are a social construct. You're actually all just objects because autism.
Kek ok
you realise the only person you're diddling by your hypocrisy is yourself, and so how can it be egoistic?
I wasn't being serious, fam. I just think you're being a little silly.
Maybe if I put it this way you'll see where I am coming from:
1. The capitalist class exists if and only if people believe in and enforce private property rights.
2. People believe in and enforce private property rights.
3. The capitalist class exists.
You're trying to tell me that the capitalist class does not exist, but this can't be the case given other things we know are true.
Not really.
Submitting yourself to Stirner's rules of egoist destroys the idea of egoist in the first place.
So Stirner says fuck me, I say fuck him, who gives a damn what he thinks.
How am I a hypocrite?
My ego is a racist one, betraying it to submit to Stirner would be hypocritical.
"rules"
they're not rules, rather just statements about definitions. If you don't do x you're not an egoist. It's just a fact. You are just doing pre-socratic tier sophistry.
please fucking read Stirner and get off the internet, kid
They are power tools, not means of productions.
And I will shoot back, because my fleshes and bones get hurt when you shoot them.
Which is totally abritrary, and a social construct.
Humans, like objects, actually exist. Unlike social constructs.
inb4 facts are a spook
"haha it's not a bag it's just plastic"
Haha it's not plastic it's just atoms.
Haha it's not atoms it's just (ad infinitum).
So basically, I have to do certain things in order to be an "egoist".
Nah, fuck that, my ego tells me what to do, not you, not Stirner.
humans don't exist, only atoms and the void :^)
The capitalist class only exist because people believe in them.
Thus they are not real.
yes, you have to do certain things to be an egoist.
Your ego is spooked so no, your ego is not telling you what to do. You are duped into thinking it is.
Just free yourself from the fixed idea kid
Humans exist because you can touch them.
You can't touch a class, an idea, a spook.
people don't exist, only atoms and the void :^)
no you can't, you're just touching atoms. People don't exist. :^)
How was the nick?
Can you put it in the form of an argument? :V
and actually there's a strong electromagnetic force that prevents you ever touching something, so you never touch anything and hence atoms aren't real :^)
Oh shit, wait, we see the effects of atoms and they are real.
Likewise we see the effects of class.
So you actually know my ego more than myself and command me to follow your version of my ego.
Sound like an order, my ego tells me to ignore your order.
There isn't even a strong electromagnetic force separating me and "class".
Show me a class.
Classes are spooks.
I don't submit to classes.
HOW CAN MIRRORS BE REAL IF OUR EYES AREN'T REAL?
But they real, son. They very real.
You can actually see image of yourself in a mirror, you can't even see your class.
You're logic is pretty inconsistent. Earlier you said that there was such a thing as a group of people.
Right there, you've already made the distinction between people and non-people. And also between individuals and a group. So that people are not all individuals, some belong in a group. Idk if you actually believe what you're writing and I suspect we all got baited.
Duh, people actually exist and you can actually tell what are people and not based on what they look like.
You can't even do the same with class.
You have to believe in them for them to exist.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but wouldn't measuring radiation with a geiger counter count as "empirically sensing" ?
You can do this little cognitive relativism dance all day, but you've already recognised that you aren't actually taking actions from ego until you free yourself from the fixed idea. So when you say "omg you're telling me what to do" no, I'm not. You're playing word games. If you just go off and do what "you want" you're just within the aesthetic sphere, and you aren't actually yourself.
I'm not telling YOU what to do, I'm telling the spooked "you" what to do, which is in fact not you. I'm exorcising you
...
if you actually believe your ego itself is racist, then you've definitely binded yourself to it.
Wrong.
A "voluntary egoist", as Stirner calls it, is concerned with "self-mastery" and "owness".
Whether it gives him pleasure or not is beside the point.
Yeah, you haven't read it.
Hey I'm trying to help you be de-spooked but looks like you have some growing up to do. Have fun being dominated by other people all your life.
So…I'm not myself, and you know my true self, and would actually try to revert me to my true self.
Nah, I don't think I should trust you.
Apparently, my ego cannot be racist, despite the fact that my ego is actually racist.
I can do all that and be a racist.
Being a racist doesn't sacrifice or hurt my ego, because my ego is actually a racist.
It's a troll
I don't know why I'm arguing someone who already told me they have renounced reason because "wahh it's not real".
Why does it matter if something's real then if you aren't going to use reason? Oh shit you just used reason, so you have already justified reason.
Now that you've justified reason, and you know that you should follow your ego, but you don't have a free ego to follow, it follows that you should free your ego.
But you won't do that because (I like being dominated by daddy Trump)
Have fun with your feel realz.
And they say I'm a fucking maniac.
You don't know that though because you haven't freed your ego from fixed ideas!
What?
Reason ain't real.
I don't follow my reason, I follow my ego, because there's nothing in this world except my ego.
Or I actually know it because my ego tells me to.
Have fun trying to control my ego, dude.
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It's cause and effect, no?
This is great.
Why?
Classes are indeed a spook.
I can't believe people would make fun of nationalist or racist, but then put classes above their ego.
Behold the consequences of materialism.
Remember this, and remember that you cannot derive an ought from an is so there is literally no reason to do anything under said worldview. This is just an invitation for Holla Forumsacks to be giant faggots.
Right, but that's the other problem. In socialist theory, people aren't divided into classes based on income, but based on their relation to production.
But let's stick with the middle class/upper class stuff. Whether or not you choose to call groups of people that make around the same amount a class – they will still share that quality. And there are other reasons why we would label them as classes, like shared culture, similar tastes, spending habits, etc.
Saying that everyone is radically individual and there are no groups other than physical appearances is firstly contradictory. And secondly, in economics trying to aggregate information about a group by referring to individuals is a dead end because, and this should be obvious, people who make about the same amount of money or are in the same profession share more with each other than not.
And in racist theory, people are divided into their races.
Who gives a shit? Theories ain't real, dude.
They would stop be a thing when people stop believing in them.
Muh feel realz
Please don't kill me over your feelings please.
...
Are you actually implying theories are real?
Can you show me a theory?
The shitposter is literally dwelling in idealism.
Shut up, Rebel.
What idealism?
Real things are real?
Pls stop.
nigga pls that's bs and you know it
seconded
Oh my, theories are actually real.
Can I touch it, can I eat it?
read Descartes, materialist loser
Uh, as opposed to?
I don't think you would tell much shit without your brain and sensory organs.
In fact, you would be nothing without your brain.
You can't be this dumb.
An ego itself cannot be racist, it simply accepts or denies certain propositions, ideas, etc.
Racism itself is an ideology based around a spook. Believing your ego is an ideology is silly and proves to me you are most likely possessed by it.
"I am my own only when I am master of myself, instead of being mastered … by anything else"
are you relying on your brain to tell you that?
Yeah, I don't actually believe theories are real, guise.
Uhm, yes.
Descartes wouldn't be able to write without his brain.
Refer to poster who told you just referring to ego doesn't mean you know what it means
An ego can be racist, my ego is racist, it accepts racism belief and it denies anti-racism.
You think an ego cannot be racist, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something.
Without my brain, I wouldn't have my ego.
To protect my ego, I have to protect my brain.
You think my brain is faulty? I don't give a shit what you think.
Ego != anything I want to call ego
but of course you'll just say "nu-uh because ego" ad infinitum right?
but how do you know :^))))
t. OP
An ego is me, myself.
Of course I wouldn't be myself without a brain.
An ego can be religious, my ego is religious, it accepts religion belief and it denies anti-religious.
You think an ego cannot be religious, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something.
Now how about you read the book ?
Simple, you have an ego. If I remove your brain, you wouldn't have one.
You aren't yourself then :^) because you don't have a brain.
Now how about you stop letting Stirner's ideas rule over your ego?
show OP the proofs jimmy
…well, I do have a brain. I wouldn't be able to post here without a brain.
...
youtube.com
That dude who was headshotted stops having an ego.
...
Uh, you can actually interact with gravity.
You can actually see it too, especially in environment that doesn't have it.
prove he had an ego :^)))
"I'll just stop believing in the state and I'll be able to commit crime"
BECAUSE LE BRAIN!
Well, his ego was telling him to act.
Then boom, headshot, suddenly his ego stops telling him to act.
Or even live.
States ain't real, son.
They are social constructs.
An ego can be feminist, my ego is feminist, it accepts femminist belief and denies patriarchy.
You think an ego cannot be feminist, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego cannot be something.
Your ego can indeed be a feminist.
An ego can be slave, my ego is slave, it accepts slave belief and it denies anti-slavery .
You think an ego cannot be slave, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something.
Whoa, good to know my poverty is just an idea, guess now I can just go out and buy a Ferrari and tickets to an opera.
Ahh. So some theories are real then.
An ego can be _, my ego is __ , it accepts _belief and it denies anti-____.
You think an ego cannot be __, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something.
thanks for the pasta spookednigger
Another social construct.
If you submit social construct, thus you must act by it.
An ego can be capitalist, my ego is capitalist, it accepts capitalist belief and it denies anti-capitalism .
You think an ego cannot be capitalist, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something.
Gravity is not a theory.
Gravity theory is a not real thing trying to explain a real thing.
Nice to know my ego triumphs over some other egos.
Maybe I would be the next Stirner.
Do you think something can be real and not actually exist in space and time?
An ego can be shitposting, my ego is shitposting, it accepts shitposting as belief and denies coherent arguments.
You think an ego cannot be shitposting, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something
I agree. this some good pasta
Nah.
If it ain't physical, it ain't real son.
everyone in this thread, including myself, should off themselves.
An ego can be ego, my ego is shitposting, it accepts ego as belief and denies coherent arguments.
You think an ego cannot be ego, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something
My ego tells me to ignore this suggestion.
I didn't know your ego spoke to you. You must be very proud.
No need to be, as an egoist, an ego is all I need.
Fucking kill me
Stop bumping this train-wreck
My ego tells me to not do it.
Not worth the trouble.
if I sage, he'll bump his own in response. If I don't sage, less posts before it autosages
An ego can be bumping, my ego is bumping, it accepts bumping as belief and denies saging.
You think an ego cannot be bumping, that means your ego has problems and it's submitted to an ideology where ego CANNOT be something