I know that most socialist parties in the West are mostly cucked and lean towards liberal SocDem. However, this "open borders" issue became a huge thing amongst the more radical parts of these parties as well. In Europe, where I come from, being radical left is basically associated with the destruction of all borders. Why the fuck do radical lefties support this unreasonable shit for other reasons than just piss off the Alt-right?
Communism is stateless, fine. Socialism has to be international, fine. But Socialist Internationalism is not Neoliberal Globalisation, or is it? The reason Merkel and Co. invited so many migrants is because they needed cheap labor force. The minimum wage in Germany is just a baby yet they already try to subvert it to integrate migrants into the capitalist wage slavery.
Why the fuck would you think that inviting millions of Muslim migrants from traditionalist society would get you revolutionary potential? All you get is lumpen because of the inevitable ghettos that will appear. The domestic population will vote right as well.
The problem, in my opinion, is a wrong application of materialsm. While it might be true that the material conditions amongst migrant subcultures induce unrest, it will mostly drive them towards religious and cultural fundamentalism. Most migrants come from traditional, partly even feudal societies. Confronted with being the out-group in the West, they will look out for another identification but this identification won't be left. See, for the migrants our culturally liberal society is "left" already. The only thing to show society the middle finger is by leaning towards traditionalist models - just look at all the girls from secular Turkish families that decide to wear the Hijab in High School to segregate themselves from the decadent West.
To conclude this, looking at the ML-states of the last century, even though they were mostly state capitalist, shows that Leftism is in no way obliged to destroy all border control. It might be, when there is world wide revolution, but as long as there is neoliberalism we are just useful idiots when we advertise this.
People confuse the end goal (a lack of need for borders because all people have prosperity regardless of locale) with what's possible in our current environment. Alternatively, they just feel bad for people who are poor.
Mason Young
Identity politics- the bane of the left
Luke Bell
Have you left your basement recently? When there is the radical left or Antifa marching against the alt-right with AnCom-flags and whatnot they are always shilling for this stupid "No human is illegal" IdPol bullcrap. It's not just a thing for the SocDem leadership of the allegedly socialist parties, it boils down the radical base
Joshua Wood
They are not pro-immigration to create a revolutionary movement. They are mitigating the negative effects of capitalism and imperialism.
Christopher Ross
No. And it's a bunker, thank you very much.
And your point is? Because it's protecting people from harm, not advocating mass immigration.
Gavin Harris
This whole thread. Come on bro.
Brandon Martinez
Shut the fuck up trying to appeal to national sovereignty. Nobody should give a fuck about your government or its condition.
Carter Scott
The people who are poor are working class too.
Do you oppose workers being allowed to emigrate to find better employers who don't treat them like shit? Do you only feel this way about countries, or do you think it should apply on a more local level too?
Jacob Brown
I think that without a sustainable, effective economic system, mass immigration does more harm than good. I can understand being temporarily against immigration until socialism is fully set up.
Nicholas Lopez
Blame your government, don't beg it for scraps. Fucking class traitor.
Grayson Wilson
Mostly because most Socialists today are very in favor of protecting minorities like immigrants, but there's also the fact that new developments in capitalism take free movement of capital and labour for granted and there's no point in trying to roll back the clock.
Personally, anything that gradually withers away the nation-state I'm for.
Nation states suck, transnational corporate world government sucks a whole lot more.
Easton Perry
I'm not reading your wall of text but mass migration is caused by people looking for work in capitalism. In socialism people would move only if they felt like it.
Zachary Rodriguez
i shiggy diggy
Joshua Mitchell
Mostly because they are getting paid by Porky to legalise presence of cheap labor force that will lower the wages.
Do you actually want to be be anywhere near the "withering of nation-state"? Because it sounds nice only in theory.
Kevin Brown
currently how does mass immigration help the leftist movement
Nicholas Scott
hahaha are you living in the 19th century? Endless sources of cheap labour are not a problem today, and if wages are lowered they're lowered due to international competition.
lol
Asher Perry
Not an argument
Leo Thomas
...
Connor King
Equality is a tenet of socialism. This idea has been extended past the economic and into other areas such as education and race. All educations must be equal, all races must be equal, etc. That's the philosophical justification.
It's also a voting strategy: ethnic minorities are more likely to be poor (Eastern Europeans) or on welfare (blacks) and so are easy pickings for leftist parties.
Hunter Butler
What game is this?
Bentley Martin
Since you have an AnFem flag I'm not sure if I should take this seriously, but you got to explain to me how opposing mass migration of uneducated, religious and spooked lumpen makes me a nationalist. I oppose it because it makes any sort of revolution even more unlikely
Protecting people from harm? We are talking migration here not asylum rights. I think you underestimate the pull effects that this open border policy has.
By calling me a racist and ignoring the wall of text I wrote you could as well just be a liberal.
Holy shit. What good does it to the Third World Country when all the middle and working class moves to the West? You know the actual poor people there don't even have the chance to emigrate. Fucking class traitor lel
Hearts of Iron 4
Benjamin Powell
I'm not an idiot, I know HOI4 doesn't look that good
Jaxson Kelly
Open borders are a contentious issue because socialists also have a strong reputation for an "ends justify the means" mentality and don't want to look heartless to possible liberal converts.
There is also the fact that most refugees in Europe are escaping capitalist wars of imperialism, which creates a genuine dilemma: turning them away is condoning the societal decay of capitalism, but accepting them unquestioningly is perpetuating it.
Cooper Bailey
I never said you were. I'm saying that characterizing working class people desperate and poor, by order and law of a nation, itself capitalist; is not what you want, or I want. Respecting the national authority of a nation and coneding for reform, especially when these people can be exploited by the capitalists? It's a naive viewpoint everything can be simple as "P-PLEASE EU DADDY MAKE IT STOP :(".
If they're willing to exploit the working class at that level of income, anyways, why would you want to work with them in the first place to get rid of them beyond that fact?
They aren't worth begging, voting, or working with, even by your own standards.
Dominic Green
Because they feel bad for the poor Arabs, Africans, Central Americans, and so on.
It's perfectly fine for me to say that I wouldn't want a bunch of fundamentalist Christians to move in next to me. Not wanting to live near a bunch of Muslims, who often hold views at least as reactionary as said Christians, is, of course, racist and Islamophobic, because the poor Muslims are victims of Imperialism.
John Smith
What the fuck are you even talking about? Islamists made their bed, let them lay in it. They actively fought for anti-secularism and are reaping the bloody rewards.
Kayden Murphy
They only maintain power because people in the Middle East associate the secularist leaders with drones blowing their families to pieces with no repercussions.
Isaiah Wilson
If at first you don't understand, read and read again.
Excellent rebuttal. I'm just kidding that was sarcasm. It wasn't a good rebuttal.
I'd say, so are you, in the context of today.
Matthew Jenkins
Allowing in refugees and other people only puts more strain and pressure on the native workers. R-right guys?
Carson Williams
Because the corporation-state is gonna be so much better
Connor Johnson
Instead of lifting up the third-world to our standard of living, importing cheap foreign labour brings us down to their standard of living. And that is why the working-class is hostile towards mass immigration, visa workers and outsourcing.
Justin Myers
I don't know what you expect us to say. All I can say is my own policy. I think there should be more freedom of movement within countries of compatible cultures while the rest have strict integration requirements to avoid cultural clashes like all that Islamist bullshit.
Blake Baker
Capitalist alienation is probably mostly responsible for the Islamist bullshit.
When Japs are disenfranchised, they become hikikomori NEETs and maybe kill themselves.
Whites are kinda like that too. Western society is apparoaching that "NEET stage" that Japan was in in the 90s.
But when Muslims and Blacks are disenfranchised, they radicalize and blow shit up.
Kevin Reed
That is only the case in a few instances. Only ISIS members get paid and even then it's not that much, not everyone who kills in the name of Allah or the Islamist cause. Not everything is because of capitalism. It's like I'm listening to a feminist say everything is because of patriarchy. It's just a stupid over simplification.
Xavier Myers
Various studies have shown that immigration actually boosts a country's economy. If the government aren't taking advantage of that to increase tax revenue and reinvest it in the working class, that's the government's problem. Arguing against immigration as a temporary measure it retarded because the government are the problem and they're also the only ones who can change immigration policy. You're doing all the hard PR work for them by creating and promoting a convenient scapegoat.
Ethan Torres
"Tax revenues" don't "fund" anything. Modern Monetary Theory goes into that subject.
Taxation is used to give value to the currency and to control for inflation.
The real economy is resources and human capital. Immigrants consume resources and provide cheap labour. That is their contribution to society. Which isn't much. Anyone can provide their labour. We had a large reserve army of labour.
Nathaniel Cook
There are two potential solutions from a reformist point-of-view (so basically working within the capitalist framework) 1. The bourgeoisie would have to give up a portion of their revenues to create more jobs (fat chance). Maybe if you simultaneously make a 30-35 hour work week law and increase the minimum wage, you can force Porky's hand. I imagine that it's going to be difficult to force Porky to comply with the new work week law and the minimum wage. After all, lots of employees work above and beyond their 40 hours and don't get compensated for it. Some employees work under-the-table for below minimum wage too. Even citizens. or 2. The government would have to introduce basic income would should incentive leisure and introduce a decentive to labour. Because right now the reserve army of labour is so large that if you don't actually spread the labour hours around more equitably or raise welfare benefits, people are going to fucking starve.
Enough with this autistic accelerationalist armchair socialism shit. Working-class people want relief NOW.
Jacob Foster
Mass immigration is shitty for everyone except capitalists who want more interchangable cogs.
