Shill Vim to me
I want to use Vim, because it is open source, not bloated, good plugin system, battle tested (maintained long period of time).
But I don't care about Vim's autistic shortcuts / modal editing. I don't care if it is more efficient/productive. I just want to use it because everything else is shittier.
Shill me Vim. Why should I embrace autism and gitgut?
Sorry if low quality thread.
kek. Use ed. Not only is ed the standard text editor, it is only 2.1% the size of the nox version of vim and 1.8% the size of the gtk version of vim.
Then go use Nano. Vim does not have shortcuts, Vim has a language of commands. There is a "grammar" to all of it and you can compose commands according to that grammar into "sentences", which allows you to edit text as quickly as you can think. Read this:
gist.github.com
And if you want to use Vim you might as well use Neovim, it's the same thing but better.
neovim.io
does neovim have the near magical ability to copy paste from the system clipboard?
Debatable. It accumulated a lot of stuff. It's relatively small, but not nearly as small as its reputation suggests.
Nah. Its native extension language is an extension of an editing language. The developers of the original Emacs already made and noticed this mistake back in the seventies, when it was written in TECO, but Vim didn't learn from it. Other extension languages aren't supported unless you compile Vim in the right way, meaning that you get a lot of fragmentation and plugin writers have to decide whether they want to use a language that's easily supported or a language that was actually designed for programming in.
Maintained for a long time, but in a notoriously bad way. It's full of cruft. If you're really going to go down this path, use Neovim.
I'm going to shill Emacs instead.
Like I said, the original Emacs, in the seventies, was written in TECO. That was a mistake. The editor people talk about nowadays when they say Emacs is GNU Emacs, an eighties rewrite. Rewrites are nice - they let you fix mistakes you made the first time. GNU Emacs was designed from the ground up to be a certain way.
GNU Emacs was designed to be the most powerful editor in the world. I think it succeeded.
The key to its success is Emacs Lisp. Emacs implements a Lisp language for extending it. And to make sure it was suitable, much of the actual editor was written in it too. You know an extension language is good if it's good enough for the core program.
Emacs Lisp is also the configuration language of Emacs. Although there's a simpler customization system in place now, for the most basic changes, more advanced configuration requires writing Lisp. Doing simple things in Emacs Lisp only requires simple code. You don't even need to be a programmer. There are (old, pre-Word) stories of Emacs-using secretaries picking it up and creating their own editing functions, without at any point realizing that they were actually learning to program.
So at that point, you're using the same language for three things:
- Configuring the editor
- Extending the editor
- Creating the editor
And these merge together! Small snippets of configuration can be shared, refined, published and turn into extensions. High-quality extensions can be integrated into the official core editor. Emacs users are Emacs extenders, and Emacs extenders are Emacs developers.
For over three decades, GNU Emacs has been a very popular text editor, with many users. And because configuration is extension is development, an unusually high fraction of Emacs users are potential developers. There is an insane amount of Emacs Lisp out there, to do anything you'd want to, and also most things you wouldn't want to.
A base Emacs installation includes editing modes (with syntax highlighting) for most languages you're likely to use. The package manager makes it easy to install more, and if you look for snippets on the web, outside the package manager, almost everything is covered.
A base Emacs installation also includes a mode for highlighting and optionally automatically clearing misplaced whitespace, a way to transparently edit files over SSH, a front-end for gdb, ways to send code to a REPL while you're writing it, a simple HTML renderer, a very popular mode for note taking and planning, and so much more. None of it bothers you while you're not using it, but if you look for it, it's there, at your command.
If you look at SublimeText and its functionality for minimaps and multiple cursors appeals to you - there are packages for that. You can get it in Emacs. If people like something Emacs gives them the tools to create it.
You can shape Emacs to do anything you want. It's the culmination of what free software can do. It's an incredible program. I haven't found anything like it.
Emacs has a few major problems.
it's slow
the keybinds are awful
you will end up customizing it as much as the entire rest of the OS
it's potential will always trick you into thinking you can get it to do stuff you want when in reality you should be writing an actual program instead of more elisp
Yes, use the * register (I'm pretty sure this works in Vim as well).
This is one thing Neovim fixes. Language hosts are installed as separate programs, so if you want to write Neovim plugins in your favourite meme language you don't have to re-compile the editor, you just install the host using your package manager.
github.com
If you like Lisp there are hosts for Common Lisp, Clojure and Racket. If someone bothered one could also write an Emacs Lisp or GNU Guile host.
I'm not a emacs users, so not 100% sure.
You can run it as a background process, I think. So when you start up emacs it is fast.
ergoemacs.github.io
You made me interested in Emacs. Is Emacs codebase really that better compared to Neovim?
I always discover new shit in Vim. Most recently sessions. That was a great discovery.
Start up is almost a non-issue since everyone keeps it open constantly. It's slow to use.
oh lol user the keybind issue is beyond huge. That probably doesn't even rebind 1% of what comes with vanilla emacs let alone the hundreds of packages available.
I'm not sure, I haven't looked at Neovim's codebase. Emacs's code does have really ugly parts.
But an advantage Emacs has is that its source code is meant to be read. It's the self-documenting extensible editor. If you want to know more about a function, you can press C-h f and enter the function name (or press C-h k and press the key that triggers the function, or press C-h a and do an apropos-style search for the function, or a few other options) and you get an overview of the arguments the function takes (including prefix arguments, the kind you'd use while editing), and the documentation supplied by the developer. And if that's not enough to satisfy you it tells you in which file the function was defined and you can click it to open the file and jump to the right line.
It can always do that to functions defined in Elisp, because the Elisp files are included with Emacs (usually gzipped, but Emacs opens those transparently), but if you have a copy of the C source code it can even do it with functions defined in C thanks to some sort of arcane magic.
There's nothing quite like Emacs.
l
l
i
k
your
s
e
l
f
Faggot. Use sed, head, tail and cat.
Only lispfags and chinese counterfeiters think this is readable
Does neovim still fuck up exiting from insert mode not going back a character? That makes it impossible to use for a serious vi/vim user without a lot of retraining, and would make life miserable in a mixed neovim/vim environment.
this is the state of open source text editors in 2017
Emacs will also destroy your health. Emacs pinky is a real thing.
amateur hour
Which is why you can also click that "(elisp)Cons Cells" link to get a full explanation in the manual.
If you mean that when you have "he[l]lo" (where the [] is the cursor position) and you enter insert mode and exit it immediately again that you have "h[e]llo", then yes, Neovim does that. I wasn't even aware there was a bug when the cursor did not move back.
Buzz off.
A new broom may sweep the floor good enough, but an old broom knows the corners well.
Entry-tier joke tbh
Just use foicica.com
its free and open source but doesn't have autistic mode and all this other vim aids
1. Use sticky keys so that you don't actually have to hold the modifier keys while you press your command.
2. Move your arm back an inch so that you don't have to contort your hand to hit the ctrl and alt keys.
3, Use the arrow keys to navigate because pressing ctrl+n, p, or whatever is dumb.
Anyway, spacemacs is the best of both worlds. You get an emacs with vim keybinds.
Just rebinding caps lock to control solved my Emacs problems. It's also nicer in shells and just about any other program with control-based keybindings.
What is with this fucking "autism" meme holy fucking shit.
Seriously, I'm out of here. Knowledge is now considered a illness. You truly can find that only on 8ch. People like you spreading this shit are the true cancer of human intellect.
tips fedora
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Everything above big touch-screen buttons with emojis on them is wizardry now. Embrace your autism, in normalfag parlance it means what would be considered a normal man only a few decades ago.
The author doesn't consider it a bug and is autistically defending it despite it defeating the point of making a drop-in compatible vim replacement when within the first few seconds a vim user will be tripped up by it. He was refusing to even add an option for it last time I tried neovim, so I went back to vim.
I've been using Linux for two decades and never bothered to learn vi/vim/emacs/whatever, mostly because the keybindings, design, and workflow are insane.
I started using joe early on and never looked back. I call it with 'jstar' to get Wordstar controls.
Nano is useless except for the most basic stuff.
github.com/tpope/vim-obsession
go back to reddit
Does elvis only exist on Slackware?
It's basically plain vi, w/o all the vim hoseshit.
You mean Thiago? He's no longer on the team anymore. And as I said, Vim and Neovim work the same in that regard now, so give it a try.
i thought this was the merchant behind the pole for a second...
Emacs is now slow, that's simply false. Maybe the startup is slow, but the normal use is not slow.
You can change the keybinding as you like.
I think i'm the only one that have actually swapped control and meta, according to the original keyboard emacs was design with (system wide, yeah, that's a pain when I have to switch to another computer).
Moreover, there is a lot of extension to make the keybinding better, like hydra for exemple, that allows you to not use any control key to do the combinations.
About the pinky problem, seriously, you should show me who, today, have this problem. It was a think backinthedays because the keyboards keys were very heavy. If you want to get ride of any fingers problem, simply do pushup on them, and hang from a bar for some minutes regulary every week. You'll have your muscle in your forearm stronger.
About writing only configuration and not code... Seriously, are you coding like 30 minutes per week? You have to config your tools once ("configure" mean mostly steal from already configured dotfiles). A very high level of configuration is very good, when you use this exact tool for years.
Don't mix autism with discipline. If you're a millenium who don't have enough discipline to learn to use anything that ask you to follow a tutorial, that's your problem.
Press control with your palm. Press alt with the side of your thumb.
...
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I'm guess you have some other idea of slow like Java IDE = slow, everything else = fast. Because that's the only way you could say emacs wasn't slow.
Casey Muratori has some kind of RSI problem and he uses emacs. Xah Lee had a blog about emacs, he has RSI.
RSI isn't caused by lack of finger pushups it's cause by repetitive strains.
I said you'll spend as much time configuring emacs as every other tool. My next point was that the illusion of customization in emacs is so huge that people will chose to write elisp rather than an actual program.
Personally I don't get the idea that discipline has anything to do with using a text editor.
no
All right, you seem to be extremly confined, but whatever.
Some pajeet insult, typical here.
Emacs wasn't respecting the unix ideology from the beggining. I mean, saying that emacs is slow today, with today's proc speed is just absurd. Emacs is not ed, it don't respect the unix philosophy. "It's bloated" compared to what is common in unix system. But it's not slow. I'm writing from emacs right now, and everything is instantaneous. I can access the REPL and compile what I want in 1 sec. What is slow? Seriously I wonder. You start emacs-client at the beggining, it takes like 2 seconds, and opening emacs is instantaneous. Where is it slow?
This sentence doesn't mean shit. I was talking about doing exercise to have healthier muscles in your forearm. Programming don't make your muscles stronger at all. Moreover, as I said, you you ignored that, the present keyboards are not designed for emacs. I think that actually the japanese keyboard, with the possibily to put control/meta/super/hyper on keys under your thumb is the best layout. I'm not talking about dvorak and such.
Illusion of customization? In emacs? Is that a joke?
And what is the problem with elisp? In what way does that make you stop from writing programs?
This simply doesn't mean anything. You're seriously saying that people who start writing in lisp actually continue to write in lisp because they like it? Is this something wrong to help the free software community? Or maybe enjoying writing in some language?...
As I said, you can mostly copy past config from github. You don't even have to write your own functions.
You don't get what I was saying at all. I was talking about these today's kid who brag about being an autism if you use vim or emacs. I was saying that it's because you first have to learn to use these tools that they are behaving like that.
Try it faggot and you'll see it is easier, faster, and doesn't strain your fingers at all.