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I would've expected this on /liberty/. Nice though.

I see he carefully neglected to mention that the last time we didnt have a government to put stops on capitalistic entrepreneurship, kids were hot-beddding in steam-powered factories, working 12-hour shifts, and any opposition to the status quo had a visit from the Pinkertons' local equivalent.

Not to say intervention came from the goodness of their hearts, mind you.

Im not fully experienced but wasn't everything voluntary anyway? It was just kids working on a farm for 12 hours back when anyway. Not in a factory. I think just factories paid better.

Now of course the lines begin to blur when you'r forced into an inescapable situation like paying your employees with currency that they can only redeem with yourself.

Im not saying capitalism is flawless, its pretty brutal and mr big briches loves to exploit workers. But its a much more blurred line.

you mean propaganda?

I admit I dont know all the ins and outs of how the Industrial Revolution worked (maybe there was social or personal pressure to chase a life in the cities? Idunno) but I can tell that however they got there, their work was as voluntary as the need to eat.

Government caused 1929.

No, it's reality. Before civilization you had to hunt, forage and otherwise expend effort to find what you needed to survive. This has never not been the case unless you believe in creationism and the garden of eden.

Kids not working is a relatively new thing. Maybe not the moment they can walk and talk, but I'm pretty sure kids were expected to help tend to the farm a hell of a lot earlier in life than now. When industry picked up it went from helping on the farm to helping pay the bills.

And now it's legally dodgy to have kids under 16 wipe tables for a wage. Do "average" kids even have chores these days?

While I agree with this, when the labor pool laughably overshadows available jobs tends to lead to some pretty nasty shit without some laws. Because not just men, but also women and children were working in the mines and factories, the labor pool was so oversaturated that you could pay a pittance for a day's work and have conditions that amounted to a deathtrap. If the guy didn't like it, he could go starve while 12 other guys were lined up at the door waiting for a free slot. This is currently what's happening in China.

Back in Industrial Revolution Brittan, agriculture became so efficient they didn't need a small village to tend the new enclosures, so the now out of work farm hands moved to the cities where they flooded labor supply. This meant that people were constantly competing with each other for a job and the business owners could lower wages. This caused wives to get into factory and mine work, then eventually children. This, naturally, caused wages to fall even farther to the point that whole families were earning a combined sum that was roughly enough to feed, clothe, and shelter them while less fortunate families starved. This is an equilibrium in the labor market and should come to nobody's surprise.

Child labor laws was probably that one rare instance where government intervention did help society prosper: the main drive was to get children educated since the literacy rate among the working class was an abject joke. With more children being taught their three R's, they were more useful to society as a whole. Educated workers are able to tap into innate ingenuity and drive, allowing them to reach the middle class better through invention, self-education, clever living, and "working smarter and harder". These educated workers become professionals, inventors, entrepreneurs, financial workers, civil servants, and other useful members of society. This is good for everyone since the alternative is a herd of uneducated workers languishing in ever-intensifying squalor or social welfare as their value to society is priced out (as in what was happening in the above paragraph).

Then of course, along came some German fuckups at one time or another and introduced social cancers like Communism and Prussian Education, which eventually decayed into Cultural-Marxism and mindless state obedience.

And yeah, you can still find in rural American schools excusing farmers' children for half-days when they're needed, but I think there's a limit to the number of days they can be excused.

Stuff happens when a Pandora's box is opened, and there's always someone unfortunate enough to be in the path of whatever comes out.

But regulation rarely actually causes positive change, most of the time it looks that way because the new laws are metaphorically pushing a boulder that's already rolling down the hill.

In the case of child labor, They did it because they had to. In the worse cases, the whole family had to work or they'd all starve.

Slapping down a law against child labor removes the chance for the children to contribute. They had to hope they could get by on what the parents make. This would go horribly for families with more kids. Granted eco-physics worked on it and the labor vacuum meant higher wages and more opportunities for everyone old enough to work, but the government isn't a magic wand. It pruned some opportunities to enhance others.

I said both of these things myself. Laws should only be passed in absolute necessity, and even then carefully considered and crafted to insure as little negative consequences. Passing a half-page law that was hammered out for six months can be acceptable, passing a 3,000 page law that was passed while everyone was watching the funeral of a pop star is disgusting.

Not exactly. Exceptions that can be justified may be written in or even amended later on. There are exceptions in US federal and state laws that allow business to employ their family members even when underage. Laws are like the rulebooks /tg/ uses for games: they can be written to any end, but have to be done so with care, or some worthless sack of shit munchkin will come along and start abusing the hell out of it.

And yes, the government isn't a magic wand, but its still a social tool that can come along and give the economy a proper kick in the pants if used correctly. If it wasn't the primary reason eco-phyisics drove wages up, it was at least a catalyst.

You're right. It's a good thing we live in civilization now, where we have enough food and homes to ensure everyone doesn't die in the streets for some arbitrary reason.
oh wait

So did everyone
What is so wrong with child labor anyway?
Is there a reason a kid can't have a job when not at school?

this thread should be working now

I don't know how "persuasive" this is, but it's kind of cool to remember a time when guys like Eisner would do stuff for the military out of patriotism.

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vietnam era eh? Wasn't the M16-A1 notorious for jamming because the moisture in the jungle jammed the guns?

The army really fucked up by the numbers with the rollout of that platform. A lot has been written about it but one of the big factors were that the army did not communicate to the troops the proper maintenance procedures or provide them with the proper cleaning supplies. Some army officers apparently genuinely believed that the rifle was "self cleaning" which is very stupid. This problem was greatly exacerbated by the Army switching to a dirtier ball powder at the last minute when the rifle was designed for and tested with cleaner burning stick powder.

I could be wrong about the chronology but I think publications like this were part of the effort to rectify those fuckups. The rifle started to see wide use around '63 and '64 and this is dated '68. (The "Clean up to five times a day." bit seems excessive to me but I'm sure every AR-15 hater is laughing their ass off.)

As the Industrial Revolution demonstrated, if a kid Can get a job, he will Not be at school.

This. Given children aren't as large, strong or smart as adults, there's no reason to employ them unless specifically to exploit them, and ho boy do they exploit them. They'll be worked to the bone, and usually undernourished, uneducated and given zero consideration for health or safety, resulting in a body that's already half broken by the time they're an adult.

You leave capitalists unchecked, they'll burn down society to collect insurance on the ashes.

While it has some pretty tongue-in-cheek war propaganda, I always was under the impression Eisner's military manuals were more a way to make the grunts to goddamn read the fucking manuals and care for their tools of killing than anything else.

Treating fish as property instead of a public good is leading to a tragedy of the commons in present times, too.

Oh really asshole?
Most kids already are working during the summer and other breaks from school the only difference is that now they aren't guaranteed fair compensation and are freely exploited for their labor.
Is there a single reason that these kids that are doing landscaping and working in restaurants while on summer vacation can't be paid a fair wage for their hours worked or put collect a taxable paycheck so they can build credit or put it on their resumes?
1: this is already mostly happening, as I have pointed out above child labor laws only make it easier to exploit child labor rather than harder "No uncle sam that kid isnt
an employee he's just my nephew helping out the family while on summer break!"
2:What exactly do you think working in the modern day entails? Nobody is "worked to the bone, and usually undernourished, uneducated and given zero consideration for health or safety" anymore this isn't a Charles Dickens novel and people aren't regularly getting their arms caught in flywheels at the toil and hardship factory.
Bonus Round: There is a difference between allowing child labor and forcing it, if a kid is allowed to work they may or may not take the option, the only complaints I see you leveling at the idea of child labor are built on the assumption that somebody is forcing them into it which is already illegal independent of child labor laws.
Hell by allowing those under the age of 16 to work you are automatically extending workers rights to them, nobody is going to be sending little tim into a coal mine without safety equipment for a nickel and hour if the law requires that he be paid at least minimum wage, go through proper safety training and that all employees including him abide by OSHA standards.

You leave it in the hands of socialists and it just plain burns.

Nah, Some asshole will watch your house burn and just tell you how you didn't get it. You ask them about the 12 other houses they burned down they yell and you and run off to burn another house.

Capitalism is shit. But capitalism is realistic.

Believe it or not I have seen minor communities working under communism without subsidy. But it only works when everybody in the community is willing and likes each other.

Its much easier to donate 12% of your income so your Dans daughter Susy can have leg surgery done when you know that Dan is usually a very attentive and caring father, and you can trust him.

Its NOT so easy when you know that cash is going who knows where and 75% of it will be eaten up by beurocracy.

Never has there been a more pretentious idiotic statement than that often repeated one.
Capitalism is nothing more than the voluntary exchange of goods and services.
That's because communism can work but only in tiny as fuck populations of less than maybe 100 people, small enough where if somebody isn't working you can go over to their hut and smack them in the face until they get off their ass, but in reality in the modern world where even small towns have populations measuring in the thousands this simply isn't going to work.

THIS

People become capitalists because they know Utopia is basically impossible, and that trying at it only makes things worse.

It just works best because it works with the grain of human nature instead of needing to fight it every step of the way.

Also, embed.

I hope no-one from Holla Forums sees this or they'll start swarming like flies on rotten bait.

If they're all living on one fish a day and exerting all their energy in doing so, why in the nun-fucking hell is Baker so fucking fat?

No I'm a capitalism lover. I just meant that in the same way Having to breath air is shit.
Wouldn't it be great if we where immortal beings that only knew pure bliss?

But thats utopic dangerous thinking.

Embeded related
tl;dw

Look, I'd rather have children go to school and have a happy childhood, but when their options is either to work or starve to death, I would rather they worked.

Also regarding the government saved the day, in America the law was passed in the 1930s, in Britain it was in 1966, when child labor was at it's lowest. This isn't the government saving the day, it's just them passing a law that wasn't necessary and boast about how wonderful it is. It is as if, today, the government would pass a law banning horse drawn carriages on highways, and say how it was done to incentive people to buy cars, when most people already own cars.

Even then it can fail spectacularly.

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Pretty much.

That was the norm for everyone in those times not an effect of capitalism, and it was till an improvement on what they had before.

I dunno, I think utopia could work in about ten years or so if development of robotics and AI continue at around their current rate.

Always add on the number of years you expect it to be. We have only been estimating AI and Robotics to make our lives utopia in 10 years for like 60 years now.

Oh, I meant physically possible. As in the actual mechanical refinement will be there.

But with entrenched corporations that function as independent programs and a few greedy fuck we probably won't see utopia in our life time, we'll be lucky if we get a second new deal in 20 years, if ever.

Even if every job were automated that isn't enough to create a society that doesn't need to work, because scarcity would still exist, hell even if the repllicators from star trek existed that could perfectly recreate resources down to a molecular level it still couldn't reproduce specific versions of things (it could make a mona lisa but not THE mona lisa) nor could it provide specific property (the house on the lake) so some means of capitalism would still be required.
Not only that but even when all jobs are automated will most companies be able to afford the robots either because of the price tag or because a world without workers means a world without consumers which means no profit.
A fully automated world is still a pipe dream even if the tech is already there.

First government to foot the bill in debt for a fully robotic workforce just takes over. Simple as that. It'll probably be China cause they are already upgrading and their government is kind of already structured to at least comprehend the problems the action would take.

Then instead of competing with Chinese workers, it's Chinese robots, personal debt skyrockets as jobs fall away and society breaks down. Revolution. If only someone had predicted it and suggested a possible solution. even if he did spend the second half of his life fighting against it because people thought they could jump to the final step without the ground work

That still does not undo what I said. Society advanced much slower, and great dreams are phased out with what's practical and actually works.

Like people really underestimate how advanced the human brain is. Just because were not 100% devoted to solving arithmetic problems, doesn't mean our bodies aren't some of the most advanced self-sustaining machines in existence.

Heck Psychology is a whole other deal. Like even with Genetic engineering. How do you make a human smarter? Make them more focused on maths or something? Advanced memorization?

That's what autistic people commonly are. Even a "Larger" brain doesn't guarantee better intelligence as larger brains lead to longer processing times for neurons.

My statement was meant to agree with you, didn't come out right in text.

Maybe if you're an idiot, did you read the rest of my post?
If there is scarcity there is need for money, if there are no jobs there is no revenue, ergo robots cannot take everyones jobs as long as there is scarcity.
Its a problem that solves itself.

Dude…He said government will fit the bill.

Checkmate Libertarialooser!

As we all know, governments just have infinite money piles. Or tax the 1%. Look the details like "Where is the revenue gonna come from for maintenance" and "Doesn't more complicated machinery wear out faster making it cost prohibitive" are not important.

Point is we get the revolution like the brilliant Marx Promised all along!

How is the government going to fit the bill
Of course everyone knows how all government entities have secret machines that can squeeze food/fuel/electricity/water/homes/clothing/medicine/etc from rocks and then distribute them to everyone using magic, the only reason anyone ever worked was just a big social experiment, see there is a camera right over there!

Does anybody here get sarcasm whatsoever? Or do you only read the first sentence?

Evidently not you
How did you read that post and not get that it was responding to sarcasm with sarcasm?

Diversity.

As a Marxist this is literally all propaganda.

i have that comic. my dad brought it home from 'nam.

it actually was one of a whole series of monthly comics called PS magazine that still is distributed today.

lots of good info like where exactly mechanical wear is most likely to occur in various pieces of equipment, how to procure new parts to update old equipment, scematics for field expedient tools for various niche tasks like a Abrams tank exhaust deflector. or a special cover for the HMMWV's radiator so you have something to stand on during certain tasks, etc.

There are online archives of many of the old ones. Pretty neat stuff. I think the comic format makes it a lot easier to digest and retain basic information. The technical drawing also lend themselves to the visual format.

psmag.radionerds.com/index.php/Main_Page
archive.is/nt3TG

In my country there was a time were educational comics were advertised in media. They were all about the native cultures and the conquest of America by the spaniards. The stories were based on historical facts, the book store of my family bought some of them but they didn't sell at all. They are one of the few physical copies of comics i have and they are really good.

Documentary source?

there are people who just automatically reject it as a dumb mandatory publication with redundant info, but they conveniently forget that actual army manuals are written in such a way as even the simplest tasks have like fifty steps and are not only tedious to read, but are rarely accompanied with useful illustrations.
also, PS magazine is produced monthly while army manuals are updated maybe once a decade.

Governments do, effectively, have infinite money or could simply force citizens to do the work.

You really think China gives a fuck when they see 300% increase in production with a spike in quality?

The whole problem with the situation isn't that the situation ISNT avoidable but that human greed means people WONT avoid it.

Basic income is a way to continue to use capitalism rather than communism. Basically paying people for the job of being a consumer which is then used as a force of evolution in a market to grow certain practices. That's just one solution.

Given the rioting idiots in recent days it might suprised people that I don't want society to crumble. I would rather strong leadership bring large buisness practices to heel, but at this point a full communist revolution seems far more likely than buisnesses getting a tax increase, unions to be revitalized and for that tax money to go anywhere near where it's supposed to.

Thanks

That is just pants-on head. First off that's communism with a pretend-capitalism working under it.

The main problem is it's basically an excuse to try to print away poverty. That obviously won't work because if you're just handing everyone money just for being alive, you have the problem outlined in the comic starting about here:

If the government just hands out money to everyone, the value of that money will decline. Read up on what happened to Zimbabwe's currency.

And if you somehow found away around omegainflation, without going full communist, a basic income would probably just lead to full-fledged "Behavioral Sink."

And around that time was when major gun control laws came into being. Gee, I wonder why.

Adam Curtis All Watched Over By Machines Of Loving Grace

Geez, grandma

Yes, it is communism with a pseudo-capitalistic covering to ensure further rewards to people and companies that offer a service. It isn't perfect but it keeps at least some semblance of the market alive when automation removes the consumer base.

As far as inflation/deflation, can we just agree that it's going to be fucked up no matter what? We're talking record unemployment in conjunction with a massive upsurge in quantity and quality of goods, there's no way the value of currency is going to go bonkers.

The large scale of automation, to the point that housing markets can be remotely networked, medicine can be done remotely and almost all industry can be done with little to no manpower is simply a level technology capitalism…

Well it COULD deal with, which is the sad thing, if people in charge had something resembling a spine. But the few voices I'm hearing for reform of the systems are being drowned out by ego driven investors and deep state shills.

So, I guess the situation is that the world is going to crash into an easily avoided wall because the capitalism bus driver is to stubborn to turn left and after the vehicle is a smoldering wreck everyone's going to have to get into a shitty communism jalopy that nobody bothered to fix.

Yes, it is communism with a pseudo-capitalistic covering to ensure further rewards to people and companies that offer a service. It isn't perfect but it keeps at least some semblance of the market alive when automation removes the consumer base.

Except it doesn't because combatting automation by pretending it doesn't exist just makes you a poor third word shit sack with starving peasants. Being inefficient intentionally has never helped anybody.

The solution to automation unemployment is to end the gatekeeping that ensures that only people who are already rich can actually start a business. There's anywhere from too much red tape to regulatory assassination under current law.

As technology gets cheaper, more people can afford new tools and use them in new ways.

As costs drop, people could live on a few microincomes instead of one job.

Yeah but you need to stop some breeding to occur to limit the amount of newly born unemployed.

Anything with Maxist elements tends to fail