Can I still be a principled leftist without obsessively hating Israel?

Why do people see it as such a horrendous obstruction to proletarian struggle? If anything is no more or less obstructive than other neolib states like France, Germany, England, etc. What does 'Palestinian liberation from the river to the sea' do to hasten any workers revolution? Most Palestinians could give half a fuck about any non-hierarchical, egalitarian society where in a relative sense Israel is closer to achieving. Jewish society is multi-cultural, multi-racial, and multi ethnic with a far slimmer gender wage gap compared to Arab society. Seems like they are the ones who more so mimic dialectical materialist path.

Other urls found in this thread:

8ch.net/leftypol/res/766798.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_trap
juancole.com/2010/10/israel-declares-for-ethnic-nationalism.html
counterpunch.org/2015/10/14/anti-imperialism-2-0-selective-sympathies-dubious-friends/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

found the idpol shitter

You can simply not give a shit about them, hurr

Obviously.
Also, Israel is the least reactionary nation in the region.

You clearly don't have enough information on this topic to formulate an educated opinion. Israel is an apartheid state, one of the most explicitly non-egalitarian in the world.

OP is a fucking fag


no, lebanon, tunisia, and rojava are. Israel is extremely reactionary.

Who are you talking about when you say "Israeli society"? The ultra-orthodox who are mostly anti-zionist? The seculars? The Mizrahim? Who?

We already have a Palestine thread.

8ch.net/leftypol/res/766798.html

...

As long as the jewish state of Israel exists only for jews and the oppression of the Palestinians continues, no.

Why do you think jews injected themselves into the rightwing by creating the neocons.

The jews are so awful the right and left hate them, for different reasons of course.

lol, that's exactly what zionists say about the palestinians

Funny, because there was a time when the Left was either very supportive or outright nuanced on the topic of Zionism and Israel.

Even Stalin gave support to Israel during its creation. Hell, Israel might not have won the 48 war had the USSR not been giving the Jewish militias weapons.

Like with Turkey in 1922, because the soviets wanted to influence, GB, US and so on had to influence more.

If that meant, in 1922, abandoning Greece in the war, so be it. If that meant fucking Palestine, so be it.

It's all about Geopolitics.

Also, Stalin wasn't "the left".

post ww2 jews rode off holocaust guilt, the left have adopted the sand nigger as their new oppressed pet.

Israel itself started out socialist but leftism in Israel has been completely snuffed out for borderline fascism/ jew theocracy

I wonder if Zionists see the irony in this.

Leftypol is pro-imperialism now?

...

Israel does whatever it needs to to look good to media.

In reality, racism against Bene and Beta Israelis is far from rare, and the Israeli far right is no different from the Muslim far right that rules in the Middle East.

More importantly, however, is the fact that Israel is the West's heavily funded responsibility, essentially forcing people to subsidize its constant harassment of the Palestinians. In light of this it is of no surprise that so much of Palestine supports Hamas.

Heyyy yo. Ex-BDSer here again.

I have zero love for Israel or the Israeli government, but having worked with the BDS campaign for years I can tell you there are plenty of things which they and other pro-Palestinian groups don't seem to get.

Israel is a fucked up society. Period. But what can Americans or Europeans really do about it except pressure their governments and corporations to withdraw their support? Even if BDS or all the other anti-Zionist campaigns did their thing and caused the Knesset to collapse it still wouldn't mean a beautiful, one-democratic state of Palestine would magically rise up from the ashes. That's because a lot of this shit is entirely dependent on what the Palestinians themselves do; yes, material conditions are important but they're not everything. As of right now, the Palestinian leadership is in shambles. You're not going to see a Palestinian vanguard party storm Tel Aviv and seize power anytime soon.

The BDS Movement I worked with was comprised entirely of moral fanatics who were much more obsessed with "de-zionizing the mind" than figuring out ways to strategically end the occupation. That's why they made it a huge thing to attack their peers for buying Sbux coffee or listening to music by Israeli artists, because doing so would "normalize Zionism" ideologically. Needless to say, it became a clusterfuck.

no, it's just some liberal retards. probably copcucks too.

The Middle East is one huge hotbed of ethnic and religious chauvinisms:
Etc.

...

OP, listen: I don't agree with your support for Israel, but I'll tell you this - the only people who actually support Israel's destruction ("one state solution") are old intellectuals and do-gooder white liberal activists. NO ONE in the international community is serious about forcing Israel not to exist.

Most of the chauvinism is reciprocated, though, including that directed at Palestinians. Coptic Christians in Western countries are extremely paranoid about Muslims even though they no longer live in Islamic nations.

Coptic Christians in the West have virtually no power or influence over said countries' foreign policies though. Same thing with Christian Lebanese who left Lebanon in the 80s when their side was clearly losing the civil war: they may be ultra-right-wing but as far as political influence goes they have close to none.

This almost sounds like a statement a corporation or a politician would release in order to pander to liberal millennials.

Am I too paranoid for thinking this guy is literally JIDF?

The talking points of hasbara trolls and politicians have been so deeply ingrained into Israelis/Israel supporters that they no longer really need to pay people to shill for them.

Well you have a point OP, other nations are also shitty, but Israel is particularly overt and callous about it

Think back to that recent Palestine thread:

And others responded with:

Yes, most jews in western world are just like you, actually.

That doesn't change the argument you responded to.

Ex-BDS (again).

The worst thing about modern Israel is arguably how it turned Jews, who were historically very left-wing and involved in communist movements, into right-wing nationalists who frequently attack the Left.

Now, in response, the Left will inject anti-Jewish rhetoric into their political pamphlets and theories every so often, perhaps not overtly but definitely subtly.

And then Leftist Jews will take up some kind of sadomasochistic bullshit in order to deal with the warped notion that being "Jewish" now makes you an oppressor. "Oy vey, I'm Jewish and I shouldn't be, because that's a COLONIAL IDENTITY! Oh no, I oppress the Palestinians every time I celebrate Passover. I'm SUCH AN EEVUL PERSON!" That way of thinking is not only self-centered, but dangerous; as soon as you create a narcissistic wound in yourself, your ego will demand compensation, so you look to degrade others so they may join you in your suffering. That's why a lot of anti-Zionist Jews (from my experience anyway, as someone who is also Jewish) have terrible attitudes and focus most of their vitriol on Jews who are both left-wing and proud to be Jewish.

As far as I'm concerned, the real solution for Leftist Jews is NOT to prop up the Palestinians as a culture/people to imitate, but to return to Judaism's own history of radicalism and antinomianism. Sadomasochism liberates no one.

The difference between Israel and other neoliberal Western States is that Israel is literally colonial LARPing in real time.

t.Israeli

Like other repressive states, Israel’s crimes are well-known to the international community. But unlike those states—because of the geopolitical and economic, and to an extent cultural, interests of the West—Israel gets a free pass.

What foreign diplomats to Israel say in private v. what they say in public about Israel differ greatly.

Yes. The West supports Israel primarily for the purpose of geopolitics, as Israel enables the West to have a permanent foothold in the Middle East.

With that said, the plans to "uproot" Israel and make it Palestine again are terrible. Once again, even if we assume boycotts cause the Israeli economy to crumble (they won't) and the Knesset to collapse into a pile of chaos, everything comes down to how the Palestinians act with given material conditions. If the Palestinians keep fighting each other, as they're doing now, you can expect the Israeli state apparatus will just rebuild itself.

Well, when you think about the psychology of a human being that is a leftist you come to the conclusion they are a masochist.
A right winger is an unsocialized person who wants control over other in order to feel power.
A left winger is a person who wants to change society with "progress" in order to feel power.

A leftwinger despises white, western, civilization because it is successful, they will then excuse non whites and non western people from committing the same or greater sins.


You can not be a person who proclaims to be a left winger and be proud of your race, ethnic group, religion, or gender.

So you are proud you were born with a certain DNA, proud you are of the "chosen people"

You going to be proud of breathing air next?

I'd say Nietzsche definitely applies here. Nietzsche gets tagged as a narcissist himself when, in reality, so much of his project was commentary on the narcissism which emerges from the death of God in modern society. The übermensch was supposed to be a combination of strong will and wholeness. Narcissists are strong-willed but lack that wholeness, which makes them sink into a web of resentment.

Its not that successful anymore. The birth rates in the West have declined and now the West needs to import Muslims which have the highest birth rate.

Allahu Akbar!
Down with Zionist Racism!

Leftism is about emancipation. Rightism is pathological self-abasement to authority. Unspook yrself m8

It's not a left-vs-right thing. It's a psychological thing. Both the left and right are highly narcissistic.

Muslim birth rates in France really aren't much higher than infidel white birth rates.

I've never seen an Algerian-French family with more than three little kids.

Low birth rates have nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics.
A country having a low birth rate is a sign that it is economically successful and first world.
Japan has one of the lowest birthrates in the world.
Iran has a low birth rate ever since for some reason they introduced birth control.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_planning_in_Iran


If it werent for the sanctions maybe iran would be an okay country.

Copcucks? (yes I'm new)

nope. go wear a burka faggot

According to calculations, Blacks should be the majority in the USA by 1962, maybe 1963.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_trap

The Malthusian trap, named after political economist Thomas Robert Malthus, suggests that for most of human history, income was largely stagnant because technological advances and discoveries only resulted in more people, rather than improvements in the standard of living. It is only with the onset of the agricultural revolution in Britain and Holland and the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century that the income per person began to dramatically increase in some countries, and they broke out of the trap;[1][2] it has been shown, however, that the escape from the Malthusian trap can also generate serious political upheavals.[3] It is argued that many countries in tropical Africa still find themselves in the Malthusian trap

Those blacks will convert to Islam as well in time inshallah

Every society looks fucking good compared to Arab society, you can make Kampuchea look good compared to the shitholes in the middle east, does that make any difference though?

In comparison with the rest of the world, Israel is actually a mono-cultural, mono-ethnic, hyper-conservative imperialist ethnostate that is actively attempting to destroy every country around it for monetary gain and literal (as in actual, non-ironic, completely serious) Zionism. The REASON Arab nations are so fucking trash is mostly because Israel wants it that way, when an Arab nation begins to civilize they are always the first ones to start ranting about being threatened, and then in a matter of years they are mysteriously torn apart by some internal strife or are outright invaded by the USA.

You don't have to support Palestine or even the Arab world in general to see Israel is a blight on the face of the Earth for everyone. Supporting Israel is not supporting the "lesser evil" it's just straight-up supporting evil, full stop.

this, tbh

No you can't. No principled leftist will ever support Zionist Israel. Every principled leftist opposes Western European colonialism. If you look at the countries that supported Zionism they were all Western imperialist powers and the countries that former colonized the world. The former colonized countries all opposed Zionist racism along with the Soviet Union.

Israhell is an imposition by the Western imperialists on the middle east. It is a result of colonialism and furthermore it is a colonial power itself. Israel is colonizing Arab land and it has committed numerous atrocities that have been rightful condemned. Zionism is racism.

Socialist Islam best Islam.

Death to the Gulf States. Death to Isreal. Fundies to the Gulags.

This is just the same as "white muh privilege" politics in progressive circles.

Who said "israeli society"? I think they were talking about the government when they said "israel".

L O L

You had me there for a minute OP, nice joke I'm in stitches.

juancole.com/2010/10/israel-declares-for-ethnic-nationalism.html

A lot of leftists are totally spooked over Israel- really, it's just one country among many, but Leninist understandings of "anti-imperialism" and Maoist "third worldist" philosophies have led to people spending inordinate amounts of time on it. Nobody seems to give a shit at all the other former Ottoman holdings being colonial states that were "created" last century, or for the millions of Jews who were forced out of their home through the middle east and north africa when Israel was founded, they only seem to care about things when they can point at and blame The Jew. It's cooked.

My own perspective is that Israel is the most likely country to progress to a libertarian socialist state out of any in the region, outside of Rojava. Israel only exists because of anti-semitism- until anti-semitism is no longer an issue, Israel is going to stick around. Hence, if you're concerned about Israel having shitty foreign policy, you gotta start fighting against anti-semitism because that's what causes it in the first place.

Otherwise this is pretty good: tl;dr if you only pay attention due to the fact Israel is a Western ally your politics are reactionary af. counterpunch.org/2015/10/14/anti-imperialism-2-0-selective-sympathies-dubious-friends/

Rojava is a hell of a drug for anarkiddies

zero multiplied by any number still gives zero

sage this liberal piece of shit

You can't reduce everything fucked in the Middle East to Israel's existence. Sure, it's part of it, but not the whole picture.

The US didn't invade Iraq for Israel's sake, nor did it intervene in Libya for the same purpose. It's all about hegemony and regional control. Israel is not the one pulling the strings in these conflicts, the US is.

I miss him TBH.


I think the real question we should be asking here is not: "Is Zionism super evil or not?" or "do the Palestinians need a land reform long live Mugabe-tier?" but rather: why the fuck are the Palis special snowflakes compared to every other colonized people?

I honestly agree with the person a few threads back who claimed that the left's love of the Palestinians amounts to replacement theology: all of those metaphysical "chosen people" tropes of the Jews have now been bestowed onto the Palestinians. "Palis are the only people who can redeem the world", etc. Why? It's just more noble savage bullshit.

It's a fucking hotbed of corporate interests, which is why criticism of Israel is a third rail in the US. If you own a computer with an Intel processor, it was probably designed there.

Not to mention, Israeli start-ups are flourishing despite BDS claims that their demands for boycotts are "working".

It's just wishful thinking on both sides.

Yeah, its maybe not reasonable to love Israel as a communist but not activly hating it more than all the other capitalist states ie. not giving a fuck about them specifically is ok imo.

I wonder if anti-Holla Forums sees any irony in THIS

pls for the love of Yahweh somebody tell me how to italics