Who Scottish independence here? With Thatcher 2...

Scotland and england together once conquered the fucking world, faggot. We're british, not scottish, english or welsh, just british. Ask anyone from Glasgow to Cardiff and they'll agree

The only good empire is a destroyed one.

You mean a liberal one party state?

Dumb nigger detected. We brought civilization to Africa, Asia, and your shitty yank continent too

So what you're saying is, we need to turn that island into a crater?

No you wanker. We need a united, strong country without all this petty "hurr durr im scuttish not a brit hurr durr" bullshit. Fuck the leftists and fuck the nationalists

The economic case for an independent Scotland has been revived according to Treasury mandarin Nicolas Macpherson who was fiercely critical of independence in 2014. A new Scottish currency is the best way forward.

There is no problem with civic nationalism.

Kek
Except for the 45% and rising who support independence. Don't forget that most people in Scotland consider themselves Scottish or Scottish first than people who consider themselves British.

England can cry for their lost empire. Scotland looks forward

Fuck off, just accept Britain is irrelevant on the world stage against the US and the EU and will continue to be their bitches no matter if we leave.

Scotland doesn't give a shit about this strong country bullshit. We're content in being a small country with no illusions of grandeur

So wait let me get this right, some islander subhumans want to unleash their bowels all over the world again, and only nuclear hellfire can stop them?

There can be no civic nationalism, without an underlying blood and soil idea. It's why there is a scottish nationalist party and not an essex nationalist party.

Please, scotland is nothing without england. The SNP is brainwashing the scots into thinking that EU membership is better than staying part of the United Kingdom, a country they have been part of for centuries.
Got proof, cunt? Most scots I know identify solely as British and rightfully so. I repeat: 1 country, not 4

As opposed to importing millions of real subhumans just because the multiculturalists in EU want us to?

fuck yeah fam, Scottish independence is a pretty good idea
also, it's mild nationalism which is pretty good as it can unite people rather than divide them, with shit like football

Why are nationalists so genocidal?

Read a book, retard.

1. Britain has the 5th largest economy in the world dumbass, never mind our cultural influence on the world
2. Scotland isn't even a country. It's managed to convince itself it is despite centuries of history and the SNP seem hellbent on making scotland even more irrelevant.

How? What 'justifies' nationalism?

I don't mind people following the blood trails back to England's door.

Not a fucking argument. Here you dumb fuck, most Scots consider themselves SCOTTISH
whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/moreno-national-identity-six-answer-options
Also, if there was no Scottish identity, then how have the SNP done so well?

Scotland nothing without England? Over history we've been a net contributor in terms of money given to the union than we've got out of it.

Little Englander BTFO

Neither do you mind the trails following from land where England never set a foot.

Holla Forums pls

What? I'm not a big fan of the shitskins who've been coming in lately, but I'd never support the death of a fellow Brit
Oh really? Tell me about the magnificent technological and cultural achievements of the Ooga Booga tribe of the Congo, or how China managed to make chop sticks out of metal

Yes we are a country. Even in law we're officially a constitutional country. Ever heard of the Declaration of Arbroath or the Scottish Wars of Independence?

The union was incredibly unpopular at the time with the Scottish population

marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/30.htm

You need to go back

Huh, that might just work actually.

6th
independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/france-britain-uk-world-s-fifth-largest-economy-brexit-eu-referendum-a7123761.html

Sure, fuck England.

Either that or becoming the venezuela of europe.

the will of the people tbh
and my subjective view of justice, the Scots have been pretty mistreated so far and this will get them a platform to further voice their position
otherwise, nothing really

Wew lad, i got really BTFO. If you left the UK, your economy would be over. You'd lose the pound, trade with England, and any kind of influence on the world stage

Can I see your scottish passport? Where can I find the scottish embassy in London?
How are those of any relevance today though
Yet it turned out for the better. They got to participate in the greatest empire of all history

England pls

So if someone isn't 14/88% white power British they can't be properly British, in your view?
I'm not talking about physical destruction, necessarily (although there was plenty of that, the clearing of the Highlands, for example). I'm talking about cultural and linguistic genocide. Local identities and cultures crushed in the name of monolithic Britishness.
It's pretty clear you don't know jack shit about history. Trade in your A Wyatt Mann comics for a goddamn hist'ry book, m8.

You're a fucking retard, nationalism kills any leftist revolutionary potential in a people. It's divide and conquer. Independent Scotland sounds romantic but it will immediately allow reactionaries to come to power in your country.

The SNP aren't idiots, they've governed effectively for a long time. Austerity will be required and there won't be a massive backlash against it

If you're not of anglo-saxon or celtic descent, you're not a brit. Its that simple
How is that genocide? I respect local identities, but people must remain British first and foremost. Its only Wales and Scotland that hang on to the delusion of "countryhood"
Not going to answer the question then?

unlike the UK economy which is doing great
worst currency 2016
didn't we just go over this in the EU debate?

ukip pls

Yes, because "nationalist" socialism worked so well the last time.

You can't build near all of your support on the base of austerity policies coming from England, and that scotland therefor needs to be independent and then start implementing austerity yourself because of gaining independence from England.

They aren't idiots, they know what people want to hear, they know how to get elected. They don't know how to rescue their victory from being broken upon the conditions that formed it's base.

Haha, show me your sources which claim that most Scots consider themselves British? There are many more polls which will show similar results to the one I posted. How is that poll biased?

The Declaration of Arbroath and Scottish Wars of Independence show that Scotland was a country for ages before the union. They have as much relevance as you bringing up the empire and Britain's "glorious" past. Let go of you retronationalistic perspective. I support Scottish independence to build a left wing country that doesn't succumb to idiotic racists or authoritarian Tories. You seem to support the union for our shared history. I look forwards, you look backwards

i think i've heard this one before too

Scottish nationalism isn't based on ethnonationalism, it's the hardcore unionists which peddle that shit. The independence movement recognises that shared history but knows Scotland and England have very different political outlooks and we cannot stay together because of these differences. Scots are happy for left wing English people to come to Scotland and participate in this nation.

Left wing nationalism has also worked for Ireland.

The UK will recover lad. We just need to depend less on multinationals and more on building a strong national economy
You're talking about the Euro
Scotland has much more trade with the rest of the UK than it does with the EU. Why would you gamble that away?
So what if I'm UKIP. We literally had the largest empire in human history and we should be proud of it

You're real fucking dense kid. The pound is the worst performer of 2016, falling behind the Argentinian peso

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-08/pound-overtakes-argentine-peso-to-become-2016-s-worst-performer

So? What does having the largest empire have to do with Scottish independence?

How about the majority of Scots who rejected independence? How about the fact that they've stuck with us for centuries and have only considered independence recently?
But it isn't now and thats what matters. Sumeria was a country before but its not here anymore.
Have fun running back to England when your country become a caliphate from all the shitskins you'll import
I'm sorry that I support a country that has relevance and respect on the world stage instead of 4 useless rump states.

Aaaaand the Holla Forumsyp reveals his true colours.
How? They both exist on the same tiny island, what could their people desire /that/ differently to justify independence?
Oh yes, worked out so well indeed.

So are people in the western isles of Scotland and Yorkshire with Scandanavian ancestry British?
What about people of European descent who have been here for a few generations? If the above are properly British, why not people with origins outside Europe who have been part of the society for generations?
Look up the UN definition of genocide.
How are they not proper countries? What determines what makes a proper country or not?
Look up the histories of Ethiopia and the Malian Empire in Africa. Look at the histories of innumerable cultures in Asia. Even your daddy Hitler said East Asia had pasts that outshone that of Europe. Your view of history is downright childish, it seems.

We're not even talking about actual nationalism, just a mild sort of it
In any case, an independent Scotland probably is better than a British one, it still has a good chance of actually having a leftist government

If Scotland became independence, they'd be forgetting about centuries of shared history. Millions of Scots fought in the British military and independence would disrespect their memory. Besides, an independent scotland would be utterly irrelevant

I support it. Atleast scots get a decent life to live while english enjoy their neoliberalism.

Kek, he thinks all those people voted No because they felt British. No, it was because of the economy and how the Better Together campaign promised only a No vote could secure our place in the EU. How do you explain the majority of people supporting independence now that we've voted to leave the EU?

The UK is nothing on the world stage compared to the EU and US. They will continue to be America's bitch and will now be the EU's bitch.

Then what's the fucking point?

Nope
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-argentine-peso-worst-performing-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html

Scotland has much more trade with the rest of the UK than it does with the EU
I meant the argument that you can't trade with your neighbours. If you're actually UKIP you should understand this.

and what have you got to show for it?
I don't consider imperialism to be a selling point

kek

Ireland has a higher GDP per capita ad standard of living than the UK.

Scotland is more left wing that England. Majority in England and Wales voted to leave, Scotland voted to remain in the EU. Scotland has consistently voted for majority Labour for ages, England is much more Conservative

this logic can be applied to the British Empire too

I'm a civic nationalist. How are nationalism and imperialism the same?

Yes, they've had enough anglo-saxon and celtic blood mixed in by this point
Depends on how much British is in them
Indians and caribbeans aren't native to Britain, you idiot. Just because a dog is born in a horse stable doesn't make it a horse
nah
How are they? An country has to be a sovereign area that controls both its internal and external affairs. The whole weird 4 countries bullshit is literally just a terminology issue
And look where Mali and Ethiopia are now. Their people are starving and flooding into Europe. Not so much Kangz now, aren't they? I'll admit asia has been impressive, but they've only become successful because of western influences. Take Japan as an example

The hell is civic nationalism?

It has the words national and socialism in it so they'll definitely kill jews. I don't think that follows

How the fuck does that work? Independence won't disrespect anyone's memory. Did the breakup of the USSR disrespect the memories of all the Soviet soldiers in WWII?

...

They year isn't even over. How can you say it will be the worst currency of the year at this point?
You have it the other way around. Scotland will be utterly irrelevant without England holding you up
A wealthy, respected country whose culture has shaped the world?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Lol, so those thugs bashing darkies are yelling "get out muh country" are respected?

Those scottish soldiers didn't fight for Scotland, they fought for Britain. Listen here yank, here in the UK there is no separate countries: we're 1 country and that is the UK. Independence would invalidate those scottish soldiers' contributions to the empire by ripping their region out of a union they loved dear

Do you know how influential we are compared to our size? Historically, culturally, politically, economically, you name it. And as Europe turns to the right, you'll find that a lot of countries will respect us for leaving this union early on and kicking out the migrants as well

Amerifat here. What even are the cultural differences between Scotland and Britain?

I'm a Scot you retard. Where are you from? Some backwater in Essex or something? Those soldiers are dead and the UK that they so loved is dead too.

I think you mean if you're not one of the beaker people who got here first. They called dibs, everyone else is a foreign invader

I don't see the logic

If you don't know of _any_ non western empires that's on you

Scotland is more left wing and more tolerant

I never said they were, dick.
But they grew up in the culture and are part of the society. How are they not British?
Why is the horse stable the domain of horses alone? Why can't another sort of animal inhabit it?
But that's the one your types use to define muh white power genocide.
So if the UK got conquered it would have no right to reassert its independence?
Because of European and Arab imperialism utterly destroying their societies.
Yes; Colonialism has caused huge problems for the third world.
Nope.
China was an advanced, highly complex society when our bit was a backwater full of white niggers living in smoky huts in the woods. This is what I mean when I say you don't know history. You've imbibed the stormfaggot view of history where everyone but Europe were naked savages eating bugs before the white power supermen showed up. I don't even know where to begin refuting such an absurd position.

Only the dead can know peace.

Nobody is native to Britain. Humans began in Africa. Everyone migrated here at one point or another. This doesn't make any sense.

Do you know how influential Scotland was compared to its size? Even in the days of the empire, Scots were overrepresented in high positions. Scotland also has a great array of inventions and innovations to its name, far more than countries with similar populations.

"Of all small nations, perhaps only the Ancient Greeks have contributed more than the Scots." Do you know who said that? Winston Churchill, a man you no doubt wank over and splurge to while listening to a grainy rendition of "Rule Brittania" on your Walkman as you stomp along with the EDL demonstration outside your local mosque.

These reactionary forces in Europe will die down, Scotland is trending far more leftwards.

Despite what the separatists say, there really is none

We build countries on the wishes of the living, not the dead

The UK is still alive and well unless you idiots decide to separate. Those troops would be proud that their country regained its independence

They will be soon

Times change you regressive right wing nut job

Well its true. We've been here for centuries. How much ties could a paki have to this land?
I'm not saying scottish culture doesn't have its differences, but its about the same difference that yorkshire has to London. I don't see why they get to claim to be a country and deny their British identity

It's delicious.

...

anarkid pls

More than you have in this increasingly progressive and interconnected world.

End yourself, if some chap who's family emigrated from Punjab loves Britain and contributes to this country, who are you to say otherwise? You aren't worth more than somebody else, or have a greater claim to a parcel of land, by virtue of your genetic makeup

We'd rather ally with internationalists than UKIP.
What do you think the point of the EU is?

You answered your own question. They. Aren't. Natives.
It was built for the horses specifically, not the dogs or rats
Yup, trust the globalist, anti-sovereignity organization to be unbiased
It would every right and it did. Except Scotland and Wales aren't conquered countries and would be objectively worse outside the UK
Ooga booga, blame whitey
If it weren't for colonialism, Africa would be even worse
Calm the white guilt lad. The thing is, that was in the past and because china didnt adopt western culture, it fell behind.

The SNP aren't exactly great but I'll take independance if we get to ditch the tories.

A project of capital to increase its control?

Yorkshire should come with us.

Those soldiers identified more as British than scottish. Fighting a bloody world war does that for you. They'd weep if they saw modern Scotland

Not an anarchist, faggot. I just enjoy watching your glorious kingdom fall apart.

Global solidarity will be achieved via the EU before the UK. Scotland will be trading in what we see as a inequitable union for more equitable one.

Think England will be the birth place of the revolution? Let's see how well Corbyn does

Tears of joy.

How many dead soldiers have you talked to? What about the soldiers who died fighting for Scotland's independence against Edward I?

Nations should be built on the desires of the living, not the dead

...

Really, should London and Manchester go it alone as well? What about the center of Scotland, they vote differently than the rest

ITS 2016!!!! My family has been here for generations and generations. The average paki is 3rd generation at most. They aren't even culturally British
I actually do, considering my ancestors spilled their blood for their land. How would a punjabi react if i went over their and claimed their land? They'd cry racism and have me killed

They'd love to see Scotland filled with leftist numales and separatists wanting to break the union they died to protect give me a break.

Thats ancient history. Do you cry that the mongols killed some chinese soldiers? The world wars and the empire are fundamental parts of our recent history and it would be a tragedy if the separatists made it all for nothing

Now if only the same happened to Russia and/or China, I could die a happy man.

I don't think that word means what you think it means

also
Nice

There. Are. No. Natives

and how do you know?

lol

Keep crying, faggot.

There's nothing you can do to stop the shitstorm you created.

Yet you glorify the empire? Why do you get to keep your country for yourself but find it acceptable when Britain invaded most of the world, took their wealth and colonised their land?

Nobody in India complains about Anglo-Indians?

What is culturally British to you? Church attendance is dead and nobody participates in Morris dancing anymore.

...

Fair critique but the people that want back in are doing it to be more international and consider UKIP tribalist

You did a poll? Oh, no. You're talking out your arse.

I do and Scotland would be worse off if it left the UK
I'm sorry, only brown people and negros can be native. All Europeans are just filthy colonizers, even on their own continent.
The west introduced technology and civilization. It's the africans' fault that their too idiotic to make use of them
Look at Japan, then look at China. One adopted western culture and the other didn't. Can you guess which?

You're the only one crying over dead men. History is history, and all history is important. The wars of independence are a huge part of Scottish national ethos and culture, as well as the Jacobite rebellions and Highland clearances.

Two world wars do not invalidate centuries of a distinct Scottish identity or heritage.

Strawman, he said there are no natives. Do you think we'd cry if whiteys immigrated to Asia or Africa. Nobody gives a shit about white South Africans now they're the same as blacks

But the non-ethnically British Europeans are?
Why is being part of a historically extant ethnic group the only thing that determines nationality for you? Are non Indian Americans American? Are white Australians, Canadians etc properly natives to those societies?
Why is the person who builds the building the ultimate decider of which animals go where?
Look up the definition, I think it's valid, including one particular bit;
Creating the conditions that doom the further existence of the group constitutes genocide. Kind of like mass immigration in a society with low birth rates.
Except they are.
Sounds like EU logic, m8.
So you aren't interested in facts, you just want to reiterate moronic Holla Forums memes. Good job.
Not really. Much of Africa had functional, if somewhat backward societies before European colonization. Post colonial Africa has been a disaster, in large part because the colonizing powers gave up direct control to incompetent local governments while maintaining influence.
This has nothing to do with white guilt, you stupid fuck. Pre Roman Northwest Europe was a backwater of light skinned niggers eating gritty bread in smoky hovels while China was the equal of the Mediterranean world.
It stagnated because the emperors wanted to maintain control at the expense of progress. The Chinese nearly embarked on a European style enterprise of trade and colonization. If they had, we'd probably be speaking ping pong right now.

Is it a lone salty Englishman wittering on about muh empire in here?

Because the U.K has actually done some good for this world

Nobody remembers those events. People still feel the effects of the world wars today and nobody can deny the sense of patriotism all Brits got out of it

Seems that way.

As has every country. Without stealing the profits from their colonies the UK would be a shithole, so you have the darkies to thank. The Islamic world made a huge progress in the sciences and India was considered the jewel of the British Empire. Before being colonised, India had 40% of the world's GDP, once the Brits left they had 2%. Britain harmed these countries more than immigrants have and will ever have hurt Britain.

The NHS relies on immigrant workers and even your typical EDL thug can't go a week without a curry takeaway.

And yes, those events are still relevant to today. If you were actually from Scotland you'd know that. The Jacobite rebellions are the direct cause of the sectarian divides in Scotland and Ireland to this day, the effects of the Highland clearances are still felt by the communities living there.

They're of a similar genetic stock and share some western values.
Yes. Redskins didn't create Australia, America, or Canada. The Brits did and the savages have no right to claim that they are natives in a country they don't want to participate in
They aren't even countries, much less conquered. Scotland joined the union willingly
The UK actually gives a shit about scotland though. The EU only cares about furthering its integration project by destroying national sovereignity
Kind of like how monkeys are technically functional. They're stupid and undeveloped, but I suppose they're still "functional".
Nice job repeating the savage germanic meme. It doesn't matter what was, it matters what is. And china is far behind the west.
By refusing to westernize

There's no way to be objective about that. Trying to claim objectivity weakens your credibility.
And you're wrong. If we take with us the banks and all the American businesses that want an English speaking stepping stone to Europe we'll probably be better off than before.

What about a second or third generation Brit who had Western values? If it doesn't matter what it was then why does the empire matter in a discussion about Scottish independence?

Pre-colonial African states were much more functional than these post-colonial zombie entities created by European powers. Imperialism sought to exploit

You have the brits to thank for actually knowing how to run a society
Holy shit, its the Golden Age meme. They literally just copied Greek and Roman work.
For its resources, not its people. The Brits actually knew how to administer and use the wealth of the land
Because of suppressed wages
I thought religion was no longer a part of English culture?

They'd go to Ireland or the Netherlands, dumbass. In fact, now that the UK isn't bogged down by EU regulations, we'll actually become more competitive

Still not a native.
Because people remember the war. You don't see us paying respect to those lost in the Jacobite Rebellions

Because they didn't have to deal with all the modern technology and civilized values a modern country requires.

Did they suddenly declare alcohol to be halal, or do you actually believe this?

They are not at all the same. Empires, the product of imperialism, are comprised of many nations to the detriment of all of them for the benefit of a select imperial elite.

...

I said Scotland not England. This highlights the differences in culture.

Arabs basically invented the field of optics, had a greater understanding of chemistry than the Greeks and preserved this ancient knowledge while white Europeans were rotting in their own piss.

India was an effectively run country under the Mughals for quite some time before Aurangzeb got greedy and used up the empire's funds in his campaigns. India had some of the first public hospitals, and Indian artillery technology surpassed Europe for quite some time (see Mysorean rockets). If not for treachery at the Battle of Plassey then Britain wouldn't even have been able to conquer India. Also note the numerous famines that occurred in India under the Raj due to British mismanagement. They can run a country? Kek, after independence the number of famines have radically dropped in India.

This explains your position. Your opinions have no basis in fact.

Things the UK helped to advance
Well they don't. Do you honestly give more of a shit about the WW2 vet who risked his life to protect his union or some barbarian scot from ages ago

More like Europe butchered the borders leading to intense ethnic conflict and did not provide the necessary bureaucratic institutions required for African countries to transition into independence while they were pulling out, allowing strongmen to take charge.

...

And whites invented the internet, the nuclear bomb, and everything else relevant to the modern world. whats your point?
There it is, the Dark Ages meme
WE WAZ CIVILIZED IN SHIETTT
Yes, we actually made our country rich from India's resources while they still wallow in poverty

...

Or that niggers are too dumb to run a modern country. They have all the tools to develop but they either refuse to use them or are too dumb to use them

Those are things Scots did.

Those who sacrificed their lives for liberty are people I admire but do not in the least inform my opinion on independence. I care about the here and now and this union is destroying Scotland. The political climates of Britain during both world wars are vastly different than to what they are now and it is simply idiotic to revolve your political positions on the feeling of dead men. By your logic we shouldn't criticise Israel because of the Jews who died in the Holocaust.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland didn't even exist during World War I

Both are EU countries that speak English. Why would a politically unstable Scotland be more beneficial?

Literally whenever you're presented with facts you just spout a shitty pol meme and decide you've won the argument. It's entertaining to watch.

Without resorting to emotive language, what's the difference between these two men who killed people? You're glorifying one and denigrating the other. What's the actual difference?

This post more than anything else proves your idiocy. Every time you are presented with something that you cannot refute you resort to petty polspeak.

You are the reason so many of us Scots want to get away. The racist vitriol and moronic delusions of the alt-right will lead to the breakup of your beloved union, and that makes me happier than anything

Name 10 islamic inventions and scientific discoveries.

Then explain why most of them occured in the time before those areas where fully islamified.

Imaginary numbers?

and is it because things that happened more than a few generations ago don't matter? that goes against your claims about immigrants

Seems like the coming venezuela of europe already has a scapegoat.

Scotland is genuinely less racist than England, it's not a scapegoat.

America: invented space travel, painless edible suicide
Asia: technological hot zone
Africa: rapidly growing economic silver age

British Empire: stole everyone else's shit at gunpoint and bragged about it

The irony is that the numerical system you used in that sentence was created by Islamic mathematicians.

they stole that from the germans at the end of ww2
this one is quite good, you should try it

enlightenment, industrial revolution

Who cares about the enlightenment or industrial revolution? Happened too long ago! Only history after 1912 is relevant to the modern day

lol

The Enlightenment goes against everything that justifies the existence of monarchy and imperialism.

This actually sums up the whole thread pretty well.

True. The question is how long that will last until an independent Scotland will implement austerity while being true to their anti-racist sentiment by taking in atleast a 100.000 refugees.

When that's no longer case, we know that westminster ukippers will have infriltrated scotland.

1. That's simply not true.
2. It's like calling cro-magnoms the inventors of jets because they invented fire.

How do you know this?
What are western values?
How do you know people who don't look like you are incapable of 'western values'?
But those countries were created on land stolen from them
lol
People aren't natives of their land because they won't participate in a country created on land stolen from them?
They were by your definition before they were conquered by England
So if the British government decided to give up sovereignty to Brussels, it would constitute Britain joining with Europe willingly?
Kind of like how the UK futhered its integration project by attacking Scottish national sovereignty.
I'm saying there were proper civilizations in Africa before European colonization.
By refusing to colonize, dumbass.
Refusing to westernize as a drawback happened only after the west was on top.

...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu–Arabic_numeral_system

A fine point, which I expect will be memed at pretty forcefully

I think he gave up

I can't tell if that's supposed to be an argument or support for my position

I think you mean
UKIP BTFO
Does this mean we can have independence now?

Damn, I forgot Allah was actually a Hindu deity.

Dailly reminder that Rojava and Catalonia were/are themselves 'nations'.

Wouldn't going back to the EU be going back to porky?

Fair enough. It was created by Indians and spread by Islam. Either way Islam has contributed to science and if you choose not to believe facts that are inconvenient to you, it explains why your political opinions are shit

Yep, but what else are you going to do? UK is porky, EU is porky. We just get to choose our master.

Fucking over higher scale porky is a good thing, I think.

...

I won't deny that there have been muslim scientists, or atleast the precursors to what are today regarded as scientists.

It is however, an enormous lie to suggest islam contributed to science, the intellectual culture that formed the base for those scientists was a left over from the time before islamic conquest, and was destroyed after those areas were more fully islamified.

u wot m80 Allah/Jeovah/Elohim is the Jewish god

Except Spain had its golden age during the Islamic age, while it was a quite irrelevant shithole during the Wisigothic reign.

Erm no, it was destroyed with the Sack of Baghdad by the Mongols and the desecration of the House of Wisdom. Abbasid Mesopotamia was pretty Islamic, fam

Maybe. We got a binary choice to stay or go. For the left wing that meant choosing between
If I trusted our own government it would have been easier to choose. I don't think EU reform is likely. But otoh, staying with a country that wants to revoke the human rights act and destroy the Internet (now unhindered by EU regs) isn't really appealing either

No, not Allah. The numerical system you bellend.

okay it's late and I didn't really understood your reply to that other user, my apologies for being retarded

Fighting Westminster or fighting Brussels; Which is harder?

Both are equally hard fam. You have to get a movement across the whole country to fight against the porky while the Farages, Orbans and Le Pens of the world will blame everything on the brown man boogeyman.

26+6=1

The time's coming, britshit.

International solidarity or local solidarity, which is stronger?

Glory to the IRA

British army get blasted by my provo Armalite

Good taste.

Russia too.

Wasn't the EU undemocratic?

And so you should know that it ended after it became increasingly islamified during the dominance of the magrhebi tribes.

It didn't return to baghdad -islam did- and never did another place like it emerge from this religion that supposedly fosters it.

The logic of islam directly contradicts the foundation of a system of scientific inquiry, which is why those places, in contradiction with places that were equally static in their scientific inquiry such as Korea and Japan, still almost completely lacks such this very day.

It's better than getting a movement across a continent, isn't it?

International solidarity. I believe in solidarity in general, but it's easier to empathize and cooperate with someone a few km away than someone on the other end of the continent.

it ended because all golden ages end, you don't really get a more islamified period in Spanish history than the 10th century. I don't really understand why it is so hard for you to admit that some day in the past some guys who happened to be Muslims did some good stuff with full merit

It's not. You see, this isn't about quantity, but rather about quality. Remember that the Chinese Communist Party fought a war on its own across the whole of China, which was more populated, less communicated and about as large as Europe today.

Fuck, I meant local solidarity is stronger.
Fucking booze did this.

So you think a Europe wide revolution or reformist movement is more viable than numerous national movements?
Also, I don't know the situation of China in the early 20th century, but it's definitely different than modern Europe. The European states and the EU superstructure aren't a dysfunctional warlord government.

Somewhat less viable yet several times more likely to succeed.
And yes, the situation in China was different in that it was harder to establish a large, unified movement across several hundred million people and several million square kilometers of land, with next to no literacy and foreign powers intervening to JUST the country

I suppose Scottish independence is more to do with solidarity for local Scots than part of an international movement.

I genuinely don't know which route would be more effective. It's a really tough question because it's orthogonal to the actual problem. If we got a better country but fucked some other workers would that be good because it sets an example to be followed or bad because we abandoned them?

I wonder what William Wallace would think…

How is a movement less viable yet more likely to succeed? That's contradictory.
Also, my point is that the EU is a network of advanced nation states. Even if the internal propaganda and state apparatus aren't enough to crush a movement in one country, they have the others to come in and do the job for them.

That's shitty logic and you know that.

It is.
A series of local solidarity movements can be a base for greater solidarity.
"well we made the overlords fuck off out of our bit, let's help others do the same."
If other workers got fucked it'd be the fault of the porkies. You can help workers in other countries without submitting to a superstate.

you have no idea how violent football rivalries get.

It's an empirical truth which you cannot deny.

Meant to say "more likely to exist and to be significant"
How is that different from any country outside the EU? Same goes for the state apparatus.
Also, remember that the UK, and especially England, are much more of a reactionary shithole than other European countries. Remember the UK has an opt-out for the European Rights Charter so that they get to keep porkier labour laws than their Continental mates. If you put the UK as a member fully under EU control, at least you dilute this classcuckery with a bit of French/Spaniard/Greek class warfare.
If anything, for pragmatic reasons, you want the UK to have 0 independence from Europe.

I'm going to use this whenever there's another cop killing a poc. "It wasn't the police, he died because all people die, that's an empirical truth". Maybe some leftist will receive a whiplash from the facepalm.

So Syriza or CorbynLabour would do better in a more integrated EU?
Because an independent country has a legal basis for sovereignty. It can resist outside porky intervention on legal grounds. If a country were well integrated into some mad superstate, it'd have a harder time defending its dissent legally, and have fewer institutions of its own to use.
Exactly. You want porkier regimes as they reveal the true nature of the system. In the US and UK you get Corbyn and Sanders. In continential Europe you get AfD, SD and FN.
t. accelerationist

If you're an unironical accelerationist, you obviously want a European UK, too. There's nothing that gets more Porky than a superpower like the EU, the USA or China.
Daily reminder your country doesn't last two years being independent in the event of a glorious Communist revolution, as proven by so many historical examples.
And yes, Syriza, Corbyn's Labour and many others would do better as reformists if they had a European movement.

In union europe, eu reforms you.

t.barrosso, cohn-bendit, syriza

That's what happens with every Reformist party ever, they get reformed by the system. Both inside and outside the EU.

Is that Kurdish Barry Chuckle on the right?

If the people of Europa, weren't faggots and wanted what's actually beneficial to them, Germany wouldn't have Merkel fucking up everything and central Europa wouldn't be going fullfascism.

Problem is, the north doesn't want to change anything and would rather blame the south for being "lazy".

And the south doesn't want to change anything and would rather blame the north for "not letting them have progress".

The fact is, it's not EU being bourgie. It's the people of EU being reactionary idiots.

What beautifully Communist society do you come from for thinking you're in the right position to shit such a post?

Spooky.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_independence

Oh, well. I guess this is now a thing.

I agree in principle, but in terms of international relations and game theory, it's hard to see which will leave us the least fucked.

Oh dear, oh dear

pic related

btw "spook" is not a buzzword for "whatever I do not wish to discuss"
So tell me, how better and more revolutionary are you than the >500 million people living in Europe

Fair enough. I just believe in breaking down large power structures. Look at NGOs, supernational unions and "free trade" agreements. Left-wing organization has to start from the community and go from there.

every time

I don't understand why Scots hate democracy and sovereignty so much that they would have the gall to have an independence referendum. We won, get over it.

There is no problem with the Union, it's only small minded nationalists that would want to break away from it due to some rose tinted vision of days gone by. I mean, you may not have liked it when you joined, but you've been part of it for so long, and the uncertainty of leaving makes it such a very stupid decision that you may as well stay now. Just because you don't feel like your democratically elected representatives represent you does not mean that they aren't democratically elected.

It's not like England seeks to destroy your national identity through an ever closer financial and political union.

lel, we'll be saying the same thing to you soon, cunt.

Holy fuck, I only got a third of the way through this thread before I became bored of the southern English Brexit sperg raging at the thought of his vote dismantling the UK.

The fact you're trying to dig up the corpses of long dead Scottish soldiers to fight this stupid argument speaks volumes for how utterly empty your stance is, and I say this as British English. That said, I'm probably going to jump the border to avoid you dense cunts and become Scottish English soon, or English Scottish, or as I'll be referring to myself in Europe, Scottish.

Such a nation of embarrassing disingenuous dolts. You're not fooling anyone north of Watford.

The important thing to remember for outside observers is that a vote for Scottish independence isn't a vote for nationalism and against internationalism. It's a vote to be part of one country rather than another. One country that will be setting out to be more internationalist than the country it's leaving behind.

You won and then changed the rules significantly. We voted to remain part of the UK and part of the EU. All of that has changed since then.

Come on now. Even if you don't agree with Scottish independence, you can't, with a straight face, claim that the system by which we vote for MPs is flawless. If we had a more proportional system, it'd certainly help persuade people to stay, but the system we have currently disenfranchises a huge amount of people and leads directly to the kind of reactionary thinking we're seeing running the show in the form of UKIP and the Tories.

Plus, the uncertainty of leaving just became a lot less unappealing when staying in the UK is much less uncertain than it was.

...

I didn't actually write any of it with a straight face. I was drawing parallels between the UK's relationship to the EU and Scotland's relationship to the UK, with deliberate emphasis on the hypocrisy of Brexit's rhetoric.

You got me. You got me real good.

I shouldn't try to grasp satire at 5 in the morning.

shit, you got me too. this line especially because i've seen so many people unironically calling for another eu ref