How should the vangaurd be structured?

Should bureaucracy be allowed? Could direct democracy still lead to bureaucracy?

we should have completely direct democracy, no hierarchy or leadership and let any faggot with a mouth and a voice speak and direct the vanguard towards their personal agenda while ignoring the class struggle like OWS or nuit debout and let the movement fail miserably so anarkiddies can stop with their idealistic inefficient catch-all bullshit and start having some actual functioning organization.

/thread

All power to the soviets!

Like the Soviet Union but with more gulags and purges.

jk, it should be a direct democracy

hahaha holy shit you literally summed up why is distanced myself from anarchism

So an anarchist militia?

So what are you going to do when the Chairman decides that the logically developed plan for socialism that was agreed upon before is lame, comes up with his own nonsensical, nationally biased "plan" and ends up murdering hundreds of thousands of people when it invariably fails by deviating from what makes socialist thought a reasonable position to advocate?

"Realize" that socialism is inherently doomed and settle for social democracy before sliding back into neoliberal hegemony?

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Obviously it's not a literal phrase, but this has never mattered. Opportunists don't care about principles.

You'll have bureaucracy in a successful vanguard regardless of whether people want it 'allowed' or not. Direct democracy should be used for deciding policy support and who gets into what positions, but all revolutionary action done by the party should be imposed in a top-down unilateral way. Democracy in debate, unity in action.

i totally agree

Democratic centralism within the vanguard. Horizontalism is useless anarchist trash, bureaucratic controll leads to shit theory, domination by one clique, and inevitably splitting or degeneration into (liberalism|ultraleftism > pick one).

Have a constantly rotating 'bureaucracy', When everyone's a bureaucrat, nobody is.

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fuck off

How do we prevent officials in these positions from implementing capitalist reforms like the NEP? Should instant recall elections be able to take place?

bruh are you like a tankie hegelian?

wew

"democracy in debate, unity in action" is a very tankie slogan fam

Soviet Union did have quite a bit of direct democracy, you know.

What is a "vanguard"?
Vanguard group of 100-200 people is one thing.
Vanguard party of 10-20 thousand people is another thing.
Vanguard state of 10-20 million people (or more) is a third thing.

You can't honestly expect to structure all of them similarly.

Obviously, direct democracy will be dominant in group, while party (not to mention state) will not be able to function without some form of bureaucracy.

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it's not guilt by association when it's literally the same belief expressed in literally the same way

Is not the association of the phrase that bothers me, it's that you would assume I agree with other aspects of those regimes.

well I didn't accuse you of supporting gulags or whatever, I just said tankie because you used a tankie slogan

So … Does anyone here actually have any practical thoughts on organizing shit? For example, what would be modern equivalent of Taylor?

Or are we being purely idealistic?

To clarify, I'm not who you originally replied to sorry.

The phrase is an endorsement of democratic centralism, but you seem to be implying that being a supporter alone qualifies one to be a supporter of regimes that supported democratic centralism as well. I'm saying that you can support democratic centralism and still be critical of these regimes.

Instant recall would be what I'd propose, yes. As well as a direct tying of the wages of elected officials to those who elected them. Keeps them accountable.

Here, though, we're no longer talking about the Vanguard, i.e. an advanced section of the working class working to bring about the revolution, but instead about the workings of a post-revolutionary society, and we can't really make concrete prescriptions for that, only recommendations/predictions based on the body of theory. It'll be up to whomever's around when the revolution succeeds to take the theory we've helped preserve and advance, and apply it to whatever their material conditions are, making changes & advances as needed.