If we can all agree that orthodox Sunni Islam can be a religion of emancipation...

Islam can be progressive, but it isnt inherently progressive, and the inmense majority of the islamic practice today is passive towards opression at best and opressive itself in most cases. Just because a 'minority' practives a religion or a cult doesnt mean it is progressive.

So can Judaism.

But both religions can leave space for progressive thinking, as we've seen before.

Either way, the left has to do a lot of mental gymnastics when it claims Islamic doctrine is inherently socialist and egalitarian whereas Jewish doctrine is not.

...

Are you joking?
Which aspect of Islam exactly is it that you find uniquely Emancipative?

no. Marxism is rooted in christianity.
1) Marx while being jewish in blood, he was raised a catholic so that meme is literally Holla Forums tier shitpost.
2) Christianity finds being rich inherently immoral
while Judaism finds being poor = being lazy.
3) Capitalism was the system that was based on the jewish merchants in an age where it was immoral for a christian to even have property.
4) They say Lenin is a jew, actually 1/8 Jewish and from a family (Blank family) where it's Primogeniture, Moshe Itzkovich Blank was converted to Orthodox Christianity after years of fighting for the removal of the special rights jews were getting for their faith in the czarist Russia (anti-judaism jew).

hasids where literally reactionaries that wanted return to tradition because hellenism was "degenerate". Reminds you of something?

Well Islam is the only ideology that's actively fighting imperialism in the modern world. If Islam really was so compatible with capitalism, why are neoliberals doing everything they can to destroy it or assimilate it?

Islam does this too though. There is a reason why Muslims have historically done very well in western capitalist societies and continue to do so (USA and Canada specifically). Even in Europe, you see kebab shops and hijab kiosks pop up everywhere.

Jesus christ I assumed this was a troll. But here we are, 20 comments in and this most ludicrous of assertions goes unchallenged. I assume you've got a thread for this so I don't derail here?

Critical Theory is 100% Jewish influenced and even academics admit this.

youtube.com/watch?v=CYl845GORmM

Malcolm X and Ali Shariati are examples of Islam's revolutionary potential. Islam has always been the religion of the poor, orphans, stateless and disadvantaged. You can't say that about Judaism, which has always been an elitist religion, or Christianity which has always been governed by the laws of a church.

There are several examples of Hasidic teachers attacking the lust for money and instructing their followers live simple lives devoid of material pleasures.

Muhammad was literally a merchant-turned warlord-turned pope. Sure, you could say the same about Moses or David, but no Jew will ever tell you Moses or David was the perfect example of a perfect man to be imitated for all time. The Tanakh tells of instances where both Moses and David sinned, for example.

Both Judaism and Islam have long histories of being dominated by scholars, so your comparison is basically a wash.

Islam is the religion of the poor because it preys on the poor. Mohammad founded the religion to build himself a fucking army. Islam is all about conquest. It cannot co-exist.

Modern islam has set itself up as the catch all opposition to the west. As long as you're brown you'll be accepted. Those at the top of Islam though know fine well that what they are doing is conquest. They send people out recruiting to poor ethnic neighbourhoods recruiting. You'd be mad to think they do this with the individual in mind.

Any 'oppression' at the hands of the white man that islam experiences is part of a two way street of violence that has existed as long as Islam itself.

Fuck 800 AD the muzzies were rich, we were poor. They didn't seek to liberate us,. They wanted us as literal slaves.

Any religion can be a religion of anything.
Religious people are extremely skilled in mental gymnastics and turning their backbones into pretzels.

...

Please tell me you're trolling. I hear all these things from extremely far right internet people about left wingers being on the side of Islmaists and I always assumed it was bullshit like most of the other stuff they make up. Obviously I'm new to this board.
You have Islamist monarchs allied to the biggest imperial powers right now and having their existence in power tied to imperial protection. I'm not sure we live on the same planet at this point.
Historically after Islam swallowed the Persian empire and took bites off the Roman one, it established itself as an imperialist power of oppression and exploitation. I'm not sure how you can view an imperialistic ideology of worldwide theocracy as an emancipation.
Islam is literally capitalism. It preaches that the distribution of wealth as it is, is the result of god's will and should be accepted and respected as it is, and that one should be content with it.
Christianity has much more anti-capitalist potential in it.

I'm not sure why religion is a topic of discussion on a leftist board in this manner. Isn't the left supposed to be 100% secular and against any movements based on traditional religious superstition?

Name me a single time when RELIGIOUS Jews have used their religion as a backbone to fight imperialism. Just one. single. time. Labor Zionists don't count given as they're settler colonials.

Funny because Muhammad advocated freeing slaves once wartime was over AND demanded slaves be treated with equal respect. No one is a slave in Allah's eyes.

Islam is not just a religion for brown people. It's a religion for everyone. It stresses the equality of all which is something Judaism doesn't do. Even Christianity is more hierarchical as it gives muh privilege to believers over non-believers.

How am I brainwashed?

Islam forbids monarchies. NO ONE is just allowed to call himself a king. Caliphs weren't kings but democratically elected leaders who were elected based solely on their merit and willingness to give back to the community. That's how Islamic governance is.

Islam is entirely anti-capitalist. Usury is strictly forbidden and you can't have capitalism without usury.

only jews believe that, because zionists want to culturally appropriate everything a 1 drop blood jew has done

The fact that if you're to follow 100% any religion, only judaism would let you be a capitalist.

I guess so.

Neither Islam nor Christianity opposes usury on land.

Capitalism can't be reduced to usury on money.

marxists.org/reference/archive/benjamin/1940/history.htm

Economism may not be imperialism, but it's fucked up nonetheless.

These threads are dumb.

I didn't call you that.
Give me a single one who was fairly 'democratically elected'.
What does it matter what they were called? They behaved as monarchs and emperors and it would make no difference if they called themselves beggars.
>Islam is entirely anti-capitalist. Usury is strictly forbidden and you can't have capitalism without usury.
How come the Muslim conquerors were given property rights to the lands they invaded and have its inhabitants work in slave or peasant conditions to pay them taxes if it's an anti-capitalist ideology?
Are you a secular? Why do you have an affection for Islamism?

Islam is big on victim-blaming. If a Muslim girl gets raped, she gets blamed for her own rape, because it's assumed her actions were enough to bring down an otherwise honourable man. Not only that, but her family gets blamed for having raised her in such a way, so her rape brings shame unto her family as well. And you wonder where honour killings come from.

Fuck no. Nice b8, m8.

what is Dhimmi tax? Islam is 100% about dominance.

Wow, so anti-imperialist.
Very revolution.

Lol

Dhimmi tax was an act of mercy and tolerance you fat orientalist fuck. And Saudi and ISIS aren't real Islam. ISIS disobeys nearly every Islamic rule of war and KSA is corrupt as fuck.

Are you an Islamist?
Why haven't the mods sent you to the gulag yet?

*sniff* and so on.

One of these days we will get rapists claiming it was not real sex.

/thread

Jeez. Religion never was, never is and never will be emancipatory in the whole sense of the word. It will continuously submit its adherents to a form or another of ecclesiarchy, effectively having them measure their own actions and their relation to the world at large through their dogmatic beliefs, just like most other spooks.

I find it absurd that a so-called revolutionary would even propose such a thing, knowing well that religion is used today to legitimize absolutely everything you supposedly despise, such as Monarchism, Imperialism, slavery, racism, sexism and so on… I find this lack of consistency hysterical, really! at some point I almost hessitate to continue typing this for the sheer comedical value of these contradictory stances of yours.

To go ahead and say "oh but religions also promote cooperation and this and that other virtue, and jesus was a communist, we got only to get rid of those aspects of religious dogma and all will be well…" That's the equivalent of SocDem compromising, whitewashing capitalism to give it a human face, or whitewashing socialism to give it a human face or whatever is it that these whimpy liberals in disguise do, and again: This is self-defeating, are you a revolutionary? are you a radical? then don't come to people peddling these moderate and contradictory stances… maybe you could reevaluate your systems and decide that you don't have what it takes and that you're just a tepid normalfag; with that on your mind at least you become more self-servingly genuine.

You are personally religious? good for you if that's your thing, proselytize if you will… but don't give me this "religion is emancipatory" that's a crock of shit.

The only way you can abolish Zionism and its apartheid system is through a Liberation Judaism.

Religious Jews are reproducing like bunnies, and soon enough Israel's population will be majority Orthodox, many of them religious Zionists.

So what do you do, especially when the liberation of the Palestinians is necessarily for the end of global imperialism (and capitalism)? You have to give these people something to replace their heavily nationalisms, and given their religious sensibilities, it will probably have to be religious in nature.

You can't just defeat Zionism with guns. That's why Palestinian resistance is almost entirely made up of BDS right now. In South Africa, whites were never more than 20% of the population and could easily be defeated. In Israel/Palestine, about half the population between the river and the sea are Jews, and the Jewish pop. keeps increasing while Palestinians keep migrating to the West.

I would really, really love to know what alternative can be proposed if a radical religious Judaism is out of the question.

Bullshit, You can defeat anything with enough guns, the problem of the palestinians is and has always been that Hamas is too weak to force Israel's into hard negotiations.

Should Israel find itself no longer supported by the west, specifically the U.S. *perhaps* Hamas would be able to put enough pressure on Israel to lead them to the bargaining table.

So long as Israel has the clear upper hand, there is no reason why a -say- two state solution would ever even be seriously considered by the zionist leadership. The only thing keeping them from razing Cisjordan is their fear of completely overturning public opinion on themselves, which is becoming increasingly less excellent for them on the judicial level, since they're lobying for laws criminalizing "anti-semitism" everywhere.

It is risible to say that this matter will be solved by diplomacy, appealing to the better nature of Jews is as pointless as appealing ISIS for mercy. So long as those backing Israel remain biased towards them, brown people will continue to get blown the fuck up by the IDF knock-knock tactics.

kek.

Bibi is reaching out to Russia now, boy.

Even if Israel loses American support, it can find a way to suck up to BRICS.

I went to highschool where Jews made up about 40% of the student population. Some of them were fine, but in general they were pretty classcucked/bourgie. More so then your average christfag, I'd say. Although, historically, this has not been the case at all. It's a shame, really.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_left
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_anarchism

Thank you.

Oh yeeeeah, that. well, assuming BRICS does exactly the same turning of the blind eye, then the situation doesn't change much, does it?

You can't defeat Zionism with guns or bombs. Period. The Palestinians recognize this hence why they're demanding that white people boycott Israel in every way imaginable (even to the point where you're considered an "ideological colonizer" if you enjoy music by an Israeli artist).

Hamas can't do shit even if Israel wasn't being given billions in aid by the US. Hamas' weapons consist of antiques.

I beg to dissagree, you could if you had enough of them.

That's soon to be illegal in most of the free world son, that could land you time in the slammer!

Sure they can, if the support of the west waned on Israel (not just economical) Hamas has a very tiny shot of making some sort of progress into a two state solution, even if that's not their goal.

But we're discussing highly hypothetical scenarios here, and even then I don't really give much of a shit one way or the other. Sure it'd be nice to see Palestine vindicated but that's a long shot.

Which the Palestinians don't and aren't getting anytime soon. Not to mention most Palestinians are sick of the fighting and have given up on military struggle.

Not necessarily. BDS is still going strong despite repression.

So is Islam.
So does Islam.
So does Islam.
So does Islam.
So does Islam.
So does Islam.
Golly gee, so does Islam!

Only a handful of sects repeat that prayer.

...

There is literally nothing wrong with Orthodox Judaism from a leftist perspective. Without a temple and a truly Jewish state run according to the will of G_d, the 613 Commandments are really nothing but virtue ethics, or a blueprint on how to be close to the Holy One (blessed be He). We believe in the tikkun, or the restoration of all things in Creation back to their spiritual source. There isn't a single rabbi today who believes people should be executed for working on Shabbat, or that women on their periods should be excluded from society. Nor do we believe that capitalism ought to exist given as capitalism is man-made, not G_d-made and actually violates many things Judaism speaks out against.

Nice response…

Religion is a form of mental oppression.

Growing up means becoming an atheist and throwing off the chains.

You want an emancipatory 'religion'? Throw out the religion, replace it with socialist and communist philosophy. You don't need brainwashing cult bullshit. Throw it out.

See:

Doesn't change a damn thing I said.

Not even that user, but that's all PURE IDEOLOGY!

Malcom X was 3edgy5me.
ML King was far better. He was like "I want us to see beyond color". M X was all about "le color is le ideology".

Malcolm X was a fucking BLACK NAZI before he came around right before he was taken out.

I always thought that was a meme Holla Forums tried to push here to harvest screencaps. I still do.

Nah.

So much wrong in one sentance. Particularly 'orientalist'. I cannot fathom where you got that from?

Kek. funfact. The location of the first american killed by ISIS is significant. It is significant in that it is the location predicted by Mohammad as being the first major battle between the true muslis and the 'armies of Rome'. It gets better. After this battle with Rome, the true muslims conquer Istanbul and Jerusalem before Jebus comes down fro heaven with a flaming spear and the final battle begins.

ISIS didn't make this up. It's right there in their books. ISIS IS the literal interpretation of Islam. Islam has been since its inception about dominance. Mohammad (as well as a pedo) was a warlord. The first thing he did with enough men was sack a fucking city. Then Islam expanded to cover most of the Arabian peninsula over the next 40 years.

Now you can make the case that Islam came about to fight Roman imperialism . But it has evolved into something much worse.

...

...

...

Because Leftists fetishize the oppressed, so for them Islam is the "good" religion whereas Judaism is the religion of eevul white zionist settler colonials.

The hilarious thing is, the Left shows of its own bigotry of low expectations every time it assumes Jews will re-write their religion to fit with modern times whereas expecting Muslims to do so is "orientalist". Kek

...

No.

youtube.com/watch?v=d5iTW4ReHs4

I reject the premise. A religion literally named "submission" is a reactionary force, not an emancipatory one. And Judaism isn't much different in that regard - read the Torah, it's all about slavish devotion to a god.

Muslims are far more religious today than in the decolonization era *because* they reject socialism today, while the secularist Muslims who led decolonization strugggles were by and large socialists.

You win over Islamists the same way you win over nationalists, neoliberals, and members of other reactionary ideologies; by causing them to cease supporting said ideologies. Retreating from socialist principles to become more palatable to them is nothing more than surrender.

Calling religion a spook is too nice.Religion is a fucking scam.

Many religions emphasize action in this world FOR THE SAKE of being rewarded in the next one.

I hate anglos

this

Ever heard of "tikkun olam" you fucking autist?

More than you hate yourself?