Manly Socialism

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wrong place user

youtube.com/watch?v=ZKVhrzhAI8I

So I don't die of depression before I reach my thirties

ey, my parents considered naming me pyotr
stop being an insulting faggot

1. The purges killed many competent people… not all mind you, but enough irreplaceable talent was lost that it scarred USSR forever. A far more sensible solution would be controlling them through hostages or putting them to work in camps, which doesn't WASTE TALENT. If Stalin had not done this there is a good chance Barbarossa would have been a failure and the Winter War would have ended with cession of the whole of Finland to USSR.
2. One of their major mistakes is not investing enough into science, or trying to selectively invest only in "fields that were useful". This left them playing catchup when new technologies were introduced in the west. A good example is Stalin banning the production of the Borovkov-Florov D model, which would have given USSR such a ridiculous air dominance over Europe that they would have easily taken the continent.
3. USSR attempted to force farmer communes which led to a collapse of their agriculture and their reliance on western food aid. These things cannot be forced! Communes either develop naturally or they develop as a natural consequence of the dialectic, if they are forced too soon there must be a collapse.
4. Zero democracy or accountability in the leaders of the country, which leads to dunces like Brezhnev without any way to get rid of him short of assasination. The USSR was badly in need of American style checks-and-balances in the state, although it's a tossup if it could have done it. Even if you're 100% certain that you are the best leader for the new nation, the guy that follows you might not be, so make sure the country can kick him out if needed.
5. The USSR had two periods during which it could have taken Europe - in 1949 conventionally, and in 1974 nuclearly. They knew they could do it both times, and the leaders refused to do it both times because they were simply too comfortable. The USSR was too defensive to survive, it did not expand or make connections globally NEARLY at the rate of competing superpowers like USA. As the old Russian chess proverb goes, more mistakes are possible on defense than on offense.

These are prevailing ideas on "what if" analyses from America itself, a change on any one of these points would have made USSR a serious cultural competitor to USA.

So remember kids, when the revolution comes, don't slaughter all the bourgeois. Put them in labor camps for their "safety", and take advantage of their talents.

So this is literally after they lost half of their GDP and entered a depression worse than the 1920s.

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Because it wasn't socialist.
fite me

The proletarian state had control of the means of production. So, yes it was.

The proletariat were not the state. It was intentional to prevent the bourgeois moralisms still pervasive from seizing control of the party

The state acted in the name of the proletariat, because its leaders were the leaders of the workers.

Claiming they "acted in the name of" is a disingenuous way of getting around the fact that the state party was not the proletariat. It might have become so eventually, but for what it was when it was, it was not.

There's no proletariat without the bourgeoisie, comrade.

At last i truly see, so when the capitalists lead the workers it's actually communism and we've been living in it all this time and when the proletariat vote for bourgouise puppets it's socialism.

It can never be. The proletariat is an abstract concept lumping together those who mainly subsist by selling their labor power to capitalists.

None of this matters. What matters is that instead of your surplus value going to capitalists it would instead go to the general welfare in providing programs for everyone to enjoy, such as the space program.

So, the state was proletarian because it suppressed the bourgeoisie forces and put the surplus above subsistence towards things that would benefit "society as a whole".

Yeah sure man live your fantasy.
But if You want to wake up, research how real socialism really was.

Whooo boy. Now we can't give the workers direct control over the MoP because they belong to an abstract group. You guys really will say anything to justify keeping the workers from getting control.

So social democracy funded by capital gains taxes is just as good as socialism.

What would that even mean though? If workers directly voted on every single thing ever, it would be really inefficient and chaotic.

I know you anarchists like recallable delegates and stuff, but fixed representatives are better, because it maintains continuity and allows the leadership to make rational decisions based on long term planning.

Well, it's not social democracy, because there is no democracy, and there's no bourgeoisie to compromise with, because they're all in the gulag or heavily suppressed.

If you want representatives, then you can make it a representative non-republican democracy where people can give their representatives their vote directly to use. If there are no representatives that you want your vote to go to you can vote on issues directly. At such a point you don't need to even have "recallable delegates" because people who don't have confidence in one delegate or another can simply choose to not give them the power of their vote. It doesn't require everyone to be knowledgeable on every issue nor does it require constant legal involvement from everyone but it ensures that nobody's votes are "wasted".

Maybe we could also come up with an economic system where there's no democracy to get in the way. Hmmm….

Must… Not… Respond…
fuck… can't… contain… inner tankie…
all is lost…

I don't see how purged army officers could have helped the war effort.
Most likely they would have welcomed their new nazi overlords, see Vlasov.

And anyway, what's with all these sentiments? Muh poor talented army bureaucrats…

You gotta be fucking kidding me…
SU invested all it can in science, and fundamental science in particular.

And it payed back. How else do you think they were able into space?
Or how else they were able to build one of the fastest supercomputers of the time, BESM-6 (mailcom.com/besm6/)?

Is your surname Bukharin, by any chance?

Anyway, SU needed forced industrialization, and for that you need to have human recources.
And where can you get them in agrarian country? Right, you can get them from countryside.
But for that you need to increase productivity of labour in the agrarian sector, so it can feed increased urban population.
How can you do this? Right, you mechanize agriculture.
How can you do mechanization fast? Right, you do it centrally.

Yeah, SU as a system needed negative feedback badly.
But American democracy is shit, tho.

If SU did not fucked up it's economic policy, it would have been victorious even witout all out war.

And this is why they failed. The officers that replaced them said the right words and pretended to have the right socialist zeal, but they lacked competence. It makes a shitton more sense to take the money away from the bourgeois, but keep them alive and working for the state.

The bourgeois are the most educated people in pre-socialist societies, because they're the ones who had all the power. By killing them you're throwing away all the training they paid for, and thus throwing away all the capital that paid for their training. This capital belongs to the worker class, you have no right to throw it away because "muh feels".

It's not about sentiments, it's about facts. For fucks sake even the Nazis knew enough to take advantage of Jewish labor, they didn't just shoot them and bury them in a ditch. If you're going to run a movement based on sentiment instead of practicality, it's going to be a shit fucking movement.

Nah, it didn't. Computers were necessary for signals intelligence, and the space race was about improving delivery systems (and later spying). If you want I can list specific cases that were denied funding for not being useful in some way, usually a project needed military purpose to be funded.

Agree.
Disagree. Human resources are not a zero sum game, America did the same thing by improving the birth rate in the coutnryside and offering cheap education in the urban areas. As a result farming families naturally sent a portion of their kids off to be educated, while keeping a portion of the children on the farm to provide food for the cities.
The problem isn't in centralized mechanization, the problem is in treating people as a zero sum game and removing labor faster than mechanization could replace it.

Agree. Was mostly talking about American constitution and the three branch system. The three constitutions USSR actually had were all designed to be powerless platitudes, if USSR had a proper communist constitution which split the government into executive, legislative and judicial bodies…. it might have lasted longer due to the stabilization effect of the three branches acting on one another.

You have to think of war as part of the economic policy. In a capitalist state these concepts are separated, whereas in a communist state they are both part of the same whole, and aimed at the same goal (the spread of socialism).

t. Vladmir Lenin

So? We can't be manly worker men without cute girly girls to cuddle. Duh.

Reliance on symbology is for the weak.

/r/ing Big Bill Haywood quotes

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true

You think Che was a good person? He was a white supremacist, he committed genocide, he locked people up for listening to rock music, he's the antithesis of everything you morons claim to champion. Your cognitive dissonance is impressive

Being manly is having goals in life, raising children, being working class etc.

If you aspire to those things and see them as positive/good then you are already part socialist.

The liberals have destroyed this aspiration for us by either attacking gender relations or seeing heterosexuality as the true abnormality. A socialism that hates the working class, is not a real socialism at all.

He made those comments before he became a communist you dumb faggot.

Thanks for posting that comic. Fukken saved.

He wasn't even white.

Yes he was you ingrate, he was Spanish

Kay I guess that makes him a good person

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Baseless claim. You can't know for sure if military cadres competent or not until war breaks out.
Defeat in the initial stage of war was a strategic defeat. It's pretty obvious that soviets were in the state of mobilization when germans attacked.
And I really doubt that mobilization could have been completed earlier, not with the intelligence that stavka had.

As to the usage of professionals, soviets used tsarist military cadres in civil war. Hell, one half of tsarist officer cadres were on the red's side and other half on the white's.
Plus, academics that didn't run away, were treated fine, and retained their positions, as long as they didn't show hostile behavior.

Yes, please, provide examples, so we can talk about concrete subjects.

But it would have been a slow process.
And besides, what to do with kulaks in countryside?
In time they would have accumulated more and more capital, and so their influence would grow.
They are hostile elements and they know it. Socialist state just can't leave them to themselves.

I doubt it. In the 80s SU was a walking dead anyway.

Literally Holla Forums logic. pls stop

That's a funny accusation! I like you.

Have you read any books pertaining to the Winter War? The purge is quoted as the #1 reason for the poor performance of Soviet army.

Statism: an Infantile Disorder

Yeah, except that the anarchists got their asses kicked in the end, and the Soviet Union became a superpower under Stalin's leadership and only declined when it moved away from his policies.

Nice try though.

Authority isn't bad, you airhead. Bourgeois authority is bad.

kys

Holla Forums thinks all leftists are scrawny little weak faggots, but it doesn't just affect right wingers. They spread a meme that demoralizes the left, and vacates it of masculine men. Then bourgeois idpol SJW entryists get in and start talking about brocialism further hollowing out the movement.

Working people are tough. The socialist realism propaganda of the Soviet Union emphasized this. It's time to emphasize this again with strong men and beautiful women. People are attracted to and inspired by well formed people who look capable.

We also need muscle for bashing the fash.

If you want to be ruled by whoever the most swollen mongoloid on the block happens to be, I'm pretty sure we have an ancap board. Take your projection and closet case muscleman fantasies there tyvm.

Where did I say that? I think you're the one projecting. We're not talking about oiled up bodybuilders in g strings here m8. :^)

1: No one likes weakness and losers, and that is what the left has been portrayed as. Psychologically, we need to have more an image of strength because it makes us more steely and able to do what is necessary without mercy, and it also makes for good propaganda value because people like heroism.

2: Strength and fitness is also better for winning battles against the fascists on the street, and in actual war (all infantrymen are fitter and tougher than the general populace). We aren't really talking roid freaks, but at least matching the fash for muscle will help deal with the fact that they do get big guys with them who do weightlifting and MMA. Doing the same will help us counter them. It's retarded to argue that being strong and fit is right wing, because that's exactly what they want you to think, and average people to believe.

I live in Germany so I don't need to "street fight" with fascists. Our government has sane laws and we throw the stupid fucks in prison if they open their inbred mouths.

If necessity ever forced the issue I'd be smart and bring friends and weapons instead of obsessing over some tired romanticist pap about solitary heroes with giant biceps.

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These.
You need to be able to fight and we must counter the image of leftists as scrawny weakshits. Reactionaries are quick to exploit this stereotype and portray everything left-wing as effete and cowardly.

Pathetic.
Jesus Christ.

Explain to me why I need to counter an image that only fascists find unappealing?

Unlike you I've actually been in more or less the situation you're describing. There was some schizo skinhead wannabe on my realschule campus who thought he was hot shit. We got ten guys together and beat the shit out of him for nearly an hour. The little fucker dropped out and we never heard from him again. He was probably a delusional gym rat like you.

Numbers+weapons>macho man bullshit

Maybe in your country, lol.
I'll bet you're proud of yourself for that one.
This only works if the other side lack numbers and/or weapons. A group of competent fighters who aren't weakshits are worth 10 people in awful shape who don't know how to fight.
I'm nothing of the sort. But I know how to fight and I exercise.

I am proud of it. If he was a skinhead at 14 who knows what sort of scum he'll be at 20. Fuck him. What do you think "bash the fash" means kamerad?

What you do with your hobbies is your business, but the idea that we need to prove to fascists how macho we are reeks of insecurity? If you don't hit the gym are you afraid you might start having scary thoughts about other men? Give in. You might like it.

Where did I say that? I think you're the one projecting. We're not talking about oiled up bodybuilders in g strings here m8. :^)

1: No one likes weakness and losers, and that is what the left has been portrayed as. Psychologically, we need to have more an image of strength because it makes us more steely and able to do what is necessary without mercy, and it also makes for good propaganda value because people like heroism.

2: Strength and fitness is also better for winning battles against the fascists on the street, and in actual war (all infantrymen are fitter and tougher than the general populace). We aren't really talking roid freaks, but at least matching the fash for muscle will help deal with the fact that they do get big guys with them who do weightlifting and MMA. Doing the same will help us counter them. It's retarded to argue that being strong and fit is right wing, because that's exactly what they want you to think, and average people to believe.>I'd be smart and bring friends and weapons instead of obsessing over some tired romanticist pap about solitary heroes with giant biceps.

You're a fucking retard. Melee weapons are more effective when wielded by big guys in street fights, even including knives.

Also, when we're talking soldiers, they have to be tough and have lots of stamina, so we aren't saying that everyone has to be a roid freak, just tough and steely in body and mind.

Big muscle guys for street fights, and smaller but tough soldiers who can run for a long time with heavy packs for actual warfare. I bet you are one of these fucking ignorant shits who things physicality doesn't matter in modern war, and all you to is point a gun in the right direction to win.

Holla Forums shat on my post.

it should be just this bit:

You're a fucking retard. Melee weapons are more effective when wielded by big guys in street fights, even including knives.

Also, when we're talking soldiers, they have to be tough and have lots of stamina, so we aren't saying that everyone has to be a roid freak, just tough and steely in body and mind.

Big muscle guys for street fights, and smaller but tough soldiers who can run for a long time with heavy packs for actual warfare. I bet you are one of these fucking ignorant shits who things physicality doesn't matter in modern war, and all you to is point a gun in the right direction to win.

You know that the communists were fighting in the street with the nazis last time?

So, you are not prepared for the fascists to try and take over the state, and you are happy with the bourgeois capitalist state so long as its liberal?

What kind of fucking revolutionary are you?

Getting fit is more something one should do for oneself tbqh.
Plus being in good shape help you thinking.
Wasn't some thread about "self revolution" recently?

Mac, get off leftypol and back to halfchan's fit.

Hold the fucking phone! this is new, top fucking kek.

So i guess OP reasoning is something like pic related?

This is wrong. If this were true, pretty much all of the socialist states of the 20th Century were fascist then.

It's fairly common to admire heroism and strength. The fascists just exploit this. It's like using a gun. Doesn't make guns fascist.

This isn't exactly wrong, except replace the Muslim with a stormfaggot, and the multiculti guy with an scrawny college kid leftist liberal who likes to play revolutionary.

Maybe you should have tried to befriend him and deprogram him.
It's functional. Being physically capable and able to defend oneself is useful in general.
lol.
Nice try at implying the implication of closeted homosex, fam.

lol okay bro. After you're done getting sweaty at the gym, I have something "steely" and veiny you might enjoy.

Yes. The KDP lost because of meathead machomen like you who lost in the streets and then mostly joined the NSDAP because they cared more about drinking and tweaking each other's biceps than they did about struggle.

10/10
Not in a b8 way; I mean it sincerely.

GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE FUCKBOI
Trotsky is the real man

You know, even for wielding guns, you need a minimum of physical strenght. Have you ever tried to fire and carry for long periods of time something as basic as an hunting rifle?

I'm down for some homosex. But still fuck fascists. Now he'll think twice before he wears his colors. The little shit will remember what we did and he'll put his fucking head down. Mission accomplished Imo.

I'm 90% sure this is a Holla Forumsyp trying to SHUT IT DOWN now. Can you literally not perceive masculinity in any other sense than sexual?

Except this is wrong retard. They lost because of poor political strategy and refusing to create a popular front early enough because of "social fascist" theory. This doesn't mean that they didn't need to survive on the streets, or that they couldn't have used better politics and beaten up the nazis. The big mistake in this period was actually holding off and not smashing them with overwhelming force at the beginning.

There's also the fact that you know, the USSR beat the Nazis in conventional warfare, which requires extreme stamina and strength. Modern soldiers even more so, since their packs are about 40kg. Modern warfare requires even more strength, because all that shit doesn't lug itself about.

You honestly sound "spooked" (I don't really believe Stirner but what the hey) by this idea that if are strong the muscles interfere with your brain so its better to be a 90lb skinnyfat who wheezes after running an eight mile.

I wouldn't pick a fight with that guy.

This. That poster just doesn't get it.

No thanks. For me the personality is just as important as physical appearance, and even if you're a qt twink you're still a douchebag.
If he actually threatened someone or something of that nature, I'd understand fucking him up. However it sounds like you brutalized and traumatized someone who was most likely just misguided. If anything you drove him further down the rabbit hole of his bullshit ideology. Why are Germans so fucking authoritarian? Politics is always violent as shit with you people, tbqh.

Suit yourself. His whole family was a bunch of grunting skinhead retards. After what the "treatment" we gave him who knows, maybe he'll come back for more? I have no regrets.

Where do you get off calling me weak when your policy is literally leave the poor nazis alone until they do something.

lel

But more seriously he may have grown resentful and will perhaps put a Breivik later on.

Also, celebrating manliness for the sake of it is a spook, it is pure emotional appeal.
However, this is something a lot of people are holding in high esteem. You can't win over people just with words and reason user, Islamism and fascism yould have never had any success otherwise. Manly imaginary is something that rocks people, and it would be stupid to refuse using just to spite fash imagery.
It's not a spook if you are using it to your advantage.

ANGELA MERKEL WILL GIVE ME COMMUNISM!

WHAT? TRAIN IN GUERILLA TACTICS? THAT SOUNDS FASCIST AND HOMOSEXUAL ~ NOT THAT I'M A HOMOPHOBE LIKE STALIN, YOU FUCKING TANKIE SCUM!

WINNING IS CAPITALIST AND AUTHORITARIAN!

WHY ARE YOU SO INSECURE AND GAY? WHY DON'T YOU SIT AND EAT DORITOS LIKE ME?

PREPARE FOR THE REVOLUTION? UM… HELLO. I HAVE A KNIFE!

FUCKING COPS! save me cops…

Bro I literally just told you I'm homo as fck.

You had the opportunity to help someone out of the hell of far right ideology, and you beat him instead. Good job, asshole.
Violent confrontation should be undertaken only when necessary. If someone of another belief system isn't presenting a threat, attacking them doesn't really accomplish anything. I don't really subscribe to the 'no platformism' most radicals advocate.

gay trips

Blown out like a prolapsed angus XD

lol okay, well you're in the minority. No platform is a pretty effective tactic.

How was I going to influence that little dickhead more that his family and friends? My bros and I had some fun and he learned a lesson. End of story.

Not really. It just makes your side look like violent scumbags to ordinary people and makes the opposition dig in their heels even more.
He was obviously misled. Maybe his family were abusive and horrible. And which friends are you speaking of?
You had fun attacking someone for having shitty beliefs. Sounds like the actions of a misanthropic bully, tbh fam.
What lesson did he learn? That people outside his clique are hostile and adversarial?

What no platform means?

Basically it means you attack anyone who is remotely right wing for thinking things you disagree with.

No muh freeze peache for rightist dickheads. Break up their rallies, tear down their posters, take down their websites. They can't organize, they can't recruit. Simple and effective.

If he was abused by his fascist fuckhead parents maybe he wouldn't have grown up like them, eh? Either way I don't care. Entire family was a nest of Nazi scum and we don't tolerate that shit. That's the end of it. Learn fucking tactics, then maybe you wouldn't have a fascist running for the highest office in your country.

You just gave yourself away.

As what, you goofball?

[authoritarianism intensifies]
You clearly don't. Instead of rehabilitating people you attack them for being wrong.
Radical activist types are pretty universally despised in America. We generally believe in freedom of expression, and no platformism goes against our most basic spooks. Maybe it works in your shuddersome Nazi country.
Trump is a racist pandering opportunistic dickhead. Calling him a fascist gives him far too much credit.

You're either SJW or Holla Forumsyp impersonating a liberal. I'd bet on the latter.

Okay, maybe I don't know American politics so well but humor me.

Trump gets a ton of media attention, blasting his propaganda to ignorant fuckheads and getting them riled up. The tactics I'm talking about PREVENT EXACTLY THAT.

Explain how I'm wrong.

Nope. People just see crazy people attacking someone for disagreeing with them. For example, when Trump's goons attacked peaceful protesters, people were shocked. The recent violence of anti-Trump protesters has attracted similar disdain. In America you don't use violence against someone assembling peaceably. It's a basic spook like French people having general strikes and Germans doing scat fetishism.

Because attacking people will rile them up even more? Because bystanders assume you're part of some psychotic cult?

You're not fooling anyone.

And in this day and age, with modern means of communications, the argument that you can contain the spread of ideas with just physical means, the idea that you just can just
SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING
DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING
is absolutely plain retarded.

We can disagree, but I don't see how letting your enemies frame the debate however they want helps you. Letting them paint whatever picture they want doesn't help you.

What they believe is monstrous and cutting them any slack is fucking stupid. In Germany they're dying out anyway. I don't know where you guys will be in a generation.

Except by acting like the Holla Forums caricature of antifa, by being authoritarian assholes and by using skaven-like tactics, not only you let them paint the picture they want, YOU'RE HELPING THEM PAINTING THE PICTURE!

If you need to shut people down with violence, maybe your arguments aren't that great to begin with.
What they believe is monstrous. Are they necessarily monstrous? Not fucking someone up for having a different point of view is cutting them slack?
Wait, are you implying people who disagree with you are Nazis? What implications are you implying?

What the funk is a "skaven"?

Also my country has its fascists under control. Their parties are tiny or banned and they're afraid to even show themselves in the cities.

How have your methods worked out? You have a German racist demagogue running for your president and might actually win. That will never happen again here, in fucking GERMANY. Does the irony completely go over your head?

What the funk is a "skaven"?

Also my country has its fascists under control. Their parties are tiny or banned and they're afraid to even show themselves in the cities.

How have your methods worked out? You have a German racist demagogue running for your president and might actually win. That will never happen again here, in fucking GERMANY. Does the irony completely go over your head?

We're making the same arguments and positions buddy, so what the fuck are you even saying.

a Skaven is an anthorpomorphic rat that behaves like rabid goblin.

COUGH pegida COUGH

Also,
Sorry about that, i thought warhammer was quite a well known reference on imageboards…

Pegida is a joke. They don't have any power and their rhetoric is what you could call tepid because there are limits on what they can say. Closest is actually AFD, but they're also tiny and ineffective.

The sci-fi boardgame or whatever it is? I don't play that shit but it seems full of rightist tropes. Don't know why that would be a meme.

Anyway das Lebewohl

maybe next time I post here we'll see eye to eye

Not yet. They're part of a wave of reactionary butthurt, though.
Exactly. Imagine what's going on behind closed doors.
OH MY MARX YOU'RE SUCH AN INSUFFERABLE DOUCHEBAG REEEEE

If you can't make your case by any other mean than violence, you're obviously not mastering your arguments enough.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

People like the persyn we're responding to are a big part of why a fascist glorious uprising in Europe might be inevitable.
GG Antifa.

M-might be just Holla Forums false flagging right? RIGHT?

That's warhammer 40k. Skaven are a part of warhammer fantasy.

We can only hope.
I'm not hopeful. This fucking faggot is probably an active memeber of the Bomber Harris fanclub.

Did someone say … SKAVEN???

Skaven have the perfect meritocracy, I'll have you know!

Skaven is pure capitalism!

Anyone can rise in the skaven society. As long as you are worth of rising!

Skaven depection of capitalists, when?

Skaven ancraps?
What about piggy mene?

Why not both?

Daily reminder that Arthur "turning fash to ash" Harris did nothing wrong.

Sounds good :D :D

Pig disgusting.

Learn to take a joke you humorless fuck.

For a thread about being manly, this one sure contains a lot of weeping of bruised and/or dead fascists.

THE MEMES MUST FLOW
Also, if anyone is good at coloring, i'd wont be mad if someone improve and claim as his own

Marx and Engels also held white supremacist attitudes. They still supported black anti-colonial struggles, just like Che did.

sauce?

Along with locking people up for eating burgers and loving freedum :DDD