Hey Holla Forums

Hey Holla Forums

Just wondering why you are not Distributist? It avoids the extremes of capitalism and communism and has a successful history displayed by the Byzantine Empire.

Distributism puts great emphasis on the principle of subsidiarity. This principle holds that no larger unit (whether social, economic, or political) should perform a function which can be performed by a smaller unit. The idea is that the state (my preference is a monarchy) actively works to prevent too much power being concentrated in small groups of plutocrats and corporations.

It promotes more cooperative systems like guilds which ideally helps to provide more local production and higher quality artisan products rather than mass production and mass consumption.

Other urls found in this thread:

incommunion.org/2010/11/24/distributism-a-primer-for-orthodox-christians/
voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/the-economy-of-byzantium-state-intervention-and-voluntary-exchange-part-one-agriculture/
youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
oodegr.co/english/filosofia/nihilism_root_modern_age.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property#Personal_versus_private_property
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
twitter.com/AnonBabble

The idea in distributism is that the legal ownership of the means of production in the economy is distributed as widely as possible in the population. This implies a double comparison and contrast. On the one hand, as in capitalism, distributism honors private property and rewards intelligence, hard work, and entrepreneurialism. But simultaneously, and differing from the usual structure of capitalist governments, a distributist state takes measures to discourage the endless accumulation of wealth in the hands of a minority. While capitalism believes in private ownership, it also believes that only a few people should own what really matters, that is, the ways of producing money and goods. Distributism is not content, therefore, with great numbers of people owning their own homes or having shares in the stock market; they need to have real control over the land, farms, factories, and institutions that produce money and goods. On the other hand, as in socialism, the state remains the most powerful entity in the country; the state does not permit plutocrats and corporations to usurp its authority, as they ceaselessly attempt to do in capitalist countries. But simultaneously, and differing from the common ideal of a socialist economy, distributism is realistic enough to acknowledge that some are still going to be rich and some are still going to be poor. The rich are not automatically dispossessed, nor are the poor put on the welfare rolls.

Although is sounds utopian, a distributist economy was a common reality in the past. It is the natural form an economy takes when its societal structures are relatively simple and local. Imagine a primitive society. In such a society people accumulate wealth by the work of their own hands either on farms or in small industries. Some people do get wealthy, through the combination of hard work, intelligence, inheritance, and divine providence (usually but wrongly called “good luck”). But when trade is limited to an area the size of a county (a few hundred square miles), even the wealthiest people will generally not become vastly wealthier than their neighbors. Vast accumulations require theft, slavery, war, or some other form of exploitation. Numerous examples from history illustrate this kind of simple, local economy. The Roman Republic had a distributist economy before the rise of the Roman Empire. A distributist system gradually developed out of the ruins of the Roman Empire in the Middle Ages in Western Europe. When England began to colonize North America, people thought that England’s economy was still distributist, though they never used such a word for it and the dispossession of the monasteries had already steered their economy on the course toward capitalism. In early America, the economic system of the English colonies in the North was largely distributist; in the English colonies in the South, it was mixed with a servile state. Today, with the coincidence of modern technologies and the tradition of law and polity for the past century and more, capitalism has eclipsed distributism in the United States. But distributism is not forgotten. Remnants of the old distributist order remain in practice, in law, and in the collective memory of the nation. The importance given to personal home ownership, the “family farm,” and small business; the current movement toward eating locally grown food; the continuing appeal of arts and crafts as full-time occupations – all are living remnants of distributism.

From here: incommunion.org/2010/11/24/distributism-a-primer-for-orthodox-christians/

The Byzantine Empire is a good example of good government and economics. An interesting series on its economy can be found here: voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/the-economy-of-byzantium-state-intervention-and-voluntary-exchange-part-one-agriculture/

Because distributism was created as a capitalist ploy to quell socialists.

It's not the worst ideology, but it's practically geo-socdem. I would vote for a distributist over a liberal any day, but I would never vote for a distributist over a communist.

It never really prevents the wage exploitation problem. Also distributing shit is just basically shifting around the problem.

I still think it's pretty cool and interesting though.

The problem with Marxism is its materialism. Its obvious that quality of life is mostly dependent on relationships between human beings as well as some sort of religion or spirituality.

The focus in a Christian Orthodox Distributist system would be the salvation of souls. The upper classes are also restrained by the influence of the Church, see St John Chrysostom as an example

Marxism isn't the only option, friend. A lot of people on this board don't like marxism at all, nor materialism. Possibly the most intelligent poster here is an idealist. I'm certainly not a materialist myself. I agree with you.

I agree, the christian left has had a good impact, but it's got a long way to go. The point is that in any case, whether you're a materialist or not, I think it's pretty obvious that the workers are the ones who are producing the value, and it's the rich who take it.

Reference: James 5:1-6 (Where it says that the rich keep the poor back by fraud).

But why abolish private property and have everything controlled by the State? It seems that Distributionism preserves a better balance by having decentralized economics while maintaing private property

is this post fucking serious

yes, why are you some Bolshevik retard? Stolypins reforms would have resulted in a Distributist economy without killing millions of people

I don't want everything controlled by the state, user. Personally I think that's a horrible idea. I want workers* to own the property they use. I think that should be the entire basis of communism.

I'm guessing you're new here? =)

Yes, I'm new lol. If you want workers to own the property they use why not let private property exist and have the workers voluntarily form guilds/cooperatives/collectives.

communism is anti-christian you fucking heretic

go to >>>Holla Forums people there can actually argue

Because private property necessitates exploitation of worker labour. If workers owned private property, it would cease to be private property.

You've just described syndicalism/council communism there.


why?

I'm already on Holla Forums. I just thought that Distributism can be an interesting intersection


If someone owns something how is it not private property? I mean each individual worker, not workers in general.

We make a distinction between private and personal property.

The worker is the person who creates the value, using the means of production. If the worker owns the means of production, whether individually or collectively, it's not private property any more and we have no issue with it.

So if you set up like a workplace and hired no one for wages, and just worked yourself, communists would be fine with that.
The moment that you hire someone for a wage, you're taking their surplus value and it becomes private property, and hence exploitation.

So nobody can hire anyone? What happens to entrepreneurs then?

Not everyone is born creative or equal so won't hieararchies form anyway? Especially if there is a central government.

Nobody can hire anyone for a wage, no.

Why do you think entrepeneurs would disappear? Because there's no profit incentive? I think if you look at a lot of studies it becomes obvious that for any form of creative work, wages are not only *not* an incentive, but are in actually a *dis* incentive, and that people only really care about
1. Mastery
2. Autonomy
3. Contribution
Labour and creativity can both be pleasures.

Here's a good reference talking about those studies: youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc


I don't see heirarchies forming being equivalent to domination. Heirarchies are institutional, domination is purely about power of will. You can also enforce destruction of heirarchy by using the power of the masses, through whatever means most people would say direct democracy, but I personally think that heirarchy wouldn't exist if it wasn't institutional.

About half of us here are anarchists, user. That means they don't want *any* government, let alone a central one in the process of achieving communism. A central government *could* be used purely to destroy hierarchy though, I mean there are ways to prevent corruption, domination etc. Socialism and communism aren't the same though. Socialism = there can be government, but communism is by definition stateless.

Private property is personal property you fucking heretic.

kys

I've already stated my case on why it isn't. I'm not going to get into an insult match, because that's a waste of my time. Address that, or if not, just please leave.

Why? So commies like you can make the world retarded?

Private property is personal property, which means if you try to take it from me I'll shoot your goddamn face off, just like if you tried to take my clothes, or my computer. I see it as something that I personally own and take personal offense to you interfering with my shit.


you can go too

Because I dont want to avoid the extremes of communism.

Also

Look, you're just repeating yourself.

I say "Private property is theft because it is by definition used for the exploitation of worker labour- the workers are the actual rightful owners"

You say "no it's not you're a heretic"

I say "explain why"

You just repeat yourself.

I don't care how you personally see it, I care that you are stealing labour value, which you are. YOU do not produce value. The workers you "keep back by Fraud" (James 5:4) do.

Private property is not theft, taking away somebody's private property is theft. Communism is a pathetic attempt at justifying theft. Most private property is just suburban homes with families who don't have 'workers,' so what the fuck are you even talking about? Workers get paychecks, they 'rightfully' own that money, and that money alone. If they want more they have to bring something to the table. The rightful owner of private property is the man with the name on the deed. Communism is an atheistic pseudo-intellectual sorry excuse for thought. You are not a christian, you're an edgy little faggot.

Thats personal property you fucking tool. The means of production are private property.

Also, they live is a leftist film.

I mean an entrepeneur might need to hire someone to get his project up and running. If no other worker is interested and has no real incentive to help how is he going to start up?

If you are a Christian how can you be against Hierarchies? God is our King which means a huge part of our faith is submission to a higher authority. pic related

Theolgically and philosophically how can anarchy lead to a good society. Vladimir Solovyov ascribed this syllogism to the revolutionary nihilists, "Man is descended from. monkey, consequently we shall love one another."

This book shows how communism isn't Christian: oodegr.co/english/filosofia/nihilism_root_modern_age.htm

So the worker?


Oh, please. It's ironic you're using John Nada to post.

So if one person creates a means of production out of his own property it belongs to everyone? How is that reasonable?

No, if ONE person creates means of production out of his own property, and *then* hires others to use it instead of himself, he still owns it but is using it for the ends of thievery.

My plot of land that I live on is not a means of producing capital you dumb faggot. It is private property and if you try to take it I'll shoot your face off, and the whole neighborhood will probably just have a commie-killing spree. Go ahead and try and take my personal/private property, see what happens. And yes it's both personal and private.


FOR YOU

I think he means under socialism.

we
have
been
o v e r t h i s

My gott

The plot of land you lie on is personal property, dipshit, learn to read. Why? Its for personal use. To us your house is not private property, and thus we wont take it. The fuck we going to do with owning your house?

pls go.

the land you live on is personal property and not subject to worker's seizing.
Property you use to extract value from labour is private property (eg: a farm or a factory)

But personal property could have a house and a farm or must the state regulate how much land each person has?

It's not your surplus value faggot. Surplus value is reinvested into a business, it's not meant to be distributed willy nilly. You have no idea how economies work, because if you did you would realize that would deincentivize economies completely. Communism is the death of economy, it's fucking stupid.

Capitalists can have as much as they want as long as they're innovating and not colluding prices.

Don't be a smartass, workers get their pay and that's it. They ask for anything more than they put their business out of work. Workers know better than dumb faggots like you. And no, you're not a christian, you're a communist.

They're the same damn thing you retard. My private property is something I own personally, it's mine, and I'll defend my right to own it with weapons.

Not an argument. gott ist tott

If you use it, it's yours. If others use it, it's theirs.

Are you the only one who works the land? Then it's fine. Do you hire workers to work the land and use their labour for your profit? Then it's exploitation.

Damn right, that's the point.

Ideology. Pure ideology.


Why do you keep feeling a need to add with weapons to every post? You realise we don't wanna take your guns, right?


We've been over this. They're not the same. You use the means of production to the end of exploitation.

What capital am I producing in a suburban house? Nothing. It's still private property, and it's also my personal property. I don't have any workers, working it. I mow my lawn personally, I maintain my house personally. I'm not exploiting anybody, and if you want it I'll kill you.

Private property is something that others own personally, but you claim ownership of it and use this claim to steal from those who actually use (and own) it.

Exactly, so you can keep your fucking suburban house. Do you understand? YOU CAN KEEP YOUR SUBURBAN HOUSE.

I've already explained this, we don't see private property and personal property as the same because of usage! That's how the terms are defined!

Explanation on wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property#Personal_versus_private_property

Your house is personal property, not private property
read a book tbh

Whether it's a farm, a factory, or my house it doesn't matter. It's mine if my name's on the deed. Your commie definitions don't mean shit to me and it doesn't mean shit to actual workers. If you work in my factory, I pay you, and I get the surplus value to reinvest in more jobs and I get the lion's share of the profits because I do the managing, not the workers. If they want to do that, they can buy their own factory, and they had better have something that people actually want to buy.

It's not private property.

It's both faggot.

>I'm going to go apeshit on anyone who thinks my land isn't private property, and therefore do not want to take it from me
Sounds like somebody needs a smug anime girl!

No, it's not.

who will enforce that deed you braindead propertarian?

I'm done, I've explained it almost 10 times and idk where the nice person who I was talking to went to, but this thread is now being saged.

This is a sign that people post outside their house.

You've explained you know nothing of christianity, how economies work, or what private property really is.

I can call my personal property a kingdom, but that doesn't make it true

If you have a large plot of land how are you going to work it without hiring other people? What if you just have a large family and have them work a large plot of land. Just as much "inequality" will exist.

Me and my gun, and my neighbors.

We told you, under socialist theory the terms are defined differently.

No, this was how they were termed since the 1800's. And in any case, this is what we want to get rid of.

I very rarely see those signs on personal estates. Mostly its on land that has been claimed by a corporate entity and not an individual.

Right, it has to be something accepted by the society around you. And most people see private property as personal property.

People are stupid.

James 5:4

No, communism is fucking stupid.

God is dead. Not that you're even a christian.

Just get out, you're just here to be a hot shot. You haven't even tried understanding anything we've been explaining.

Because land that has use-value beyond what is personal should be democratically owned.
You can't just piss on a couple of acres of land and call it your own.
So you can work the land as a community, or you can be filthy exploiting capitalist pig oink oink.

Well sorry Fedorarich NEETzsche who doesn't know what he even meant by that quote.

Your personal anecdotes are meaningless.

He said gods too decompose right before he said that.

kek'd

It was a statement about how establishments and culture destroy faith.

No, you can leave if you want. Communism is for people who don't know how the real world works.

1. States are bad
2. The extremes of communism are good.
Conclusion: distributionism is a popeist plot to quell socialism.

...

You realize not everyone here is a marxist communist, right? You realize that marxist communism is not the end-all definitive school of socialist thought, right?

This board is Holla Forums's punching bag.

One verse doesn't trump all of Tradition


So who decides how the land gets redistributed, thats right central government. In that case you may as well have Distributism and keep private property as well as it is a more peaceful transition than revolution

Communism is stupid no matter what form. Nationa.l socialism is okay.

...

National Socialism usees Ditributist economics not free market capitalist bullshit

Kek

States aren't bad. States are associations of like-minded people.

Nothing wrong with white males.

Its how you interpret it mate. I choose to go with the interpretation of the Church Fathers who compiled and wrote the New Testament

Some nice conjecture right there

Say you r community has a nice plot of land that would suffice feeding it entirely. The community could collectively organise to take turns in plowing/harvest/etc..etc… So no exploitation takes place.
Or you could get a bunch of goons with guns and force people to work "your" land in return for a pittance in which case you would be no better than a feudal lord.

No, states are the strongarm of capitalist oppression that you get no choice in associating with.

lol you're fucking stupid

Course not, but

You can always leave them, or kill yourself. Also, nothing wrong with oppressing people.

...

Jesus didn't use a punching back like this person is claiming to.

ahahahdgfhj

hehe what are you a fascist

Or several people who own their own adjacent farms can voluntarily form a cooperative rather than having a mob turn up and confiscate all their stuff in the name of the "community"

To go to another state. Or alternatively to space.
I do not want to be oppressed, therefore oppression is bad.

He was certainly no communist. Communist is for atheists.

That's syndicalism, which is socialism :^)

A cooperative is a democratic worker's organisation so I don't see how that would be at odds with communism.

humhumhum

That's awfully self-righteous.

huhuhuhuh

James 5: 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you.

socialist theory is fucking stupid then

lmao

What version you reading

Because each person retains their own private property but agrees to use it communily. They can remove their property from the cooperative if they wish.

Also guilds mate. Same story

That definition o private property is hardly unique. Most people accept it. Your definition of private property is somewhat unique and not accepted. People will fucking shoot you if you try to take what they see as both their private property and their personal property, and it's naive to think otherwise.

And who decides what part of the land is "his" as private property?
Who enforces the borders of said private property?

Regardless you not liking someone oppressing doesn't change shit. They'll still go on oppressing you while you moan about it like a little bitch.

this shitposting is out of hand. Bullied Holla Forums enough tbh

In the real world people currently own property. Who decides how it is redistributed in your system?

Distributism is just socialism for christians
Whoever thinks Marx and Chesterton are imcompatible is a moron

OP is a classcuck eitherway, OP please read a real christian socialist but I can't recall any right now. Tolstoi maybe?

Petrinism and heresy all in one. Good choice. Dostoevsky is far better

That's why we have to emphasize the difference and make people aware that their estates are personal property, not private. Otherwise, nobody is going to accept a movement built around the abolition of private property.

These things are usually defined by land speculators, neighborhood communities and generally people who live in that area. Land is typically measured in acres. Acres are usually worth a specific amount, like 50$ per acre.

Is a classcuck someone who respects people who make more than them?

So they will. Not liking people touching kids doesn't stop them doing it anyway either.

That's not an argument.

Interesting read, I'm a huge byzandiboo, so this pleases me.

Though I think it was with the pronoia system that the empire came closer to emulating somewhat western European feudalism, even though the status of the administrating landlord wasn't necessarily inheritable and could be revoked by the emperor.

Yes.

nothing is "redistributed" this is a dumb meme.

So I see you acknowledge that the concept of private property requires a state to enforce, which is a nice step forward.

As for "redistribution". Nothing is distributed, those who work the land, own the land, those who work the factory, own the factory, and so on

Nobody will ever want to do abolish their right to have their own goddamn farm or factory. Your religion of communism is not accepted and people have no respect for it.

Then I'm a classcuck and I'll kill anybody who isn't a classcuck. I respect people's right to make more than myself.

It is an argument, it's called might makes right.

people with money ARE the source of all sin, respect is giving them too much

Right, so someone with a thousand acres fires all their workers and brings in their extended family to work it. No problem?

he wasn't asking how property is priced moron

Good thing I don't believe in god or sin. Also money isn't going to disappear anytime soon you dumb faggot.

Do you know how to read?
When revolution comes the owner wont have a say in who toils his land, because private ownership is abolished.

That's how property is understood and defined out in the real world. It's enforced by individuals who have weapons, neighborhood communities, just about everybody. Communists are thieves.

Wrong, LOVE of money is the root of all evil, not money itself. It can be argued that commies love money most of all seeing as they want to steal everything of value that isn't nailed down to "personal property"

Good thing nobody believes that crap.

Right, so his land is going to be redistributed

...

You're the one bitching about oppression. Revolution isn't going to happen, people will shoot you down if you try, so please go ahead and try.

Which is why the point of anarchism is to have a revolution. In the mean time going


Is not in any way an argument for or against anything beyond stating "The status quo is the status quo, therefore anyone who argues against it is a bitch".

...

Nah, it's enforced by the private armies of the bourgeoisie and fended by a whole network of laws codified by the state. We don't live in the bronze age anymore, classcuck.

money is the root of all evil because it allows one to private others from certains goods not just meterail gods.

This is an ad hominem

So I am.

Stellar insight right there.

Why would you choose Satan over God?

you're not even attempting to understand

Your precious proleteriats respect private property even more than plenty of bourgeois.

But there is no satan or god.

It's true. You'll get shot because people believe in a different kind of freedom than you.

So they do.

No, love of money is Greed. People should be happy with what they have. The Saints and Hermits renounced all property and kept common property but not everyone is at this level. You can't force people to develop spiritually it involves "inner warfare"

The goal is to declasscuck the proletariat (again) first by making it class conscious. It will take capitalism shitting itself (again) for the proletariat to be open to gommie ideology though.

And so you'll die for something that nobody with any amount of self-respect can tolerate. Congrats.

Right so why bother with "justice" or "equality" and accept the perspective that all life is a struggle for supremacy

They respect it because they are slaves, anymore brilliant points you are gonna throw at us.

Through this thread you are going "muh private property, muh rights", but these arguments are dependent on an already fixed Capitalist system. No fucking shit private property within capitalism, because the power and wealth in capitalism is owned, by you guessed it! The Capitalists!

The whole point is that it shouldn't and that private property is just another way to impede the workers from owning the means of production, through bourgeois laws and their bourgeoisie's private mercenary armies.

Is not about spirituality, is about society.
As long money and private property exist people will fall into temptation irregardless of their fath.

No because greed will still exist

greed will dissapear because there will be nothing to be greedy about

The fact that you feel like you can talk about hard-working blue-collar workers like that is why no one respects you. They're not slaves and they are free to make more money. You are a slave to a retarded religion called communism that will get you either thrown in jail or killed.

Full pleb.


I'm interested in what is just and beneficial for me. It just so happens that this largely coincides what is just and beneficial for the majority of people.

No, as long as people like communists or capitalists are obsessed with possession of material goods people will be miserable.

pleb is a derogatory term aimed at insulting the lower class

Are you aware of the mental gymnastics you're doing?
how can people be greedy if everything is shared?

I'm poor and a worker. I slave to support my family. Luckily, today is a rare day's off.

Fuck off. You're an idiot.

ah yess the freedom to work a shit job or starve
what great freedom it is

Are you retared? As long as material objects exist people are going to be greedy

.>>740331
So you project your own perspective onto others. How is this reasonable?

Forcing people to share everything is a sign of mistrust. You don't force your friends to share everything with you, do you? That's because you trust that they'll be charitable when they choose to do so.

More like it's another way of saying "uncultured" or "ignorant".

At this point in society everyone is literally a pleb.

blue-collar jobs are not shit jobs

good god fuck off will you

We've already tried distributism. For the better part of the last 70 years, I might add. It's called social democracy, and surprise surprise: it doesn't last because it's merely a bandaid on the contradictions of capitalism and it is not in the interest of the capitalist class to maintain it, and so it will not be.

You're an insult to hard-workers everywhere. Hard work isn't going to disappear because of a revolution, somebody has to do it. You can always kill yourself if you feel like it. Your family should be ashamed of you. Communism advocates giving up your family to the state anyway, so don't give me that shit.

The Tsar was a better ruler than the shitty Bolsheviks that took over. The Bolsheviks also killed everyone more moderate so why isn't that just going to happen again.

This is why Distributism under a Monarchy is best

Super turbo mega autism, straight from McCarthy himself.

see this post that I was responding too you retarded faggot

low effort m8

Democracy is a failure. Distributism only works under an Autocratic government that is powerful enough to break up oligarchies and plutocracies

Greedy about what? why would they be greedy if there is nothing they can lose or gain meterially


You're framing this into a world where property still existes
In socialism things aren't shared out of charity they're shared because its the best for the people involved.

So it's a utopia that will never exist, because the USSR tried that shit already, didn't work.

Commies are lazy fucks.

I'm not sure what you're trying to articulate.

Anarchism would be beneficial to me, so it's only logical that it would be beneficial to other people in similar material conditions. This isn't projecting, it's just logic.

Likewise if I stub my toe on the door it's reasonable to conclude that other people would stub their toe on that door if they also bumped into it.

I would benefit more under a Monarchy and Aristocracy.

alright you little shit, I work for a low-wage to support my whole immediate family when they can't work while my grandmother was dying from the cancer she got from a husband that was working in an industrial asbestos factory. Work that has no real merit. I could be doing my own shit like farming for my family and living in a clean area but that isn't possible.Fuck off you little capitalist cock-sucker.

We've tried that too. For about 2,200 years of human history, and surprise surprise: it didn't last because it's merely a bandaid on the contradictions of class society.

Oh but hasn't half this fucking thread been dedicated to you dumb faggots trying to assert that certain things are personal property? Property will exist as long as humans have a sense of individuality, personal and private.


That's a pretty shallow logic to excuse taking people's shit from them.

If you would be part of the aristocracy then yes I suppose you would.

Otherwise? Nah.

You sound like a measly little shit that can't survive in this world. Most blue-collar workers are proud of what they earn and what they possess, you're pathetic. Suicide is always an option you know.

You don't even know what you're implying do you?

...

McCarthy with the memes.

>the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a stateless, classless and moneyless society
I'll gladly concede it's an example of how one kind of attempt at achieving it can turn horribly wrong, sure.

Next point?

Except I am surviving. Yeah, fuck off.

...

Societies will always have classes and classes are a result of the division of labor. People will always have different jobs that deserve different amounts of pay.

More like rule of the inbred.
More like rule of the nobody.

That's how Aristotle defined it. You probably think oligarchies are aristocracies don't you?

Physically maybe, but mentally not really.

explain why


the distintion beatween personal property and private property is very simple
I'm just saying "a world without property" as an examples
Some people will use property to refer only to private propert and call personal property posesions.

Then why is class society such a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of homo sapiens? Humans have only had class society for a little over 2500 years. That's not even a quarter of our species' lifespan.

Please, oh please, elaborate on this.

Pay itself, as a concept, being a concept younger than class society. Let alone currency.

So much for your precious proleteriats.

An example of an aristocracy would be Sparta. Aristocracies are meritocratic and militaristic. They promote self-discipline and that only the best should rule. Sounds a hell of a lot more efficient than rule of the mob aka democracy and communism.

Because in a hierarchical society I have a role in maintaining the Order of God no matter where I am. In an anarchy I'm dead because I'm a counter-revolutionary

What happened to Sparta?

if sparta was so great, why did it fall to the gay athenians?

checkmate classcuck

Thebes rekt their shit because they were taught by Sparta the Art of War. Interesting story really.

But capitalism does not encourage love of money?

Sparta didn't fall to Athenians. Sparta won the Pelopennsian war you fucking idiot. I love how you faggots are so hostile and stupid at the same time. Fucking plebs.

The spartan state also took children away from their parents at birth and were opposed to the family unit

lmao

There is no one on the planet who could govern your life more efficiently than yourself, definitely not someone who's arbitrarily been designated as "best".

Not to mention Sparta fell to gay democratic Athens.

Are you aware that sparta was also the gayest society in history
is a terrible example of anything
Last week I'd read an essay by Schopenhaure citing sparta as a fallen society because they let women administrate their economy


You just admitted you are pretentious asshole

An Orthodox Christian Monarchy with a Distributist economy teaches each class not to be greedy and to serve God and the people (our neighbours)

Oh really, how so?

Sounds about right. Though that's the story of most civilizations isn't it?

Sparta was not aristocratic you fucking ahistorical faggot, it was the most meritocratic ancient Greek city state for both it's citiezens, its women and the people who ruled (basically older citizens).

The only aristocracy was that of the two kings, which were basically a position of hereditary military commanders.

fucking amerifaggots with no knowledge in history get out reeeeeeeeeeee

LMAO

ATHENS WAS DEFEATED BY SPARTA

SPARTA WON THE PELOPONESSIAN WAR YOU RETARDED FEMINIST

the corinthian war wasn't even conclusive? stop trying to act like you know what you're talking about, you don't

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_War

lmao, you bang on so much about how militaristic they were then act like they only ever fought one war.

explain how.
God is not going to stop the greedy aristocrats from rigging the system


You just admitted that you like aristocracy because you want to be an aristocrat youself, a very dumb reason to do so.
Have you ever imagined to have the other end of the stick?


Spart is just the worst example.

Do you even read the links you post?

Because the Aristocrats as people have to answer to God through the Church and if a Monarch becomes and apostate he is overthrown because he loses the Divine Right to rule.

No, even normal citizens and slaves (if there are any, ideally there aren't) have a place in the Order.

Yes, Athens was winning then the Persians shite it and took a step back and started to support Sparta instead. To paraphrase Sun Tzu when the enemy is in a civil war always support the weaker side.

But god answers to them? Yes he does sending peasant revolts and revolutions but when that happens people like you back pedal and defends the sinner
God himself put an end to aristocracy because he knew there was no use with them and there is no use in trying to stop him from giving more to the poor

That sounds nice but that dosn't answer my argument.
have you ever tought how awful is to be poor without the right to anything better?

wow people like you actually exist

The personal rule of Monarchs and Aristocrats leads to personal justice rather than excessively fixed law

That dosn't explains or justifies anything. Offtopic even.

I would like to know how hard you would have tipped your fedora in the middle-ages if you were a dirty peasant and a noble took half of your crops to fund his wars and his castles while you starved in the winter.

Athens was not winning, they were backed by Persian silver and won a naval battle after losing several land battle. They didn't win the war, neither did Sparta. Persia technically did, and they were still punished later on for it.


That's a stupid quote in context to the feud between Athens and Sparta because Athens was an empire and Sparta was more inclined to just leave everyone be, that's why they never conquered Persia even though they had numerous chances. Athens was much more conservative than you make them out to be you leftist faggot.

Here's another Sun Tzu quote:

Be sure of victory by attacking the undefended.

communists should be shot on spot

The feudal system was more stable and generous to the masses than capitalism. I wouldn't mind going back to a feudal system.

No it was total shit, stop romanticizing the past, Capitalism is 100x better than feudalism because it at least grants you a small modicum of freedom.

The only thing good about feudalism, was that the peasants lived in a communal society and used a bartering system instead of money. That's about it, unless you enjoy working 15 hours a day plowing the fields for your noble master like a cuck.

Sounds like capitalism bro.


Exactly, so when you say


You're full of shit, capitalism demands that your facebook posts be politically correct or else you're fired. Peasants at least had a social network where they were free to vent as they please.

yes
the worst thing about capitalism is PC
you're right

You're not aloud to publicly say politically incorrect shit in our current society, however you're a retard. I'm sure the monarch would be fine with demonstrations or protest against their ways?


Completely and utterly moronic.

There's nothing wrong with people making more than others. There is something wrong with forcing your point of view on someone else, which is what corporations are doing to employees. PC is also usually leftist.

sounds gr8 m8

lol what does this statement even mean?


He didn't really give a fuck about peasants insomuch as he was busy keeping the lords in line. No one protested monarchy because no one was brainwashed by marxist bullshit. There's nothing worth protesting about monarchy itself, just bad monarchs, and even then that was usually a lord's shpeel not a peasants thing, seeing as peasants were fucking measly peasants. At least peasants had some space though, the average worker doesn't have that today.

Reminds me of how simpler things were for nobles. If only we were living back then.

This has to be bait.

...

Your house isn't a private property! It is your personal property!

Private property would be something like factories, farms, ect.

Think about it this way. If a business man hires a worker to use, maintain, and take care the machine, who actually owns the machine?

...

Not before industrialization in any serious manner. Also reminder that Ropespierre got what he deserved. There's nothing wrong with monarchy, but it's perfectly legitimate to protest against bad monarchs. One-man rule works pretty well, just ask Robespierre, or Napoleon, or Charles I, or Cromwell, or Caesar, or Stalin, or Mao Zedong, or Lincoln.

It's just Holla Forums trying to bait and armed with ignorance trying to magically prove us wrong only to get btfo with facts and reason.

Nationa.al socialism takes the best aspects of capitalism and socialism and blends them together. Communism and corporations that don't have states regulating them are retarded systems that give free reign to corruption and chaos.

The fact that they had to read many Marxist literatures and tried to understand complicated economic concepts proves that they're not lazy in certain aspects

Means of production democratically owned by the workers

How do you blend these together?

You don't get to decide what I think is my personal property, or what private property is. If I say my house is private property it's my private fucking property you communist faggot.


The manager of the business, who owns machines, hires workers, takes all the risks in investments and doesn't have time for your communist bullshit and will fire your ass for promoting it in his workplace.

lol what? communism is the laziest, most retarded form of economy ever invented, it's basically fuck all innovation and progress, let's just give everybody free shit

The means to communism is a totalitarian state, the end of communism is a utopia that will never exist. It's the creation of a dystopia with the promise of utopia.

There is no such thing as one man rule.

All of the monarchs are supported by an already existing political regime that support them. And even then the monarchs/leaders are not the only decision makers or the ones influencing the outcomes of a decision.

You have a child's understanding of history.

Also Robespierre did nothing wrong, fagget. The guillotine for you.

oh look it's this meme again

Weren't you btfo in another thread? You just go in circles, why don't you formulate another argument instead if your "right" (lol) to property.

This isn't the 1700's anymore.

...

I'm not sure you know what getting btfo means. Isn't 'leftist politically incorrect' an oxymoron?

no they aren't, the capitalist is investing the workers labor, not his own, since in effect he does not produce anything and as a result does not work. The capitalist is a parasite and the only risk he runs is with regards to maintaining stable capital and the payment of rent/fees.

It's also not the 19th century anymore. Communism is dead.

Not if you are a classcuck

wew lad

It's more alive than the Nazies and Hitler lol.

ftfy

cuck

cuck

Can't communists create anything? All you do is take other people's shit and call it yours. Sad!

...

Are you a worker? if yes then you are a cuck, because you enjoy the fruit of your labor being taken from you and living a miserable consumerist existence. If not you are a parasite.

the soviet union would have destroyed Nazi Germany either way, even without the Americans.

BULLSHIT

That's insulting as fuck to blue-collar workers who work without feeling as self-righteous and bratty as you are about getting more money for not actually doing anything.

It doesn't have anything to do with righteousness ,justice or entitlement. It's just pure economics my friend:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

He says that while defending capitalists.

You should really look at the criticisms on that wikipage. Not that wikipedia is pretty much run by leftists anyway. Communists cannot talk about economics as you're the best example of people who understand economics the least. Redistributing wealth is the dumbest fucking thing you could possibly do in an economy, you deincentivize the entire drive to work and destroy everything in the process. When communists are in charge of economies guess what happeneds? They fucking fall apart, just like the Soviet Union did. Karl Marx was probably partially autistic or something and so are communists in general.

Yeah so?

Ok:

It must be difficult being this retarded.

Also i want to add that capitalists don't take any fucking risk anymore because anytime they fuck up, the gubermint is flying to their rescue.

It's not enough that they have to be parasits, they must pay people to be parasit in their place.

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Don't you realise?
One day he'll own that boot

Keynesian economics don't exist!

Glad you finally acknowledged my superiority, lad. Sadly for you my idealism goes beyond your petty notions of the ideal/material opposition. Marxism>anarchism.

Wut?

Communism doesn't redistribute wealth you dumb fuck, the economy is entirely collectivized.

He'll own the boot and he knows this because keynesian economics are a jew lie. There's no possible way to understand economics outside of Austrian school!

No really, i don't understand the transition between and

Just shitposting.

comrade… delete

...

That's because communists are fucking stupid.

Would the board owner please stop scrubbing post history when banning someone? It's real fucking irritating to stumble upon a dense discussion like this too late and miss half the things that were said.

He didn't even ban me, just erased the posts.