Most people are religious, particularly the poor

I'm a Lefty myself, but has it occurred to some of you that you really aren't making your case?

One does not exclude the other.


WHAT? HOW? WHERE? WHEN? WHAT?

We need to be educated to educate the uneducated. That's what socialism is about.


Nope.
You're a liberal.
>>>/reddit/

That isn't even a coherent statement.

So blacks aren't denied housing loans that a white could get? Gays aren't denied the same if they are obviously gay in, say, a conservative community? You're an idiot if you refuse to acknowledge the statistical facts on the matter. My town recently had a city meeting where homosexuals came to complain about being denied housing and financing on the basis of being homosexual.

Talking down to people makes them tune you out. Particularly when you're a prick to boot.

I didn't know Calculus was a lie. Enlighten me swami.


And you're an elitist, bourgeois prat playing at social revolution as a game to assuage your conscience and as a social statement.

Identity politics breed identity politics. Wonder why so many dirt-poor people are voting Trump?

The fact that poor people are religious doesn't stop it from being the opiate. Add the spectacle to that.

In 'Murica. Because Gheto. Not all blacks. Poor blacks. Race is shit categorization. Class is only good categorization.
You're supposed to have laws for that.
Well… Statistics is the best way of manipulation. Also, the world is not the US.

You can blame part of lefty for elitism. +1 to that. But you can only get a horse to water. You cannot force it to drink.

Naaah. Just austrian economics. And I don't want to talk down to you! :^)

Perhaps. But you're still a liberal.

I like how your first two points virtually contradict each other.

If I understood correctly what you meant, "most people are religious" is meant to, somehow, lead us to the conclusion that we're supposed to be kinder towards religion and religious people (even thought the entire point of the opiate line is that religion is alienated form of consciousness, it impedes their material progress) as a gesture of respect for poor people's culture and values, but the second one, about minorities, is only true if the majority of the population also consider those oppressive gender, sexuality and race norms to be right. And poor, working people are some of the most retrograde when it comes to that.

So we should not fight the "working man's consensus" with religion, but we should do it against their socail prejudices. How convenient.

And the last point is just silly, the study of economics is important but mainstream economics *is* the work of capitalists in the sense that it's applied to a scenario that takes the main engines of capitalism for granted. Study it if you want to, that's great, but it's not really essential in order to make a criticism of how capitalism works.

His last two points are contradictory as well. He defends the uneducated from "our" criticism then immediately does a complete turn and mocks us for our perceived lack of education. I guess the uneducated he's referring to aren't allowed to criticize banks either.

...

Doesn't have shit to do with identity politics. They often use tactics to alienate moderates though.

Pick your battles.


You know how many thriving black communities were destroyed deliberately by government and corporate policies over the years? Blacks are in the ghetto largely by fiat, legislative and otherwise.

Nice stealth racism though.


You deny that racism, sexism, and homophobia have real impacts?


Particularly if you sit in the water.


Not all economics is bizarre neo-liberal shit. In fact that isn't what they teach in college at all.


Hardly.


Not in the least. You can oppose something that the religious want without nakedly insulting the religious. It gets you less opposition.


Understanding the modern market allows you to understand how they fuck people over. If your critique of capitalism is based on gilded age inequalities that have been paved over or reformed since.

I agree 100%, fedora tippers need to die.
That's an outright lie, the poor are, partially for being religious very rejective of those who go against traditional values
Engels himself noted how homossexuals are mostly in the upper class. They create and imagined struggle to deny their own self-indulgent life style. The existentialist retards that led those causes are responsible for the current state of the left.
We should use education as our tool, not give up and resort to emotional appeals and over-simplification of theory which will inevitably lead to a distortion of our movement.
I don't think that represents Holla Forums, but you can't deny that economists can often be biased.

...

You don't think working class whites feel jus a tiny bit alienated by theory that calls the evil and focuses on muh privilege over power?

So your point is not even about us being in principle against something, but the rhetoric you've encountered?

My god this is a horrible thread.

Google "Red-Lining". Look up what happened to thriving black communities based around Austin when the city was expanding.

The ones who are out are. The blue collar ones stay in the closet.

When you teach math, you start with 1+1. You don't start with algebra and imply that someone who has only begun is stupid for not being ready to learn Calculus.


You'd be amazed at how left-wing some economists are.

That is a tactic and its fallout, not a core necessity for advancing causes of racial and gender equality.


People like you disgust me. You're a big part of why the left hasn't gotten around to anything meaningful.

Yes, keep blaming us when it's retards like you that most people think of when they think about "the Left".

Funny thing about SJWs is that they're always telling people to rethink their ways, but they never do it themselves.

Precisely, in third world countries minorities get the brunt of the shit.

I know.
That's what I am fucking saying.

I'm not an SJW, but I suppose you think that anyone who believes that minorities, women, and homosexuals get the shaft are SJWs. I'm not about language policing, that's a stupid tactic, but you're just like the Socialists who broke from the civil rights movement early and relegated themselves to obscurity.


No, you're being a moving target.

No. What I am saying is that identity politics, meaning politics based on the onthological level of identity, breeds more politics based on identity.
It is thus important that we frame it as a power-struggle rather than a muh privilege struggle.

So you want blacks, women, and others to ignore their day to day reality and focus on YOUR rhetoric and preferred arguments where we pretend that their issues do not exist? Yes, very persuasive. That will rally the troops.

People who make retarded analogies like this should never be allowed to criticize other's rhetoric at any point.

Oh, you mean they manipulated things to promote corporate interests… Hmm… Guess this only happens to black people!
Liberal.

Racism and homophobia (it's not phobia, it's hate, but anyway) are tools of the system to divert attention and make it all about race, sex, gender, whatever.
"Sexism" is a boogeyman, created by a feminist Nomenklatura, so that it could keep its position.

TEACH US YOUR WAYS, OH GREAT EDUCATOR OF THE MASSES!

TEACH US YOUR WAYS, OH GREAT EDUCATOR OF THE MASSES!


The definition, actually.


WHAT TROOPS????
Why does a black person or a gay person have more class con than a "White Cis Male"???

Your sexism/racism knows no bounds!

LIBERAL!

man what a lad OP is

You're in denial.


They're among the easiest targets. That's just in the US, in other countries one tribe will happily genocide another or force them to pay tribute just because they can.

If you think noticing racial prejudice makes you a Liberal then you're in denial.


The elite certainly stoke racial hatred to divide the people, but explaining that is an excellent way to bring people on board.


Sexism is real, but feminism has been hijacked by the bourgeois.


Well for one, try not to come across as an ass.


Well for two, taking econ 101 wouldn't hurt.


If you're that dumb, then go back and live in your bizarre ivory tower locked away with gilded age manuscripts.

They turn out and vote, they work as boots on the ground. They show up at political meetings and are passionate. They know that they have a dog in the fight.

My, you're a heel.

Not what I said.
What I said is that we need to understand that muh privilege is given, not taken. It is granted from Power and thus Power, not muh privilege is the issue and as long as one attacks muh privilege over power, you can be sure that we will never stand united.

So, it's either US or subsaharan africa… Hmm… I guess you're true to your flag then and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

Focusing does.

Define.

That sounds like elitism to me.

Das Kapital came out even on a Manga…

That's not an answer on why does skin color or sexual preference raise Class Con better.

Now talk about the Socialist organizations that supported black people back in the day and are now successful or achieved anything. How we relate to SJW issues is completely immaterial on whether we succeed or not.

And ffs, the First International collapsed in the United States while also having the first female presidential nominee. IWW failed while being completely open to african-american, women and minorities, not to mention that it was at one point almost entirelyu composed of immigrants. Give me a break.

And your entire argument is undialectical: many Socialists supported Israel back in the day, does that mean it remains one of our "causes"? What about Poland? Algiers? The rights of Italian-americans? Should we also be up in arms for those very important, progressive issues? When a fight is won we move on, but SJWs don't want us to move on from them because they want us to sweat for their benefit until the end.

Forget imaginary dichotomies between muh privilege and power. Majorities pushing around minorities IS power, leverage is leverage. Whether the lever is money or a noose.


Actually I was talking about Afghanistan.


Tell a black kid to not focus on being called a nigger. Shit is real, pretending that it is racist in the way that ignoring class issues is classist.


You know what sexism is shitheel.


That's your gold standard of economic understanding?


It isn't that it raises class consciousness, although thank you for suggesting that you're happy to mobilize an entirely white front while ignoring and alienating minorities.

It isn't that it raises class con, it's that it makes it easy to transition to class consciousness when you explain that racism is an inherent tool of classism, and that you can't fight racism without also fighting the elite.

Right, because contemporary socialists are so effective.

Different fights.


Funny, they think you've abandoned them, and you seem to be suggesting that their issues have already been fought and won. I'll bet that doesn't even register to you though, does it?

That last bit should be aimed at

Majorities don't push minorities around. Power seeks to dominate some more than others and play different groups out against each other.
Noone is pushing Bill Cosby around. A homeless white guy is not pushing anyone around.

If you believe that white/black is the central conflict, you're playing into the hand of Power.

You wanna know how I know you're a white ass motherfucker?

Who is Bill Cosby being pushed around by? Who is a homeless white guy pushing around?

Your point is falling apart, and it's really showing.

lmao

Bill Cosby is being pushed around by prosecutors and judges illegally, but as a consequence of his rape.


Way to deflect. There are still sun-down towns in the American South. That has nothing to do with the contemporary elite.

It's the same fight, or could be if you had the brains to make it so.

Personally I recognises that I'm powerless to actually fix anything in the world, so I'll just take some small comfort in being able to say "I told you so".

I don't even think we (ie. Holla Forums) need to fight for socialism/communism. I think that they're inevitable stages in the development of human civilisation. When the time is right people will rise up and force the transition.

I certainly can't be fucked to try and cater to people's ignorance and primitive urges just to try and win their support for leftist policies, when I know for a fact that it won't change anything in the long run anyway. There are much more fun things I could do with my time.

He also got to rape a bunch of women before he faced any consequences (and even so he walked free in spite of the huge amount of evidence).

That, my friend, is power. It trumps muh privilege in every way. Indeed, Morgan Freeman believes that racism doesn't really exists in the US anymore. Imagine how much power you must have to have to actually think that. How little white muh privilege must mean in your life?


It's not a way to defelct. It's a way to demonstrate that racial universalism doesn't apply and will breed more racial universialism in those you appoint as your out-group.

Majorities are not pushing minorities around. Majorities are being sicced on each other, told to fought. They are being pushed around by one of the smallest minorities, that of Power.

So you're saying that because some blacks have power that it makes racism for the rest inconsequential, but only because it shields those blacks from the reality of racism?

Who said anything about universalism?

How blind can you be? Power does exploit and fan racism, but racism isn't some magically engineered disease from a laboratory, and it exists and self-perpetuates in the wild just fine.

How can you even believe that discrimination is on no level organic? It makes it OBVIOUS that you're a muh privileged white man, and quite probably bourgeois.

Piggybacking this. For all the conversations on here regarding "class consciousness" to be the time-bomb of the left, just waiting to reach the proper amount, I don't think there's enough backing it.

I can't remember who said it, but there is one quote I recall in which the guy pretty much states, "A revolution occurs when the average person cannot go another day in their present living condition."

Exactly. No amount of careful argument or facebook meme-posting will start a revolution. It'll happen due to the changing material conditions as automation becomes more sophisticated and widespread. When people can't find a job and can't feed their family, then there will be revolution. Until then, I might as well sit back and enjoy the ride.

That's not what I said. I am quite aware that racism and white muh privilege is real.
I am saying it comes from somewhere. It comes from and is perpetuated by Power.
The rhetoric you spew, racial universalism, plays into the hand of the narrative of Power.


Racism as we know it today stems from the 1500's as a way to legitimize slavery.
It literally doesn't exist outside of the Power frame-work it is supposed to legitimize.


But yeah, keep blaming all white people and make sure Nazism rises again. This is exactly what is happening with Trump. Eventually you'll get lynched rather than having a revolution with others.


Do you know what this means?

For the record, I have seen people on this board claim that "class consciousness" is itself a material condition. What is a good way to dismiss this? I'm mostly thinking of citing historic examples (french revolution, american war of independence)

Go back and reread what you said.

It is fanned and perpetuated by power, but does not require power to perpetuate itself. Poor whites can fuel their own hatred just fine.


Nobody is spewing racial universalism. You accuse other people of that to evade dealing with race outside of your preferred paradigm.

Modern racism isn't the same as 1500's racism, but you have some history correct.

Bull-fucking shit. How it started does not dictate that it cannot survive outside of the environment that begat it.


Nobody has blamed all white people in this thread, nor have I. Way to project your racial fears onto me though. Woogie boogie boo!

Fascism has been inevitable since the 80's.


So let me get this straight: racism only exists as part of the power framework of the elite, but Identity Politics mysteriously perpetuates it even though you asserted that it can only be perpetuated and exist due to the elite, and racial extremism is only rising due to black nationalism?

Here's a mind bomb will probably go right over your head: the tides of white racism and fascist sentiment rise and fall independently of black nationalism.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your family owns stock.

Marx didn't say this in order to decry religion per se. He said it in order to show how religion is a relief, a painkiller, for the average worker.

Any leftist who openly decries religion and thinks it needs to be purged in its entirety is retarded and clearly hasn't read that passage from Marx. Also, they should learn from the failures of De-Christianizing factions of the French Revolution.

most undialectical, my man

Well, it's not material to start with.
Everyone on this board has class consciousness, but we aren't out on the streets picking fights with armed police. Class consciousness isn't necessary for a revolution to start because hungry people will instinctively look for food, nor is it sufficient to start a revolution because people with full stomachs and a warm bed generally don't want to get shot.

Referencing historical examples certainly wouldn't hurt.

Quote the part where I said that racism and white muh privilege doesn't exist at all.
What I pointed out is that it is not universal, not is it the root of it's own problem.


But it does. These people white people are egged on by Power and the media every day! They are encouraged to hate black people and keep black people down, so that there is an underclass of cheap labour that can be used a strike-breakers and to pressure wages.


There is no race outside the paradigm of power.


Then that would be the first cultural phenomenon to do so ever. The traditional family and homophobia melted away as bourgeois inheritance rights became irrelevant. Gender roles have shifted hugely after home appliances were invented and women were needed in the work-force instead.

To understand and deal with a problem, you must understand its origins.


You set up the framework of black people versus white people and believe that muh privilege trumps Power somehow. That is exactly what a lot of powerless people are fed up with.


No, many factors are involved. What I said is that the narrative is playing into the hand of the racial conflict that Power wants.
So yes, black nationalism is a manifestation of the will of Power. And just as white nationalism breed black nationalism, black nationalism breeds white nationalism as they are mutually dependent on each other as out-groups to function.
It is a rebellion against Power, but within the framework of what Power wants.
It's the same thing with anti-semitism: it is a rebellion against a percieved power without actually challenging power.

I don't know a single blood relative that owns stock.
like 14% of the population owns any stock at all, so guessing that I'm bourgeois is a ridiculous thing to do.

This.

Religion is not the source of the problem. It should be expunged in the cases where it manifests into an obstacle, but ultimately will fade once education has been made properly available and the crushing alienation and economic distress that pervades the working class has been eliminated. "Opiate of the masses" only describes its function, and religion isn't the sole source of this conflict anyway. I think the dogmatic worship of pseudo-science makes that pretty apparent. It's just ideology.

*or the creations of US imperialism

If you take offence over a person's behavior, sort it out with the person.
Nazis do threaten and kill white commies too, you know.

No I do not know what your definition of sexism is.

Wut?

But you're not an elitist…

So you ARE a liberal who wants to make it all about race!
I never said that! You did!
All I said is skin color doesn't make you more or less class con.

So, it's more important to fight racism first than Capitalism? Or something?

"You are shit, so I'm not". Pol logic, tbh.


"We" are not a seperate entity. Whoever wants to be a socialist joins the fight. We aren't gonna make "Special" factions for "oppressed" people based on skin color. NO WAY!

THE PROLETARIAT HAS NO COUNTRY, SEX, GENDER, RACE OR SKIN COLOR!

Jesus Christ

You've never heard a Leftist get Euphoric?

It has become it's own problem, but is tied in many ways to class issues. If one ceased to exist the other would continue, but if racism ended first classism would recreate it.


There have been four iterations of the Klu Klux Klan. The first was a classic example of the elite utilize racism to protect their interests. The second was an entirely independent phenomenon that originated amongst the urban working class in the North. The third was another classical example. The fourth (and current) Klan is a hybrid of the above two occurrences.

How much do you know about the history of white nationalism?

Tell that to the racial groups of the Congo, or Rwanda.


The problem has the power to self-perpetuate. Like a virus.


No, my framework is that muh privilege and power are separate, but interconnected issues in the same struggle for positive liberty. You project an inaccurate framework onto me because you want to strawman me, ala:


If you were truly opposed to the perpetuation of muh privilege you would recognize a reactionary meme when you saw one. Consider:


Classic colonialist thought.


The tactics and failure to have a clear message DOES play into the hands of reactionaries. But they have plenty of other cards to play, and don't require the misstep.


Yes, everyone has to put down the racism. But while some positions fuel one another the tides are not fully dependent on one another for their ebb and flow.


So offer a hybrid framework that Power won't like.

You come across as well heeled.

You know nothing of the Taliban, Pashtuns, the "Northern Alliance" or what Afghanistan was like before the US even invaded do you?
It's systemic.
Whataboutism.
I won't dignify this.
Requiring others to meet their own standards of behavior is not elitist.
Notice you don't have a rebuttal to "you want to leave blacks out of the revolution"? I note it.
I don't know a black man or a brown person in the US who isn't conscious of his own race. He or she is made to be conscious of it every day whether he or she wills it or not. Point out to them that they can never have alleviation from racism so long as Capitalist oppression exist and watch them line up to fight. If you can link, to them, racism to classism they will achieve class consciousness like it was the Marxist rapture.
Which head of the hydra do you fend off while you go for the heart?
I point out the root of your ineffectiveness: you have no foot soldiers since the right killed unions in the 80's.
Different fights, bigger war.
You bite into right-wing memes without even knowing it. Pathetic for someone who calls himself a Leftist.

Does occupation by Nazi Germany count?

I hate you, 'Muricans. I realy do. And this is why.
THE WORLD IS NOT THE US!

I know what it was like, before the US armed it against the soviets and then left it to become a theocracy.

Ofcourse it is. Then change your system. If it's caused by Capitalism, lets fight Capitalism. If it's not Capitalism, I don't know how I could do anything about it.

Funny. First it was called "And you are lynching Negroes". It was not an argument when the USSR used it. It's not an argument now.
Now, sure, you care about your problems first, but if so, I'll care about mine first.

"brown" is not a race. "Latino" only exists in 'Murica. You are creating racism by seeing color. You stop it by treating everyone the same.

Well, if we go by my local myth, you cut them, you burn them and shove the last one in the ground, since it's immortal.

And you do?
And first of all, what is this "you, we" BS? Aren't we supposed to be all prols? Or are black prols a special kind of prols?
This is why you are a liberal. See now?

The proletariat has no country, is a right wing meme.

OK!

...

No.

The US isn't the sole colonial power of the world.

It was violently tribal and ethnically divided before the Soviets.

Right. Which is why this is circular: you raise class consciousness by linking the racial struggle etc with the class struggle.

I'm accusing you of doing it.
but loloneproletariat amirite?

Brown is shorthand. And you accuse SJWs of projecting racism.

All of the heads though right?

Actually yeah, I do.


They're key to the struggle, because if they attain class consciousness they cannot be rendered so comfortable that they ignore the superstructure given that racism is so intrusive into their lives.

I don't follow the statement you're making.

I do believe that people should be individually judged according to their character, so I don't have "anything against" women, black people, brown people, white people, Asian people, Khoisan people, gays or whatever. Still, class struggle is definitely the most important struggle. This sectarianism is harmful to the left, and allows for SJW nutjobbery.

We must for the proletariat as a whole.

Then why do so many leftists alienate and exclude the broader collective outside of well-heeled Socialists?

Because we're human?

You're right, the left needs more tolerance.

We need to tolerate Nazism, Facism, Liberalism and Nationalism more guys! Check youre pruvileges!

I'm not gonna keep doing this.
I'll just leave this.

Just like Iran…

Create fundamentalism and then complain over reaping what you sow.

Don't forget how the afghan government before the Soviet-Afghan war besides being pro Soviet Union, had a huge communist party following and was secular aswell.

The median income of Trump voters is $72,000, that is well above the national median, and higher than the Democrat voters as a whole.
Trump's support is not an uprising of poor whites, but simply the usual petit-bourgeois turn toward fascism.

sure racial division of labor doesn't exist
good way to argue racism away familia

As a leftover of de jure discrimination. Now they are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of class repression. When the economy starts to crumble, they get shit on first.

You don't understand. The boogey man is racism. The enemy is capitalism. We recognize racism exist as a result of capitalism. And we preach that. But it's not the white prole is less important than the black one. It's: we have all suffered from the system, some more than others. We can all end our struggle my banding together. That's how it works. I'm not gonna alienate someone by telling them they should feel bad cause they're white. I'll treat their struggle with the same respect as the black person.

So things are predetermined and inevitable but people can also change things? That makes no god damn sense

this

...

yeah right fuck off

This place is full of brocialist pseuds, OP. I dunno what you expected.

...

All true. New atheists, antifeminists, libertarians, these people have become so groupthink that it's impossible to see them as humans anymore
=(

This.
is literally what Marx is saying in

Is this supposed to be your defense of banking or are you just implying we're ignorant of it?