Be a socialist

How? It has been designed to not be affected by the popular vote or sentiment

EU cannot be reformed to make it a pro-socialist union unless you make anybody working in it a socialist, which is not likely.

The Czar didn't desing Russia that way either. All am saying is we can use the idea of a united europa.

+1
reformism is never good.

kek

what a surprise. I bet you like to talk about the evils of social media too

Am talking about using the idea of the EU to promote revolution within the EU.

United Europe Revolting.

News flash: Even if you leave the EU you'll still be ruled by a right-wing government supported by a right-wing population. Unless you're proposing an independence movement for your house, it will achieve nothing.

In fact, the EU is relatively leftist compared to the UK.

Rolled 2 (1d6)even - in
odd - out

Yeah, so fucking leftist that they put Syriza in a choke-hold until they fully commit to neoliberal turbocapitalism and complete sellout.

The EU is a fucking hydra, and anybody who calls himself far-left and still supports the EU is a useful idiot to them. If you do not live in the EU you cannot understand this.

Syriza was never socialist in the first place, they were just another gibsmedat social democrat party

Syriza was socialist.
KKE is not the only socialist party, you know…

So let me get this straight.

Syriza was never socialist, only social democrats. Thus, they cannot be considered leftists.

The EU then, was justified to force Syriza into going full capitalism, because they weren't full-blown socialists. The EU, in comparison to the UK, is actually "relatively" leftist.

Having a radical faction inside of a centre-left party doesn't make it socialist.

It does. When it's the main original faction.
Getting rid of it makes it a non-socialist party.

So the most radical faction of a political party is what sets it's ideology? I guess the Democrats and Republicans must be commies and fascists then.

Who cares if they made SocDem policy after all? Tsipras started out being a Maoist, Varoufakis as a socialist libertarian. They united because it was a fucking emergency.

I mean, look at this board. People tearing each others ideologies apart, every week there is a thread "give me one reason why I should trust a marxists statist". Nothing ever gets done. You gotta fucking grow up, when people stop getting a single € of welfare, when people start to live like in Africa on the richest continent on the world, you put your petty ideological debates aside and create a united leftist/socialist front to put a stop to all this.

They betrayed their own party just to get elected and the EU's pressure on them to be more right win doesn't help. Syriza is not socialist

You need to realize that the terms "socialism" and "communism" are fucking dead to the people. You can not sell them to the public anymore. Mabye this will change in like 50 year or so.

Syriza did what they could, they united the alt-left under one banner with a common goal and postponed the ideological differences. Syriza did not fail because of it's reformism. Syriza did not turn into neoliberal social democracy becase they were just liberals who never read Marx.

No, they were fucking forced to adapt to the neoliberal NWO shit that the EU is. What would you have done? When you have to choose between ideological purity and the economical collapse of your people? Wait, since you are a tankie, this question is redundant.

It wasn't, tho.

There already was a communist party in Greece that consisted mostly of LARPers like you and got nothing done.

Syriza was designed as a compromise. It was never supposed to be a flawless materialisation of Marxism. I never called them socialist btw.

And how exactly is being outside of it going to help change it? I.e removing out voting 'rights' etc? I'm pretty heavily eurosceptic but it isn't going to go away because we leave and British people certainly aren't going to be able to help reform it from the outside so your point is nonsensical. Also we will essentially still be beholden to its wishes seeing as how eurozone countries are our largest trading partners. Also if you want a shittone of refugees and immigrants leaving countries like Croatia, Romania, Albania etc to deal with the current crisis on their own is a sure fire way to make sure they will collapse and their populations become potential refugees themselves. The best strength is strong neighbours you have a good relationship with.

21st century """""""""socialism"""""""""

an economic collapse would be a good thing. socialism can only be built by revolution. even if syriza was a left party then them being elected wouldn't do shit but give handouts and appease the population for a little longer. like giving a treat to a dog

Go watch some Alex Jones or something

And anarchists are supposed to be the idealists?

This is not what the EU is doing these days. Tension between countries and people rise accordingly as the EU gets more power. You, like so many of us, fail to see that we are victims of it's propaganda.

What's going to help to get out of it? A fucking chance to establish socialism maybe? Just because the EU fucks over the alt-right does not mean it doesn't fuck over the alt-left as well.

20th century """"socialism"""

I'm a socialist but I also like mass misery, particularly for working class people, because recessions barely affect the rich.

You know not everything you say has to be contrarian you edgy fucking retard

Stop squabbling over the economic issues, please. These are a sideshow. From where I sit, the EU is quite obviously intended to replicate the functionality of the federal government in the U.S.

Burgers, do you think this is a structure others should be seeking to replicate?

Yo, life was surely easier in 1917.

...

no, the recent spring of division has been caused by the destabilisation of the Middle East which has caused an influx of immigration, combined with the fact the nothing changed after the recessions beginning in 2007. Failures of capitalism have been blamed on immigration. How exactly is leaving the eu going to bring about socialism? You realise most of Europe has a stronger socialist tradition than Britain does, why on earth would handing a victory to the Tories help bring about socialism? You do realise Eu treaties are a large part of the defence of workers rights in Britain yes?

I never called them socialist.

NWO might be a buzzword, you are willing to provide me with a better term?

Also, explain to me why a pan-european project wants to add fucking Turkey to it's realm.

That's a no, then?

Oh and also this whole "alt left" "alt right" bullshit is basically just terms for people who learned their beliefs from dubious blogs rather than actual study.

Yes mr Ike, it's called international capitalism, specifically neoliberalism

Kek, they've been trying to get into EU since 1987 and Brussels is just too nice to say "no"

You have a black flag yet you sound like a neoliberal. Isn't giving the workers handouts and superficial protection what we all despise here as liberal reformism?

Immigration is a whole different topic on it's own. Why do you think are they so keen to support this sort if immigration? Yes, to undermine workers rights.

Do you live in Europe? In my country, union-rights and tariff-strikes have been pretty much abolished since we join the EU. Give up your rights, give up your democracy, give up any sort of workplace democracy that you have left, we EU technocrats will lead us into a glorious neoliberal consumerist utopia.

Turkey was always divided about this. Why is this even a topic? What cultural or geographical ties does Turkey have with Europe? That 5% backyard of Istanbul? It's not socialist internationalism. It's spreading technocratic neoliberal bullshit. Call me spooked if you want

You didn't answer my question, how is leaving the eu going to bring about socialism?

what about leaving the eu isn't liberal reformism?

So you are saying we do away with these things, benefits etc, because that will bring about socialism?

What benefits you are talking about? Workers rights? Again this might be something that has to distinguished between the countries we talk about. I do not deny that some countries do gained advantages. Yes, they do have some labor standards, but they also standardize them all across the EU without leaving any room to agitate for even more left-wing ideas. It's a big circlejerk in Brussels. And in my country employee rights have been infringed over the past years. Again, do you live in Europe?

You ask me what could we gain from exiting the EU. Well what about getting a democratic framework in an independent country where we can actually change society? I mean, you may just look at Greece. Look to Spain if Podemos gets elected.

You think the EU is gonna let you have your socialist revolution? The EU is your enemy. It is not democratic. If you can not see this you are truly a useful idiot.

With this argument you can as well argue that Nazi wasn't that bad since it did more for the workers than the liberal governments before, kek.

Because Ataturk and later his Kemalist followers have been total euroboos to the point they've modeled Turkey in an European fashion. They just wanted to be recognised by EU-senpai for being heavily secular, republican and such

Fine, but you see the tendencies to monopolize and centralize capitalist power? It's not just international capitalism. I mean, a capitalist would argue that this is actually NOT capitalism because it lacks competition and diversity.

wew

EU is shit.
We all know that.

But, to leave it entirely and let it desolve earlier that it will…. I don't see how ti serves anything.

Just like staying in, so and getting out doesn't fix anything.

Now, that said, the Eurozone is another story!

Actually, a lot of it also originated from embracing turkish nationalism, their heritage from Central Asia, and therefore break with Ottoman-style muslim univeralism.

Anyway, the Kemalists have been marginalized these days.

This is why not even turks care about getting into EU anymore and Turkey turned back to the Middle East

It does not fix anything, but I'd like to see a socialist revolution before I have to be spoonfed in a retirement home. I guess I just anticipate the possibility of a socialist revolution in a country that broke ties with the EU as far more realistic. Countries are clay, the EU is fixed and can not be changed, by the way it was designed.

They still like to meddle in European affairs though. And this whole refugee crisis turned over the whole situation with the EU actually being the suppliant now.

I live in Britain, no you mentioned "hand outs" are you suggesting we take these away in order to establish socialism?

And sure, it isn't democratic. The nature of the beast however is that stay or go European policy will still decide our fate. Better to have a shit say in that then no say at all. Unless you are one of these 'voting legitimises the system' people, in which case, voting out also legitimises this system.

In case you hadnt noticed the vast majority of people voting out aren't doing it for democracy, they just want to build wall and "have better trade deals" I.e lower tariffs and further erode workers rights in order to make things easier for large corporations.

Capitalism centralises sure. Is there supposed to be a point contending one of my points in the rest of this waffle?

Alright, this goes nowhere. You know why people wanna build walls and flock to the alt-right? Because they hate the way this system works and are looking for an alternative. They don't all want nationalism. Europa is not the EU. It's just that the alt-right has proven to be an option to makes neoliberal bureaucrats shit-afraid.

Meanwhile, even the most die-hard communist and anarchist groups gladly take their money through funds and donations to get an official certificate to march against the right, or to set some trashcans on fire and get away with it. This is the sad condition the alt-left is in. You seem to apply marxist theory to the EU and are like "this transnational congolomerate seems to be a good framework to apply an international socialist revolution" while denying the reality.

I agree with you on one thing: Having the EU is still good to deal with mega-corps like Google. However, this is not enough for me to support an organisation that so far has only subverted and crushed any left-wing movement.

this

pfft, still more socialist than America, and America is not about to undergo financial doom.

While it might not seem particularly pro-active and definitely not even slightly revolutionary to support what is essentially the status-quo, it's blindingly obvious at this point that a victory for the leave campaign would be a massive victory for the far-right.

The right-wing media machine has been the very reason we've had basically failure after failure for years to institute any kind of meaningful left-wing politics in this country, and regardless of how I might feel the composition of the EU, neo-liberalism, ect., I know that the way THIS debate has been framed means there is basically no real victory for the left either way; you can try and convince yourself that one outcome is more favourable than the other, but in reality, there's no victory for the left under these terms.

I actually believe pretty strongly there will be another EU referendum several years from, and maybe at that point, the debate could have an actual left-wing voice, one that isn't simply framed in terms of the exploitable spectres haunting the far-right. By that point, looking long-term at the way they operate, they will have basically cannibalised themselves. Their ideologies are not self-sustaining, which is why they're so desperate to get their hands on any kind of democratically-legitimized authority they can.

So for that reason I'm going to hold my nose and vote remain. The right-wing have shown that they are perfectly willing to dominate either by hook or by crook, so pre-emptively playing in their hands at such a crucial stage would be suicide.

Have you been watching the markets lately?

We are literally in the twilight zone right now.

Would you support a united Europe in principle if it was socialist?

Britain is a mess, but these people seem to think leaving the EU will make it better. Lol. youtube.com/watch?v=wCP0R3Z6T58

What is the point of the EU exactly?

It seems to be the UEFA to the UN's FIFA, more exciting, but essentially the same thing

The problem with the EU is that it's not under socialist principles, it's very much a neoliberal institution.

And the UK isn't?

Remember when UE listened to the French people rejecting the constitution and the Greek people rejecting austerity? Me neither

On what evidence?

The referendum isn't about right vs left
it's about whether you think britain should be a vassal state or a nation state

To exist as a counterbalance against the Soviet Union and it's bloc countries.

That was NATO. The EU didn't exist in its modern form until 1993.

All politics is speculation, but the general sense of disenfranchisement and feeling that neo-liberal economics as a whole are dying is what makes me feel that a second referendum will happen eventually if remain win. The results are looking to be very close, so the wounds which have been opened are not going to heal any time soon. Most of the actual fears about the EU are really things that, if they were to happen, are very unlikely to happen in anyone's lifetime here (the EU is simply too inefficient and bureaucratic to really make anything meaningful happen honestly), and still no one has been able to point to a credible bit of specific EU legislation which directly threatens national democracy in a meaningful way right now.

That said, my problem is less so with even the idea of pulling out of the EU, moreso with the terms upon which it is being debated. This is something people really SHOULD care about, because these would dictate the kind of country the UK will turn into, and unlike anything the EU could do, these changes could happen very fast. To me this, whole referendum is not really even about the EU, it's the death of neo-liberal economics, but more importantly who is going to be taking over. The mood feels rife right now for an incredibly authoritarian element to step in and take over, and with more and more restrictions of freedom of expression being enacted by purely domestic policy, I think we're already going in that direction.

Am I wrong to feel that, just because I consider one nation just a fallible and capable of shooting itself in the foot just as much as any other nation? The nationalist rhetoric doesn't resonate with me; nations have come and gone, and I get the impression that a lot of people equate the need for a hypothetical future threat to national sovereignty with their own desire for self-preservation, but those two are not always be interconnected. Historically, ordinary people have gladly accepted authoritarian regimes acting against their own self-interests in the name of a nation, and nationalism knows it can exploit this to serve the will of small of minority with even greater force than it does under the current models. Nationalism has proven to be one of the oldest scams in the book which still somehow works.

Again, I'll reiterate that there's nothing particularly glamorous about the idea of maintaining the status quo, which is why it's so hard to condense it into memetic soundbites, but I am convinced that doing nothing as outdated economic systems fail is the smartest thing do right now. In fact, you're more likely to see the EU fold naturally than it ever becoming any kind of credible threat.

the communist party of britain is pro leave
really makes you think eh lefties

The alt-right is for leaving therefore we must be for staying

#HailFuhrerMerkel

...

Fucking nationalists.

I don't have sovereignty. The UK government has sovereignty, and given how right-wing and generally ignorant the voters are, the UK government will not be any better than the EU government.

If this was an independence movement for any country to the left of Brussels I'd support it, but it isn't.

Jesus Christ you're so stupid you missed the point of the post so much you go and type out this shit, which is exactly the kind of post I was making fun of. Wew lad.

You probably can't even explain how the EU actually makes policy.

Protip: it's designed that way.

I'll be honest, I read the first sentence and then dismissed you as an idiot.
Having read your post fully, I realise my initial assessment was too generous.

The commission (chosen by national governments of the member states and approved by the parliament) writes draft policies.
The parliament (elected by the citizens) votes on those laws.
All votes require a supermajority to pass, and can be vetoed.

I'm fairly sure that 99% correct. I did it from memory, since I spend half a thread yesterday explaining this shit to an idiot who was claiming that the UK is more democratic than the EU.

Be a socialist. Demand more sovereignity for the inventor of capitalism.

How do you respond?

Don't worry, I'm sure we can reform the UK from the inside. That always works. We just have to wait for Labour to get elected, and then we'll be able to use our sovereignty to bring about socialism.

Also, this particular bit of illogic is particularly hilarious:

If the latter is true, the former can't be. Any genuinely leftist government could easily call a referendum again.

And you don't see a problem with that?

Parliaments don't actually create policy, they just greenlight them. Policy creation, aka the most important part of the process, is created by unelected officials, which will lead to nepotism, assuming we already aren't at this point.

If there were to be a socialist revolution in a country what would it matter whether it is a member of the EU or not? The new socialist dictatorship could simply cancel its EU membership once it has the power.
International treaties are spooks.

The parliament is chosen by a combination of our national governments and our MEPs. The voting system for MEPs (PR) is more democratic than our national voting system (FPTP), so what's the problem?

|Sorry, meant the commission.

Tonny Benn said it so it must be true.

Has anyone seen the papers today? Fucking lol.

(okay, the star one doesn't have anything to do with the eu but included just for somehow looking even more insipid than 'take a shit' magazine)

If you're seriously voting to stay you're a chickenshit liberal and I'm not surprised you post on a brocialist hub like leftypol

...

Private Eye column on the issue sent out today:

"More tit-for-tat hostilities in the civil war between Daily Mail editor Paul Dace and Geordie Greig, his opposite number on the Sunday title and would-be successor.

On 9 June the daily paper ran a big story on '[David] Mellor's lust for money and why he's being sued over a £30m land deal'. Mail hack Ruth Sunderland observed that the former Tory minister 'writes newspaper columns on opera and sport, which might strike those with long memories as ironic - unkind souls might even say hypocritical. For around the time of his extra-marital affair with Antonia de Sancha, he was culture secretary with responsibility for the media and appeared to support tough new regulation of the press'. And for whom does Mellor write his classical music column? The Mail on Sunday.
Three days later, the MoS was crowing over 'a remarkable exclusive ' in its Event magazine, as JK Rowling 'gives her unique and tantalising insight into what we can expect from the theatrical sequel to her seven [Harry Potter] books'. Rowling is a Dacre hate-figure because of her evidence to Leveson and support for Hacked Off, so the Daily Mail had to respond.
Jan Moir was sent into battle the next day.
'You have to wonder when the Harry Potter marketing wizards are ever going to stop squeezing money out of this most prized of cash cows', she opined. 'It is ironic that the famously libertarian, free speech-supporting Rowling always champions the rights of others to say or write what they want - unless she is asking for her audience to keep quiet.'
Geordie Greig escalated the conflict. Last weekend's Mail on Sunday ran the headline 'JK Rowling: I'm backing Remain', thus giving Paul Dacre two seizures for the price of one as it appeared in a multi-page extravaganza in which Greig also prevailed upon Richard Branson, Andrew Lloyd-Webber and Ian McEwan to echo the MoS's own editorial stance - 'we urge you to VOTE REMAIN' - which is, by no coincidence at all, the exact opposite of Dacre's."

Your perfect movement is never going to exist; the very nature of the EU internal markets and migration is what has resulted in a band of far-right headbangers leading the charge to leave. This is the is also the only vote on the matter that many of us are going to be allowed in our lives. Of course change is dangerous and the short term fallout is going to be very nasty indeed. I say stop being perfect, I say lets evolve, let the chips fall where they may.

UK newspapers are really awful.

It's no surprise that the worst of them are peddling more anti-EU propaganda.

Moving randomly for the sake of moving is a terrible idea and an even worse justification.

How do you respond to ?

shiggidiggy

Tabloid trash 'real life' stories I can almost understand, wanting to see a trainwreck is a natural human urge, but I don't get why someone would pick up a newspaper and go 'Aha! The Queen's biographer thinks she's a Eurosceptic, I'm voting leave!'. I mean christ

ARE NIGE

...

...

..is not what I am doing. Cheap builders and au pairs for the middle classes are not in my interests.

That post focuses on the after effects of of a successful revolution, not the fact that the EU's presence inhibits one by causing the masses to be forced into alignment with the far right.

Protections on workers' rights are in your interests though, right?
Anyway, someone doesn't stop being working class just because they were born on the other side of a small strip of water.

You blame the EU for britain being a right-wing shithole, despite the fact that britain is further to the right than most of the EU? No, what makes the UK right-wing is the absurd scale of propaganda and outright lies the media have been pushing for decades. Every single pro-brexit headline I've seen has been outright false. Every discussion in the media of capitalism or the banking crisis is dominated by self-congratulatory bankers defending themselves.

The UK is to blame for the UK's problems. Becoming more nationalist and isolationist won't fix that.

The EU is a paper tiger on this.

It doesn't stop them being scabs, either. Polish migrant labour has been used for force through zero hour contracts in the factories in my area.

Again, EU migrants are being brought in as scab labour to undermine my working conditions and social income. It might be all perfume and rose to spoilt middle class shits who don't have to worry about putting food on the table, but that's their problem.

What makes you think migrant quotas won't increase / zero-hour contracts won't be extended under a Leave vote?

Also, migration is a condition of our free trade with europe. Leaving the EU will not get us out of the free trade agreement.

I don't. The status-quo you support seems quite happy with them. Taking a gamble can therefore only benefit me.

Baby steps…

I don't support the EU, but it's the last line of defence against my liberties and freedom in the UK.

The freedom and liberties of UK citizens has been taken away progressively, and eventually the only thing stopping it from going full blown is going to be the EU, and not the Bill of Rights drafted up by a government that was only elected by 35% of the population.

You already can't view lolicon. They're waiting to take away more freedom and rights, and especially giving up the right to easy access to Europe if the Tories really mess it up.

Reminder also that Labour voted for the surveillance laws very recently. They're no better.

This is why I am voting to remain tomorrow.

Yeah, you know what, you're right. Giving the tories free reign to rewrite human rights laws as they see fit can only end well.

I plan on leaving the country anyway, so I hope you enjoy your socialist revolution led by Boris "let's bring back workhouses" Johnson.

Also, have a read of this.
politicalscrapbook.net/2016/06/a-fed-up-man-has-taken-out-a-full-page-ad-in-the-metro-to-make-his-point-about-the-eu-referendum/

It isn't a gamble.

Criticism of a vote to Leave is also not a sign of support for an imaginary 'status quo'. That you rest the entire weight of the issue on an unquestionable prejudice of support shows how fucking gullible you are.

Here's to hoping you can read the writing on the ballot card tomorrow.

Did you miss where I happily admitted that things would be shit in the short term? You know that no parliament can bind a future one, right? You know Labour will get a go on the merry go round in a few years, right?

Oh noes, you'll have to apply for a visa!

What point do you want to make with it?

Then nothing will change and I will have lost nothing. No, things continuing to get shitter is not a change.

Except for where expresses:

Did you miss the remarks about the scab workers or are you just upset that I injected some polemic? Shall I fetch the John Harris' article in The Graun that admits it's overwhelmingly the lower economic bandings who wish to leave? Perhaps I should have invited you to the discussion I've been involved in with my activist group?

World smallest violin playing in sympathy

Completely tautological. You're arguing yourself into this because you want to. The moment anybody picks up on the fact that your change-the-status-quoism isn't what it appears to be gets hounded down by how fucking noble you are.

Or did you miss the remark made that migration quotas won't be lowered.
Or did you miss the remark made that zero hour work contracts will be extended.

You sound like that fucking faggot Wessex Solidarity.

Thank god you're organizing die-ins and handing out leaflets in Tory safeholds and you're marching in the off-day demonstrations or slamming the middle class for what they are.

If labour are so great, what makes you think they wouldn't run another referendum once they were in power? Could it be that you secretly realise that there's not a hope in hell of a genuinely left-wing government getting into power any time soon?

0.5% population growth a year is well within what our society should be capable of dealing with. Migration should not be able to threaten workers' rights on any significant scale if they make up such a small fraction of population growth. If you want someone to blame for zero hour contracts, you should look no further than the people in power in this country.

No, your problem is that I'm am expressing an opinion you don't like. The EU is on the same trajectory as the UK, just a little back in time. I've already dealt with your complaints and you seem to have missed that the far-right headbangers have made promises to their supporters about migration…

I've already told you that the consequences of EU migration is pushing people to the right.

That's not a small fraction. They're nearly the entire effect. ( vide: google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_grow&idim=country:GBR:USA&hl=en&dl=en ) furthermore, the UK has ~750,000 job vacancies and ~1.3 million unemployed ( last time I checked this was accurate ). Sure, the people in power are to blame as you remark, but it's people in power across the EU. I've mentioned the mini-job and Hartz IV reforms in Germany before. Germany has issues with migration as well, IIRC.

I appreciate you're engaging in good faith but I'm beginning to feel we're going around in circles.

That is offensive to african PoCs, please delete this.

You're expressing an opinion based on absolute conjecture. Whether you want to fan wank about it or not is fine.

A vote for leave is a conscious vote in support of nationalism. Its association has a real material basis. Peddling support for a change in political rhetoric is little different than arguing that the Labour Party and the Tories are the same thing; all it involves is moving the base-line back to the right.

You have yet to explain why this is a good thing. Maybe you can copy and paste a chat log to do so.

Yeah, we are going round in circles I think.

I hope that whichever of us is ultimately correct gets their way. I suspect the whole issue is too complex for any single human to comprehend in its entirety, so it's very possible I'm wrong.

Shit bait.

Look on the bright side: we can tease the people canvassing at the polling station.

Sick.

The only purpose of the EU is to consolidate capital. Anyone who calls themselves a "socialist" and votes to stay in is the ultimate neoliberal classcuck.

This graph is a good rebuttal to the argument that EU migration hurts wages.

Sorry but Viper is a person of colour and as such is entitled to express his culture in such a way.

Please do not whitesplain in future.

SJW's GET OFF MY Holla Forums REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

It's a meme you dip

Anyway.

Can anyone give me a good reason to not vote remain? You have a couple hours if you want to change my mind.

the revolution has to be internationalist. the EU is a small step into the right direction.

The EU is the pinnacle of bourgeois internationalism.

It's like saying decolonization was bad for socialism because colonial empires were international.

It sounds more like you just don't like internationalism. The EU is not comparable to colonial empires, principally because it's democratic and member states have a large degree of autonomy.

What is more bourgeois about the EU than the UK? It's our government who are pushing TTIP and its ilk.

left/pol/'s attitude to a T.

shiggy.

I'm not against internationalism. I think we have to recognize a distinction between internationalism that's good for revolution and internationalism structured for the bourgeoisie.

And the thing is the EU isn't "more" bourgeois than the UK but it doesn't matter as it's not an either or problem. If we remain the UK doesn't just go away, with remaining you get stuck with both rather than having just one bourgeois government as opposed to two bourgeois governments at once.

No point in staying. Nothing about the EU supports our cause.

That's not how it works. The EU laws take priority over those of our government, so the EU acts as a check on the power of the conservatives (or new labour) to fuck things up.

Just listening to the government talk about how they want to create a new "British bill of rights" if/when we leave should be enough to terrify you. They consider all of those silly protections against torture and surveillance to be burdensome in the "war on terror". Hint: they consider anyone posting on this board to be a potential terrorist.

This is a bad thing. Having these kinds of so-called checks and balances invariably is never benevolent. It's just a way of preserving the power of the ruling class.

And this is true in the EU no matter how you swing it. Would the EU act as a check against reactionaries? Yes, of course. But it would also act as a big check in the unlikely scenario that a real socialist government were to take power in Britain.

At this point it's just pure (and speculative) lesser-evilism because the EU is just as contrary to our interests (perhaps even more) as the government. The EU cause fucking things up when they enforce policies of austerity and so forth to benefit the capitalist masters that it serves.

If you think the law is going to stop the government from torturing and spying on "terrorists" you're an idiot.

During the Troubles a lot of the tactics used by British security forces were blatantly illegal. Having a piece of paper saying "not allowed" has never and will never stop the government from abusing human rights if it so much as feels like it.

Why couldn't a real socialist government just leave the EU? What is this magical rule which means that only Conservative governments are allowed to have referendums?

They could have a referendum.

But it wouldn't make a difference if the people voting in it are still of the mindset that the EU is good.

But apparently having a piece of paper saying "not allowed" will completely crush any hope of a socialist government doing socialist things. Do you even read what you post?

When my whole argument is that it's bad to leave because the UK government is worse, what makes you think I'd still oppose a leave vote if the UK had a socialist government?
Fucking hell.

Well they could just override the law but I was operating on the premise that it would be a non-dictatorship.

Because it's extremely short sighted. The tories are probably not going to be in power for much longer. We might not get another referendum in our lifetime.

Can anyone give me three good reasons to vote remain?

You realise we're not getting this chance again? If remain wins then the EU will go for much deeper integration and we'll be a part of it. Jesus fucking christ it takes two years at least for the process to complete. That takes us to 2018. At which time you've only got 2 years more tory maximum. It strikes me that you and other people following your rationale are more concerned about denying the right a victory than the actual substance of the issue.

Just voted.

Going to head to the polls very soon, I've been leaning towards remain, but my mind's kind of changing when I think about who supports remain and who it serves.

I work for a european firm and there is a good chance I might lose my jerb. Also while I despise little-englanders, the reds advocating brexit haven't said how they plan to deal with the consequences beyond brexit being a 'blow against the ruling class'.

Fuck me, I honestly can't make up my mind.

The EU lets far-right politicians like GD, FPO, Jobbik, FN and UKIP make laws that affect everyone in Europe.

In the UK, UKIP has a single MEP. In Brussels, UKIP has more than any other UK party and more than many countries like Ireland and Sweden have in total.

That's right, the entire Swedish delegation to the EU Parliament is around the size of UKIP's delegation.

For a socialist Europe, we need to turn individual nations socialist and then build a socialist grouping between them, outside the EU. Then countries wanting in to that group will become socialist, instead of becoming more capitalist like they do for the EU. Bonus: It could be democratic too, unlike the EU.

I knew left/pol/ was full of cucks. Well user. Enjoy the EU and ever closer union.

Why was it an assassination? Because it was politically motivated?

Oh, I'm well aware of that because the UK is never going to have this magical fucking unicorn of a socialist government you keep talking about as if it's just around the corner. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Corbyn isn't going to be the fucking socialist messiah who wins with 80% of the vote and puts a hammer and sickle on the UK flag. The UK population are mostly liberal "moderates" and conservatives. The socialist/communist parties never get more than ~1% of the vote in any area. I'm not thinking short term - I'm planning for the next 50 years, and we're not going to see any glorious revolution in that time.

I've analysed the substance of the issue a hell of a lot more than you have. Most of the anti-EU shit posted in this thread is simply factually incorrect. The leave supporters don't seems to have even a rudimentary understanding of how the EU government works.
Anyway, I'd rather deny the right-wing a victory than hand the country to them on a silver platter while thanking them for being such generous job creators.

You mean unlike the UK, right?
You even admit that UKIP are better represented in the EU than the UK government.

Without proportional representation we have no chance for socialism, if UKIP gets enough votes they should have however much percent representation. I voted for Greens at MEP and they got in.

If you think Cameron's backers are going to let this affect their corporations, you have another thing coming.

The key in this vote is that it lets Brits (and more Europeans after more states leave) control capitalism and corporations themselves democratically, away from the Brussels lobbyists.

You really have an incredibly high opinion of democracy in the UK don't you?
Please just take a look at and then try to repeat, with a straight face, that Brits have democratic control over capitalism and corporations. As for lobbyists, we have plenty of our own right here in London.

Why brits are reading so much paper btw? What's the thing with all these tabloids?

Yes FPTP a shit. But no more so than an unelected, unaccountable EU commission. Smaller states are always going to be better able to represent thier people. This is why I voted yes in Scottish referendum. This is why I vote brexit today.

A vote for Brexit isn't endorsement of FPTP. I've not seen Brussels attack our electoral system and demand something more representative of popular will.

Mods ban this cunt he's doing it everywhere.

What are you sliding you kike rat?

This fucking bullshit again. Please stop telling such blatant lies. Let me explain it really clearly:

The EU parliament is elected democratically.
The UK government is elected "democratically".
The EU commission is selected from the governments of member states (1 seat per nation) and approved by the EU parliament.

If you think that's undemocratic, I can't imagine you have a high opinion of the House of Lords.

It is when you claim that the EU is less democratic than the UK. A lie which is getting endlessly repeated here.

What are you sliding you kike rat?

...

Good. You admit that the UK has no democracy then?

Fuck off. The UK cannot be fixed if, as you admit, it has no democracy.

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What's the problem?

And they want you to stay in the EU. Because it's easier for them to lobby there, they get away with it more, they can team up with corporates in other countries to do so, and they affect more people when they do so. The EU is a union when it benefits corporations and 28 states when it comes to workers.

This too. If you don't like FPTP, blame the LibDems for their sucky AV referendum and join the calls for a PR referendum in 2020.

Electoral system is nothing to do with the EU. Many EU states use PR. So should they all leave but the UK?

In a sense it is. You're playing with words. How can you claim that a law making body making laws for 500million people is more representative that a governemnt making laws for 60 million. If you can't see how this will lead to 'one size fits all' lowest common denominator type laws then I can't help you.

Oh. Also this. This doc alone is reason enough to vote Brexit.

In short yes, but more accurately not quite.

It's pretty undemocratic, but it doesn't have no democracy. Especially since the house of commons is extremely powerful whereas the European parliament is absolutely useless.

If the house of lords was a smidgen as powerful as the European commission (which it once was) then I suppose it'd be different, but as it stands the UK is the slightly more democratic of the two.

So the UK cannot be fixed but the EU can? You're a joke m8.

Neither of them are representative of me. One is slightly more left-wing than the other. It's a matter of picking the lesser evil.

You realise that the UK is the main proponent of TTIP in the EU, right? We'd bend over backwards to deepthroat America's cock whether we were in the EU or out.

You know what, this thread has really highlighted to me just how absolutely ignorant and dim-witted nationalists and brexiters are. I hope you all get the country you deserve.

Way to dodge the point.

Go on then lad. Three good reasons to stay in. Go on. Make the positive case.

The commission (indirectly elected) can't make any laws without going through the PR elected parliament, which can block any decision. How's having an entire upper legislator made up of unelected appointees, heredity peers and religious clergy? How's having an elitist government elected on 24% of the vote? How's having a head of state not in anyway elected, but ‘chosen by God’? How's having Scottish MPs being able to vote on English only issues, but not vice verse? If you want to complain about democracy, start with your own country.

The EU does this thing where if they don't get their way they just make everyone vote again til they do. See, Ireland and Netherlands.

What was the total turnout over Europe at the last european election?

We are. And the first thing that must be done is bring full accountability back to the UK.

Then PR

Then Scottish independence

Voter turnout is a problem in many countries, but just because some people can't be arsed to vote doesn't say anything about democracy.

This is why left/pol/ needs IDs.

My point was about that oft cited 24% claim. That's better than Tony Blair did in all but his first term for example. FPTP is the problem here. I think we all agree on that.

Great. Can't wait for this lot to bring full democracy to the UK.

Can you point out the specific posts you're talking about?

is this actually true?

One selfish part of me does hope for a Brexit vote, just to see the look the Brexiter's faces after the way it will turn out. The same part of me wants to see Trump elected as president.

Pro-Leave poster here, the truth is we really don't know.

On the one hand, at the moment the UK could hold a new referendum after any election.

On the other hand, the EU treaties currently permit leaving. If that changed, then a brexit would be illegal unilateral secession.

The Green Party want the EU treaties to be subject to amendment by pan-EU referendums. If that were to happen, the rest of the EU could ban a member from leaving. The Green Party won't get their way now, but the fact that that arrangement is being talked about by politicians is enough to make me want the UK out now.

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According to Nigel Farage, there should be another referendum if the result is close. As if one referendum hasn't divided the population enough.

It is a bit ironic that Brexit will kill UKIP but staying in will keep it going or even give it an SNP style boost.

The last vote was 40 years ago. 40 years from now we'll be too integrated.

Funny. I'm the opposite. I want to see the libtards reveling in Clinton and EU membership. Honestly if you think Clinton and the EU are the lesser of two evils, you've not been paying attention.

I don't think it will be like the SNP; the SNP effectively replaced Labour as the progressive party in the same way Labour replaced the Liberals in the early 20th century.

You reaslie you can vote them out in a few years?

Me neither. It will be a boost, but not enough to replace the Tories except in the one or two most eurosceptic counties in the South. UKIP could give the LibDems a run for their money though, in local government and vote share at least, if not MPs.

That made me kek. KKE stopped being socialist decades ago. What is left of it is just a crutch to the rotten parliamentarism of Greece. Their only job is to do the play the reactonary role to attract all the conservative leftists that don´t want to vote for a right or center(-left) wing party. Then they act as a silent supporter of whoever is in charge.

Syriza started as a unification of all the small left parties but eventually grew to become a instrument for power-hungry Tsipras (and his entourage).

As far as I am concerned, every party willing to enter the Greek parliament is (or will eventually become) a servant of the status quo. The change wont be a product of the current system but it can only come through acts of its desctruction.

Really? Good luck having your taxes being spend on a wall across mainly fucking desert. Trump is a good at accumulating support from dumbass nationalists with his knee-jerk reaction responses, he would be a disaster as president.

Let's face it, Clinton is not hated because of her policies, but because she's ‘too establishment’, and ‘too mainstream’. I can't see her making any meaningful changes while in power; but no change is better than bad change. America will be a laughing stock to the world if Trump is elected, even more so than it was under Bush.

Trump is doing exactly what he talks about in the Art of the Deal.

Make your initial offer big and flamboyant, so that when it comes down to negotiating for real you can get more than you actually would have been willing to settle for. There is no way on Earth the US is actually going to build a giant wall along its southern border.

Ah some socialists back then (before WWI) thought like that. It was Lenin who changed the dominant view that colonialism (as an imperialism) was of no use.

Actually it's both. Clinton is yet to find a war she doesn't love. That she is such a hawk is for me reason enough not to vote for her.

Even if no change means war with Iran?

*the dominant view into the view that

Some leftists seem to be backing Trump just because he's opposed the Iraq war, ‘he must be against war.’ What deluded bullshit. I'd love to see America's place in the world when it's pissed off every Islamic, Latin American country and China.

War with Iran? Didn't Clinton support Obama's Iran deal, and Trump oppose it?

Clinton is a hawk through and through. If the AIPAC tells her to war Iran, she wars Iran.

Not predicting what the result will be, but a poll published this morning (the largest) put remain 10 points ahead, and the most recent poll of polls puts remain on 52%. I hope nationalism fails.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-remain-vote-leave-live-latest-who-will-win-results-populus-a7097261.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Standard_polling_on_EU_membership

Lolno.

reminder that France will send all of their immigrants to the UK if we leave

That wouldn't be very nice of them. But there's what, 3-4000 people in the two camps? If this is the price of Freedom, so be it.

DEATH TO TRAITORS

That's nonsense.
The EU parliament cannot initiate legislation to begin with, only the EU comission and obviously there is no member of any eurosceptic or nationalist party in the EU comission and would never be allowed in it, because it would be quite self-defeating to let an eurosceptic into the EU comission.
UKIP and the other anti-EU parties accomplish absolutely nothing in the EU parliament and they don't have the intention to, to begin with. They merely take up space in the EU parliament and talk some anti-immigration shit from time to time.
That's also why it is completely retarded to vote a eurosceptic party into the EU parliament.
The majority in the EU parliament is christ-democratic and social-democratic.

Basically tabloid newspapers are the British version of American right wing talk radio.

Looking like leave are gonna win, anyone still awake?

Hello Holla Forums. I want socialist EU.

Seems most working-class Labour areas are voting brexit.

Reformist pig.

I think the left has abandoned hope of success through centralization.

Why is either side supposed to be a victory for the left? Both options were terrible for different reasons.

On the up side..
At least now there's less power structure in place to prevent a ground-up reform of the UK, since top-down never worked there. Now we can stop pretending like we can delay start of the collapse of the world economy. Now the EU has one less terrible, horrible state in it.

The financial markets are going to be a shitstorm in the next week. Load up on FAZ if you got a brokerage account before open and thank me later.

Lol

Good, why oppose it?

LOL

Trump isn't going to build a wall you stupid faggot. You sound just as retarded as his stupid supports are. There's no chance he'll recieve enough funding or support to do something like that. Clinton on the other hand , is very likely to start a horrible war or even a nuclear conflict. Clinton is not the lesser of two evils. It's like the choose between getting fucked in the ass by a 20 inch spiked dildo or a baseball bat. Either way you're still getting fucked in the ass by a blunt object. If you're voting for Clinton in the next election you might as well kill yourself because a chump like you shouldn't be breeding.

can someone make a strawpoll to settle this once and for all?

I would like to celebrate the Brexit with my fellow online comrades tbh.