Catholic left

Islam has set political theory.
Christianity has the political theory that serves the elite of the time.

Christianity is fluid. Islam is not.

…

And this is why you should become a Leftist Satanist.

in Islam there is a concept called "the Absence of the need disable the law " that means you can remove the whole political theory of islam because you don't need it anymore

Divide and conquer, comrade!

Nice

Because being reactionary is how the IMO heretical denomination came to be.

Nah, they're not all socdems. We have a distributist on bunkerchan tho.

Any essays on this friendo?

damn it wheelchair porky let me post

Catholicism is definitely the main reason why I am a socialist.
And this goes way back before the Pope Francis meme.
Basically as early as I can remember, I was naturally inclined to support socialism and anti-Zionism. It couldn't have been my parents because they are spooked Republicans. I can only assume it was Jesus Himself.

I'm stealing this.

There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world and the Roman Catholic Church accounts for about 1.27 billion of them. They're by far the largest denomination of Christianity out there in the world, so that's probably why they seem to have the largest amount of leftist followers.

Coincidentally, that's why they also have the largest amount of molestation accusations.

There's a lot more catholics on this board than I realised

It's been a meme for ages fam, prots get ice picked!

Nah I mean like in proportion. So if I meet a prot- more likely to be right wing. Maybe you're not factoring for area in the world also, internet access, time etc.
And yeah, prot priests are found to do that more in proportion as well

nah when communism rise there will be no different between those things under the communist umbrella

any book by ali shariati refers to this Islamic law and all "islamic Legislation " books the best one subjectively is "The wisdom of the legislation and philosophy"

Yeee… And the elites will OBVIOUSLY say "we shall alow the people to change the laws" … KEK!

Christianity is about "love everyone". Anarkidism 101. The gospels don't set politics. They even say "my kingdom is not of this world". The fact that the elites use it how they want, has nothing to do with it. It's all because Paul fucked everything up.

So, it's not what god said, but how it was intepreted.

Well, that's the point.

Islam and Judaism are shit, cause God has set the Ideology.

Christ even went against the rich. When did Mohamed go against the rich?

Still, go for Leftist Satanism. It's the true prol religion

Catholicism is shittu

Protestantism is the superior religion, in fact Calvinism is the greatest religion ever created, and I say this as an atheist.

Aquinas = Dogmatic metaphysician bullshitter

Luther = Kant

Calvin = Hegel

In fact I want to develop in the future something like Calvinist Communism, combined with predestination and everything.

Catholic social teaching is anti-capitalist. Also Dorothy Day and the catholic workers movement.

Psalm 111:10

Get out of here, Porky!

i won't turn this thread about islam
my last post k ?

there is no elites in Islam there is no religious hierarchy in Islam

no you catch this law everywhere in the hadith and ALL jurisprudence books

there were no rich ppl around him
and he literally ==socialized== al Madina El Monawara when he arrived there
look it up by yourself

so yeah bye see ya later boys

wrong flag*

Protestantism is the religion that created Capitalism. But it is also teh religion that creates Communism.

Protestantism emphasis on work that literally grants you access to heaven is the way to Communism.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy are by their nature reactionary because they want to keep the old church hierarchies. Do not be fooled by the "revolutionary stuff", for them it's just a way to increase the power of the church through charity and donations. There is no horizontal social arrangement, it's all a pyramid scheme from top down.

An organized religion, without hierarchy.
I find a non autistic maoist more possible to exist.

A military leader without wealth..
..
Well, on the other hand, people believe in Stalin…

Forgot about this, thanks.

You didn't mention Augustine because you know he BTFO's heretics.
;)
Nah fam, Luther is shit. Kierkegaard woulda made a better catholic.

I admire the prot work ethic, but ideological supermarket etc etc

Well, the Pope is shit anyway, cause he can't never be wrong.

Also. Weber not even once?

Gross.

*when in exercise of his office*
he can't be wrong. If he makes a passing statement on his own terms, he can be.

But…the prot work ethic is really pro-work….

Augustine is basically a reworked neo-platonist (the shittiest version of platonism), there is nothing of value in his writings. All Catholic philosophy is a reworking of speculative ancient greek philosophy and repackaged in dogmatic metaphysics.

Kierkegaard is good, but he is not a theologian, rather he is a subjectivist philosopher. The theory of the subject could never develop in Catholicism due to their emphasis in creating reformed christian speculative systems and the idea of "good acts" (taking away responsibility from the subject). Kant, Hegel, Schelling and Kiekegaard are all philosophers of Protestantism and the subject.

You mean what teh Catholics are currently doing. Explain to me how a church that was the whore of Babylon for nearly 1500 years , now tries to appeal to wealth inequality (literally pikettian reformism) and expects us to trust the Jesuit mafia? There is no revolution for the Catholic church, only more power and influence.

Being anti-work is being anti-communism, Lafargists get out.

The Pope is only a man.
This is the only reason I'll never accept Catholisism. .. I could even accept that the holly spirit doesn't only come from the father… But the Pope is only a man, ALWAYS!.

And why the fuck am I not allowed to drink the blood? I want my bread and wine! Fuck your pills!

We are not born to work. We are born to be free from work. We can achieve paradise. If god exists we have to kill him.

Robots is the only path to communism.

being anti-self enslavement is not being anti work

Pls you're triggering me. He's really cool.

Well, not *really*. He places the individual above the universal, but it's still an inner sphere of the universal. That's what makes faith a paradox for him.

Virtue ethics is cool than deontological ethics, ngl.

Pope is only a man, but he is the messenger of God. Mary was only a woman *shrug*.

Okay slow down there NEETzsche, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Work should not be enslavement, that's the revolutionary aspect of Calvinism.

The protestants revolted against the Catholic feudalistic structure, only to discover the possibilities of Capitalism. When Capitalism finnaly became secular once the bourgeoisie took control of capital it was then when humanity became trapped in another loop. Both in Marx and in Protestantism it is the worker who is the subject of revolution, in the first case to achieve the utopia of communism and in the second to get passage to heaven.

Can you explain this please

BULLSHIT!

The third crusade was a message from God???
And even a Medici AKA Mafia, can be the "messenger of God"???
The Pope was only the continuation of the emperor, cause the west couldn't hold like we in the east did.

That's Bakunin!
And I'm a Leninist, even.
Read a book or something! :^)

Calvinism tells you to WORK for your own salvation.

Catholicism tells you to EXPECT salvation through good acts.

Man as species being is homo faber, a creator, he creates his own world through work. Catholicism and orthodoxy mystifies this relationship, while Protestantism lays it open and tells you, you the worker is the bearer of the holy spirit. In Orthodoxy salvation comes through a form of absurd asceticism (like in Buddhism) and in Catholicism good acts and submission to dogma. All keep the older hierarchies of either feudalism (Catholicism is the land lords religion) or theocracy (in orthodoxy most of the religious authority came from monks).

Protestantism as the bearer of Capitalism is revolutionary, and since communism is the evolution of capitalism it is also a protestant means to achieve salvation (to achieve justice), even though you might as well be already damned. Catholics and Orthodox worshipers could never come up with a revolutionary idea such as predestination.

If capitalist and king must go, so must God, the most diabolical of all tyrants.

That's the problem, you retard.

I'm an anti-communist then tbh

Calm down.

Sorry, haven't read Bakunin.

I'm guessing that's more Bakunin.
Why is God a tyrant?

Ah ok, no need to be rude.
Well I don't see an issue with being "pro work".

No, that's one way to do it. It's only for those who don't like to be part of society, or build their own society to be closer to God. There is no "you have to go to a cave and feed off grasshoppers to go to heaven". All you need to do is love your neighbor and confess your sins from time to time. Just like in Catholicism. only in Orthodoxy, lower priests can marry

WHAT?
So, orthodoxy and Catholicism are shit, cause they remain feudal, BUT PROTESTANTISM will SUDDENLY go FULLCOMMUNISM!
WHAT?

Orthodoxy and Catholicism don't care about socioeconomics. They care about making people feel better about themselves.

unless they care about socioeconomics and become the servants of kings and so on. And this is why organized religion is shit

And to top it all,
Yes, we create, but work is not about "producing more and more or you're a bad person". You CREATE because you are bored.
WORK =/= CREATION.
Work is BORING!

The factory worker is "creating"? In the assembly line? KEK!

Calvinism is what Capitalism is based uppon. You cannot use the foundation of the system to destroy the system. You have to also destroy the foundation.

Do you even Weber?

Communism is about the abolition of work.
In FullCommunism you only work either when it's necessary or when you want to.

Neither have I tbqh :^)

The majority of muslims hate communism. Shariah law is extremely conservative. You're a shitty muslim. Blow yourself up bro.

ITT: Rebel being full of shit as usual

He has a set of rules we must follow, regardless of wether it is your will or not and if we don't he will allow you to be tortured forever.

So obidience or eternal torture.
That is coercion even worse than the one we face from the bourgeoisie.

it is ok bro god is doing it ironically
you don't understand

youtube.com/watch?v=a5yoqjABeBM

Best philosopher ever.

Implying that anyone has a duty to anyone inherently.

Provided you want the relationship to God.

If your will is to have a relationship to God you will follow them and therefore it is now your will to do so. You cannot have your cake and eat it as well.

Do you get bored of being a whiny little bitch? We could just get along, but you're here being a faggot as usual, user.

Everything you wrote in that paragraph is wrong. Ever since hesychasm became orthodox dogma since the Byzantine times , the monks gained all the religious power, the dogma then became to emphasize becoming "Christ-like" ( like Alexei is in brothers kramazov). And all protestant clergy can marry, unlike the orthodox where everything higher than a priest cannot.

A religion is a direct mirror of how society structures itself, it is the principal ideology that creates the social subject.

Only an idiot who hasn't read Marx would say that, of course teh factory worker creates, he creates goods that are made into commodities. The worker uses capital to create, whereas the capitalists manages it to to extract value from the worker.

Capitalism is the greatest revolution in the history of mankind. Communism is the evolution of Capitalism, you do not destroy Capital, the workers simply rise up and realize their original relationship with it, by taking the means of production from the capitalist.

Of course I have read him. Have you? Because nothing of what he says disagrees with what I am saying. Namely that Protestantism freed the relationship the worker has with employment.

Well, the bourgeoisie has no duty not to let us starve. They just not taking an action. Therefore there is no coercion what-so-ever!
Capitalism is okay you guys!

Much like I have never seen anyone geniuniely want to be everything that Frenchness entails, I could not imagine a person whose will is the exact same as God's in every way.
Thus following the will of God will always be a denial of your own will, and if you don't do it you will burn forever.

No, the bourgeoisie are taking an action by exploiting the labour of workers. This is the entire basis of capitalism - private property.

And again, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
The very fact of your being in the world necessitates a denial of some portion of your will. E.G., I want to play vidya, but I don't want to starve more. The 2 are in conflict. Must give up my vidya playing to not starve. Rational self interest in a nutshell.

Oh yes, but it was the proles will to have a relationship with the bourgeoisie and thus chose that.

I mean the other option was to starve, but there was no coercion involved.

When I say "Will" i don't mean what you want right now, I mean the very nature of your being.

Do you like to drink and fuck and eat shrimp? Too bad, you will burn if you want to express yourself at any point.

Are you trying to imply the "bourgeoisie are job creators" meme?

And this is where the problem is. I'm not an essentialist.

No, I am trying to imply that obeying the will of God is as much of a free choice as wage-labour is and thus equally justified.

If the Boss is a tyrant, so is God.

You don't believe there is a beast inside you that has a Will independently of what you want?
You must be an angsty being.

Hey rebel, why shill for a "Christian left" rather than the left in general. Obviously we should accept any leftist but how can it possibly be better than aethestic left?

Will Christian socialists forcibly convert me? This is my main concern.

Are you accepting of !Muslim/Buddhism/etc commies?

But they simply aren't the same. You keep saying these things are equivalent - I do not accept this. Whereas the bourgeoisie create the corruption and destroy the good, I don't accept this notion that God does the same.

God has no duty to us, if we are his property. If you are a Stirnerite, which I am, there is no issue in this idea. The will to power is not a bad thing. What are you going to do?
"Love is a violent act". It is beyond good and evil.

No. Again you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either there's a pre-made essence, and morals are objective, or there's no pre-made essence and things are subjective except purely for individual will.

Well you wouldn't want the sort of "Opium of the masses" style anti-religion leftism if you're a christian would you? It would be a kind of "let's bring leftism into the church" thing.

Atheists don't really have leverage over the church.

I wouldn't forcibly convert you. I'm accepting of all the other commies so long as they aren't trying to impose their religions on me.

This is what atheists actually believe.

Pick one, nigger.

Oh come on. Don't be silly.

this tbh. I'm disappointed in you guys. I expected fewer empty platitudes from the people here, you're generally all pretty cool.

Neither do slave-owners. Are you fine with chattel-slavery?
The fact is that you can choose to obey and bown down to a will that is not your own, or there are dire (in the case, eternal) consequences.
Beyond that, God is simply a spiteful evil being that allows huge amounts of suffering even though he could snap his fingers and make it go away. Either he's a sociapath or a sadist. In this sense, God is much worse than the bourgeoisie, in that the bourgeoisie don't have the option of not exploiting us and letting us starve.

God does.

I didn't say "human nature", pay attention. I said your nature. Nothing universal or objective about it.

OK, I was raised shia Muslim, would you object to me "bringing leftism into the mosque".

Come on dude.

You're still acting like he has a duty to end it. Suffering can be a learning process.

Pls explain how.

No, I would love that.

You're claiming an ideology that was literally written by Catholic Tories in a desperate attempt to distract the masses from the growing power of the British socialist movement is leftist.
Rebel has total craniorectal inversion, everyone!

Really? I guess I've wrongly hated you all this time yet. I'm sorry.

I've had decent success with it thus far, and I was able to convince everyone at my mosque to vote Bernie, and had the religious leader officially endorse him.

I'm not religious though, more like a cultural shia rather than one who really believes

Power doesn't mean "you have to be a monk to go to heaven.

It was, but then we killed god.
And that is why I said that organized relegion is shit.

Yes, but he becomes alienated from his creation. This is what capitalism does. And Calvinism only tells he "work more to go to heaven".
But, if you are alieanated, what does it matter how much you work? You no longer express yourself createvly. You only do what you are ordered to do. You are cut off from heaven.

No, that was the agrarian.

Only if Capitalism is the evolution of Feudalism.
it's a revolution and so is socialism. Not Evolution, REvolution.

We have the means of production. We ARE the means of production. The means of production evolve. From Slaves to Land to Capital to the workers themselves. We DO need to destroy Capital.

No it hasn't.
Calvinism ensured the enslavment of man to capitalism. You have to work more and more, or you'll never go to heaven.

Well.. NO! I DON'T! I only have to work as much as needed to keep having access to goods. No more, no less.

Anyway, point is, religions served their cause. It was to ease the pain of man. We no longer need them. We can live without pain. We can live free.

No worries comfriend

Well you define to me what you think leftism is, and then we'll discuss whether it's leftist, because I consider leftism to be an arbitrary statement about the state of politics at a time period.

If you wanna define leftism as the pro-workers owning means of production alone (which is pretty divisive honestly), I think you could still make *some* case to say it's leftist.

You should really also consider not taking yourself so seriously, tbh.

If he can end it but chooses not to, he is a much more wicked being than I am.
None of his changes for a second that we're posed with the ultimatum that we must either obey him of face torture.
That is the mark of a tyrant.

He has no duty to end it, but if he doesn't then he is wicked and a tyrant and it is our duty to overthrow him.

The same way a slave-owner does his slaves.
If he can own us and rule us just because he created us, then I see him no different from a slave-owner. Indeed, he's worse. A slave-owner would kill me. God would do something a trillion times worse.

Would you like to learn about our comrade and libarator, Lucifer?

You mean God's servant and jail-warden?

No, I mean the original revolutionary who dared to question God's role in the creation, where angels did all the work.

And then the counter-revolutionary classcuck angels under Michael betrayed the revolution and Lucifer was sent to hell.

The rest is God's capitalist propaganda.

and this is how you make a religion

You don't really seem to know anything about theology aside from strawmen atheistic versions of what God is. Furthermore, it just seems like you have a principled stance against God, whether or not he exists which is extremely edgy. Bravo.

no plz comeback
i think Islam reltion with the left is more interesting than the christian left

Yes it does,for orthodox people at least, they glorify suffering and asceticism. It's a mystical version of Catholicism.

No one cares what you think.

If you don't work you lose the primary quality as creator, alienation is a completely different topic that's not even relevant here. And calvinism tells you to liberate work from suffering. Work is good and sets you free, which is essentially right, that's the original insight of Marx, both workers in Marx and in Calvin work for their salvation. That the Capitalist sucks off the value from the worker is just another form of domination of work from masters, the same way the Catholic church was in medieval feudalism.

Agrarian revolution isn't that revolutionary, lots of civilizations achieved it independently from each other. Capitalism arose only in protestant Europe however.

Literally babies first understanding of Marx. The worker does not have the means of production the capitalists owns them. That's the problem, it doesn't matter if they evolve, the problem is that the workers original relation to work is twisted and perverted. The workers will not destroy capital, in that they will destroy their means of work, but they will abolish the capitalist mode of exchange.

The point is, that you will need to work, work in communism is decided by the needs of the many, not of just your own. Calvinism here would mean to work for Communism even if you beleive it will never happen (you are damned), it is revolutionary fideism. The needs will not be decided by you, but by the whole of the proletariat. Liberation from work is impossible, since one who does not work is himself not free. The worker forges his own destiny, the servant merely serves the wishes of the master.

Why? What is the point. It is obvious that, having been cause talking shit, you're simply going to claim your definition of leftism is different and thus you couldn't possibly be wrong.

It doesn't matter how any of us define "leftism", it is categorically not ideologies cooked up by the ruling elite to preserve their power and control of the pre-existing system.

Do you want to get back to preening your ego, now?

No, I am saying that ESPECIALLY if he is real, we must oppose his "right" to rule us.

If he is real, then like the bourgeoisie, we must burn down his house and kill his servants.

You're still implying he has a duty to.

Again, can't have your cake and eat it.

Devil is a symbol.

This tbh

No, I'm not going to claim my definition is different. I'm literally not going to disagree with your definition, no matter what it is. If you define leftism as eating babies, I'll accept it. Because I don't care about definitions.

Are you still salty about the pomo "argument" we had yesterday where you refused to even define pomo? You're talking just like the guy who did that, so forgive me if you're not him.

Bleurgh.

Oh please, get over yourself.

...

It's called will to power, fam.

Am a fucking orthodox (on paper, gave up on it since 14), and no we don't. It is only ONE WAY to achieve salvation. Not more or less important than it is in Catholicism.

In fact, the whole "suffering VS life" thing has always been a controversy, at least in Greek Orthodoxy.

Writing to you now is work. I am creating. Labor is different. And no, we work because we have to in order at some point NOT to have to! And Alienation has everything to do with it, as Calvinism never addresses it as an issue. neither does any religion, or they would not serve the status quo

But if we distroy the capitalist mode, we destroy Capital as means of production. It evolves and is no longer Capital!

Then automation is evil and the Luddites were correct? Wut???
Socialism isn't Communism. In Communism you work out of choice. Not out of need. Communism is fullAutomation.

From my ethics at least.
But notice how every argument you use to defend him can equally apply to kings or the bourgeoisie, as it so often has. "Will to Power" is something the bourgeoisie and nobles have as well.

He imposes his will over me. He coerces me to obey him or face a fate much worse than death.
Thus he is a tyrant and I must depose him.

What talks about is the Bakunin we both don't read.

Even if god exists, we must overthrow him.

Oh, and, I prefer the symbol of the Devil. Even a Leninist can see that.. .. No, we don't need God. We need to rise against him.

Then again, religion is outdated ideology.

No, I don't accept that it applies to those, and you know I don't. The bourgeoisie and nobles use institutional power structures- it's will to power by an abstract concept and must be destroyed.

What are you planning to do to "depose" him? You gonna take off the mask?

Yes, you are. This is exactly what continental philosophers do, quibble over semantics rather than engage with the argument.

Grade A argument.

Like the Catholic Church? Christ's Vicar on earth am I right?

Like I would depose the bourgeoisie:

Burn down his house, kill hus servants, forever forbid him to sieze power ever again, burn his books and let his name be forgotten.

NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL EDGY!

...

Bitch!
I only mention Bakunin in terms of relegion. I ain't no anarkid! even if most of my friends are
I can never go full Individualism, as I need a leader and a community.
Lenin, you know Lenin?

But, ye… the Che-Leninhat-Tankie guy.

Just end my life tbh.

We need to use spooks, if it means turning people to our side!

You should know this, comrade!

That is literally what howard scott says needs to be done to get people on the side of technocracy.

We should really not be on his level at any time.

Can we despook them soon enough to make the revolution viable?

I think we cannot, and thus should use the sides of religion that agree with us to promote the revolution.

look i will stay religious until someone prove that infinite regressing is possible

Xexizy please stop shitposting.

An argument that bases itself off misrepresentation and assumption of its premises does not deserve a good argument in response.

Read Kierkegaard, the bible and Zizek pls :DDD

Kek'd.

Come on man, you don't really expect me to take this seriously when you're doing this whole hotshot thing do you?

The "Catholic Left" is shit.

With their moralistic view of socialism, almost utopian, they threw Labor Unions under the bus. We don't need any kind of worker organization, we just need to have empathy.

Complete lack of any theory, plan, objective or even social organization.

When in positions of power they always turn to their Neo-Liberal overlords for "advice".

t. Brazil

I'm catholic yeh abortion etc is still stuck in stone age but recognising Palestine, being mainly pro refugee to EU are good points

...

You are confusing the Catholic Left with the Church. The Catholic Left died in Brazil due to the Church killing it(muh ebul gommies) and taking more reactionary stance.
Also:

Choose one and only one.

I'm ideologically conflicted, don't judge me.

Oh geez, they trully are a Workers Party. We only need to forget what Lula and Dilma did.

And yet another coup were the "left" stands with the imperialist.

lmao this is the left we have today.

Have you even read Marx? Religion is the only thing that can ease the pain of alienation in Capitalism, heart in heartless world and all that. Christianity is the closest idea to communism because of the idea of freeing yourself from the lie that you don't have responsibility and working for your salvation.

Anyone who doesn't work in communism is a parasite. Communism is for the proleteriat, and full automation will not end work. That's just a meme spread by stupid anarchokidies that never read any Marxist lit.

You mean: hypocrite.

Oh, it's like that? Well shit, okay, I was making a joke but if you wanna be a dickhead about it.

The Kierkegaardian conception of faith is entirely individualistic- the entire premise of faith is the paradox that the individual lies above the universal. It's about the personal relationship for Kierkegaard as opposed to any deontological ethics- the religious individual, in understanding themselves, must transcend ethics.

Hence there is no fixed idea of faith under Kierkegaardian philosophy, or postmodern theology in general and so it's not a spook and so you can suck my dick frankly

What happens if I do not follow the word of the bible?
Hell? Then he is is nothing but a tyrant. Nothing? Then why follow him at all?
Is he almighty? Then why is there suffering if he isn't a sociopathic and cruel god? Is he not almighty? Then how is he a god? Is the church his legitimate messagers on earth? Then he is a God of Murder, subjugation and ignorance? If it is not, what else did it lie about? How am I supposed to know that the bible is true at all, and if I cannot know for sure why bend my will to it?

I expect you to take me seriously because you ask people to bow down to what is either a tyrant or a God that doesn't exist.

No gods. No masters.

The only illumination that can be found in a church is when it is set on fire.

BRB, stapling my ribcage shut

Come on fam.

AAAND IT'S TIME FOR OUR DAILY QUIZ
YOUR QUESTION IS…
WHAT IS THIS POST NOT:

A) AN ARGUMENT
B) AN ARGUMENT
C) kill yourself

Of course it's not an argument. What would be the point in arguing with you? Faith denies reason.

It doesn't deny it, but it feels no reason to reconcile it.

Which is why you're making preposterous statements.

You could always just drop the platitudes and have a normal fucking conversation

...

Jesus believed in charity not government enforced poverty. If you give all your money because you are told to it is not of the holy spirit.

Much like the capitalist isn't responsible for anyone starving and thus bowing down to him totally legitimate and voluntary?

Why is the rule of a king illegitimate if the rule of a God is? How do you legitimately solve the problem of evil and if the church is illegitimate how do you know it produced something legitimate?

And by the way, yes he is.
He's the one who decided to create hell and decided that anyone who doesn't bow down to him is going there.

There is no mention of hell, the bible refers to sheol, a dark place away from gods light. Meaning you denied god and purposely led yourself into eternal darkness devoid of any life. Makes a lot of sense to me.

A church can only be emancipatory by ignoring its actual doctrine. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it sets precedents for a rapid, unpreventable return to muh tradishun.

Where you are concerned, you're not capable and I'm not interested.

Will to power tbh

Don't Christian theologicians overwhelmingly condone pacifism and passive acceptance of the status quo?

Islam can be barbaric, but being a massive puss isn't much better.

If you don't think the Bourgeoisie have Will to Power, either you don't understand the concept, or you're ignoring figures like Frick, Carnigie and Rockefeller.

Having will to power doesn't legitimise your rule. Cesare Borgia was practically made of will to power, but I would not have abolished him too?

And God created that darkness by allowing it when he doesn't have to. This darkness is just another version of hell a tool of coercion

Pacifism idk about, but if it's about passive acceptance of the status quo, I think I can refer to you to a few theologians who don't do that.

Primarily my favourite is Alasdair Maclntyre, ex-marxist who is still an anti-capitalist. Wrote "Marxism and christianity" whilst still a marxist.

I don't think pacifism is being a puss. I think all ideology is being a puss personally but hey.

Even worse. Christianity makes a virtue out of being poor and oppressed, thus legitimizing one man's rule over another.

Will to shitpost tbh

Fair enough, but in Christianity, the majority consensus still matters because the Catholic Church is the same contiguous governing body it was two thousand years ago. Protestants and god knows Mormons will just make up whatever sounds nice–Calvinism's effect on Western culture is an aberration.

It'd actually be nice if that were true. Unfortunately, human psychology is itself a material condition that is easily warped by the superstructure, which can make people act like total nutcases despite a lack of inherent mental inability.

Render unto Caesar and all that. Egh. The only good monarch is a dead one.

And so Holla Forums got a helicopter ride and blamed everyone but themselves

On a related note I want to get into thomism/scholasticism, rec me books.

That's why we gots to revive the catholic left famalam. Get leverage n stuff.

Very true tbh, this is leftypol mentality nowadays.

And so Holla Forums got a helicopter ride and blamed everyone but themselves

Sorry forgot to answer this part. Chesterton and Aquinas.

...

Look, you wanna think there is a big man in the sky? Go on.
I solved it by the "universe is a simulation, we have no control, we can never have, it doesn't matter" way of thinking about it.

Point is, are you ready to leave some of the relegion's earthmade BS behind? Or do you need to reform what socialism is about to make it fit your ideology/religion?

Catholic left reading thread?!?!?

What autistic mod deleted my posts, wtf???

let's do it user.

Your post reeks of arrogance tbh

We get called the "regressive left" and "cucks" for suggesting that people of a certain religious group might not necessarily be a gaggle of brainwashed savages, then we get called "fedoras" as soon as we concede.

I give up on religious discussion.

This argument is incomparable, christians will have no problem abolishing class relations unlike nazis

Already into Chesterton

i don't understand your argument
Please meme less

I'm sure you were an elitist beforehand anyway.

No, actually, I wanted to put personal faith aside and unite people under a common cause.

Now I think the tankies might have a point for once.

Might be because I've long given up on religion.

Religion is fine. Just don't put it over reality.

You know you'd have to make the thread right?

The post said "Strass-cucks" obviously refering to Str.asseritsts.

Who also have no problem abolishing class relations, but still want domination in another form.

What makes Christianity and Catholicism individualistic, exactly? One of the main appeals to Socialism, for me, is its individualistic nature. There certainly seems to be an argument going on in this thread about whether or not the Catholic Church is individualistic, but I haven't seen a single point raised for or against.

So, what exactly makes being a Catholic individualistic?

Tbh I don't think Catholicism is very individualistic at all. Which is why i find it odd that Rebel spends so much time talking about Stirner. Or maybe its just because Stirner is a meme.

Christianity, at each core is pure socialism.
We are a community but everyone is carving hisown path to salvation.

Catholicism.. … I don't know… I see it too much as State.

*it's core.

I need sleep

The following verses from the Bible hardly seem to be very individualistic:

Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Exodus 21:20
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

AKA Christianity is purely about the afterlife. It has nothing to do with States and Politics.

We have the new testament to fix the BS of the old. Judaism like islam is more of a law than a relegion.

Then again, organized religion is always shit.

So wouldn't that make "Christian Socialism" an oxymoron?

ORGANIZED religion is shit.
Using Christian principles, like "the rich can't go to heaven" can be A-OK to explain socialism to religious people.

I read one interpretation that was basically that Jesus was ironically making a parallel. That because the Roman coins had Caesar's face on it that it belonged to Caesar, but that we ourselves are made in the image of God. As far as I can tell its a:" the tax collectors can have your money but you're worth more than that" type of thing.

One commentator suggested that Jesus was even being skeptical of state power. But this is probably a stretch.

No. It promotes pauperism and working-class as an identity.
It's too similar to MLism in this way. You absolutely cannot glorify poverty and Christians always have done and expect it to turn into something revolutionary.

He was more of a reformist.
"The temple is for god, not commerce".
"We are to make bad people good, not only praise good people for being good"
"looking good but being bad makes you worse than those that are bad".

And then he started meshing up with the power structures and they offed him.

Well, I'm not an anarchist and so on, so am ok with 2 steps forward 1 step back.

Name one time identity politics helped the left.

ID pol is 3 steps back!

Ooooh! You mean religion is ID pol!

Naah! Religion is "I can't deal with the absurd, better have a big man in the sky waiting for me"

My point exactly.
If you turn "working class" into an identity, then we're fucked from the very beginning.

Anarchist, Leninist etc are ideologies. Not identities.

That is acceptable

spirituality and material reality are separate things, no need to think further beyond about it

I know about strass-er-ist doctrine and how auticracy contradicts worker's ownership of the meas of production.

Not what I said.

If you turn working and being poor into a virtue and the indulgences of the rich into a sin, then there is no emancipation for the working class.

It's not being poor that is a virtue. It's being rich that does not allow you to live with virtue.

You don't "romantisize" poorness. You only demonize richness.

You can be middle. Neither poor nor rich.

Being poor isn't a virtue, so you're already off to a bad start.

That is almost the same thing.
To demonize the indulgences of the rich means that we can never grasp them and make them our own, and in some senses, it certainly is making a in group out of those with almost nothing and making and out group of those with a lot.

Now convince me that indentitarianism leans itself towards logical moderation, and this would not be as big a deal as it totally is.

Christianity will do as it has always done, to idolize the meekness itself and aloow people to be dominated.

For all this hate of christian left around here i can see them leading the next revolution before any other ideology

K

OK.

Magnificence is a virtue tho.

Islamic inspired left is still religious left
no only like 80% of them

The Kurds are hardly an example of the "Islamic-inspired" Left, one of their main propaganda points is that they're a secular society.

you know they are not just kurds right ? they have huge non kurds force
mainly Arabs Turks and Persians
+ they are secular islamic society still religious left

where is non religious left these days tell ?

tell me *

When you have declared something a sin, it's pretty hard to declare it acceptable in moderation.

Kurds are not Muslims, though.
The "with them" part does not make them Muslims.

And if secular Islam is like secular christiniaty. … well … it's rather irrelavant!

You are rich when you exploit the poor. Not when you have a PC or something!

dude i lived with them they are
that is my point there is no different between the types of the religious left

you didn't answer me though
where is non religious left ? what is there project ?

Being rich is not the same as exploiting others.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about with turning class into an identity!

Is this Rebel? Don't go Catholic, reform like a bro here.

Reminder that socialist christian societies were all prot!

I don't know a lot of shit about Christianity
but i know that Catholics are fucked by the religious hierarchy and clerical-ship

...

Your oaths have been declared void by this mystic meme, the oathbreaker, cleverly hidden in your own post! You, dear shill, are now free from any oaths you may have sworn to your employers/illuminati/NWO/aliens/etc. Stop your shilling! Repent and turn from your ways, and speak the truth!

You can ally yourself with a group while criticising its aspects user. We just think it's childish that people will derail a thread because

As an Orthodox Christian it's hard to be a commie when the Church faced so much persecution in Russia. If I were to spout communist talking points at coffee hour I'd probably get a lot of dirty looks. We are ultra-traditionalists but tend to be lefty on things like protecting the planet, the sick and the poor, and that makes it hard to reconcile capitalism. We don't really fit in anywhere. In our perfect world it would be a restoration of monarchy with a classical socialist sort of bent.

I'm this poster:

I wouldn't personally be annoyed by you posting about Kierkegaard, I intend to read him eventually. I don't really see any explanation in this thread that satisfies my question, though.

Orthodox here.Yes.I agree.

The Church in Russia has gone full Capitalism, though.

I mean, sure, the Greek Orthodox Church is shit too, is full bourgie, since it has land because of ottoman empire and is mostly excempted from taxation..

But in Russia it's a full on buissness.

Organized Relegion has been corrupted as fuck, again.
Also, you can have orthodoxy without monarchy.

So tell me friends, where would a young Catholic who is interested in Socialism and the left but very firm in his belief start with all of this?

I'm an Ex-Catholic and I live with mom who is one.
I don't know what you're talking about.
Most Catholics, in the U.S. at least, are very skeptical of things that sound vaguely socialist. I'm hoping that will change now that the pope seems at least ambivalent towards things like liberation theology. Ratzinger was absolutely garbage when it came to that topic.

literally read zizek

I would start with some basic Catholic philosophy. I really want to start a reading thread.

Oops. As for an actual recommendation, Pope John Paul 2's encyclical "centesimus annus" is interesting in its criticism of neoliberal capitalism.

fuck off nihilism

I don't know a lot about the US but I can explain why that is here in the UK

I live in Scotland and was brought up in a massive catholic family. I went to catholic school too. Here in Scotland identifying as catholic is a lot more cultural than religious. I would say 95% of UK born Catholics have Irish ancestry. My mum was Irish (my dad was half) and nearly everyone at my school was at least 15% Irish.

A lot of Irish who came to Scotland in those times faced heavy discrimination and were extremely poor. Most Irish people worked in the jobs that other British people didn't want to do. My grandfather was incredibly smart and was granted a scholarship to a grammar school, but because he had to support his family he became a miner for the rest of his life.

Basically a lot of the Irish did all the really shit work and realised how fucked capitalism is. And because most Irish people are Catholic, that's why most Catholics here are leftists. My friend is from an old mining town (compromised by mostly catholics) which is responsible for electing Britain's ONLY ever communist MP.

What? It has always been there at least since that French priest guy Mersenne being the big boss of Pascal and Descartes. Also, the Jesuits were often at odds with other orders because of their 'innovative' proselytism.

It probably went as far back as Paul of Tarsus, a popular target to be blamed for corrupting Christianity.

The thread just got 10 posts longer

Most people in the U.S. still have the red scare.

It's in Latin America that Socialism and Catholicism got combined. And that's why the current Pope is so "proggresive" and for the people.

reminder that secularism is a heresy and is liberalism.

also, reminder that the only answer is a religious socialist regime

But ONLY Christian socialism right?

Viva clericosocialism my dudes

hmm. yes, but with a non-secular (but pluralist) public space

hell yes

This is where I'm gonna say you're full of bullshit

lol ok
enjoy being a liberal

All hail the catholic clericosocialist confessional state